From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #305 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, November 15 2001 Volume 01 : Number 305 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Advisories [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Military Edition) [JRT456@aol.c] Re: [loud-fans] Advisories [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] Advisories [Dana L Paoli ] Re: [loud-fans] Letting go of the Buchanan urban legend.. ["O Geier" ] Re: [loud-fans] Advisories [Dan Sallitt ] Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary Edition) [Dennis_McGreevy@praxai] Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary Edition) ["Andrew Hamlin" ] [loud-fans] Smash a glass and cry... [Jer Fairall ] Re: [loud-fans] Smash a glass and cry... ["glenn mcdonald" ] RE: [loud-fans] stumper? (ns) ["R. Kevin Doyle" ] Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary Edition) ["Andrew Hamlin" ] Re: [loud-fans] Lida Husik [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] Smash a glass and cry... [Jer Fairall ] [loud-fans] Anton Barbeau in New York [Sue Trowbridge ] [loud-fans] A repetitive, yet difficult question... ["Francis J H Park" <] Re: [loud-fans] Lida Husik [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Military Edition) [ste] [loud-fans] Can-Am storage sale [steve ] Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary , Edition) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] [loud-fans] Soldiers voting (for Presidents and pop music) [JRT456@aol.co] Re: [loud-fans] The Kingdom [steve ] [loud-fans] firing the Buchanan yet again [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey > Dude...! "Oui" is as dead as Merritt Butrick. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:28:44 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Military Edition) In a message dated 11/13/01 10:57:11 PM, steveschiavo@mac.com writes: << I've read that the Bush operatives got lots of obviously defective military ballots counted. >> You likely read that proud Democratic operatives were battling to save our country from military ballots with a missing or outdated postmark...even though Florida and federal law supports the counting of overseas military ballots that are postmarked no later than the date of the election, or (and here's the important distinction) ballots signed and dated no later than the date of the election. Unfortunately, other people read the Democratic memo that got leaked where lawyers were advised to challenge military ballots before anybody got a chance to open the envelope and see if the ballot was properly signed and dated. That was when the public began to figure out that the popular vote wasn't much of a Democratic concern. <....and there were military people bragging to the media about how they were able to vote twice.>> So you read a claim that military people were bragging to the media, or did you see this in the media? Maybe they were just proud that their vote got a second count after the Democratic memo was exposed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:39:46 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Advisories In a message dated 11/13/01 10:20:06 PM, aaron@eecs.harvard.edu writes: << I don't think people who actually have sex read Playboy, old bean. >> Judging from some events culled from the readership, all the college students seem to be doing pretty well. That said, there's enough of a Monty Python nerd contingent to keep me from suggesting that people who actually have sex read Playboy. Speaking of which, you might want to avoid using British colloquialisms. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:41:59 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Advisories I'm still unclear on whether "Advisories" are supposed to be accurate, inaccurate, or just inflammatory. In keeping with the uncertainty, I'll add a number 12 which is accurate for me, inaccurate for some, and inflammatory for others: 12. U.S. Maple's "Talker" is by far their best album, and an essential purchase for any music fan. Also has the most ingenious low-budget packaging in recent memory. Skip "Sang Phat" and "Acre Thrills" and make a beeline for the Gira-produced one. Thanks to Dan for the info on the meteors!! - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:37:12 +0000 From: "O Geier" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Letting go of the Buchanan urban legend.. <> Apples and Oranges, my friend. When you're trying to return a gift you gave someone because it didn't fit, or your friend had one already, and the clerk says to you 'Too bad, if you're too stupid to know what your friend wants or needs, you shouldn't be buying them anything', I hope you'll remember Election 2000. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:09:16 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 24? On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Dan Sallitt wrote: > > ground the action. No crosscuts either -- if I remember right the camera > > moves only in ways that a physical object could move. > > I saw it, but I didn't even notice the real-time aspects. I believe > there was cutting, though, even within scenes, wasn't there? - Dan I think you're right about cuts w/in scenes, now that I think about it, but I don't think it ever cut back and forth between simultaneous scenes in two different locales. - ------------------------------------------------- Mayo-Wells Media Workshop dmw@ http://www.mwmw.com mwmw.com Web Development * Multimedia Consulting * Hosting ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:41:47 -0500 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Advisories > Thanks to Dan for the info on the meteors!! Here's what I posted privately: - ---- Hello, all. Cruel as it might be to alert you East Coasters to an astronomical event (cloud cover always seems to do us in), I thought I'd let you know that one of the best meteor showers of our lifetimes is probably going to happen early Sunday morning. The Leonid meteor shower famously perks up every 33 years. We've recently gotten a lot better at predicting when the showers will occur and how impressive they'll be, and the experts are pretty sure that we in North America will see a whole lot of meteors on the morning of November 18, 2001 and the morning of November 19, 2002. This year, the peak hours should be 4 to 6 am Eastern Standard Time, and 1 to 3 am Pacific Standard Time. If you plan to watch, give it an hour on either side. And get away from city lights if you can. Predictions vary, but we're being told that we'll see 2000-4000 meteors per hour during the peak hours this year. As a point of comparison, your basic Perseid or Geminid meteor shower - usually the best showers of the year - run 60-120 meteors per hour. Next year might be even better, though the full moon will get in the way. This year should be moon-free. Me, I'm heading out to SW Arizona, where the chances of cloud cover are relatively small. Even if you're not in an area with ideal weather, it might be worth taking a chance on the Leonids this year and next. - - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:54:54 -0600 From: Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary Edition) For the next election, I'll use this widely-read, influential forum to propose that unless a victory which is both decisive and comprehensible is won in America's *New* War, that anyone who attempts to vote to remove our current leadership from office be indefinitely interred in a camp as a suspected terrorist, and their voting privileges be retroactively suspended. A decent ad campaign should be sufficient to silence any dissenting crybabies and convince the majority of Americans that such an action is constitutionally acceptable, under the circumstances. from Chicago, birthplace of modern democracy, - --Dennis, contemplating forming a band using Laibach as my model, and the new patriotism as my theme, and calling it "Homeland", an offense which would never have flown a year ago, but now methinks good Americans might actually be honor bound to take such a gesture seriously. P.S. Recently read _Dead And Gone_ by Andrew Vachss, where in one of the characters makes the observation that the notion of a "homeland" is a primary characteristic of the ideologies of groups organized around race based politics. The same character also makes the observation that "normally watching a woman a woman walk up stairs is one of life's great pleasures," but that the desert fatigues worn by, and the automatic rifle carried by the woman being viewed while noting this ruins it for him. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:14:47 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary Edition) And for still further reading: http://slate.msn.com/?id=2058638 "When men race against death, it's always a dead heat!" Andy "My two kinds of favorite places in the world are coral reefs and rain forests. I don't know how I would vote if I had to choose between them, had to decide that I could only go to reefs and never to forests again, or vice versa. My idea has long been to live by a broad, sandy beach with a rain forest behind me and a coral reef offshore before me, with either open to exploration or contemplation. Maybe someday I'll achieve the ideal. There are places where it is possible--some of the islands of the South Sea, or Trinidad and Tobago in the West Indies, for instance." - --Marston Bates, from THE FOREST AND THE SEA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:07:53 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] Satori with Tori (ns) She's on Jay Leno tonight. I think she's on the Late Late show on Friday. And I missed Emo Phillips last night on the Late Late show. Damn!!! Note to self: buy an antenna for the tv. - --dana np: Tortoise/"Millions Now Living..." which has aged better than I would have thought. Well, the first track, anyway. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:10:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jer Fairall Subject: [loud-fans] Smash a glass and cry... Too Much Joy have a new live album and Christmas single coming out! The live one will be officially released in stores next year but if you order through their site (www.sayhername.com) both will be shipped around the end of this month. Woo hoo! Jer np: Cyndi Lauper, SHE'S SO UNUSUAL (remastered w/ bonus tracks, etc.) ===== Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:39:13 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Smash a glass and cry... > Too Much Joy have a new live album I've heard it. It's good. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:03:14 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] stumper? (ns) A co-worker is looking for a song called "The Tale [Tail?] of Dickie Dragon." Apparently, the person who performed this released an album in the '70s called "Sesame Street Rubber Duckie and other Favorites" which is apperntly *not* an official CTW release. Fifteen minutes on the internet and I come up empty. Anyone remember this from their youth? - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:10:19 -1000 From: "R. Kevin Doyle" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] stumper? (ns) Oh my goodness. That was from a collection of songs about Dragons, headlined by "Puff the Magic Dragon." That may have even been the title of the album. I remember that from when I was a wee lad back in the early 1970's. Good luck! - -----Original Message----- From: owner-loud-fans@smoe.org [mailto:owner-loud-fans@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Dana L Paoli Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:03 AM To: loud-fans@smoe.org Subject: [loud-fans] stumper? (ns) A co-worker is looking for a song called "The Tale [Tail?] of Dickie Dragon." Apparently, the person who performed this released an album in the '70s called "Sesame Street Rubber Duckie and other Favorites" which is apperntly *not* an official CTW release. Fifteen minutes on the internet and I come up empty. Anyone remember this from their youth? - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:56:40 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary Edition) And so long as I'm cut'n'pasting away: http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/11/14/florida/index_np.html Premium, alas, so that's as much of it as I can read. But if someone with a key cares to cut'n'paste, I certainly won't object. DVD or some BET? Andy "One minute you're taking a dump behind the 600 block of J Street, and the next you're at the receiving end of a ticket being written by a bike cop who whooshed onto the scene altogether too fast. Life's like that." - --from the voluminous, highly colorful "Police Log" column of Kevin L. Hoover for the "Arcata Eye," http://www.arcataeye.com/police/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:04:29 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Smash a glass and cry... >np: Cyndi Lauper, SHE'S SO UNUSUAL (remastered w/ >bonus tracks, etc.) Wow, is this a recent issue? Can't find any trace of such at CDNow... What are the bonus tracks? Hoping that live version of "Money Changes Everything" is in there (lost my 45!), Andy "Eenie, Meenie, Miney, Moe, and SPEEEEEEED!" - --DeAnne Hamlin on the currently-popular "How to tell if one of your cat's using drugs!" e-mail. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:57:50 -0500 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: [loud-fans] Lida Husik Anyone on this list familiar with this singer/songwriter? I just read a rave about her FLY STEREOPHONIC album but it didn't tell me very much about what she sounds like. Any information and opinions would be appreciated. Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:47:42 -0700 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Lida Husik At 04:57 PM 11/14/01 -0500, Aaron Milenski wrote: >Anyone on this list familiar with this singer/songwriter? I just read a >rave about her FLY STEREOPHONIC album but it didn't tell me very much about >what she sounds like. Any information and opinions would be appreciated. FLY STEREOPHONIC is unusual for Lida Husik, a little poppier than most of her records. Her earlier albums (the solo ones, that is -- she also records uninteresting techno instrumentals with a guy named Beaumont Hannett under the name Husikesque) are more like an indie-rock take on prog-psych, with muddy sound and low-budget sound effects. Her songwriting is kind of inconsistent, but her better songs are really quite good, and even most of the worst ones have elements that'll hold your interest. In her favor, she's got a *great* voice, sort of husky and throaty but not a blues-mama growl. JOYRIDE is probably my favorite of her records, with FLY STEREOPHONIC and BOZO just a step behind. S ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:15:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jer Fairall Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Smash a glass and cry... > >np: Cyndi Lauper, SHE'S SO UNUSUAL (remastered w/ > >bonus tracks, etc.) > > > Wow, is this a recent issue? Can't find any trace > of such at CDNow... What are the bonus tracks? From earlier in the year, I think. Bonus tracks are: "Money Changes Everything" (live) "She Bop" (live - previously unreleased) "All Through The Night" (live - previously unreleased) Jer Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:24:35 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Smash a glass and cry... > Hoping that live version of "Money Changes Everything" is in there As a completist I feel obliged to observe that this great live track (which *is* one of the bonus tracks on the reissue) was already available on CD on the Japanese EP _The Best Remixes_. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:39:58 EST From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Advisories In a message dated 11/14/01 12:43:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, aaron@eecs.harvard.edu writes: > The Cure's "Greatest Hits" includes a fabulous bonus disc with the > entire first disc performed acoustically. > > Yep. Listening to it now. Worth the $20.00 album price. Glad to keep Robert Smith in hair products. I'm glad the eighties aren't dead. I've got a "Pretty in Pink" soundtrack promo poster and "Boys Don't Cry" Robert Smith silouette Cure poster from my first attempt at college back in the Reagan era stashed away in my closet still. Perhaps I should unload them on e-bay to some monied teen with an eighties fetish. Nah. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:46:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Lida Husik (actual Scott!) On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Stewart Mason wrote: > JOYRIDE is probably my favorite of her records, with FLY STEREOPHONIC and > BOZO just a step behind. Minor Scott content: FLY STEREOPHONIC and a couple other Lida CDs are on Alias. Her website has a great series of stories about her growing up in the 60s. J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 20:31:05 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Lida Husik Just to add an agreeing voice, I'll second Stewart exactly on his picks: Joyride is my favorite as well, followed by the other two he mentions. The best parts of Bozo are very nice, but there are a couple of clunkers. Fly Stereophonic is more consistant. I don't like "Red Emma" at all, and "Your Bag" sounds more like a failed low-budget take on Laurie Anderson or something, as I recall. I may be wrong, but I think that Lida is married to the guy who runs Rainbow Quartz, and I also recall reading that her sister was once in Band of Susans. Not that that has much to do with anything. - --dana On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:47:42 -0700 Stewart Mason writes: >At 04:57 PM 11/14/01 -0500, Aaron Milenski wrote: >>Anyone on this list familiar with this singer/songwriter? I just >read a >>rave about her FLY STEREOPHONIC album but it didn't tell me very much >about >>what she sounds like. Any information and opinions would be >appreciated. > >FLY STEREOPHONIC is unusual for Lida Husik, a little poppier than most >of >her records. Her earlier albums (the solo ones, that is -- she also >records >uninteresting techno instrumentals with a guy named Beaumont Hannett >under >the name Husikesque) are more like an indie-rock take on prog-psych, >with >muddy sound and low-budget sound effects. Her songwriting is kind of >inconsistent, but her better songs are really quite good, and even >most of >the worst ones have elements that'll hold your interest. In her >favor, >she's got a *great* voice, sort of husky and throaty but not a >blues-mama >growl. > >JOYRIDE is probably my favorite of her records, with FLY STEREOPHONIC >and >BOZO just a step behind. > >S ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:50:33 -0800 (PST) From: Sue Trowbridge Subject: [loud-fans] Anton Barbeau in New York Anton Barbeau asked me to post that he will be making a very rare East Coast appearance on Nov. 21. He will be performing at the Sidewalk Cafe, 94 Avenue A, New York. Sylvia Mann headlines. 11 PM. - -- Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:03:08 -0500 From: "Francis J H Park" Subject: [loud-fans] A repetitive, yet difficult question... Ahoy everyone. I thought I'd make an appearance again since I have been racking my brains to answer a question and for the life of me, I can't answer it. There's no better group that loud-fans to answer this one. I'm not sure how long I'll be on the list right now - a lot of it is dependent on current international affairs. A lot of it is dependent on what my domestic schedule entails. In the meantime, my family plans are on track - Elizabeth is 10 months old and shows all the signs of inheriting both her parents' demeanors. I'll have to teach her basic combatives and how to play lacrosse later on so she can make good on the potential. My wife should be delivering the last member of the tank crew in April '02, I think. We depart North Carolina sometime in June '02. In the meantime, I've been shopping for station wagons to replace the Acura deathmobile I've been driving since 1996. Seriously though - one of my lieutenants asked me last week "what do you listen to?" His genre is predominantly industrial; there were a few things that he couldn't fathom because I rabidly eschew them, like why I had no Nine Inch Nails in my CD shelf. He's one of the tiny few in the Army that recognizes "jangly guitar pop" for what it is, but how does one describe that to mainstream America when 90% of my soldiers have no earthly clue what Cub is, let alone Game Theory? This might be a Pandora's Box, but I welcome your thoughts on the matter! Francis J. H. Park http://home.sprintmail.com/~durandal - -- "I can run all night. And I can run all day..." - James Webb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:21:24 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Lida Husik On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Aaron Milenski wrote: > Anyone on this list familiar with this singer/songwriter? I just read a > rave about her FLY STEREOPHONIC album but it didn't tell me very much about > what she sounds like. Any information and opinions would be appreciated. I'll pretty much agree w/what everyone says: _Fly Stereophonic_ and _Joyride_ are my favorites. Unlike most, I kind of like her more technoid explorations - _Green Blue Fire_ (billed to Husikesque) and _Mad Flavor_ are pretty cool. She attempts to combine songwriterly approach with the more groove/sonic oriented approach to the dancefloor...with mixed results. When it works, it works well - when it doesn't, well, it doesn't get by on sheer sound and beat, let's just say that. I haven't heard her other works - but I probably will. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::To be the center of the universe, don't orbit things:: __Scott Miller__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:28:53 -0600 From: steve Subject: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Military Edition) On Wednesday, November 14, 2001, at 05:28 AM, JRT456@aol.com wrote: << I've read that the Bush operatives got lots of obviously defective military ballots counted. >> > You likely read that proud Democratic operatives were battling to save > our > country from military ballots with a missing or outdated postmark...even > though Florida and federal law supports the counting of overseas > military > ballots that are postmarked no later than the date of the election, or > (and > here's the important distinction) ballots signed and dated no later > than the > date of the election. Unfortunately, other people read the Democratic > memo > that got leaked where lawyers were advised to challenge military ballots > before anybody got a chance to open the envelope and see if the ballot > was > properly signed and dated. That was when the public began to figure out > that > the popular vote wasn't much of a Democratic concern. No, I mean ballots that would not qualify under the above standards. As for the popular vote, the Bush camp did far more to suppress Gore votes and get their own counted than the Gore people did on the other side. New York Times, 07/15/01, on one part of the Bush Florida strategy - > Their goal was simple: to count the maximum number of overseas ballots > in counties won by Mr. Bush, particularly those with a high > concentration of military voters, while seeking to disqualify overseas > ballots in counties won by Vice President Al Gore. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/15/politics/15BALL.html <....and there were military people bragging to the media about how they were able to vote twice.>> > So you read a claim that military people were bragging to the media, or > did > you see this in the media? Maybe they were just proud that their vote > got a > second count after the Democratic memo was exposed. No, I heard the actual double voters on the radio saying they used the hurry-up after the election to slip in another ballot. It seems that certain officers became rather gung-ho to round up ballots after the election and expedite their shipment to the US. The voters in question said that Florida was their state of residence. - - Steve __________ It's something new to see crises  especially a crisis as shocking as the terrorist attack  consistently addressed with legislation that does almost nothing to address the actual problem, and is almost entirely aimed at advancing a pre-existing agenda. - Paul Krugman, on Republican strategy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:49:56 -0600 From: steve Subject: [loud-fans] Can-Am storage sale Just in case you've been waiting for that new wall of Can-Am storage - > Can-Am is pleased to advise you of our biggest savings event of the > year. > > SAVE 10% until November 30, 2001 > > This sale applies to all Can-Am cabinets and accessories. > > To order, call 800-387-9790 or click here to visit this unpublished > e-site: > http://www.can-am.ca/esale2001.htm - - Steve __________ If anyone has ever benefited from what Bush has called "the bigotry of soft expectations," it's George W. Bush himself. - Mark Crispin Miller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:52:53 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary , Edition) On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com wrote: > For the next election, I'll use this widely-read, influential forum to > propose that unless a victory which is both decisive and comprehensible > is won in America's *New* War, that anyone who attempts to vote to > remove our current leadership from office be indefinitely interred in a > camp as a suspected terrorist, and their voting privileges be > retroactively suspended. A decent ad campaign should be sufficient to > silence any dissenting crybabies and convince the majority of Americans > that such an action is constitutionally acceptable, under the > circumstances. Exactly. Since, as has been made clear, anyone who detracts from our new unity is, ipso facto, helping the terrorists win - and is therefore a terrorist. My favorite example of this lovely new patriotism is the whining of some conservative intellectuals, who claim that they *would* speak up in favor of America's New Car...uh, War - but they're afraid that all those liberals would shout them down. This is being used as evidence that said liberals are disloyal fifth-columnists. Let's see...you *think* you might be shouted down (despite flags everywhere), so that's somebody *else*'s fault? My second-favorite instance of hysteric logic... My favorite? Of course, Ann Coulter's maniacal insistence on converting dead people to Christianity ("invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity": in that order? No wonder she got fired...not to mention that killing leaders sets a fine, Christian example for others to follow.) I wish I could be more detailed, but alas, I already deleted the farrago of verbiage e-mailed to me outlining this wonderful example of the way conservatives *never* ever paint themselves as victims and instead accept responsibility for their lives - unlike whining liberals. Was Andrew Vachss playing a Cramps track backwards? - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::pushing the pencil not the envelope:: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 20:56:19 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Mulholland Drive >I've often argued that the two-ish hour standard for film has limited the >art form in many, many ways. It's arguable that a viewer gets more >satisfaction out of a long running TV show, due to the connection with the >characters, long-term character development, knowledge of past events, >long-running storylines, etc... than from even the best film. What just >may be the finest achievement in all of film, Kieslowski's DECALOGUE, is >both longer and shorter than your typical film. Each one-hour film is >complete on its own and as tight as can be, and should open any viewer's >mind up to the thought that a great film can be shorter, not longer, than >the standard. Important to remember, though, that length restriction is only a imposed commercial standard, not an absolute one. Three of the films which impressed me most in this wonderful year for films--Aoyama Shinji's EUREKA, Edward Yang's YI YI, and Alejandro Gonzalez Iqarritu's AMORES PERROS--run, respectively, 217 minutes, 173 minutes, and 153 minutes. I'm looking forward to Jacques Rivette's VA SAVOIR, which runs 154 minutes; he's apparently made one film running almost thirteen hours. I'm thinking also of Lars Von Trier's THE KINGDOM and THE KINGDOM II--though admittedly I haven't seen either one, and those were of course shot for television. Who said watching paint dry was bad? Andy "The bookstore was run by seeming quintuplets, by five short, bald men chewing unlit cigars that were sopping wet. They never smiled, and each one had a stool to perch on. They were making money running a paper-and-celluloid whorehouse." - --last paragraph in my copy of Kurt Vonnegut's SLAUGHTERHOUSE-FIVE (the last several pages are torn out) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 00:03:57 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Soldiers voting (for Presidents and pop music) In a message dated 11/14/01 8:33:34 PM, steveschiavo@mac.com writes of questionable military ballots: << No, I mean ballots that would not qualify under the above standards. As for the popular vote, the Bush camp did far more to suppress Gore votes and get their own counted than the Gore people did on the other side. >> Well, that's discussed here: http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,301511-412,00.shtml ...although the NY Times holds on to a lot of discredited notions about what constitutes a voided military ballot. Still, the paper seems to think that it didn't affect the outcome of the election. Meanwhile, let's hear it for this "durandal" guy, whose presence never fails to make me happy. The Taliban is on the run--much to the dismay of informed American journalists--and our military is still so cool that we've got trained men sitting around and idly discussing pop music. God bless our soldiers....but we should pay them enough so they can skip the station wagons and go the SUV route. Let the pregnant army wives drive right over the rutting peaceniks in their economy cars. Not to brag, but I just spent a day warring with the DMV to get my own fetus rolling like Rat Fink. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:05:13 -0600 From: steve Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Kingdom On Wednesday, November 14, 2001, at 10:56 PM, Andrew Hamlin wrote: > I'm thinking also of Lars Von Trier's THE KINGDOM and THE KINGDOM > II--though > admittedly I haven't seen either one, and those were of course shot for > television. The entire series can be purchased for $60 from - http://pokerindustries.com/ Look in the Euro-Cult/Horror section. - - Steve __________ At the same time he was selling U.S. secrets to the Soviet Union, former FBI special agent Robert Philip Hanssen was a key supervisor in a 1980s domestic-spying program questioning the loyalty of American citizens and monitoring their activities, newly obtained FBI documents show. - Dann & Kennedy, L.A. Times ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:07:40 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] firing the Buchanan yet again While ingenuous, the recent message to this list noting strong levels of independent support for Buchanan in Palm Beach County still does not account for those vote totals. Here's an interesting link (with further links): http://weber.ucsd.edu/~mruben/florida.htm - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::To be the center of the universe, don't orbit things:: __Scott Miller__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 00:19:00 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Special First Anniversary , Edition) In a message dated 11/14/01 8:53:46 PM, jenor@csd.uwm.edu writes: << My favorite example of this lovely new patriotism is the whining of some conservative intellectuals, who claim that they *would* speak up in favor of America's New Car...uh, War - but they're afraid that all those liberals would shout them down. This is being used as evidence that said liberals are disloyal fifth-columnists. >> I like the notion of people speaking up about how they can't speak up. Some examples, please? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:00:23 -0800 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] No, I won't let it go!!! (Military Edition) Courtesy a gracious person (gracious person, if you'd like to be credited, just let me know!) with a key to the executive Salon suite: What if they hijacked an election, and no one cared? Despite the media's spin, the latest recount shows the wrong man was awarded Florida's presidential vote. But if even Al Gore can't bother to complain, why should anyone else? - - - - - - - - - - - - - By Jake Tapper Nov. 14, 2001 | WASHINGTON -- Last December, in the throes of the post-election fight, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., flew down to Tallahassee, Fla. There he warned the public that the state's open-government sunshine laws meant that eventually the media would be able to conduct a full recount of all the 175,000 unread ballots in the state -- even if the courts and the Legislature blocked it. "There will be an accurate count," Daschle said, adding that it would be "tragic" if we only learned who really won months later, from the media, when it no longer counted. Nearly a year and almost $1 million later, the media consortium that reviewed all the Florida ballots finally produced results indicating that, for whatever reason -- whether voter screw-ups, vast and sundry conspiracies or just simple fate -- the will of a plurality of voters in the Sunshine State was thwarted last year. "The media recount confirms what many of us have believed for a long time," says Ron Klain, who headed the Gore team's legal effort last year. "If you count all the legal ballots in Florida, Al Gore won." But Klain is one of the few talking about the matter; Daschle has had nothing to say about the media recount now that it's a reality. With President Bush experiencing approval ratings near 90 percent and the nation in crisis, few have had anything to say. The media consortium even held off a few weeks before releasing the information, so as not to do so in the midst of the tense few weeks post-Sept. 11. Not that it was released on a better day, with more consequential news -- the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 that killed at least 260 people, the Taliban fleeing Kabul -- making the reexamined ballots seem all the more silly. What's a few thousand unread ballots in the face of thousands of Americans being killed by al-Qaida? Still, the biggest, most comprehensive and most thoroughly conducted media recount indicates that if there had been a statewide review of all the 175,000 overvotes and undervotes unread on Election Day 2000, Al Gore would have ultimately beaten George W. Bush by anywhere from 42 to 171 votes, depending upon the method of counting. Gruffed White House spokesman Ari Fleischer: "The election was settled a year ago, President Bush won and the voters have long since moved on." That's perfectly true. The election is settled, Bush won and the voters have moved on. But in the world of politics, that wouldn't necessarily matter. This was the most controversial election in a century, and whatever one thinks about Al Gore, the consortium's data proposes a fairly shocking notion on its face -- that the wrong man may well have taken the oath of office last January. Especially when one contemplates that Gore nationally garnered 537,000 more popular votes than did President Bush. But for a number of reasons this fairly stunning conclusion has been downplayed significantly. Even by some of the media organizations that paid for the recount, which include the Associated Press, CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, the Palm Beach Post, the St. Petersburg Times and Tribune Publishing. Some of this is because there seems to be little outrage -- and few Democratic talking heads willing to take up the cause. "People are either more concerned about terrorism, and/or they prefer Bush and his team handling the terrorist threat," speculated former Sen. Bob Kerrey, D-Neb. "Or maybe the story is too long to read." Another reason is that, as during the recount fiasco itself, Gore still remains unable to generate much enthusiasm even among those who would be his natural supporters. Many Democrats are upset that Gore himself hasn't raised more of a stink. One former senior Gore campaign strategist confessed to being so disheartened after reading Gore's benign statement about the consortium recount ("As I said on December 13 of last year, we are a nation of laws, and the presidential election of 2000 is over," Gore said. "And of course, right now, our country faces a great challenge as we seek to successfully combat terrorism. I fully support President Bush's efforts to achieve that goal") that he crumpled the newspaper in a ball and tossed it out angrily. But of the 20 precincts of significant size that showed the highest rate of spoiled ballots, all were at least 80 percent African-American. Many Democrats don't see the fight as just about Gore, but about the right to vote, and by being quiet, Gore is infuriating many Democrats who feel cheated. By being silent, Gore is clearly defusing any attention the story would otherwise have received. "If Gore's saying that 'George W. Bush is my commander in chief,' and Joe Lieberman's saying it, no matter what the results are, who cares?" says Florida Democratic Party spokesman Tony Welch. "I care, by the way. But in the overall analysis, it's a really big nonstory." But there are other reasons for the lack of buzz, for the failure of the recount and its potentially troublesome conclusions to generate much discussion. One is the ambiguous nature of the recount and the ambiguous way many in the media have portrayed its conclusions. "It doesn't slam-dunk it for anyone," says Welch. "There's a lot to muddle through to come to the conclusion that Gore was the winner and anyone can point to another story that says he wasn't." Another reason may be a general lack of enthusiasm for Gore among many Democratic officials, who believe Gore was a dud of a candidate who will blow it again if given a chance in 2004. Still other rank-and-file Democrats feel let down by Gore's reticence since last December. "I don't think Al Gore acts like a man who wants to be president of the United States," Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., said on CNN in August. "He's been away for almost eight months now," said the feisty liberal. "We've had a lot going on in that eight-month period of time." But Gore -- who is "supposed to be the titular head of the party" -- has been absent, Waters complained. "There's been some terrific battles in the Congress of the United States dealing with this tax cut by the president of the United States, and Social Security, and stem cells. You name it. And where's Al Gore?" Donna Brazile, Gore's campaign manager, is upset that the Florida fiasco hasn't resulted in serious election reform, and she sees the resounding thud of the recount news in that context. "For an entire year we have not have a spiritual leader on election reform, the same way that John McCain is the spiritual leader of campaign finance reform," Brazile says. "Even before Sept. 11, election reform had died." One senses that Brazile wishes Gore would try to become that "spiritual leader." Brazile, who is teaching at the University of Maryland's Academy of Leadership, says that "the only groups and the only constituencies who are talking about Florida are African-Americans, with some progressive elements. But by and large people walked away. They said, 'OK. So what?' We kept saying a disproportionate number of African-Americans didn't have their votes counted and people said, 'Move on, move on.' And the 'Move on' crowd won." "Why do you think I'm sitting at home and teaching instead of pounding the pavement for candidates?" Brazile asks. "If people are not going to stand up for you, why should I work hard for them?" The recount indicated that African-Americans were "three times as likely to have their ballots discarded," she says. But there hasn't been any serious investigation as to whether there was a purposeful spoilage of these ballots. "I don't believe in my heart of hearts that African-Americans would make that big a mistake," she says. "Something happened to some of those ballots. Somebody tampered with the process." Even if some of the mistakes were innocent -- like the Duval County elections supervisor, who put the instructions on the sample ballot to "Vote all pages," though the list for presidential candidates was two pages long, thus possibly resulting in overvotes -- there was little actual fallout, Brazile says. "We should have caught that, someone should have caught that, but did that official get fired? No. Was he made an example of? No." She pauses. Sighs. "I'm trying not to relive 2000," she says. "It's taking lot of time. I'm trying to put away some of my anger, but it's been a very difficult process." A final reason for the story's resounding thud may be a certain media relishing of the consortium's ironic conclusions. After all, if either of Gore's recount strategies pursued by his legal team had been acted upon, then Bush would have won, according to the consortium's review. It's only through a full statewide recount of both the undervotes and the overvotes -- an option advocated by Gore recount lawyers such as Jack Young, and blithely dismissed by the Gore kingpins -- that Gore would have won. (That Gore's legal eagles did so because they thought that option would result in Gore's being slammed for dragging the process out is certainly understandable, though P.R. considerations are hardly lofty ones.) For the early "protest" phase of the recount, for instance, Gore hand-picked four Democratic-leaning counties for his hand recounts -- Broward, Palm, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties -- thus ignoring the state's other 63 counties and their approximately 110,000 unread ballots, both undervotes and overvotes. The consortium's recount indicated that if Florida's 25 electoral votes had been assigned according to this plan, Bush would have won by 225 votes. In the "contest" period of the recount, Gore's lawyers managed to get the Florida Supreme Court to implement a statewide recount of just the 65,000 undervotes. Had that not been stopped by the U.S. Supreme Court, then Bush would have won by 490 votes. If the county election supervisors who planned on counting the overvotes had done so, Bush would have won by 493 votes. (Not that the Bush recount team was playing any more honorably, blocking any recount that they could.) These, however, are questions of strategy. And clearly Gore and his team chose the wrong one. Their strategy was unfair, since it initially focused on four Democratic-leaning counties and ignored the others precisely because they were Republican-leaning; and then because it focused on undervotes and ignored overvotes, where voter intent could clearly be discerned -- and had been discerned and counted in places like Gadsden and Volusia counties, where there were clearly votes for both Gore and Bush in the overvotes. And in the end it ended up not only being unfair, but stupid, too. Some Democratic strategists who early on in the post-election battle argued for a statewide recount of all 175,000 ballots -- but were overruled -- confessed to feeling some vindication with news of the consortium's recount. Others didn't feel anything but anger -- at the Bush team, and at the media, and seemingly at the unfairness of life itself. "Just because he happened to choose the wrong formula to get there doesn't negate the fact that he got more votes and that he should be president," says one Democratic strategist. Shoulda woulda coulda. The lesson learned: Next time you say "Count every vote," mean it. salon.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - About the writer Jake Tapper is Salon's Washington correspondent and the author of "Down and Dirty: The Plot to Steal the Presidency." ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #305 *******************************