From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #245 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, September 26 2001 Volume 01 : Number 245 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Re: [Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com] [loud-fans] In further consideration of irony and its place in American life... ["Andrew Hamlin" ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: ["Chris Murtland" ] [loud-fans] Letterman and Rather [Michael Mitton ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] Re: [Jon Tveite ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: [Cindy Alvarez ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: [=?iso-8859-1?q?Stef=20Hurts?= ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: [dmw ] RE: [loud-fans] Re: ["R. Kevin Doyle" ] [loud-fans] The Left Banke [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] The Left Banke [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] The Left Banke [Michael Zwirn ] RE: [loud-fans] Re: ["John Swartzentruber" ] Re: [loud-fans] The Left Banke [Dan Sallitt ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: [Cardinal007@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] The Left Banke [Cardinal007@aol.com] RE: [loud-fans] Re: (still OT - sorry) ["R. Kevin Doyle" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:27:09 -0500 From: Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Bowen, then J.R.: << this sort of jingoistic nonsense is only worthy of the people who committed these atrocities in the first place. >> So expressions of pride and patriotism are to be equated with the mindset of a terrorist attack. Isn't that a little jingoistic in the name of anti-jingoism? <><><><><><><><><> Speaking as a former member of what later became known as Generation X (I lost interest and quit being involved as soon as it got named), I can still only sincerely feel jingoistic about apathy. Eternally Vanquishing the Enemies of SuperMarioLand, - --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:00:31 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: [loud-fans] In further consideration of irony and its place in American life... http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/25/irony_lives/index.html Andy "If you bought $1000 worth of Nortel stock one year ago, it would now be worth $49. If you bought $1000 worth of Budweiser (the beer, not the stock) one year ago, drank all the beer, and traded in the cans for the nickel deposit, you would have $79. My advice to you is to start drinking heavily." (courtesy Darnell D'Aniels and Jeff Travis) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:57:41 -0400 From: Michael Bowen Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: At 05:56 PM 9/24/2001 -0400, JRT456@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/24/01 2:11:58 PM, mbowen@frontiernet.net writes: > ><< this sort of jingoistic nonsense is only worthy of the people who >committed these atrocities in the first place. >> > >So expressions of pride and patriotism are to be equated with the mindset of >a terrorist attack. Isn't that a little jingoistic in the name of >anti-jingoism? Bzzzzzt, I'm sorry, but you get the Lee Press-On Nails. The real patriots are the ones who are giving blood, providing services to the victims, organizing charity drives, and clearing the rubble so we can rebuild. The people who are making money by selling cheap trinkets are vultures. The people who are buying them are, by and large, people who see this whole thing as some new offshoot of the WWF. MB PS - Thanks for the recommendation of the Gorkys album, dana. Sounds like the kind of thing that would hit the spot. Don't the Super Furry Animals (aka "The Other Welsh Band With The Three Word Name") also have an album imminent as well? http://www.savemonroe.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:59:25 -0400 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: I'm also pretty gung-ho about apathy. But the luxury to be apathetic only comes from living in a relatively free state and in a reasonably secure environment. As do other luxuries we are fond of: endlessly debating pop music, for instance. If someone is shooting, bombing, or otherwise attacking us, it becomes much less convenient or reasonable to remain apathetic and cloistered in our fog of luxury. The same can be said of other threats to life and limb, and not just on a national scale - if I am starving and homeless I am probably not very interested in discussing art; this line of thought has been said much better by others before (funny how all lines of thought are like that). I never thought I'd *ever* have to take interest in anything political at all, but here I am. Sorry if this "point" (I do not give myself that much credit) has already been made; my reading of posts is hit and miss. Love, Dr. Murt > Bowen, then J.R.: > > << this sort of jingoistic nonsense is only worthy of the people who > committed these atrocities in the first place. >> > > So expressions of pride and patriotism are to be equated with the mindset of > a terrorist attack. Isn't that a little jingoistic in the name of > anti-jingoism? > > <><><><><><><><><> > > Speaking as a former member of what later became known as Generation X (I lost > interest and quit being involved as soon as it got named), I can still only > sincerely feel jingoistic about apathy. > > Eternally Vanquishing the Enemies of SuperMarioLand, > --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:46:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mitton Subject: [loud-fans] Letterman and Rather I know there was some discussion on here while I was away about Letterman's return to the air, and his interview with Dan Rather. For the interested, I thought I'd mention that Dave does have streaming video posted on his website right now. He has the entire Rather interview, and it seemed like all of the monologue as well. Go to: http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/ In this age of irony, and particularly for a show like Dave's, it's a difficult thing to come back on the air after WTC, but I thought both the monologue and the Rather interview were quite touching, as they ought to be. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:07:35 -0400 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: PS - Thanks for the recommendation of the Gorkys album, dana. Sounds like the kind of thing that would hit the spot. Don't the Super Furry Animals (aka "The Other Welsh Band With The Three Word Name") also have an album imminent as well? >>>>>>>>>> Yes. I think it came out today in the US, though it was released a month or so ago in England, where it got them nominated for the Mercury prize (I'm unclear on whether that's a good thing or not.) The Super Furry's Album is pretty great, but it's pretty, um, eclectic. The best review I've seen of it came from an Amazon reviewer who said: My favourite new albums are the ones that are both instantly pleasing to hear as well as being challenging at the same time, records that throw convention out the window, great pop music that's a bit off-kilter, with clever lyrics to boot. Super Furry Animals' new album Rings Around The World is the first new album of 2001 to completely blow me away, a soaring, aural mindfunk of a pop album. Where should I begin? Every track is musically vastly different from the other and is punctuated by Gruff Rhys's oddball lyrics, the first five songs getting the album off to a flying start. The mellow piano ballad 'Alternate Route To Vulcan Street' kicks off the album with the enigmatic line "sometimes I ponder/what if the Caspian Sea/should merger/over my shoulder", 'Sidewalk Serfer Girl' lampoons the Beach Boys with a bit of a glam twist, the irresistable electropop of '(Drawing) Rings Around The World' perfectly mirrors the sound of ELO, and Rhys's impeccable singing on the plaintive ballad 'It's Not The End Of The World' sounds as good as the best work by Blur. The album's best moments, though, are in the amazing 'Receptacle For The Respectable' (talk about the song title of the year). It starts at a midtempo, acoustic guitar-driven pace with harmonies that sound lifted straight from Wings, then suddenly breaks down to half the speed in an Abbey Road-styled segue before slowing down even more, with a gentle, horn-driven melody that also features the sound of Paul McCartney eating celery and carrots, then builds up to the final section where, over faux-industrial keyboards, Rhys belts out the song's title in his best death metal impersonation. All this happens in less than four exhilerating minutes, making it one of the most stunning songs you'll hear in a long time. There are no low points on the rest of Rings Around The World: '(A) Touch Sensitive' is an effective stab at trip-hop, 'Shoot Doris Day' sounds a lot like Elvis Costello and just might hint at someone's great dislike of The Man Who Knew Too Much ("Sentimentality pause/as Jimmy Stewart ignores her question"), the grim, folky 'No Sympathy' that metamorphoses from a Crosby, Stills & Nash homage into a boisterous exercise in electronic knob-twiddling, the Marvin Gaye-influenced 'Juxtaposed With U' that combines biting social commentary with bizarre humour ("I'm not in love with you/but I won't hold that against you") and makes Rhys sound like a Welsh Jarvis Cocker, the hilarious lampooning of the Clinton-Lewinsky controversy in 'Presidential Suite', the Pink Floyd sounds of 'Run Christian Run', and the gentle "doo doo-wah"'s of 'Fragile Happiness that evoke the Velvet Underground. Super Furry Animals have made a major statement with this spectacular album, which was close to a year in the making, and as a result they have emerged as one of the best bands on the planet. You can't go wrong with this flawless piece of work, which will end up close to, or perhaps, at the top of my best of 2001 list. - --dana I had a dream with you in it the other night. We were sort of stranded somewhere on the upper upper east side of Manhattan in a downtrodden neighborhood. I was scooting around in a sort of a soft plastic tub of a boat with wheels and had somehow lost Pearl. You were travelling with me, then I lost you. But, I found you again in the back of a crude storefront with people dressed kind of like indians/eskimos (sort of patchwork burlap/linen/muslin with autumn colors and bits of feathers and string). You were behind the counter talking to John Zorn who had talked you into staying and collaborating with him. I asked you if you wanted a ride back downtown and you said, no, you were staying. I was terribly worried about the slim prospect of ever finding my Pearl again and was sure she'd never find her way back home downtown some 90plus blocks. I began fretting so terribly. Then I woke up and thankfully, Pearl was sleeping soundly right beside me. - --from a friend of mine. Pearl is a dog. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:43:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Dana L Paoli wrote: > the kind of thing that would hit the spot. Don't the Super Furry Animals > (aka "The Other Welsh Band With The Three Word Name") also have an album > imminent as well? > >>>>>>>>>> > > Yes. I think it came out today in the US, though it was released a month > or so ago in England, where it got them nominated for the Mercury prize > (I'm unclear on whether that's a good thing or not.) The Super Furry's > Album is pretty great, but it's pretty, um, eclectic. It got a glowing review in Mojo as well. PJ Harvey won the Mercury Prize this year. Last year, it was won by Badly Drawn Boy. J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:38:37 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: In a message dated 9/25/01 11:42:30 AM, mbowen@frontiernet.net writes: << Bzzzzzt, I'm sorry, but you get the Lee Press-On Nails. The real patriots are the ones who are giving blood, providing services to the victims, organizing charity drives, and clearing the rubble so we can rebuild. >> If your problem was with the manufacturers of patriotic trinkets, then you should have said so. Instead, your post states that people who express their pride by purchasing trinkets (the example you gave was your drycleaner) share a mindset with murderous terrorists. Try to consider that people giving blood and providing services to the victims may very well have purchased a t-shirt in the past few days. As for musical content: The Fletcher Pratt are really dull. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:52:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Tveite Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 JRT456@aol.com wrote: > If your problem was with the manufacturers of patriotic trinkets, then > you should have said so. Instead, your post states that people who > express their pride by purchasing trinkets (the example you gave was > your drycleaner) share a mindset with murderous terrorists. I don't have a problem with everybody buying flags and waving them around. I mean, yeah, it's a little scary and militaristic if you think about all the baggage that comes with it, but I don't think most people mean it that way. They just have strong feelings about the 9/11 disaster and want to express their concern for the victims and the country. It's just unfortunate that we are living in a culture based on mass consumption, where people are constantly herded toward choices among a few options, all usually bad. Coke or Pepsi? Bush or Gore? Flags or ... what? There are no good alternatives being offered for those of us who have misgivings about that particular symbol. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:01:36 -0700 From: Cindy Alvarez Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: At 3:52 PM -0500 9/25/01, Jon Tveite wrote: >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 JRT456@aol.com wrote: > >> If your problem was with the manufacturers of patriotic trinkets, then >> you should have said so. Instead, your post states that people who >> express their pride by purchasing trinkets (the example you gave was >> your drycleaner) share a mindset with murderous terrorists. > >I don't have a problem with everybody buying flags and waving them around. >I mean, yeah, it's a little scary and militaristic if you think about all >the baggage that comes with it, but I don't think most people mean it that >way. I think this is, if any time, a good time to reclaim the flag from the baggage that it has traditionally been saddled with. I mean, yeah, I've always thought that flag-wavers were probably crazy right-wing nuts who probably think I should "go back to my own country" (I was born here, and so was my Mexican dad), but I like this country and I have no problems with the flag and maybe if all of the non-nutso people start flying the flag it can lose some of that baggage. I mean, there are American flags all over the Castro here in San Francisco, and it's so cool because you can be pretty certain that -these- flags are flown free of that baggage. I like that. off to a meeting, more later. c ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:34:25 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stef=20Hurts?= Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: JRT456@aol.com wrote: > As for musical content: The Fletcher Pratt are really dull. I don't think I've heard anything by them, but the second bit of their name should have given it away. Or is that only the case in British English? :) Toodlepip, - -Stef Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:40:58 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, [iso-8859-1] Stef Hurts wrote: > JRT456@aol.com wrote: > > As for musical content: The Fletcher Pratt are really dull. > > I don't think I've heard anything by them, but the second bit of their > name should have given it away. Or is that only the case in British > English? :) no, we have "prat fall" in american english, certainly. same derivation i'm pretty sure. i assume, though, that the band is named after the science fiction/fantasty author -- best known for the "incompleat enchanter" collaborations with l. sprauge de camp, if memory serves. - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:58:40 -1000 From: "R. Kevin Doyle" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Re: Jon Tveite writes: >I don't have a problem with everybody buying flags and waving them around. >I mean, yeah, it's a little scary and militaristic if you think about all >the baggage that comes with it, but I don't think most people mean it that >way. They just have strong feelings about the 9/11 disaster and want to >express their concern for the victims and the country. > >It's just unfortunate that we are living in a culture based on mass >consumption, where people are constantly herded toward choices among a >few options, all usually bad. Coke or Pepsi? Bush or Gore? Flags or ... >what? There are no good alternatives being offered for those of us who >have misgivings about that particular symbol. Coke and Pepsi are choices of Soft Drink. Bush and Gore were choices for president. A flag is a symbol of a particular country. Ergo, you have many choices in flags. You can choose to move and become a citizen of another country, you can choose to hand a flag of a country who's values more closely align with yours, etc. IMO, the flag is a symbol of the United State of America as a whole and the values it stands for. Just as the Constitution allows for liberal, conservative, democratic and republican (and many other) interpretations, but is none of those things, the American flag is symbol of our ideals, not the interpreters of our ideals. Since our ideals are under attack, and not any specific set of ideologies, it is a simple act of unity to display the symbol of our shared ideals. People selling patriotic symbols don't bother me. People selling pieces of the WTC on E-bay bother me. One is providing people who feel strongly about our country being attacked are buying and selling the one, people who are (IMO) sick vultures are selling the other. Anyhow, just how I feel... R. Kevin Doyle Honolulu, HI ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:45:34 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: [loud-fans] The Left Banke Here's a soft lob over the net for y'all: I recently heard "Walk Away Renee" on the radio, and realized that I need a copy. My question is: is my best option to get the complete Left Banke CD, or is there some compilation of hits of the period that's a better bang for the buck, considering that I probably wouldn't own anything on it? I guess the question could be rewritten: how good is the rest of the Left Banke stuff? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:00:26 -0600 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Left Banke At 04:45 PM 9/25/01 -0700, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: >Here's a soft lob over the net for y'all: > >I recently heard "Walk Away Renee" on the radio, and realized that I need a >copy. My question is: is my best option to get the complete Left Banke CD, or is >there some compilation of hits of the period that's a better bang for the buck, >considering that I probably wouldn't own anything on it? I guess the question >could be rewritten: how good is the rest of the Left Banke stuff? "Pretty Ballerina" and "She May Call You Up Tonight" are as good as "Walk Away Renee," which is to say they're all-time classics, and there's plenty of other goodies. Get the complete LB CD. S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:01:53 -0500 From: Michael Zwirn Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Left Banke on 9/25/01 6:45 PM, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > Here's a soft lob over the net for y'all: > > I recently heard "Walk Away Renee" on the radio, and realized that I need a > copy. My question is: is my best option to get the complete Left Banke CD Go for the complete CD. It's got 25 or so songs, and lots of them are great, and it was priced quite reasonably when I picked it up a few years back. Michael - ------------------------------------------------------- Michael Zwirn michael@zwirn.com Home: 503/232-8919 September 2001: 317/283-3986 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:05:48 -0400 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Re: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:58:40 -1000, R. Kevin Doyle wrote: >Since our ideals are under attack, and not any specific set of ideologies, >it is a simple act of unity to display the symbol of our shared ideals. Are our ideals under attack? Or is our support of injustice under attack? Maybe it is really neither, but I think all of the claims that this was an attack on our ideals is a misdirection that tries to keep us from actually learning from the tragedy and making the world a better place. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:21:03 -0400 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Left Banke > I recently heard "Walk Away Renee" on the radio, and realized that I need a > copy. My question is: is my best option to get the complete Left Banke CD, or is > there some compilation of hits of the period that's a better bang for the buck, > considering that I probably wouldn't own anything on it? I guess the question > could be rewritten: how good is the rest of the Left Banke stuff? Nothing is as supernaturally good as "Walk Away Renee," but the Left Banke is well worth investigating in depth. Unfortunately, THERE'S GONNA BE A STORM compiles only Left Banke songs, not the other Michael Brown projects of the period. A really good compilation would include the Montage record that came out in 1969, and the Steve Martin single "Two by Two"/"Love Songs in the Night" from 1971. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:29:23 EDT From: Cardinal007@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: In a message dated 9/25/01 9:07:00 PM, johnslists@mcswartz.org writes: >Are our ideals under attack? Or is our support of injustice under >attack? Maybe it is really neither, but I think all of the claims that >this was an attack on our ideals is a misdirection that tries to keep >us from actually learning from the tragedy and making the world a >better place. I don't really know what was under attack (except edifices and, presumably, their inhabitants), as the attackers all died, and the Terrorist Network isn't offered by my cable system. But I do know that, with the exception of the sociopathic/psychopathic folk who do this just to kill, terrorism against the US seems to arise and be supported largely by the antiwestern *antimodernists.* Opposition to "the West" always smacks of responses to old imperialism, expressions of racial difference, or religious opposition. The fundamentalism at work, IMHO, is the antimodernity variety (the name of a new band from New Haven, btw....). The attacks may not be related to ideals, or injustice -- they may be aimed at a world that has passed by practices and a culture they hope to restore. Is everyone also now firmly opposed to the terrorism practiced internally by US-born folk? I refer to: driving nails into harvesting timber, violently splashing red paint on wearers of fur coats, and bombing medical abortion clinics and assassinating physicians. This kind of terrorism is an even more fundamental attack on our individual civil liberties, and ideals. Just wondering; we have some folks of all ideological stripes on here, and I wonder if anyone would care to defend any of those practices? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:33:10 EDT From: Cardinal007@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Left Banke I suggest you seek out the 1985 release "Out Of The Shadows" by Neon Hari; their version of "Renee" is superior. Of course, I was married to their lead singer at the time ...... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:01:35 -1000 From: "R. Kevin Doyle" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Re: (still OT - sorry) John Swartzentruber writes: >On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:58:40 -1000, R. Kevin Doyle wrote: >>Since our ideals are under attack, and not any specific set of ideologies, >>it is a simple act of unity to display the symbol of our shared ideals. > >Are our ideals under attack? Or is our support of injustice under >attack? Maybe it is really neither, but I think all of the claims that >this was an attack on our ideals is a misdirection that tries to keep >us from actually learning from the tragedy and making the world a >better place. Technically, our buildings and people are under attack. However, the Pentagon and WTC were chosen as much for their symbolic value as for their economic and military value. Ergo, our symbols are under attack. Symbols, of course, stand for something other than themselves. We can argue about whether these symbols were of American economic and military might, or symbols of the people of New York and the Washington DC, or symbols of freedom and justice, or symbols of tyranny and injustice. For the moment, let us assume that they are intended to symbolize positive America ideals. Indeed, many Americans (myself included) do see them as positive symbols. I think, in light of the international reaction to these attacks, that much of the world agrees. Ergo, our ideals (as symbolized by these icons and, in fact, the American flag) are under attack. What I personally learned from the tragedy was that there is an appropriate time for a violent response. Specifically, on United Airlines Flight 93, when the passengers learned of the WTC attacks, they rebelled against the hijackers. They may have died in the process, but think of all the lives they potentially saved. The U.S. government, like virtually every other government in history, has behaved abominably at times and has contributed to the assorted sociological factors that led to the rise of Fundamentalist Islam. The same argument can be made to rationalize the behavior of Timothy McVeigh, the Columbine boys, or the Son of Sam. Never-the-less, we recognize that they were all criminals. Similarly, the men (and, I suppose, women) who helped plan these attacks are criminals as well, guilty of mass murder. They deserve to be punished. Anyone (yes, even Americans) who conspires to mass murder people (including non-American people) deserves to be punished. America's past crimes don't excuse this one. Negotiating with Osama bin Laden or his terrorist network is not going to make the world a better place (IMO). Cynically, I'll say that it is possible that dismantling the network won't necessarily make the world much better either. Never-the-less, disrupting a conspiracy to mass murderer isn't such a bad thing even if it requires sacrifice, just like the passengers on Flight 93 made a sacrifice. At any rate, making the world a better place is a noble goal, and one that I share with you, John. I think we have different ideas about how that may be accomplished. Isn't it wonderful that we have a flag that stands for your right to hold to your ideas and my right to speak for mine? R. Kevin Doyle Honolulu, HI ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:09:49 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: In a message dated 9/25/01 6:07:00 PM, johnslists@mcswartz.org writes of the destruction of the WTC: << Are our ideals under attack? Or is our support of injustice under attack? >> You're not planning a rant about injustices performed against fetuses in abortion clinics, are you? You're welcome to your opinion, but we've already discussed the notion that the terrorists' victims were a necessary sacrifice because everyone doesn't bow to your personal ideology. Frankly, it seems that most on this list disagree with folks like you and Jerry Falwell. And as for musical content: I figure it's a pretty close race between The Clientele and Clinic over which band has made more music fans bemoan wasted money on lousy import albums. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:10:19 -0700 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: Re: [loud-fans] In further consideration of irony and its place in Americanlife...] Andrew Hamlin wrote: > http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/25/irony_lives/index.html .. "The ironist is ironical," declared Bourne, "not because he does not care, but because he cares too much." .. Ironical? Is that even a word? Doing my own research, it's in the dictionary as an synonym of "ironic", but what's the need for adding two more letters "al" to create a word that means exactly the same thing? "Ironicalness" is also acceptable, but equally unnecessary alternative to "irony", unless it means something slightly different? Cindy Alvarez wrote: > I mean, there are American flags all over the Castro here in San > Francisco, and it's so cool because you can be pretty certain that > -these- flags are flown free of that baggage. I like that. I found it a bit ironical last week when an editorial in one of SF's two major weeklies (the strident self-righteous one, not the smarmy, ironical one) had an editorial saying that most American flags "appear to be used as symbols of support for US military action" which could be construed as "instruments of hate", they should be counteracted by posters that say "This community is a hate-free environment".. After I read that, I started interpreting all American flags as a global symbol for "This country is a hate-free environment". The flags flying all over the Castro are probably one of the best examples of this. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:24:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] In further consideration of irony and its place in Americanlife...] On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Steve Holtebeck wrote: > Doing my own research, it's in the dictionary as an synonym of > "ironic", but what's the need for adding two more letters "al" to > create a word that means exactly the same thing? Saying "The ironist is ironic", to me, implies there is something ironic about the ironist's existence or unintentional irony in her speech. "The ironist is ironical" conveys what it's supposed to. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:14:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] In further consideration of irony and its place in American life... On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Andrew Hamlin wrote: > http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/25/irony_lives/index.html Or here's another example of the kind of irony Beers calls "Ironic Engagement": For years, as any number of articles are now pointing out, it has been widely noted that airport security in the US was dangerously lax. But the airlines fought any initiatives to implement stricter security, often on the grounds that doing so would drive up costs (and drive down profits) unacceptably. For similar reasons, those charged with ensuring air travelers' security were paid barely more than those charged with waiting for salt- and fat-encrusted potato slivers to finish their immersion in boiling lard at McDonald's. If those recommendations had been in place, it's possible that those who commandeered the flights that destroyed the WTC and damaged the Pentagon might not have been allowed to board with their box cutters. And so, the airlines would not now be in a position of financial crisis, hemorrhaging money as travelers spook out about flying. If this tragedy allows more of us to value people more than the bottom line, at least one good thing will have come out of this. (And if anyone thinks I'm trivializing by complaining now about poor business practices, first, reread the above; second, ask how many more people than died on 9/11 die because of known, faulty products each year, or because of other lax safety standards in industry.) - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::"In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:36:58 EDT From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] win Dave Matthew's guitar (a subtle rant) There's a link on aol right now to enter a contest to win DM's guitar. Maybe if someone wins the thing, we'll be lucky and he won't buy another one. Don't get me wrong. I don't hate the man. I just hate his music. - -Mark, wondering how some people could think that Scott can't sing, yet think DM can?? I've heard cats in heat that sounded better. The fact that DM doesn't need a day job while Scott does proves there is something seriously whacked with the universe... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:40:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Re: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, R. Kevin Doyle wrote: > IMO, the flag is a symbol of the United State of America as a whole and the > values it stands for. Just as the Constitution allows for liberal, > conservative, democratic and republican (and many other) interpretations, > but is none of those things, the American flag is symbol of our ideals, not > the interpreters of our ideals. I don't think it's that simple. Theoretically, the flag should stand for any American value - but as it happens, it's been more often used by those who stand for what are largely regarded as conservative values rather than by those espousing liberal values. The right (sometimes) likes to say this proves the left is less patriotic - but I would disagree, and note a very specific reason this connotation has come to pass. The US, unlike most nations in the world, is not built upon a common language or culture, or upon generations dwelling in the same place. It is built upon principles. Those principles are, by definition, universal, to be applied to all people - not just those who happen to have been born here. So a true US patriotism should never be a "my country first" proposition (or worse, "my country right or wrong") but a commitment to the ideals the nation was founded upon. Those who use the flag jingoistically abuse it. And it's the history of such abuse - most recently in wars only dubiously rooted in the nation's founding ideals - that perhaps has led the left, less wedded to the idea of nation-state than large segments of the right (excluding those segments apt to join militias), to be more squeamish about flag-waving. I might also point out the yahoos barreling down our little side-street in the days after the attack, hooting and hollering from the back of one of those oversized pickup trucks with the two sets of rear wheels, with an enormous flag mounted in the bed, oblivious to the fact that their actions were not only annoying on the level of being noisy & obnoxious but also dangerous: this is a small, residential street with many children. These guys looked, frankly, ready to pick a fight. It's that kind of flagwaving that I'm shying away from. > Since our ideals are under attack, and not any specific set of ideologies, > it is a simple act of unity to display the symbol of our shared ideals. You know, we really do not know why we are under attack, nor do we really know why the WTC and Pentagon were chosen (if indeed, the Pentagon *was* the original target: I thought I read an article suggesting it might have chosen that target only after being diverted, perhaps in struggle, from a different one). Still, it seems to make sense to interpret it that way, and since conventional terrorism only makes sense if someone claims credit and states goals ("this building was destroyed in the cause of...and others will be too unless our demands our granted..."), it seems likely that the terrorists acted out of religious conviction: what need to tell the world when their god would know what they've done. And that suggests maybe it's less our ideals under attack than our culture: fundamentalism (of any name - and I believe it always misrepresents any religion's spirit) is (as someone here noted) always anti-modern, and US culture is pretty much the global standard of modern. Which is why Falwell's and Robertson's statements pretty much put them in a straight line heading toward Al Qaeda. There is, however, another explanation. Apparently, workers at the WTC site found OJ's bloody glove nearby. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::"Shut up, you truculent lout, and let the cute little pixie sing!":: ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #245 *******************************