From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #346 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, December 19 2001 Volume 01 : Number 346 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [Dana L Paoli ] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing ["O Geier" ] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [dana-boy@juno.com] [loud-fans] share my pain (ns) [dana-boy@juno.com] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [dana-boy@juno.com] Re: [loud-fans] New Joey Ramone ["Dennis McGreevy" ] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [Michael Mitton ] [loud-fans] Movie quota ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] [loud-fans] Gay Ramones [JRT456@aol.com] [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs [Michael Zwirn ] Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 ["glenn mcdonald" ] Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs ["Andrew Hamlin"] Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 [Roger Winston ] Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs ["Dennis McGreev] Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 [Michael Mitton ] Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 [jenny grover ] Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] Premature bewilderment about end-of-year best-ofs [Dana L] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:26:55 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing What about businesses who just play local radio for their customers? Do they have to pay the fees that the radio stations are already paying for the same performances? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a FAQ at BMI's website that answers most questions like this. Also their contract specifies what counts as a public performance and all the other pertinent details. It's written in pretty plain English, and easily accessible at bmi.com. I'd encourage anyone who's interested to check out the website, which I found to be very informative. BTW, I'm still interested by the fact that the two examples proposed so far (coffee shop, Dylan bar) served mainly to show that small businesses attempt to avoid paying fees that they are legally required to pay, and yet the focus of the discussion remains on BMI/ASCAP. I know that it's easier (and probably more fun) to worry about one or two mega-businesses (did I mention on-list that BMI is a non-profit? I can't remember) than it is to note the cumulative effect of millions of people who consider themselves honest but can't be bothered to pay for things that they ought to. It reminds me of the fact that if one person steals a million dollars it's news, but if a million people steal one dollar it's normal. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:37:12 +0000 From: "O Geier" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing <> The covers I did he wouldn't know were covers, I'm sure. Things like 'So Long Marianne' by Leonard Cohen, 'Neverland' by the dB's and 'I've Tried Subtlety' by you know who. Support anti-Spam legislation. Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:51:16 -0500 From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing > The covers I did he wouldn't know were covers, I'm sure. Things > like 'So > Long Marianne' by Leonard Cohen, 'Neverland' by the dB's and 'I've > Tried > Subtlety' by you know who. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Leonard Cohen and the dB's appear to be BMI artists. I'm not sure about the Loud Family. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:13:25 -0500 From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] share my pain (ns) Aaaargh, I missed it.... From the Village Voice Dave Weckerman was the most charismatic Feelie by default. In the '80s heyday of that notoriously unprepossessing band, he would set up his milk carton of percussive tricks by Stan Demeski's proper drum kit, hunch over his mic with maracas, a tambourine, or maybe a wood block, and focus his intense gaze on the feet of guitarists Glenn Mercer and Bill Million, as if he couldn't bear to watch their frantic playing. Feelies shows at Maxwell's were religious experiences, and then owner Steve Fallon couldn't even advertise them in this newspaperyou had to spot the notice in the Pier Platters window on your way to the PATH. "But when Steve couldn't get another band, he knew he could always call us," says Weckerman. "If Smashing Pumpkins couldn't make ittime for Yung Wu." The Wu was Weckerman's band, a lighter, steadier version of the Feelies' itchy rhythms. Eventually every other member was a Feelie too, and that lineup made a record for Fallon's Coyote label. The Feelies broke up 10 years ago (after Million left in the night for Florida) and Yung Wu hadn't played in 13, but four weeks ago Ira Kaplan of Yo La Tengo called to ask if they could open the first of his band's eight Hanukkah benefits at Maxwell's. It wasn't hard: Mercer and Demeski still rehearse every week with Weckerman and his old gang, and they've played some shows together as Sunburst. Except for one new song, they stuck to the record. Eyes closed, fleece zipped even under the hot lights, Weckerman revisited ringers like the Stones' "Child of the Moon" and his own "Empty Pool," covered by Yo La on their first LP. The six of us old enough to remember were thrilled. "See you in 2014," Weckerman said at the end. More like two hours: For their own encore, Yo La brought him and Mercer back for a five-song Feelies set of increasing proficiency, culminating in a radiant "When Company Comes." It turns out there are some benefits to reliving 1991. Josh Goldfein ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:47:55 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, jenny grover wrote: > Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > > Doug's thing about exemptions for promo copies is curious: of course, if > > I thought he was only talking about promo copy play in record stores, > not other types of establishments. and those served to radio, that's correct. I'm not completely certain whether there is an 'official' exemption for record stores or merely a tacit agreement; I think there is, though, and I think it has to do with the fact that ones doesn't earn any royalties on promo copies. Promo copies also typically say (well the ones from the majors anyway) "licensed for promotional use only" which i take to include radio airplay but to exclude playing in a commercial establishment. i legitimately get review copies of CDs, but i don't think i could legitimately play those cd's in my theoretical coffee shop. As far as whistling "Feelings" at the espresso machine goes, my understanding is that that's not a public performance unless it's *intended* as such, but there is obviously a grey area somewhere there. One more thing to be said, which is that I have known of independent coffee houses and music clubs that run *so* close to the wire that paying their ascap and bmi scales could literally put them under. i suspect that usally personal graft bleeds money from the business and they usually go under eventually anyway. but i have some sympathy for a start-up operation not wanting to license for a full year when they don't know if they'll be around for a full year. - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:06:22 -0500 From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing One more thing to be said, which is that I have known of independent coffee houses and music clubs that run *so* close to the wire that paying their ascap and bmi scales could literally put them under. i suspect that usally personal graft bleeds money from the business and they usually go under eventually anyway. but i have some sympathy for a start-up operation not wanting to license for a full year when they don't know if they'll be around for a full year. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not going to make a blanket statement, as obviously no one can know the details of every business, and there's always someone somewhere who's the exception to the rule... But, I'll say three things: 1. Never make judgements about a business' finances until you've actually seen their books. 2. If the $600 that it costs a coffee shop to pay ASCAP and BMI is going to put them under, then we're probably talking about an ill-conceived business, and 3. The fact that people are running businesses in the red doesn't grant them the right to break the law. And it's perfectly possible to play music that's not BMI/ASCAP if it's really going to be a major financial problem. Also, BMI pro-rates their fee for time periods when BMI music isn't being publicly performed: therefore, if the business went under, they would get a refund. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:24:30 -0600 From: "Dennis McGreevy" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] New Joey Ramone Andrea, then doug: > gay/lesbian music and entertainment magazine for Philly. Pretty wild to hear > it here, Joey wasn't gay. The songs were a cover of What A Wonderful World, doesn't the legs mcneil book claim that he was hustling professionally before he hoined the ramones? or is not gay if you're just doing it to pay the rent (or the smack bill)? or is the legs mcneil book all bullshit? <><><><><><><><> It's been a couple years since I read _Please Kill Me_, but I think that was Dee Dee. I'll cite "53rd & 3rd" as backup on this assertion. - --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:33:06 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] New Joey Ramone "Dennis McGreevy" on 2001/12/19 Wed AM 11:24:30 MST wrote: > It's been a couple years since I read _Please Kill Me_, but I think > that was Dee Dee. I'll cite "53rd & 3rd" as backup on this assertion. You know, I can't remember exactly where I heard it, but I think that Dee Dee was the gay Ramone. Something about the lyrics to "53rd & 3rd". Can anyone back that up? Later.Later.Later.Later. --RogRogRogRog - -- When toads are not enough: http://www.reignoffrogs.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:20:16 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Stewart Mason wrote: > I remember reading somewhere (Entertainment Weekly, maybe? someplace like > that) that on both seasons of Big Brother, the contestants were expressly > discouraged from singing any songs that weren't public domain, because the > live internet feeds would count as "public performances." So basically, > yeah, everyone from a streetcorner busker to the guy in the next cubicle > who hums the Batman theme all day technically owe ASCAP and BMI bucks. I can add that one of the big sticking points in ASCAP's trip to the rate courts with the cable companies was so-called "ambient" music--that is, it's not music that the producers specifically put into their programs, but ends up there as a bi-product of what they're covering. The problem was that stations like ESPN and CNN, which use a pretty limited set of songs, have been wanting to license all their music directly from composers, and so avoid paying ASCAP and BMI fees. ASCAP comes in and says, "But when you show that football game, you're picking up the college band when it plays Queen in the stadium, and you [ESPN] need a license for that as well!" This, essentially, was ASCAP's way of forcing ESPN and CNN to puchase licenses from ASCAP instead of directly. As it turned out (I think), this specific issue, whether tv stations would have to be responsible for such ambient music, was never specifically ruled on, since everyone was settling the case (that is, agreeing to rates). - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:52:13 -0600 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] New Joey Ramone Dennis/Roger >> It's been a couple years since I read _Please Kill Me_, but I think >> that was Dee Dee. I'll cite "53rd & 3rd" as backup on this assertion. > >You know, I can't remember exactly where I heard it, but I think that >Dee Dee was the gay Ramone. Something about the lyrics to "53rd & 3rd". >Can anyone back that up? I think someone just munged the smoes. Dennis' missive didn't even make it into the archive... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:23:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: [loud-fans] Movie quota On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Steve Holtebeck wrote: > keeping up my quota of movie-related posts, In keeping with laws & standards, here is my movie-related post. Sue & I saw 4 movies this weekend. We had a lot of catching-up to do, what with the movie season getting heavy. Herewith my thoughts re: them: 1. Ocean's Eleven (punctuation appropriate for content): a nifty caper flick, great if you like 'em, not worth it if you don't, unless you like to look at George Clooney, Matt Damon, or Bradd Pitt, or some combination thereof. Warning: the most flesh in the movie is shown by Elliott Gould. 2. Porn Star: The Legend Of Ron Jeremy: No problem with skin in this flick. The heart of this documentary is that Ron is a mensch whose driving desire is to achieve non-porn fame and reputation for his acting ability, "like Traci Lords". He's still pretty famous, though. Like a Daily Show human interest story with lots of nudity. 3. Monsters, Inc.: an absolutely terrific movie. Pixar seems to have this formula down pat - comedic duo, hair-raising action scenes, heart-tugging interaction with children, Randy Newman song - but they make it work well, and the animation is stunning. 4. Shallow Hal: a bit of a puzzler for me. I loathe Jack Black's "acting". He can play an attitude, but he never seems to have an inner life. He can say the lines, and make faces which approximate the appropriate feeling, but he never disappears into the character, which really hurts when he's up against a real actor, in this case, Gwyneth Paltrow. She is the reason to see this movie. Granted, she's attractive, but she never acts that way. There's no difference characterwise between the thin Rosemary and the fat Rosemary. I didn't like the movie coming out of the theater, but the more I think about it, the better it gets. It's got the stupid bodily-function humor you'd expect, but the ending is sweet. This week: Lord of The Rings - The Fellowship Of The Ring (on my company's dime). I bet the 3-pack of DVDs from LotR will be a stunner in 2004 or so. J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:36:44 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Gay Ramones If this doesn't turn out to be the gayest album of next year, it should at least be one of the thilliest.... DV8/Columbia Records will be releasing a Ramones tribute album this Spring. The confirmed line-up so far includes: Rob Zombie Eddie Vedder Red Hot Chili Peppers Green Day Offspring Rancid Some acts have already completed recording their tracks and most others are scheduled to record after the Xmas holidays. More details to follow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:57:09 -0800 From: Michael Zwirn Subject: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs Where are all the lists? Was the really really _that_ bad? (My tendency would be to say, yes.) Michael n.p. Look Blue Go Purple, Compilation - ------------------------------------------------------- Michael Zwirn, Environmental Policy Analyst michael@zwirn.com http://zwirn.com Home 503/232-8919 Cell 503/887-9800 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:03:49 -0700 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs At 12:57 PM 12/19/01 -0800, Michael Zwirn wrote: >Where are all the lists? Was the really really _that_ bad? >(My tendency would be to say, yes.) Because, like Michael Bowen, you've digested every record that's come out in the last 11 and a half months. It's only December 19, and I seem to recall that the end-of-year best-ofs on this list have tended to show up in January. So the lists aren't here yet because, well, it's not time for them yet. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:19:25 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs >Where are all the lists? Was the really really _that_ bad? >(My tendency would be to say, yes.) *sigh* I certainly don't intend to single out Michael, but, against the seemingly-inevitable "This year really sucked for music" claims (a subset of the eternally-rising "new music sucks" claim?) I'll put to the public the only defense I know how to put on: here is my tentative, though not final, list of the Top Ten Albums of 2001. Have you listened to these recordings? If so, what did you think of them? If not: "Well, get on it then!" 1. Jandek--PUT MY DREAM ON THIS PLANET 2. Otis Taylor--WHITE AFRICAN 3. David Thomas and Two Pale Boys--SURF'S UP! 4. Marillion--ANORAKNOPHOBIA 5. Shearwater--THE DISSOLVING ROOM 6. Laurie Anderson--LIFE ON A STRING 7. Tomo Nakayama--DAYLIGHT FALLS 8. Kinski--BE GENTLE WITH THE WARM TURTLE 9. Johnny Dowd--TEMPORARY SHELTER 10. Richard Youngs--MAKING PAPER bubbling under: Dolly Parton, LITTLE SPARROW; Low, THINGS WE LOST IN THE FIRE; Leonard Cohen, TEN NEW SONGS; Carly Hennessy, ULTIMATE HIGH; Bad Wizard, FREE AND EASY; Runrig, THE STAMPING GROUND; Jonathan Richman, HER MYSERY NOT OF HIGH HEELS AND EYE SHADOW Running to the light (which seems to be vanishing westward, oddly enough), Andy BlondGirlie16: how do u pay your taxes? ForToy: Very carefully - --from some AOL chatroom (courtesy Jeff Travis) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:42:53 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Michael Zwirn wrote: > Where are all the lists? Was the really really _that_ bad? > (My tendency would be to say, yes.) The year was GREAT! I'm having trouble winnowing it down to a mere 50 records for the ritual year-end mix CD swap I've been doing with an old friend of mine. Well, that includes a few reissues and some flawed albums with one or two great songs, but basically, it's raining men. Musically speaking. On the other hand, a handful of my absolute favorite purchases this year were late discoveries from 2000. So I could be persuaded that this year represented a dropoff, but not by any means that it was bad. And even in less exciting years I think I've usually started seeing the lists roll in no earlier than now, no? If nobody objects too strenuously to me running the poll again, it's now ready to go at http://www.pastemob.org/lf01/ and will stay there until February 1, 2002. I think the pyramidal scoring system from last year worked well, so I've kept it, but if you've got violent disagreement, lay it on me. Last year we also went through the brief process of people sending in lists of 2000 releases to be compiled into a list of "nominations" -- not that other things weren't eligible, just for the benefit of people with shaky memories. Not too many folks send anything in; is it worth doing that again? aaron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:42:20 -0500 From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs > 1. Jandek--PUT MY DREAM ON THIS PLANET >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, things like this need a little asterisk or footnote or something. Mr. Hamlin, please come to the front of the class and explain to all the good girls and boys what they'll be getting for their money. Or make a promise to buy any unloved copies of the CD that might be purchased by the unsuspecting at your behest. I'm not saying that *you* aren't allowed to like it. I also count myself in the "it was a great year" camp, although there is no overlap between my list and Andrew's. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:58:20 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: [loud-fans] Music Business (I didni't say music) In Crisis, 2001: Three Articles http://www.salon.com/ent/music/feature/2001/12/19/music_industry/index.html http://www.salon.com/ent/music/feature/2001/12/19/music_industry/index.html http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/12/18/dont_steal_music/index.html The Neil Young, I'd like to hear. Andy "Prepare to embrace your creators in the stygian haunts of hell, barbarian", gasped the first soldier. "Only after you have kissed the fleeting stead of death, wretch!" returned Grignr. A sweeping blade of flashing steel riveted from the massive barbarians hide enameled shield as his rippling right arm thrust forth, sending a steel shod blade to the hilt into the soldiers vital organs. The disemboweled mercenary crumpled from his saddle and sank to the clouded sward, sprinkling the parched dust with crimson droplets of escaping life fluid. [--from Jim Theis' "The Eye Of Agron," read the whole(?) thing at http://public.logica.com/~stepneys/sf/eyeargon.htm ] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:55:21 -0500 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 Is anyone out there watching 24? I'm surprised not to see any posts about it. I'm finding this show absolutely remarkable. They've been able to maintain the tension through one fourth of the day now, and last night's plot twist surprised me about as much as anything I've seen in film or on TV. The only problem is that the show fills me with so much anxiety that I can't fall asleep after I see it. Comments from the crowd? _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:03:00 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 I thought the 24-hour concept was interesting, but by halfway through hour three I ran out of patience for the actual implementation. Suspenseful, but not in any way I cared about... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Milenski" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:55 pm Subject: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 > Is anyone out there watching 24? I'm surprised not to see any posts about > it. I'm finding this show absolutely remarkable. They've been able to > maintain the tension through one fourth of the day now, and last night's > plot twist surprised me about as much as anything I've seen in film or on > TV. The only problem is that the show fills me with so much anxiety that I > can't fall asleep after I see it. Comments from the crowd? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:07:15 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs >> 1. Jandek--PUT MY DREAM ON THIS PLANET >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Ok, things like this need a little asterisk or footnote or something. >Mr. Hamlin, please come to the front of the class and explain to all the >good girls and boys what they'll be getting for their money. Or make a >promise to buy any unloved copies of the CD that might be purchased by >the unsuspecting at your behest. Fair enough! http://www.toastmag.com/rotw/jandek/index.html I won't promise to buy unloved copies--but then again, has anyone ever actually done that? Andy "They rounded the corner, and saw, in the flickering firelight, a sight which chilled the very blood in their veins. It seemed to coagulate the very corpuscles in their arteries." - --from BEYOND TIME by John E. Muller (aka R. Lionel Fanthorpe) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:27:39 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Aaron Milenski wrote: > Is anyone out there watching 24? I'm surprised not to see any posts > about it. I'm finding this show absolutely remarkable. I've been watching it, though I think I might have missed hour 3. I loved the idea and the occasional split-screen shots, but the first few episodes disappointed me. Now that the groundwork's laid I'm enjoying it more. It's funny that the image they want -- fast-paced thriller, never a dull moment -- is almost completely at odds with the conceit. The pacing's better when they slow it down and drag out the tension, but that also demands more of their so-so writing team. > They've been able to maintain the tension through one fourth of the > day now, and last night's plot twist surprised me about as much as > anything I've seen in film or on TV. Really? My apartment was waiting for that to happen since about 12:20. In fact, my biggest problem with the show is that the question of who to trust boils down to an endless series of lady-or-the-tiger dilemmas. To maintain suspense, almost every character's allegiances stay ambiguous; when you notice any serious evidence pointing one way or the other (like the leading questions "Alan York" asks on the phone with Terri Bauer in hour 1 as he's working up the con) you know that either you've figured out the twist or, worse, the writers are intentionally tricking you. I don't see any grand puzzle building in the backstory that would let the viewer start piecing together the significance of the many little threads. > The only problem is that the show fills me with so much anxiety that I > can't fall asleep after I see it. Yeah. I almost can't take it; to date, the only movies I've walked out of were crime flicks that made me feel as though the author just enjoyed setting up little figurines and torturing them. Having a clever plot twist lead to the cruel death of an innocent character skirts that line. Not about 24: last week's West Wing had a very cute real-time thing in it... after an ad, the hearing is gavelled back into session. Something shocking happens; a recess is suggested. "But we just had one!" someone protests. They call the recess anyway -- then cut to commercial, after maybe three minutes of TV. I, not getting it, complained about how close together the ads were; a roommate had to point out that I'd been rooked. a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:29:23 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 "Aaron Milenski" on 2001/12/19 Wed PM 04:55:21 MST wrote: > Is anyone out there watching 24? I'm surprised not to see any posts about > it. I'm finding this show absolutely remarkable. They've been able to > maintain the tension through one fourth of the day now, It took me a few episodes to warm to it, but I'm really getting into 24. One of the remarkable things is that the producers keep saying they do NOT have the whole thing planned out and are making it up as they go along (which does show a bit). That could be a good or a bad thing in the long run... > and last night's > plot twist surprised me about as much as anything I've seen in film or on > TV. Yeah, that plot twist was really out of left field, though I saw it coming a few seconds before. I had one big problem with it though: [spoiler space] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Didn't Janet say "Daddy!" when her *false* daddy walked into the room? I guess she was just so out of it from the operation that she'd mistake anyone for her father... Later. --Rog - -- When toads are not enough: http://www.reignoffrogs.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:38:17 -0600 From: "Dennis McGreevy" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs Andy .sigs: BlondGirlie16: how do u pay your taxes? ForToy: Very carefully <><><><><><><> Boy are my arms tired. - --D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:44:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 I am also a big fan of 24, which I think is the tensest hour of TV around now. It reminds me a little of MURDER ONE, another show with a single plot lasting all season. On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Roger Winston wrote: > It took me a few episodes to warm to it, but I'm really getting into > 24. One of the remarkable things is that the producers keep saying > they do NOT have the whole thing planned out and are making it up as > they go along (which does show a bit). That could be a good or a bad > thing in the long run... The producers have plot points mapped out, but haven't written the episodes yet, so there is some coherence, although specific characters vary in quality (now callous, now caring) from episode to episode. > Yeah, that plot twist was really out of left field, though I saw it > coming a few seconds before. I had one big problem with it though: > [spoiler space] > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > Didn't Janet say "Daddy!" when her *false* daddy walked into the room? > I guess she was just so out of it from the operation that she'd > mistake anyone for her father... She says "Daddy?", and then "You're not my father". I figured it out when he asked to be alone with her. Problem: how would he know he had to kill her? He had no knowledge that she had seen the kidnappers, and was thus a threat to the plot. The phone call from Nina was just a way of giving Teri that knowledge to put her on equal footing with him. My guess for the next step: he's to kidnap Teri and hold her as a second ransom against Jack. So any guesses as to how he gets out of killing Nina next week? Anybody else think the daughter looks a little like Britney Spears? Anybody else think it must have been uncomfortable to wear the same clothes every day for an entire season of filming? J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:46:25 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 > Is anyone out there watching 24? I'm surprised not to see any posts about I've been enjoying it, even though there are a hundred things every episode that bug me. Like last night--the girl is in ICU, and there's no way that could happen to her in an ICU unit, certainly not without a team of nurses rushing in. Digging a rather deep grave in about 40 minutes. With each commercial, the clock threateningly counts out the full hour for the episode all the way to the end, yet the end comes in 56 minutes even though the clock counts 60. In 20 or 30 minutes in the middle of the night, they can go from an X-ray of surgical pin, to the manufacuturer, to the doctor, to the patient. These are all little things that I'd ordinarily let pass except that the show claims so much self-importance about the "all events happen in real-time!" gimmick. I should say, though, that I've long liked the idea of television shows that are specifically designed to last for one season. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:24:08 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs Michael Zwirn wrote: > > Where are all the lists? Was the really really _that_ bad? > (My tendency would be to say, yes.) Some of us are waiting for Christmas, when we will hopefully get some more new releases to listen to. I could make up a list now, but I might leave out something good that I haven't heard yet. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:25:38 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs Not only is this year not over, there are three albums that will probably make my top-ten that I haven't even gotten around to writing review of yet, and even yesterday I got one more new release I'd been really looking forward to (Saturnine's _Pleasure of Ruins_). I am already *working* on my list, but I'll need most of year's the remaining 12 days to finalize it... glenn - -----Original Message----- From: owner-loud-fans@smoe.org [mailto:owner-loud-fans@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Michael Zwirn Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 3:57pm To: Loudfans Subject: [loud-fans] Shocking absence of end-of-year best-ofs Where are all the lists? Was the really really _that_ bad? (My tendency would be to say, yes.) Michael n.p. Look Blue Go Purple, Compilation - ------------------------------------------------------- Michael Zwirn, Environmental Policy Analyst michael@zwirn.com http://zwirn.com Home 503/232-8919 Cell 503/887-9800 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:33:49 -0800 From: Michael Zwirn Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Premature bewilderment about end-of-year best-ofs On 12/19/01 4:25 PM, glenn mcdonald wrote: > I am > already *working* on my list, but I'll need most of year's the remaining > 12 days to finalize it... I obviously misspoke (mistyped) badly, as the inability to type the word "year" would indicate, and for this Stuart has already reflexively chewed me out. My intention was to make express the obviously unspoken thought, "Why did I hear so much crap, when there obviously are good records out there - that I clearly never heard?" Notably, due to the pressures of printing schedules for magazines, the big US and UK mags have released their lists: The Onion's AV club accomplishes the dubious fact of listing almost every album I bought this year, which is noteworthy because I bought so few: http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3745/bonusfeature1_3745.html They also have the year's "Least Essential" CDs, which are slightly more entertaining but scarcely worthy of purchase. SPIN 20. American Pie 2 Sndtrck 19. Born to Do It-Craig David 18. Is This Is?-The Strokes 17. The Id-Macy Gray 16. Lateralus-Tool 15. Change-The Dismemberment Plan 14. Party Music-The Coup 13. Essence-Lucinda Williams 12. Proxima Estacion: Esperanza-Manu Chao 11. DE9:Closer to the Exit-Richie Hawtin 10. Strange Little Girls-Tori Amos 9. Weezer (The Green Album)-Weezer 8. Discovery-Daft Punk 7. The Blueprint-Jay-Z 6. Gorillaz-Gorillaz 5. Vespertine-Bjork 4. Love and Theft-Bob Dylan 3. Rooty-The Basement Jaxx 2. Amnesiac-Radiohead 1. Toxicity-System of a Down Rolling Stone 1. Love and Theft-Bob Dylan 2. Songs in A Minor-Alicia Keys 3. Goddess in the Doorway-Mick Jagger 4. Vespertine-Bjork 5. The Blueprint-Jay-Z 6. Beautiful Garbage-Garbage 7. Proxima Estacion: Esperanza-Manu Chao 8. Is This It?-The Strokes 9. O Brother Where Art Thou? Sndtrck 10. Amnesiac-Radiohead NME 20. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, No More Shall We Part 19. Fugazi, The Argument 18. Roots Manuva, Run Come Save Me 17. Pulp, We Love Life 16. Daft Punk, Discovery 15. Destiny's Child, Survivor 14. Air, 10,000 Hz Legend 13. Basement Jaxx, Rooty 12. Elbow, Asleep in the Back 11. Super Furry Animals, Asleep Around the World 10. Aphex Twin, Drukqs 9. Andrew WK, I Get Wet 8. Rufus Wainwright, Poses 7. Mercury Rev, All is Dream 6. Slipnot, Iowa 5. Starsailor, Love is Here 4. Jay-Z, The Blueprint 3. The White Stripes, White Blood Cells 2. Spiritualized, Let It Come Down 1. The Strokes, Is This It? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:34:02 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 Aaron Milenski wrote: > > Is anyone out there watching 24? I'm surprised not to see any posts about > it. I'm finding this show absolutely remarkable. They've been able to > maintain the tension through one fourth of the day now, and last night's > plot twist surprised me about as much as anything I've seen in film or on > TV. The only problem is that the show fills me with so much anxiety that I > can't fall asleep after I see it. Comments from the crowd? Yes, I'm watching it faithfully, though I wasn't home for last night's episode, so will catch the reprise Friday night. It keeps me on the edge of my seat, that's for sure. The anxiety it produces in me can be disturbing and there are times when I feel almost like I just can't watch, or shouldn't watch, parts of it, but I do. Kinda like when you see a bad accident. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:44:40 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 "Joseph M. Mallon" wrote: > > Anybody else think it must have been uncomfortable to wear the same > clothes every day for an entire season of filming? I saw or read a short interview with Kiefer Sullivan where that issue was addressed. Not only did they have to wear the same clothes, but any kind of spots, tears, etc. had to be preserved. While shooting one scene he got a scratch or scrape, on his face, I think, and the crew asked him, do you want that covered, or do you want to have to have it there all season? He chose to have it covered. Of course, hair has to stay the same length, color, and style, too. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:00:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24, not 23 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, jenny grover wrote: > I saw or read a short interview with Kiefer Sullivan where that issue > was addressed. Not only did they have to wear the same clothes, but any > kind of spots, tears, etc. had to be preserved. While shooting one > scene he got a scratch or scrape, on his face, I think, and the crew > asked him, do you want that covered, or do you want to have to have it > there all season? He chose to have it covered. Of course, hair has to > stay the same length, color, and style, too. Sue was wondering how they kept his stubble length the same from episode to episode. I think it's the George Michael Stubblinator (tm). J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:15:24 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Premature bewilderment about end-of-year best-ofs >11. Super Furry Animals, Asleep Around the World >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just so no one goes nuts looking for this, it's "Rings Around the World" and it's very good. Did everyone note that Rolling Stone has the new Mick Jagger album at #3? - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #346 *******************************