From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #154 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Saturday, April 27 2002 Volume 02 : Number 154 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic [jenny grover ] Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic ["me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic Aaron Milenski wrote: > > Sorry this thread has goen on so long. I won't say any more about Cobain > except that I'm always going to think of "Rape Me" as an insensitive and > incredibly narrow minded song. If being a star was so horrible, why not > just stop recording his music and get out of the public eye? Well, that's the perrennial, unanswered question and perhaps at the root of his tragic end. But "Rape Me" isn't just about being a rock star. It was about feeling let down by a trusted friend. Unfortunately for Kurt, the trusted friend in question was likely right about what she said and did, but it got taken wrong, or hit too close to home, or perhaps she wasn't diplomatic enough. Sad to see her having to deal with another one now. Yes, I'm talking about Susan Silver, who is rumored to now be faced with burying Layne because no one in his family will step forward to do so. > There's no doubt that much punk, or British punk at least, came from a sense > of hopelessness. The Clash's "Career Opportunities" is a perfect example of > what you say about powerlessness to affect change. Nonetheless, I see > something much more self-affirming about lyrics that address wide-ranging > political and social injustice than merely personal issues. I think the Clash were very good about that, but I think after a while people started hearing the distance in that approach, as well as philosophies that might have been too far left for them to accept whole-heartedly, and that's why the first person voice came to take on power. > I'm not arguing > that lyrics about personal issues can't be more affecting to specific > listeners, and in fact think that much of the most emotionally powerful art > of any type is that which provokes an "I feel exactly the same way" response > in the listener/viewer/reader. It may even be seen as uplifting to some. And indeed it is, or at least it has the effect of making the individual feel less isolated. > But even the bleakest early punk had an (admittedly fated to fail) spirit of > "we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore" rather than "I'm > going to wallow in my own misery and you're all welcome to join me." I think that wallowing in misery isn't really the point of that music either, and there is a lot of humor in some of those songs, as well. I'm not sure exactly whose lyrics or what songs in specific you are thinking of, but I think crying can be as cathartic as having an angry outburst, and sometimes does less damage in the process. But as I said, or tried to, in an earlier post, I think people got tired of the political aspects of punk, or at least some people did. I think the same thing happened with 60's music. The love revolution, the commune ideals, the thinking that if everyone did drugs there would be no more hate- well, it was fun for a while but it wore thin, especially when it seemed like it wasn't really going to happen after all. The 70's pop culture got more "me" focused, and that, of course, got take to ridiculous excess, which caused the punk backlash. And so things go, round and round. We're getting back to the party-hearty phase in popular music right now, so don't be surprised if things start taking on global tones again, especially with the War on Terrorism. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:12:32 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic you: >bah. so if i use a metaphor of VeriSign sodomizing my company, am i >encouraging the recently exposed rash of priestly pedophilia? No, I see Aaron's point - just that it's lamely narcissistic, or in bad taste at best, for Cobain to equate his unhappiness with how his quest for musical recognition turned out with rape, rape being something women never asked for and that only happen because the female of our species got kind of a raw deal biologically (not as physically powerful as men, and on the receiving end of intercourse, etc.). And you say "encouraging" which was NEVER part of Aaron's complaint. You could say John Lennon in Ballad of John & Yoko ("they're gonna crucify me") started this trend of narcissistic whining about fame with inappropriate suffering imagery, but he might get away with it because he seems to be mocking himself a bit, while Kurt doesn't. >> If being a star was so horrible, why not >> just stop recording his music and get out of the public eye? > >uh, he did. that was the part about the dying. I think Aaron meant to get out, just leave, without all the narcissistic drama of blowing one's head off (and leaving your infant daughter to be raised by Courtney Love). >so should we ban all recordings except ones that sign about how to be nice >and happy and constructive in your life Again - "ban?" When did Aaron say or even suggest that? I don't think you fairly engage or consider the nuance of Aaron's point here. He's certainly not promoting happy smiley face culture. JS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 20:31:11 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: [loud-fans] Papa Nez CDs If there are any Nesmith fans here other than Stewart and me, today at J&R Music I found something I've been wishing for for awhile - his first six solo albums re-released on three two-fer CDs. They're on German BMG/Camden, a la the excellent recent Nilsson reish's, sound great, nice booklets, and only cost me 10 bucks each. Stewart, did you know about these? I really needed these because my vinyl copies on Pacific Arts are mostly poor-sounding pressings....in fact, my copy of AND THE HITS JUST KEEP ON COMIN', bizarrely, comprises *two Side Two's*! I'd never heard most of Side One 'till tonight! Yee haw. These are beautiful if idiosyncratic records, and any serious fans of either No Depression or Los Monos owe it to themselves. Or if you just appreciate hot pedal steel - Red Rhodes was truly inspired at the time. Listen to the band, JS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:41:46 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic this is going to be a bit disjointed, as i'm awake more or less only due to caffeine.... > No, I see Aaron's point - just that it's lamely narcissistic, or in bad > taste at best, for Cobain to equate his unhappiness with how his quest for > musical recognition turned out with rape, rape being something women never > asked for and that only happen because the female of our species got kind of i understand what was being said - i just think it's a bit over-touchy. but, put with the explanation of "how *his quest* for musical recognition turned out with rape", what you guys are saying makes a bit more sense to me. i'm not saying that it's a good thing to take something like rape lightly, i'm just sensitive to the fact that treating something in such a way as makes it unapproachable is never constructive, in my opinion. and i guess i translated the song differently - more on the lines of not having really been looking for fame, and not really liking having to deal with it. And you say "encouraging" which was > NEVER part of Aaron's complaint. You could say John Lennon in Ballad of > John & Yoko ("they're gonna crucify me") started this trend of narcissistic > whining about fame with inappropriate suffering imagery, but he might get > away with it because he seems to be mocking himself a bit, while Kurt > doesn't. hm. well, i always found that kind of thing (the kind that's meant to be sincere self-deprecating or self-destructive whining, or just general whining with no sense of humour about it) annoying. which means i'm not much of a cobain fan to start with. (not all his stuff does it, but most of what i heard from him early on was enough to turn me off to the point where i never bothered with the rest of it.) (one should note, here, that i am a fan of peter murphy, depeche mode, etc. who are generally thought of as pretty darn whiny, but they usually do it with humor, or at least they are generally bemoaning a loss [real or part of the lyrics], as opposed to just be-moaning.) > >> If being a star was so horrible, why not > >> just stop recording his music and get out of the public eye? > > > >uh, he did. that was the part about the dying. > > I think Aaron meant to get out, just leave, without all the narcissistic > drama of blowing one's head off (and leaving your infant daughter to be > raised by Courtney Love). yes, and for that i think of him as one of the more (most?) selfish, screwed up pieces of excrement of our day. and since he was very much in the public eye, and a huge influence on the high-school age group when he offed himself in, he was that much more of a shitbag for setting a horrible example. people commit suicide all the time - i have no probelm with that. but anyone who is that much of a role model/icon for that sort of an age group (and he was overly aware of his standing) and chooses to set an example that says, 'hey! here's a good way out!', well, they're irresponsible. i understand the dichotomy here. he wanted to lose the responsibility/problems/whatever of fame, and thought he'd be stuck with it forever (?!?), or couldn't take it any longer, adn apparently believed that his only escape hatch was suicide. dude. stop performing. stop recording. move to south dakota. whatever. but don't set that kind of an example when it's going to get turned into a martyr-of-music sort of image. > >so should we ban all recordings except ones that sign about how to be nice > >and happy and constructive in your life > > Again - "ban?" When did Aaron say or even suggest that? I don't think you > fairly engage or consider the nuance of Aaron's point here. He's certainly > not promoting happy smiley face culture. i probably wasn't doing it justice. honest apologies all around for that. in spite of my intense dislike for the man and his music, i still honestly believe that his choice of lyrics may be valid. he may have felt (or thought that he felt) like he had been raped. maybe the feeling was so intense that that was the only term that really did it justice for him. who knows... brianna - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 21:15:16 EDT From: Cardinal007@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic of Role Models In a message dated 4/26/02 20:47:17, me@justanotherfuckin.com writes: >but > >anyone who is that much of a role model/icon for that sort of an age group > >(and he was overly aware of his standing) and chooses to set an example >that > >says, 'hey! here's a good way out!', well, they're irresponsible. Holy shit -- how could someone who committed suicide be *irresponsible*!?! Can't be ... you@justanotherfuckin.com, I know I'm not alone on this list as a former sufferer of debilitating depression and intended suicide. I've stuck a gun in my mouth, and was very lucky that I was unaware I was not alone. [don't worry, you detractors out there -- the year's young yet] The physical pain of depression, which apparently was outrageously pronounced in Cobain and predated the heights of his celebrity, is incomprehensible until it occurs. At least I couldn't comprehend the notion, because the idea seems incongruous. While its unusual that Cobain's pain was exacerbated by his internal battles with fame (resulting in a suicide note that went so far as to contemplate fans), I can only presume it was fundamentally no different from the pain that drives anyone to suicide. And don't think for a second that suicide is NOT an appropriate and desirable end to continued unremitting depression. And before you jump down my throat, note the words "continued" and "unremitting." Apparently junky rock stars don't surround themselves with folks who can offer any tiny realistic hope of relief. And his suicide was ultimately like so many -- needless and petty. Small. But I doubt he was remotely concerned with being a role model. He was the ultimate Barkley, I guess ...... another incomprehensible missive from Cardinal With one C 007 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:27:23 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic of Role Models hrm. i'm obviously not being very clear. but i DID say "people commit suicide all the time - i have no probelm with that." i think it's sad, and i think it's unforgivable that whether for lack of medical attention or lack of human attention, those people resorted to the ultimate out, but i don't think it is a horrible choice to make, in and of itself. i just wish it hadn't been made by someone with such a huge, easily-influenced following. that being said, this SSRI-medicated attempted-rape survivor (yes, i know there's a huge difference) will hang up her hat on the subject. apologies to any offended (not for the opinions, of course :), but for the annoyance. i'm lucky to not have been to the extent of depression k.c. was at, and sorry to have been to the level C007 hit. it's no fun. i wasn't trying to make light of it. b - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 6:15 PM Subject: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic of Role Models > In a message dated 4/26/02 20:47:17, me@justanotherfuckin.com writes: > > >but > > > >anyone who is that much of a role model/icon for that sort of an age group > > > >(and he was overly aware of his standing) and chooses to set an example > >that > > > >says, 'hey! here's a good way out!', well, they're irresponsible. > > > > > Holy shit -- how could someone who committed suicide be *irresponsible*!?! > Can't be ... > > you@justanotherfuckin.com, I know I'm not alone on this list as a former > sufferer of debilitating depression and intended suicide. I've stuck a gun > in my mouth, and was very lucky that I was unaware I was not alone. [don't > worry, you detractors out there -- the year's young yet] > > The physical pain of depression, which apparently was outrageously pronounced > in Cobain and predated the heights of his celebrity, is incomprehensible > until it occurs. At least I couldn't comprehend the notion, because the idea > seems incongruous. While its unusual that Cobain's pain was exacerbated by > his internal battles with fame (resulting in a suicide note that went so far > as to contemplate fans), I can only presume it was fundamentally no different > from the pain that drives anyone to suicide. > > And don't think for a second that suicide is NOT an appropriate and desirable > end to continued unremitting depression. And before you jump down my throat, > note the words "continued" and "unremitting." Apparently junky rock stars > don't surround themselves with folks who can offer any tiny realistic hope of > relief. And his suicide was ultimately like so many -- needless and petty. > Small. But I doubt he was remotely concerned with being a role model. > > He was the ultimate Barkley, I guess ...... > > > another incomprehensible missive from > Cardinal With one C 007 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:37:33 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic of Role Models At 9:15 PM -0400 4/26/02, Cardinal007@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 4/26/02 20:47:17, me@justanotherfuckin.com writes: > > >but > > > >anyone who is that much of a role model/icon for that sort of an age group > > > >(and he was overly aware of his standing) and chooses to set an example > >that > > > >says, 'hey! here's a good way out!', well, they're irresponsible. > > > > >Holy shit -- how could someone who committed suicide be *irresponsible*!?! >Can't be ... > > you@justanotherfuckin.com, I know I'm not alone on this list as a former >sufferer of debilitating depression and intended suicide. I've stuck a gun >in my mouth, and was very lucky that I was unaware I was not alone. [don't >worry, you detractors out there -- the year's young yet] In other words, it's very easy for any of us to see that a person who commits suicide, or makes a suicidal gesture, had other options. In most cases, they were unable to see that; unless you've been there, you can't know how depression (not momentary sadness) can clog your entire world view and make everything look as if it's turned to shit. Was Cobain narcissistic? Probably. Were his musical achievements overrated as a result of his suicide? Most likely. But looking at his suicide as the result of some kind of moral failure to "snap out of it" misses the point. Matt ADVOCACY JOURNALISM, n. A derogatory term applied to the writings of journalists who openly acknowledge their biases. This despicable form of journalism is to be contrasted with the admirable practice of Unbiased Reporting, practiced by journalists who have no biases, and, indeed, no viewpoint whatsoever on any issue on which they report. Robert Tefton ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 22:30:12 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic me wrote: > > yes, and for that i think of him as one of the more (most?) selfish, screwed > up pieces of excrement of our day. and since he was very much in the public > eye, and a huge influence on the high-school age group when he offed himself > in, he was that much more of a shitbag for setting a horrible example. > people commit suicide all the time - i have no probelm with that. but > anyone who is that much of a role model/icon for that sort of an age group > (and he was overly aware of his standing) and chooses to set an example that > says, 'hey! here's a good way out!', well, they're irresponsible. Oh, pulleeeze... Let's not start that stuff about "role models" and responsibility to the kids. He was a rock musician. He didn't make himself into a role model, and I have no patience or sympathy for people who make icons out of entertainers, be they rock stars or athletes. They are fallible people. Fans need to learn to live their own lives and not copy someone else. But the other point I want to make is this- Kurt had big problems, so big he felt he couldn't live with them, and they extended way beyond any trials of stardom. He was diagnosed manic depressive. He had a painful stomach ailment that the doctors couldn't seem to help much with, and he had an addiction. A person in that combination of circumstances cannot be expected to make well reasoned choices. I don't think Kurt would want anyone to think that suicide is a good way out. And even if he did, that doesn't mean his fans are or should be gullible enough to believe it. Hero worship is a sickness all its own, and I don't think you can blame the object who has been made into the idol. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 00:59:34 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic In a message dated 4/26/02 7:30:05 PM, sleeveless@citynet.net writes of Kurt Cobain: << He had a painful stomach ailment that the doctors couldn't seem to help much with, and he had an addiction. >> As Dave Mustaine nicely noted, "My stomach used to hurt all the time, too...you know, back when I used to do heroin." I also liked what Eric Stumpo of Plan 9 had to say: "My stomach is four times the size of Kurt Cobain's. He didn't know what stomach pain is." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 01:27:57 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] This is no longer close to the topic JRT456@aol.com wrote: > > As Dave Mustaine nicely noted, "My stomach used to hurt all the time, > too...you know, back when I used to do heroin." I also liked what Eric Stumpo > of Plan 9 had to say: "My stomach is four times the size of Kurt Cobain's. He > didn't know what stomach pain is." Kurt maintained that he had the stomach ailment before he did heroin. Whether or not that's true, I don't know. It certainly could be. Jen ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #154 *******************************