From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #325 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Friday, November 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 325 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... ["Chris Murtland" ] [loud-fans] das lou weed, das Belle und Sebastian (ns) [Dana L Paoli ] Re: [loud-fans] Couldn't resist [Vivebonpop@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... Tripod, steady-cam, soft lighting, er, no, I mean http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=011129011020208061082200429108/s earch/g=home/detail/base_id/51339 |Just what kind of toys are you talking about here, Chris? | |Jen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:26:21 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: [loud-fans] tokay, as heartened... >*SO* much better, that much sooner. (Could I make the next record in my >living room for pennies? No, I really couldn't. I don't think Scott >could either; while most of the last couple records WERE done in his >living room, he still did drum tracking in a studio. I can't afford Neve >mic pres and API consoles; since I can hear the difference, I need to >rent access to them.) Since you mention drum tracking here, and since Chris mentioned his need for a drummer in his post, I just thought I'd ask: what are your thoughts about using drum machines, in the studio and/or live. On the one hand, music-making might be much easier with one less person to worry about--not to mention less gear, far fewer mike setups, and far less expensive tracking. On the other hand, some folks just aren't comfortable with a drum machine's lack of spontaneity, or the stigma that still exists against such machines in some quarters. Some of my more favorite recordings were done in living rooms or the equivalent, for close to pennies--the first Big Black ep comes to mind, or anything by Jandek, or anything by Robert Johnson--but my broader, more contemporary point is, I find that home recording is getting harder and harder to distinguish from non-home recording. I wasn't sure about almost-completely "Protooled" albums at first. Sparks' BALLS and Poe's HAUNTED didn't do much for me, though in fairness I think that goes as much to the songs as to the textures. I'm awfully impressed, though, texturewise and songwise both, with Leonard Cohen's TEN NEW SONGS, and album which contains very little instrumentation that didn't come out of a keyboard and/or Sharon Robinson's computer, and seems to have been recorded, almost completely, in Ms. Robinson's computer room and Mr. Cohen's garage--where he keeps a microphone setup connected to his own computer. Robinson and Cohen had to cut vocal tracks before sunrise, though, because the garage isn't soundproofed and they needed to avoid chirpy birds. Still, I'm not a techhead, and I look forward to the opinions of those who are. Randy Peppler was a one-hit wonder, Andy "8:25 AM My dick is like a ballcock nut toilet hose. My dick costs $3.97. My dick is white and seems to have some sort of webbing on it." - --from the web journal of a guy who agreed, on a bet, to stay inside a Home Depot for two consecutive 16-hour business days, http://www.blueberryjohnsons.com/home_depot/hdlog.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:43:40 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] das lou weed, das Belle und Sebastian (ns) I was just going through the playbill for POEtry, the collaboration between Lou Reed, Robert Wilson and a bunch of Germans that's currently at BAM. After the debacle of "The Black Rider" I steer well clear of the next wave, but an item in the playbill catches my eye: "This year Zeitkratzer [das group der Germans who maken das musik avante-garde] will perform Metal Machine Music..." Kind of like that Bang on a Can/Eno thing. Next up, the Kronos Quartet performing "Twin Infinitives" at Carnegie Hall. I'd probably go to see a live MMM thing, but I'll bet it's in Germany. Now that I think of it, maybe it already happened. There's not actually that much of "this year" left. Wow, I hope I didn't miss it. So, anyone heard that new Belle and Sebastian single yet? I read somewhere that it's their best since Lazy Line Painter Jane, which would make me very happy. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:35:37 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... At Thursday 11/29/2001 11:08 AM -0500, dmw wrote: >* And Rog is *so* right. His Reign of Frogs record isn't perfect, but >it's better in most important ways than a lot of goth/industrial records, >even by bands that don't tour, that sell better and get played in clubs. >That record HAS a market share -- it's not huge, but it's probably at >least 10-20 times as many copies as are still sitting in Rog's house. Do >Rog or his erstwhile bandmates have the resources to connect with that >market share? Hardly. Thanks for the support, doug. Yes, we didn't have the resources, but I'm sure we could've done a lot better and sold some copies if we had gotten off our lazy asses and done some publicizing. It takes a tremendous amount of commitment to sell yourself and get your name/record out there. When we started out doing this (and I think this applies to many nascent bands out there), I was mostly in it for the social interaction (with the other band members) and for the creative outlet. There's a great deal of satisfaction that comes (for me, at least) in just *completing* something, no matter what it sounds like. I wasn't naive enough to make me think this was gonna get me chicks. At some point, we started saying to our selves, and others would say to us also, "Why are you doing this just for yourself? What's the point? Why don't you at least *try* to see if other people would get into what you're doing?" So we gave it a whirl and found out that people are not going to beat a path to your door just because you think you have a good product. It sure didn't help that we sort of went our separate ways after completing the record - one band member even moved out of state. I really truly believe that you can have all the musical talent in the world (and I'm not saying we did) and it's not going to do a bit of good unless you can market yourself. That's a helluva commitment, and for us introverts, it takes the fun out of it. And I'm not even talking about rejection and thick skins. It's a LOT of hard work. If you can get a record company (or a promotion company) to do some of that work, fine, but you're still going to have to sell yourself to the label in the first place, and then keep on selling yourself to the (potential) fans. But hey, rock 'n roll is all about getting up on stage and basking in the cheers of adoring fans, isn't it? No, I don't entirely think so, but that kind of attitude definitely helps if you don't just want to masturbate. Which brings me to Scott (okay, maybe I could've segued that better...). Much as we all enjoy his humility and his refreshingly self-deprecating attitude, I just don't think that "making accessible music that gets my feelings across" jibs very well with "I won't go knocking doors to see how many tickets to me I can sell". I think Scott has to either come to terms with the fact that he makes enjoyable music for himself and a small group of devoted fans and no longer fret about mass acceptance, or he should just go all out balls-to-the-wall crazy and dive into the evil music biz pool full-force with no nose plug. (Or he could do what he is apparently doing now, but I'd rather not entertain that as a life-long scenario.) I don't see Scott as the type who would get into self-releasing (there we go again) because I think he would want to concentrate on the music instead of the promotion. Therefore, he needs a record label, unless he goes with scenario one above. And who knows, that scenario may eventually pay off in some form of mass acceptance anyway, a la Elliot Smith etc. I'm trying very hard here to find a point to my rambling. I guess I'm maybe a little upset at the contradictory attitudes Scott has towards himself and his music. I think he could be become a success (according to his own parameters) if he stays the course, but I can certainly see why he is discouraged. If it's just about the music and about getting other people to relate to the music, fine. But these days that doesn't happen in a vacuum. You have to find your niche and milk it. There's a lot of *stuff* out there competing for everyone's attention, and I don't think the solution is to give up competing. But what the solution is, I have no idea. Apologies to Scott if I've misinterpreted him or put words in his mouth... Later. --Cynical Rog - -- When toads are not enough: http://www.reignoffrogs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:32:38 EST From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Couldn't resist In a message dated 11/29/01 12:53:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, smholt@ix.netcom.com writes: > Someone with my name is also given a thank you on TVI, which probably > isn't important to everyone else who doesn't have my name, but I've been > meaning to recommend Yuji Oniki's new album to anyone who enjoyed the > last couple of R.E.M. albums, since TVI sounds to me like a more focused > version of all the best parts of UP and REVEAL, meaning that I like it > quite a bit. > > Sorry man. I saw your name in there as well, and I should've mentioned that I did. It was all those drugs I took in my crib in the sixties. Too many black spots.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:32:57 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Dana L Paoli wrote: > let's not lose sight of the fact that what Scott wants to do is to make > accessible music that gets his feelings across. > > I say we figure out some way to stop him. You're slaying me. Okay, how about this plan: let's instigate a campaign of massive public indifference to Scott's recordings. That way, he'll become discouraged, and not make any more. Do you think that'll work? - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::pushing the pencil not the envelope:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:33:08 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] tokay, as heartened... On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Andrew Hamlin wrote: > Since you mention drum tracking here, and since Chris mentioned his need for > a drummer in his post, I just thought I'd ask: what are your thoughts about > using drum machines, in the studio and/or live. On the one hand, > music-making might be much easier with one less person to worry about--not > to mention less gear, far fewer mike setups, and far less expensive > tracking. On the other hand, some folks just aren't comfortable with a drum > machine's lack of spontaneity, or the stigma that still exists against such > machines in some quarters. Right now, in 2001, I think drum machines are great when what you want is a drum machine, in much the same way I can see preferring a synthesizer to a real piano. I don't think they're good substitues for good human drummers, unless-- *maybe* -- they're extensively programmed by good human drummers. I find them constricting -- for a while I was playing bass with a really good surf guitarist and a drum machine -- I think it was very good discipline for my timing, but it also made me realize just how much I value the timing tension between a really good, sensitive rhythm section and the 'melody' instruments, not to mention that i will probably never be a great bass player. I like to push and pull beats to increase dramatic tension, I like to play with tempo a little bit. I also, personally, hate to take complicated things that might break down on stage. If a pedal craps out I can do without, if an amp craps out I can probably borrow *some*thing from another band. If the drummer craps out...well... > Some of my more favorite recordings were done in living rooms or the > equivalent, for close to pennies--the first Big Black ep comes to mind, or > anything by Jandek, or anything by Robert Johnson--but my broader, more > contemporary point is, I find that home recording is getting harder and > harder to distinguish from non-home recording. I wasn't sure about I'm not against home recording per se, but I think very few records I love have really been made for 'pennies' -- although there are many for which I don't know recording details. THere are a couple things at work... first, recording at home, onto a computer or a comparitively cheap tape machine doesn't necessarily mean that it's cheap...some of the people doing four track stuff have microphones and pre-amps that cost much more than their tracking gear. I firmly believe, at this point, that the microphone and the pre-amp are the MOST important parts of the post-performance signal chain, because they determine just how much signal you have to work with. It's also where most of what sounds 'real' 'detailed', etc. all those ear geek words come from. I will say that I read an interview with Crhis Knox or one of those New Zealand cats that I found absolutley humbling -- they were like, after the first three records, we got a $100 dollar microphone. But then, I think there are certain styles for which it's much easier to get away with that. Second, often I think it's the presence of a comparitively objective second set of ears that makes the difference, as much as the gear that's used. I think we may be only a couple hardware generations away from having gear that a single individual cna reasonably afford that IS for a ll practicl purposes indistinguishable from the classic stuff, but I don't think we're there yet. tangentially: I was in a room in which a bunch of engineers listened to three things: a live performance through a 56Khz microphone, a 48bit recording of the performance, and a 24bit recording. It was not, unfortunately, a blind test. Most of the engineers seemed to agree that the performance and the 48bit recording were close, but not the same (I wasn't sure I could have told if the test was blind.) my conclusion is that with a 96 or 128 bit recording (theoretically capturing frequencies up to 48 or 64Khz) probably virtually no human could reliably distinguish a differnece. Kevin Salem's new record is a ProTools record and I think it's really really good. BUt I talked to him in some detail about the recording of it, and quite a bit of it (most of what sounds like a real piano, for example) was done to tape first. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:37:51 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, jenny grover wrote: > Chris Murtland wrote: > > > > I have never been completely satisfied > > with recording I've done in the bedroom (the music, anyway!), despite > > the fact that I keep buying new toys to get to that point. > > Just what kind of toys are you talking about here, Chris? Oh, just stuff to help with the self-release, I imagine. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::flag on the moon...how'd it get there?:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:45:00 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] tokay, as heartened... dmw wrote: > > I also, personally, hate to take complicated things that might break down > on stage. If a pedal craps out I can do without, if an amp craps out I can > probably borrow *some*thing from another band. If the drummer craps > out...well... Of course, a human drummer can crap out, too, and some of them are actually more complicated to take out than drum machines. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:44:00 -0500 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... 48 Horsepower SuperSonic Hoover with Whirlwind Action |Oh, just stuff to help with the self-release, I imagine. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:47:09 -0800 (PST) From: mweber@library.berkeley.edu (Matthew Weber) Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hokay, as threatened... At 10:32 PM 11/29/1, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >Okay, how about this plan: let's instigate a campaign of massive public >indifference to Scott's recordings. That way, he'll become discouraged, >and not make any more. I could put up a web page called FORGET ABOUT SCOTT MILLER! We could all call radio stations begging them *not* to play his records... Matt In ancient times the warriors with their leaders fell upon defenseless inhabitants and vanquished and plundered them, and all of them, according to the part they took, their braver, their cruelty, divided up the booty, and it was obvious to every warrior that the violence practiced by him was advantageous to him. But now the armed men, who are for the most part taken from among the working men, go against defenseless people, strikers, rioters, or inhabitants of foreign countries, and vanquish and plunder them (that is, compel them to give up their labor), not for themselves, but for those who do not even take part in their subjugation. The only difference between conquerors and governments is this, that the conquerors with their warriors attacked defenseless inhabitants and, in case of their nonsubmission, carried out their threats of tortures and murders, while the governments, in case of nonsubmission, do not themselves practice torture and murder on the defenseless inhabitants, but cause this to be done by deceived and specially bestialized men, who are taken from among the very masses they oppress. Leo Tolstoy, _The Slavery of Our Times_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:05:25 EST From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] tokay, as heartened... In a message dated 11/29/01 11:34:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, dmw@radix.net writes: > I find them constricting -- for a while I was playing bass with a really > good surf guitarist and a drum machine Echo and the Surfmen? :O) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:59:00 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Mitton Subject: [loud-fans] Novels and Films I've been thinking about the thread glenn started a couple days ago on novels and film. For those still interested, my considered, and possibly hackneyed opinion, is up on my website: http://www.filmatters.com/films/harrypotter.html I'll at least throw out this fact for fodder: Of the 72 Best Picture winners, at least 42 of them were based on previously published materials. (The majority were novels, but there were some plays, memoirs, etc.) - --Michael ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #325 *******************************