From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #326 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Saturday, December 1 2001 Volume 01 : Number 326 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] George Harrison, R.I.P. ["West Moran" ] Re: [loud-fans] Robin Halcomb? [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] Robin Halcomb? [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] Robin Halcomb? ["glenn mcdonald" ] [loud-fans] drum machines [Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com] Re: [loud-fans] drum machines [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] drum machines [Dan Schmidt ] [loud-fans] I'm always self-promoting, it seems [Dan Schmidt ] Re: [loud-fans] drum machines ["Andrew Hamlin" ] Re: [loud-fans] drum machines ["Brandon J. Carder" ] [loud-fans] I'm waking up to...Love?? (ns) [Dana L Paoli ] Re: [loud-fans] drum machines [Michael Bowen ] Re: [loud-fans] drum machines [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] drum machines [Vivebonpop@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:53:22 -0800 From: "West Moran" Subject: [loud-fans] George Harrison, R.I.P. I just saw this information crawl across the bottom of my TV screen during Conan O'Brien. George Harrison has died here in Los Angeles. Although they didn't get into detail, I'm sure it had something to do with the cancer he's been dealing with. A few months ago, when Uncut magazine put out their "50 Greatest Beatles Songs" issue with the four different covers, I got the one with George on the cover. I'm looking at it now. I really liked him. Okay...they're breaking into the show. He died from cancer. His wife and son were at his side when it happened. And he passed away at 1:30PM yesterday, yesterday being 11/29, I assume. Damn, damn, damn. Knowing that nobody lives forever never helps. West ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:39:10 -0800 From: "West Moran" Subject: [loud-fans] And Now For Some Good News... It turns out that the rumors are true: Shel Talmy, The Who, and MCA have finally hammered out a deal. The original master tapes that have lain dormant in the Talmy bunker all these years will be remastered and released next spring. Here, look at this: www.sheltalmy.com/whotapes.htm Okay, I do have a couple of qualms. The tapes will be remastered in stereo, which will be very nice, but will remastered mono versions be made available as well? Also, it seems Senor Talmy will be handling the mixing personally, which looks like he still doesn't really want to let go of the tapes. Still, this is great news, and I can't wait until next spring. Until then, I'll be the one walking around with his fingers crossed, just in case. Hope I buy before I get sold, West. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:18:03 -0500 From: "Max Germer" Subject: [loud-fans] give the gift of weird and pretty angular pop My ex-band, The Maggies, has a new cd for sale on Garageband records. It's a collection of material from the previous three cds with a new song called Brittle. Many folks on this list have been kind to the band over the past couple of years, buying cds and attending shows, and for those of you who haven't heard of them the Maggies sound like REM covering the Cowsills and X at the same time. Or something. Anyway, the sound is not very far removed from GT/LF and would make a fine gift for the pop fan in your family. I send out the plea for help because the band needs to sell a certain number of cds through the garageband site (http://www.garageband.com/cds) within the next two months in order to get the full blown major record deal. The cd is only $10 and you'll be helping a great band get some much-deserved exposure. In the interest of full disclosure, I am receiving royalties for cds sold. I believe the rate equals about 3" per cd, so thank you. Max np - Merrie Amsterberg "Little Steps" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:39:05 -0500 From: "Max Germer" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] give the gift of weird and pretty angular pop I wrote: > In the interest of full disclosure, I am receiving royalties for cds sold. I > believe the rate equals about 3" per cd, so thank you. For some reason the 'cent' button didn't work, but I guess getting three inches per record sounds very rock 'n roll. Max ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:10:13 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] give the gift of weird and pretty angular pop On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Max Germer wrote: > For some reason the 'cent' button didn't work, but I guess getting three > inches per record sounds very rock 'n roll. > Max Yeah -- it quite puts all the other penile enlargement scams to shame. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:08:53 -0800 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: [loud-fans] dookie, as usual... Scott's attitude is completely alien to me. I've been recording for twenty years now, and have never felt like quitting for more than fifteen minutes at a time. I get antsy when I'm not working on a project, as if I had an itch I couldn't scratch. It doesn't have to be music--if I went deaf, I'd start a small press or something--but it usually is. That said, it's probably harder to deal with having been a near-celebrity than with being a complete obscurity. You can't miss what you've never had. On home vs. studio recording: in the aforementioned twenty years, I've never used a "real" studio (except as an employee, recording other people), and never wanted to. A studio might give me better sound (or not; some studios, especially affordable ones, aren't that great), but I can't imagine working with the meter running, and I prefer being my own engineer even though most professional engineers are better. I'm just way more comfortable. The exception would be a straightforward live band recording where I'm playing, but the only time I've done anything like that is the Pledge Drive album, and I decided not to spend the ten thousand dollars. (The total recording budget was $60--I bought a couple of cables--and I don't even have to count ongoing equipment costs, since I borrowed everything. It didn't hurt that everyone else in the band was a home recordist and quite capable of miking their instruments, etc.) On drum machines: I'm with doug in liking electronic percussion as long as it's appropriate and not imitative. I rarely use drum machines, though--I prefer things like mangling recordings of real drumming, sampling kitchen utensils, and direct synthesis. The problem with drum machines is that you have like six options for each drum sound, and they're the same options everyone else has and not necessarily the right ones for the song anyway. On Chris Murtland's music: don't be so humble, dude. You've got the rock. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:20:34 -0500 From: Overall_Julianne@isus.emc.com Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Novels and Films This was my first Michael Mitton film review. How impressive. I must say I enjoyed the review of _Iron Monkey_ even more. I saw both _Iron Monkey_ and _Bandits_ and you must know that you ended up seeing the better of the two films. I loved _Iron Monkey_ and Michael explains why perfectly. See for yourself at: http://www.filmatters.com/films/ironmonkey.html Happy Friday, -julianne, who's glad it's raining > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Mitton [mailto:mlmitton@phoenix.Princeton.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:59 PM > To: loud-fans@smoe.org > Subject: [loud-fans] Novels and Films > > > I've been thinking about the thread glenn started a couple days ago on > novels and film. For those still interested, my considered, > and possibly > hackneyed opinion, is up on my website: > > http://www.filmatters.com/films/harrypotter.html > > I'll at least throw out this fact for fodder: Of the 72 Best Picture > winners, at least 42 of them were based on previously > published materials. > (The majority were novels, but there were some plays, memoirs, etc.) > > --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:29:45 -0500 From: "Max Germer" Subject: [loud-fans] Robin Halcomb? Anybody have info on her? I'm listening to a Bill Frisell cd on which she sings a few songs. I love her voice. Max ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:52:14 -0700 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Robin Halcomb? At 01:29 PM 11/30/01 -0500, Max Germer wrote: >Anybody have info on her? I'm listening to a Bill Frisell cd on which she >sings a few songs. I love her voice. I haven't heard her later records, but Frisell (as well as his partner Wayne Horvitz, who I think is or was married to Holcomb) plays on 1990's ROBIN HOLCOMB, which is very much like the songs she sang on that Frisell album, only a touch more folk-influenced. If you like the Frisell, you'll like this. S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:55:04 -0800 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Robin Halcomb? Her self-titled album is one of my absolute favorites, and contains the song I want played at my funeral (you'll figure out which one). ROCKABYE is nearly as good. LITTLE THREE is mostly piano instrumentals--it's fine, but I like her songs better. I didn't know she'd been singing with Frisell. I'll have to grab that. Oh, and it's "Holcomb"--wouldn't want your searches to come up empty. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:57:45 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Robin Halcomb? Robin Holcomb, wife of Wayne Horvitz. She has three or four solo albums, which for me are odd and not entirely successful amalgams of pleasant folk music and deliberately oblique modern-classical digressions. I like her voice, too, but always end up thinking it would be better in more songs than "compositions". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:45:12 -0600 From: Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com Subject: [loud-fans] drum machines I've used drum machines live and in recordings, and will offer the following insights (if these observations qualify for that status): Live 1. Don't bring the machine with you. Make a DAT, or CD or tape or whatever, and use that. You decrease your probability for mid-song technical failure. 2. Give the machine its own unique sound source. Simply running a drum machine through a PA when there are other instruments or even just vocals running through the same output seems generally to result in either not being able to hear the drums, which means you will get off rhythm (you can't look at a machine's right arm falling on the snare, so you gotta be able to hear it), or in the mix being disproportionately drum heavy, which is a drag for the audience. Having the drum track in a dedicated speaker gives you the option of changing what you can or can't hear by moving your ears. Recording I've in the past gotten passably decent simulations of "a person playing drums" (which probably qualifies in a substantial way for criticism under the McLuhan "Horses are fine; so are books," rule, oh well) from no more than an Alesis SR-16, which is not a sophisticated machine. The tricks I've hit on are: 1. Don't quantize. Program at a much slower speed than you intend to play back, to attain accuracy, but keep the subtle variations in timing. Programmming multiple variations of a part instead of simply looping helps this impression, too. 2. When programming, think about what one person with two hands and feet could play on a kit; don't place, for example, a cymbal, a snare, and a tom all on the same beat. 3. Since every hit on "bright snare 3" (or whatever) will, by virtue of being the same sample, sound exactly the same, composite sounds made of two or three variations of the drum type in question simultaneously overlaid, being used semi-randomly will reduce the possibility that the track will sound mechanical and repetitive. At first glance, this might seem to violate #2 above, but the actual result, when executed effectively, is of a single, tonally rich, drum sound, with ongoing variations in each iteration, rather than two or three drums being struck at once. This is particularly effective with snare sounds. You're still better off with a person playing though. pa-rum-pa-pum-pum, - --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:02:55 -0800 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines >an Alesis >SR-16, which is not a sophisticated machine. It's all relative; the only drum machine I own at present was made by Hammond in the 70s and has buttons that say things like "Tango", "Bossa" and "Liverpool". Or I can just use the clock noise. If you detune the crash cymbal on the SR-16 down an octave or so, it makes a bitchin' gong. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 2001 15:05:24 -0500 From: Dan Schmidt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines Tim_Walters@digidesign.com writes: | If you detune the crash cymbal on the SR-16 down an octave or so, it | makes a bitchin' gong. A lot of pop music sounds really menacing in a great way if you play it at half speed (which brings everything down an octave as a side effect). I remember "Spinning Wheel" turning into this big clanking-chains monstrosity. (We were doing a bunch of stuff with classic rock at work, don't blame me.) - -- http://www.dfan.org ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 2001 15:14:17 -0500 From: Dan Schmidt Subject: [loud-fans] I'm always self-promoting, it seems I work at a company that makes music software, and we just released a music-based game for the PlayStation 2 called Frequency, published by Sony. It's got a beat-matching mechanic at its core, though there's a lot more going on than the standard examples of genre like Beatmania. We were also aiming for a music selection that's a lot more hip than the stuff usually found in these sorts of games; here's the list of artists: Akrobatik BT The Crystal Method Curve DJ QBert Dub Pistols Ethan Eves Fear Factory Freezepop Funkstar Deluxe Jungle Brothers Juno Reactor LoFi Allstars Meat Beat Manifesto No Doubt Orbit Orbital Paul Oakenfold PowerMan 5000 Robotkid vs InnerSekt Roni Size & Reprazent Surgecore Symbion Project Tony Trippi Mostly techno and electronica, though the range is pretty good. No Loud Family, sorry. It's getting some great reviews, woo hoo, see for example . Anyway, if this sounds like the sort of thing you're interested in, take a look. I'm pretty proud of it. - -- http://www.dfan.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:59:17 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines For recording: just play the drum machine by hand in real time. It can sound almost exactly like the real thing, especially if you use a pressure sensitive keyboard so that the hits are at different velocities. If your drum machine allows you, record the drum midi in real time, then go back and futz with this and that to fix/add mistakes. - --dana On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:45:12 -0600 Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com writes: > I've used drum machines live and in recordings, and will offer the > following > insights (if these observations qualify for that status): > > Live > 1. Don't bring the machine with you. Make a DAT, or CD or tape or > whatever, > and use that. You decrease your probability for mid-song technical > failure. > 2. Give the machine its own unique sound source. Simply running a > drum machine > through a PA when there are other instruments or even just vocals > running > through the same output seems generally to result in either not > being able to > hear the drums, which means you will get off rhythm (you can't look > at a > machine's right arm falling on the snare, so you gotta be able to > hear it), or > in the mix being disproportionately drum heavy, which is a drag for > the > audience. Having the drum track in a dedicated speaker gives you > the option of > changing what you can or can't hear by moving your ears. > > Recording > I've in the past gotten passably decent simulations of "a person > playing drums" > (which probably qualifies in a substantial way for criticism under > the McLuhan > "Horses are fine; so are books," rule, oh well) from no more than an > Alesis > SR-16, which is not a sophisticated machine. The tricks I've hit on > are: > 1. Don't quantize. Program at a much slower speed than you intend > to play > back, to attain accuracy, but keep the subtle variations in timing. > Programmming multiple variations of a part instead of simply looping > helps this > impression, too. > 2. When programming, think about what one person with two hands and > feet could > play on a kit; don't place, for example, a cymbal, a snare, and a > tom all on the > same beat. > 3. Since every hit on "bright snare 3" (or whatever) will, by > virtue of being > the same sample, sound exactly the same, composite sounds made of > two or three > variations of the drum type in question simultaneously overlaid, > being used > semi-randomly will reduce the possibility that the track will sound > mechanical > and repetitive. At first glance, this might seem to violate #2 > above, but the > actual result, when executed effectively, is of a single, tonally > rich, drum > sound, with ongoing variations in each iteration, rather than two or > three drums > being struck at once. This is particularly effective with snare > sounds. > > You're still better off with a person playing though. > > pa-rum-pa-pum-pum, > --Dennis > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:08:43 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines >A lot of pop music sounds really menacing in a great way if you play it >at half speed (which brings everything down an octave as a side effect). >I remember "Spinning Wheel" turning into this big clanking-chains >monstrosity. (We were doing a bunch of stuff with classic rock at >work, don't blame me.) Oh hell yeah. In college I had this enormous, nominally-portable GE stereo from the 70's, complete with a 4-speed turntable. I'll never forget side one of LED ZEPPELIN IV played at 16 RPM. And the Beach Boys all turn into tenors, Andy "Let a fool be made serviceable according to his folly." - --Joseph Conrad, from UNDER WESTERN EYES ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:11:52 -0800 From: "Brandon J. Carder" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines > Oh hell yeah. In college I had this enormous, nominally-portable GE stereo > from the 70's, complete with a 4-speed turntable. I'll never forget side > one of LED ZEPPELIN IV played at 16 RPM. > > And the Beach Boys all turn into tenors, > > Andy > I must confess now to owning a 33 1/3 sludge-rock record for some time without realizing that it was in fact a 45 RPM spoken word rock record. It was Joe Pop o Pie's second LP and I honestly thought it sounded great that way. Perhaps this is our solution to getting Scott the acclaim he desires. Only problem is it kinda makes him sound like Dave Matthews. Hmm..... bjc np Pram _the stars are so big..._ (at full speed) "All you need is love" - - the DMB ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:40:30 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines "Brandon J. Carder" wrote: > > I must confess now to owning a 33 1/3 sludge-rock record for some time > without realizing that it was in fact a 45 RPM spoken word rock record. It > was Joe Pop o Pie's second LP and I honestly thought it sounded great that > way. I like those very few records that aren't "right" at any speed, like the vinyl singles of Butthole Surfers' "Ladysniff" and Tears For Fears "Sea Song" (the 45 one- the 12" version is normal speed). And if you have a strobe turntable, you can find that point in between 33 1/3 and 45 that would be considered normal. I was disappointed to find that the version of "Ladysniff" on CD is at very normal speed, and I don't own the single. WPRB used to have a lot of fun with it, though. You never knew which speed you were going to get, and sometimes they would play it at both, back to back. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:44:24 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] I'm waking up to...Love?? (ns) My local store finally got that new Belle and Sebastian single "I'm Waking Up To Us", and hey, they seem to have turned into Love circa "Forever Changes" on the title track. I wouldn't want to start a fight, so I'll leave it indefinite, but it might be their best song. Things get back to normal with "I Love My Car" although the lyric is a little more glib than usual. The final track, "Marx and Engels" is standard issue. Still, that first track really points a way out of the corner that the band has boxed itself into lately. Very good news since I still kinda like them (as long as they don't let the girl or that other guy sing). - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:10:52 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] give the gift of weird and pretty angular pop On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Max Germer wrote: > In the interest of full disclosure, I am receiving royalties for cds sold. I > believe the rate equals about 3" per cd, so thank you. Three inches per CD? Is it just a coincidence that that's the number of inches that spam circulating about promises to increase one's penis length by? Let's all help make Max huge! - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::the sea is the night asleep in the daytime:: __Robert Desnos__ np: begin: Meat Beat Manifesto _Actual Sounds and Voices_ finish: Marmoset _Record in Red_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:24:04 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines On 30 Nov 2001, Dan Schmidt wrote: > A lot of pop music sounds really menacing in a great way if you play it > at half speed (which brings everything down an octave as a side effect). > I remember "Spinning Wheel" turning into this big clanking-chains > monstrosity. (We were doing a bunch of stuff with classic rock at > work, don't blame me.) Not just pop music: I think that's one of Angelo Badalamente's secrets. Often the string parts sound as if they were recorded that way. Particularly effective with a long but subtle reverb, I think. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::I've been praying a lot lately - it's because I no longer have a TV:: __Mark Eitzel__ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:33:24 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines >I like those very few records that aren't "right" at any speed, like the >vinyl singles of Butthole Surfers' "Ladysniff" and Tears For Fears "Sea >Song" (the 45 one- the 12" version is normal speed). And if you have a >strobe turntable, you can find that point in between 33 1/3 and 45 that >would be considered normal. I was disappointed to find that the version >of "Ladysniff" on CD is at very normal speed, and I don't own the >single. WPRB used to have a lot of fun with it, though. You never knew >which speed you were going to get, and sometimes they would play it at >both, back to back. Wow, Butthole Surfers and Tears For Fears united in turntable dysfunction! My friend Sam and I couldn't quite figure out that different Butthole Surfers songs (from vinyl) were supposed to be played at differing speeds. To this day, we both think "Movin' To Florida" sounds much better at the slower speed. And don't forget the vinyl incarnation of Ween's THE POD, where I think you're supposed to bump the 33/45 knob back and forth, at the end of every song. I definitely prefer "Frank" on 45... The Birthday Party 12-inches on 33, now there's Satan incarnate, Andy "Philip Seymour Hoffman's schedule only permitted him to be on set for four days, and he had the flu the whole time." - --from the "trivia" section of ALMOST FAMOUS' entry at the Internet Movie Database. Hoffman played Lester Bangs, who in real life died from ingesting Darvon and Valium during a severe flu bout. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:42:12 -0500 From: Michael Bowen Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines At 03:05 PM 11/30/2001 -0500, Dan Schmidt wrote: >A lot of pop music sounds really menacing in a great way if you play it >at half speed (which brings everything down an octave as a side effect). >I remember "Spinning Wheel" turning into this big clanking-chains >monstrosity. (We were doing a bunch of stuff with classic rock at >work, don't blame me.) A little trick we used to do back on the radio in 1978; play the Atlanta Rhythm Section's "Imaginary Lover" at around 38 rpm and announce it as a new Fleetwood Mac song. Sped up to the right point, the ARS' lead singer sounded just like Stevie Nicks. MB ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:45:41 -0700 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines At 12:02 PM 11/30/01 -0800, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: >>an Alesis >>SR-16, which is not a sophisticated machine. > >It's all relative; the only drum machine I own at present was made by Hammond in >the 70s and has buttons that say things like "Tango", "Bossa" and "Liverpool". >Or I can just use the clock noise. Okay, tango and bossa are obvious, but what's "Liverpool"? S ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:19:26 EST From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] drum machines As a drummer, my natural reaction is supposed to be that, unless it's a (original) Slingerland or Pearl set with Zildjian cybals or something, then I'm supposed to stick my nose up at human-free drum machines, but that would be like a keyboardist who only uses a piano hating a synth (Fairlight=Death). That kind of attitude is limiting. Obviously I would think most drummers prefer the sound of "real" drums, but machines have their place. One of my favorite recordings (that I mentioned this week) is Steve Kilbey's first solo record, "Unearthed," which relies on a drum machine, and I cannot imagine the record without the quaint, home grown click-clacking. Real drums would take away from the record's gentleness, intimacy and charm, and would veer too close to a Church recording. The only thing that I cannot tolerate is the synthesized metronome on my mother's early '80s Suzuki electronic piano...it is maddening. It has this annoying piercing sound, not the warm resonant click of a real metronome. She got rid of a beautiful late 19th century upright for this thing back when I was in h.s., and her reason was that it used less space and didn't need tuning, but I still think she went temporarily insane in the musical instrument store. - -Mark ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #326 *******************************