From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #345 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, December 19 2001 Volume 01 : Number 345 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [Dana L Paoli ] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [Michael Mitton ] Re: [loud-fans] New Joey Ramone [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing [jenny grover ] [loud-fans] spam du jour [jenny grover ] Re: [loud-fans] spam du jour ["West Moran" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:20:15 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:03:42 -0700 Roger Winston writes: >Does anyone else think it would be fun to lock Dana in a room with a >TV that is on all the time and plays only episodes of the sitcom "Yes, >Dear" and not let him out until he violates a copyright? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Before I answer, is "violates a copyright" a euphemism that I don't know about? It *is* Roger asking. - --dana np: Sesame Street Fever ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:17:42 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > Fine, one might say, that's what Scott signed up for. But given that the choices > for a songwriter are BMI, ASCAP, or go-fuck-yourself, and that there's not much > to choose between BMI and ASCAP, I think one can reasonably question whether > this [a play of a popular song is worth more than a play of a Scott > song] is fair. If memory serves, ASCAP was basically the only game in town until Dylan decided that ASCAP wasn't revenue-sharing fairly. He jumped over to a tiny BMI, and that fact made BMI a viable option for all artists. But this leads to an interesting insight about how these things work. BMI and ASCAP need to maintain libraries that are as large as possible, or at least libraries that are important enough so that everybody has to license their music. This gives them the monopoly rents that (in theory) they pass on to their artists. For someone like Scott, the choices are exactly what Tim lists: ASCAP, BMI, or go-fuck-yourself. But for someone like, say, U2, the choices are: ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, or a new organization entirely. That is, U2 has enough clout that whatever performing rights organization they belonged to, everyone would have to buy a license from that organization. ASCAP and BMI have to maintain their monopoly status. WIth that objective, they can let all the Scott Millers in the world leave their organization, and it doesn't really matter to them. But they can't let U2 go, which means they need a structure for renumeration which will ensure that the U2s don't defect. This probably means that the Scott Millers are going to get screwed by ASCAP, etc. But, before we get too upset at the situation, I think you have to think about what the world would look life if there were no performing rights organizations. In such a world, the big studio acts wouldn't be much worse off, because they have the clout to ensure that their music still makes it onto the radios. The small indie acts, on the other hand, would never get anyone to pay them for performing rights. So in this alternate world, the Scott Millers would get zilch. So I guess I'm saying this: Any performing rights organization is going to be weighted more heavily to compensate their big acts, but the little acts are still better off with them than without. - --Michael np Kristin Hersh "Sunny Border Blue" Thumbs up! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:13:35 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > The interesting thing about Oz's story (about his band, playing all > originals or otherwise unpublished material - yet the rep accused them of > playing covers) is that that, too, is hard to establish or prove. Well, the whole thing with BMI and ASCAP is that it's a protection racket wrapped around a legitimate intellectual property concern. It works by scaring people. Anything structured like that is set up to breed resentment by most of the pigeons, and dicey accounting by the publishing companies themselves; even if BMI or ASCAP is so virtuous as to wipe out the latter within themselves, the former will thrive. People don't enjoy being threatened, no matter how much legal precedent the threatener has on their side. I think parking enforcement's a good analogy here. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:03:32 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] New Joey Ramone On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, dmw wrote: > doesn't the legs mcneil book claim that he was hustling professionally > before he hoined the ramones? or is not gay if you're just doing it to pay > the rent (or the smack bill)? or is the legs mcneil book all bullshit? Tangentially related both to this and to our earlier discussion about _Rolling Stone_: I was paging through their year-end issue in a store, and somewhere in their year's recap they note something to the effect of "Michael Stipe comes out in an interview in _Time_ magazine." Huh? Just what planet is RS on, that Stipe would still otherwise have been closeted? He's been out for years, I thought. While we're on the subject (what subject? pointless things, of course), what' sup with Old Navy calling 'em "sleep bottoms"? What, the word "pajamas" isn't good enough for them? - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Never drive a car when you're dead:: __Tom Waits__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:03:53 EST From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing In a message dated 12/18/01 6:04:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, rwinston@tde.com writes: > Does anyone else think it would be fun to lock Dana in a room with a TV that > is on all the time and plays only episodes of the sitcom "Yes, Dear" and > not let him out until he violates a copyright? > > That's utter torture. I can't believe that show is STILL on. Does that guy on there wear his baseball hat during sex and while sleeping do you think? I saw him in the Sandra Bullock movie where that character she plays goes into detox and same deal. Is there some oozing sore up there he's trying to cover up or what? Mark "It's a shame what's happened to some good old words. 'Tragic' used to point to a noble struggle between human beings and the forces of fate; today it means "really, really sad." 'Irony' stood for the recognition that human knowledge of the universe is profoundly limited--before it morphed into that smirky feeling of superiority we get when we watch the Brady Bunch." (from "Hear Sensuality, Think Sex? Why we're so leery of our sensuous selves" by Jon Spayde, the Utne Reader, December) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:35:58 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > I don't feel that I have enough information to opine on the restaurant in > question. For starters, it's not clear to me from Aaron's post whether they were > actually playing BMI/ASCAP material. (BMI/ASCAP would hassle them even if they > weren't, hoping for a slip-up, e.g. the espresso jerk whistling "Feelings".) Why would a place that features bands playing original material need a BMI/ASCAP license? Unless, of course, merely to cover their ass. Wait...we could call that an "asscap." Sorry. But Tim, I hope you're joking that the espresso guy whistling "Feelings" should, technically, be paid for? Yeesh. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Solipsism is its own reward:: __Crow T. Robot__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:40:20 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Aaron Mandel wrote: > Well, the whole thing with BMI and ASCAP is that it's a protection racket > wrapped around a legitimate intellectual property concern. It works by > scaring people. Anything structured like that is set up to breed > resentment by most of the pigeons, and dicey accounting by the publishing I'd heard that some bands intentionally split their publishing to keep the two publishers honest. I think the Posies worked that way: everything was credited to Ken Stringfellow and Jonathan Auer, and one published with ASCAP and the other with BMI. Theoretically, the proceeds from each house would have to be equal. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::To be the center of the universe, don't orbit things:: __Scott Miller__ np: me grinding my teeth as some new hardware fucked up my scanner settings, and now the scanner wont' reinstall... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:52:14 -0700 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing At 11:35 PM 12/18/01 -0600, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >But Tim, I hope you're joking that the espresso guy whistling "Feelings" >should, technically, be paid for? Yeesh. I remember reading somewhere (Entertainment Weekly, maybe? someplace like that) that on both seasons of Big Brother, the contestants were expressly discouraged from singing any songs that weren't public domain, because the live internet feeds would count as "public performances." So basically, yeah, everyone from a streetcorner busker to the guy in the next cubicle who hums the Batman theme all day technically owe ASCAP and BMI bucks. S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:54:05 -0800 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing >But Tim, I hope you're joking that the espresso guy whistling "Feelings" >should, technically, be paid for? Yeesh. I doubt very much that BMI/ASCAP (sorry, I don't know who covers "Feelings") would actually prosecute, or that a jury would buy it if they did, but, in my non-lawyerly opinion, it's technically a public performance and theoretically requires a license. Let's take the Joni Mitchell song "Barangrill": The guy at the gaspumps He's got a lot of soul He sings "Merry Christmas" for you Just like Nat King Cole Assuming for the sake of argument that "Merry Christmas" is not in the public domain, the attendant's performance clearly adds to the ambience of the gas station, therefore attracting more customers, thereby benefiting from copyright violation. Ergo, BMI license time. Oh, and can I just say that when we start making commercials that use Joni Mitchell break-up songs to simultaneously promote Circuit City and the U.S. Army, the terrorists win? Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:03:05 -0700 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing At 09:54 PM 12/18/01 -0800, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: >Oh, and can I just say that when we start making commercials that use Joni >Mitchell break-up songs to simultaneously promote Circuit City and the U.S. >Army, the terrorists win? Thank you. That's nothing. Let's imagine the ad agency with the Tommy Hilfiger account, shall we? AD GUY #1: So what song can we use to jump on this whole America Rocks bandwagon? AD GUY #2: What about Creedence's "Fortunate Son"? AD GUY #1: Uh, isn't that song about how rich kids didn't have to fight in Vietnam? (pause) AD GUY #2: So what's your point? AD GUY #1: Yeah, you're right. Whadaya wanna do for lunch? Stewart NP: THE GOLDEN HITS OF LESLEY GORE ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:05:30 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > Let's take the Joni Mitchell song "Barangrill": > > The guy at the gaspumps > He's got a lot of soul > He sings "Merry Christmas" for you > Just like Nat King Cole > > Assuming for the sake of argument that "Merry Christmas" is not in the public > domain, the attendant's performance clearly adds to the ambience of the gas > station, therefore attracting more customers, thereby benefiting from copyright > violation. Ergo, BMI license time. Okay, so if *I'm* singing it, and *detracting* from the ambience & driving customers away, then BMI should pay the store. Or: if you play "Stairway to Heaven" backwards, BMI owes Satan money. > Oh, and can I just say that when we start making commercials that use Joni > Mitchell break-up songs to simultaneously promote Circuit City and the U.S. > Army, the terrorists win? Thank you. Now here's a politically oriented idea that even Roger could get behind: that's right, it's the "The Terrorists Win" drinking game. Rules are, read/watch/otherwise experience any media, and whenever anyone says that because of such-and-such, "the terrorists win," take a drink. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey, safariing to the heart of all that jazz J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Watson! Something's afoot...and it's on the end of my leg:: __Hemlock Stones__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:14:05 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing What about businesses who just play local radio for their customers? Do they have to pay the fees that the radio stations are already paying for the same performances? Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:17:07 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Licensing Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > But Tim, I hope you're joking that the espresso guy whistling "Feelings" > should, technically, be paid for? Yeesh. I think he should technically be fired! Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:41:03 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: [loud-fans] spam du jour from a spam i just got: > Do You have,or do you know someone who has a mustache? Do you wish to > experience personal growth, peace and happiness? This kind of personal growth certainly would not give me peace or happiness! Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:05:24 -0800 From: "West Moran" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] spam du jour > > Do You have,or do you know someone who has a mustache? Do you wish to > > experience personal growth, peace and happiness? > > This kind of personal growth certainly would not give me peace or > happiness! > > Jen Why not grow one and give it to a friend? Only six more growing days till Christmas, you know. Somethingly, West. ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #345 *******************************