From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #106 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Monday, March 18 2002 Volume 02 : Number 106 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeff] Re: [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions ["Joseph M. Mallon"] Re: [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions [Michael Mitton ] RE: [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions [Jeffrey with 2 Fs ] [loud-fans] chat is on ["glenn mcdonald" ] [loud-fans] apropos of nothing... [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions Okay, today's grammatical query runs like this: Is there any reason for the comma in the following phrase? So, it is with some remorse that I read... My take on it is that if the conjunction and the following clause were joined to another clause, there'd be no comma there ("I've been Bob's friend for a long time, so it is with some remorse that I read..."), so there should be no comma when the conjunction begins the sentence. Yet I see it all the time, sometimes in edited prose. What say you, great communal source of wisdom, lo even the photography, oceanography, and geography majors among you? - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Oxygen isn't a text:: __David Robbins__ np: Stars of the Lid _The Tired Sounds of Stars of the Lid_ disc 1 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:04:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > Okay, today's grammatical query runs like this: Is there any reason for > the comma in the following phrase? > > So, it is with some remorse that I read... > > My take on it is that if the conjunction and the following clause were > joined to another clause, there'd be no comma there ("I've been Bob's > friend for a long time, so it is with some remorse that I read..."), so > there should be no comma when the conjunction begins the sentence. It might be better phrased: It is thus with some remorse... especially if it's a new sentence. Conjunctions (of which "so" is one) shuold not be used to begin a snetence, since they join two thoughts. If the thoughts are not joined in one sentence, another (if any) construct is necessary. J. Mallon nr: Junk English - Ken Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:34:29 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions > Okay, today's grammatical query runs like this: Is there any reason for > the comma in the following phrase? > > So, it is with some remorse that I read... I use this all the time in casual writing (emails to friends, or whatever) where the "So" is just a narrative particle that I've put in writing precisely to make the writing look more like speech. The comma goes there because when, um, you put a narrative particle into writing, the comma comes with it. Depending on the circumstances, the reason could simply be to appear informal. Of course, I don't put narrative particles into formal writing. I don't have a problem starting a sentence with a conjuction. But I never use a preposition to end a sentence with. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:39:51 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions > So, it is with some remorse that I read... This is a binding thing. Without the comma, the "so" would be bound strongly to the following clause, weakly to what has gone before; with the comma, it's the reverse. That is, "So it is with some remorse that I read" is "Thus it is with some remorse that I read" (and as Joe notes, this is technically an error, although for informal expressiveness I side enthusiastically with Orson Scott Card in favor of allowing conjunctions to start sentences as a stylistic device), while "So, it is with some remorse that I read" is more like "Given all that, it is with some remorse that I read". The use parallels "However,..." and "Anyway,...". Or, if a math analogy is useful, think of the comma functioning like a set of parentheses. It is most useful (and sometimes even necessary) when the syllogism in question has compound terms on one or both sides. I.e.: A. B. C. So D. but A. B. C, so D. E, so F. So, G. A. B and C. D or E. So, F and G. One of the most interesting variants of this structure is when the "So" appears at the very beginning of a thought, and implicitly brackets the *context* for the discussion to follow, rather than any explicit material. This is what you get in the common conversation-opening use, like "So, what kind of music do you like?" Compare that to "So what kind of music do you like?", which you would only say in the middle of a conversation. Scanning through some of my own writing for examples, I found this particularly stylized one: "So, this is the last issue of this column I will write in my twenties." Here "so" has almost mutated into "Once upon a time", or "Good evening, ladies and gentlemen". Does that help? glenn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 18:48:20 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: [loud-fans] wild speech particles Is anyone up for a chat today, or are you all out getting soused on green beer? Jen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:59:20 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [loud-fans] like so many commas with conjunctions On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, glenn mcdonald wrote: > This is a binding thing. Without the comma, the "so" would be bound etc. Who knew that physics would expand its domain so broadly? > Does that help? Yes. Of course, the sentence I used as an example was...an example, and so might well be better phrased...but that wasn't the point. I'm more suspicious about any "rule" prohibiting conjunctions at the beginnings of sentences, even in formal writing. If I were unlazy (or rather, if I weren't avoiding work by posting to Loudfans), I might find any number of examples (like so many ants, maybe) in several varieties of formal, edited prose. I am confirmed, though, in my suspicion that there was certainly no general rule that I was unaware of *mandating* the comma in all situations. It is, as are most rules, situation-dependent. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::I'M ONLY AS LARGE AS AN ANT AND I'M HIDING INSIDE YOUR CAR:: __cryptic placemat phrase, Madison WI, 1986__ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 19:14:13 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: [loud-fans] chat is on We're on Dalnet. So far "we" is me. But you could change that. glenn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 20:11:51 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] apropos of nothing... (another patented All-Purpose Loudfans Subject Line...) So I was in a restaurant for lunch today, and on the TV screen displaying CNN there was a crawl that mentioned something about a "fierce gun battle," and I found myself questioning that adjective...as in: what exactly would a non-fierce gun battle be like? [Gun Battler 1, as bullet lazily wafts past]: Oh dear, a bullet. I may have to think about returning fire...p'raps next Tuesday? [Gun Battler 2, learning to play the banjo in the interim]: Come and get me, copper. If you'd like, that is - wouldn't want to impose. Adjectives: can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::the popularity of the gruesome FACES OF DEATH video series is ::apparently so great that a children's version is in production, ::to be called FACES OF OWIES. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 18:22:40 -0800 From: Elizabeth Brion Subject: [loud-fans] While we're on the subject of usage... I'm just finishing a book of essays on music ("Like Young," by Francis Davis) which, while generally I've liked it, often uses a manner of phrase that's always vaguely bothered me. One paraphrased example: "He recorded the album in Los Angeles with the pianist Brad Mehldau and the bassist Charlie Haden." Why the "the"? Doesn't "...with pianist Brad Mehldau" make perfect sense? I guess if there were a famous zither player named Brad Mehldau, the distinction might need to be emphasized, but as it is, it's always just made the sentence sound slightly pompous to me. Perhaps some kind soul can explain this to me so it won't keep annoying me every time I see it. Because this guy sometimes lines up six or seven of 'em in a single sentence. - -- Elizabeth ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 21:54:04 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] While we're on the subject of usage... > "He recorded the album in Los Angeles with the pianist Brad > Mehldau and the bassist Charlie Haden." I can imagine justifying the "the"s as a way of indicating that the players are well known for those roles outside the context of this album, but not necessarily well known to the *reader*. Saying "pianist Brad Mehldau" could imply "some guy named Brad Mehldau who happens to play the piano on this one record", when in fact both Mehldau and Haden *are* well-repsected instrumentalists in their own rights. I.e.: "*The* Charlie Haden, the bassist?" "Yes." glenn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:55:34 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [loud-fans] While we're on the subject of usage... On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, glenn mcdonald wrote: > > "He recorded the album in Los Angeles with the pianist Brad > > Mehldau and the bassist Charlie Haden." > > I can imagine justifying the "the"s as a way of indicating that the > players are well known for those roles outside the context of this > album, but not necessarily well known to the *reader*. Saying "pianist > Brad Mehldau" could imply "some guy named Brad Mehldau who happens to > play the piano on this one record", when in fact both Mehldau and Haden > *are* well-repsected instrumentalists in their own rights. I.e.: "*The* > Charlie Haden, the bassist?" "Yes." Makes sense to me... I suppose a test case would be something like "On 'Nice When I Want Something,' Scott Miller recruited the guitarist Mike Keneally" (Keneally being, in the infamous phrase, well-known among people who've heard of him) vs. "On 'Shining Emerald Monkeys,' The Garden Gnomes of Zurich recruited the guitarist Bud Sprenkler"...which sounds kind of pretentious if you know that Bud is just some guy playing with a barely known local band. In that case, plain ol' "guitarist Bud Sprenkler" (no article) seems better. Uh...any Buddhists on the list? Got a couple of questions: I have a vague memory of a Buddhist proverb along the lines of "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him" - and I've always connected the lines in that Shriekback song ("we're on the road, and we're gunning for the Buddha") with that proverb. Am I remembering the Buddhist thing correctly? And if so, what does it mean? (I have some ideas, but as a non-Buddhist would have no way of knowing if they're remotely approaching a Buddhist understanding of them.) (Anyone who includes the word "Grasshopper" in reply...watch your ass, I say. Watch your ass.) In other news, while writing comments on a student paper, after three sentences enumerating some issues involved with writing a paper centering around a personal narrative, I found myself beginning a summary sentence with "So, you have a decision..." The comma came out from my typing fingers before I even thought about it...but sure enough, it was functioning pretty much as glenn described it, being bound to the ideas of the three preceding sentences more than to those of this sentence. I suspect this works with other conjunctions as well: functionally, they work adverbially, along the lines of "therefore" and such. How come we're not talking about the death of Wall of Voodoo guitarist Marc Moreland? - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::The dog-eared pages, the highlighted passages, the margin ::notations...this book has actually been read: it can't be a student's! __Jose Chung__ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 21:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Gil Ray Subject: [loud-fans] a day at the races (and the luck o the Irish!) Happy Saint Pat's day! * monkeys moving computer cursors with their minds...Great news for disabled folk, but scarey news for me. So..are monkeys technologically more advanced than humans now? * Stacey and I went to the horse races today (with Russ Tolman and his wife Kim. Most of you will remember Russ from True West). We bet on a horse named Big Shot, and won $10! Weird. * I drive 12 miles to work in a 2000 Saturn L-series station wagon. It's the fanciest car I've ever had. Great stereo, but my favorite feature is the Electric Ass Warmer in the seats. I use this feature every morning. I also can boast of having the last descent Bay area commute. From Alameda County (home of Barbara Lee, the only anti-war spokesperson in Congress) to Marin County (home of the Taliban guy).Cool. * As I get older, sleeping becomes more difficult. I get to sleep without a problem. I just wake up about an hour earlier than I need to. (Monster (cat) wants food.) * More great female voices in mixed bands: Kim Longachre (Reivers), Liz Cox (Christmas), Claudia Gonson (Mag Fields) and K. McCarty (Glass Eye). Oh yeah! How could I forget the absolute epitome of cool rock chick: Heidi of The Negro Problem! * Whoever thought up solitaire is a genius. * Yes, Dave Grohl is cute, but he really needs to lose the chewing gum. Gil Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 21:31:42 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Curley Subject: Fwd: RE: [loud-fans] six degrees of stereo separation I just picked up this album on Saturday (I hadn't read Aaron's note yet...it's just another of those small coincidences that make life enjoyable), and I haven't stopped playing it yet. Aaron's right. It is a great album (except for the unnecessary cover of Strawberry Fields). Mike - --- Aaron Milenski wrote: > And I forgot: Probably the best British psychedeilc > album is the > self-titled album by Tomorrow, which was Steve > Howe's first band. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:31:47 -0800 (PST) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a day at the races (and the luck o the Irish!) I'm too tired to use spell check. gill - --- Gil Ray wrote: > Happy Saint Pat's day! > * monkeys moving computer cursors with their > minds...Great news for disabled folk, but scarey > news > for me. So..are monkeys technologically more > advanced > than humans now? > > * Stacey and I went to the horse races today (with > Russ Tolman and his wife Kim. Most of you will > remember Russ from True West). We bet on a horse > named > Big Shot, and won $10! Weird. > > * I drive 12 miles to work in a 2000 Saturn L-series > station wagon. It's the fanciest car I've ever had. > Great stereo, but my favorite feature is the > Electric > Ass Warmer in the seats. I use this feature every > morning. I also can boast of having the last descent > Bay area commute. From Alameda County (home of > Barbara > Lee, the only anti-war spokesperson in Congress) to > Marin County (home of the Taliban guy).Cool. > > * As I get older, sleeping becomes more difficult. I > get to sleep without a problem. I just wake up about > an hour earlier than I need to. (Monster (cat) wants > food.) > > * More great female voices in mixed bands: Kim > Longachre (Reivers), Liz Cox (Christmas), Claudia > Gonson (Mag Fields) and K. McCarty (Glass Eye). Oh > yeah! How could I forget the absolute epitome of > cool > rock chick: Heidi of The Negro Problem! > > * Whoever thought up solitaire is a genius. > > * Yes, Dave Grohl is cute, but he really needs to > lose > the chewing gum. > Gil > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #106 *******************************