From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #225 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Saturday, September 8 2001 Volume 01 : Number 225 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) [=?iso-8859-1?q?Stef=20Hurts?= ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: RIP Ripping [Steve Holtebeck ] Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) [Jon Tveite ] Re: [loud-fans] too many notes [Vivebonpop@aol.com] RE: [loud-fans] QUESTION - (scott content, oh yeah!) ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] [loud-fans] linkous quibble [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) [Michael Mitton ] Re: [loud-fans] too many notes ["Andrew Hamlin" ] Re: [loud-fans] too many notes ["glenn mcdonald" ] [loud-fans] After years of struggle, Burning Man achieves cultural relevance [steve ] Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) [=?iso-8859-1?q?Stef=20Hurts?= ] [loud-fans] Clip: Lawsuit filed over Charley Pride CD [John F Butland ] Re: [loud-fans] linkous quibble [Vivebonpop@aol.com] [loud-fans] Joe Frank [Vivebonpop@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] Joe Frank ["Philip Rostonovich" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:17:17 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stef=20Hurts?= Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) --- John Swartzentruber wrote: > From what I remember, you won't even be able to play them in your > computer CD drive. It increases the amount of "bad" data to the point > that a CD drive won't read it, but most audio players will. What about CD recorders (the non-computer CD burners)? I can understand that they don't want you to copy entire CD's but what about single tracks? Then again, I suppose you can always get around the copy protection by making analog rather than digital copies. Toodlepip, - -Stef Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:41:02 EDT From: GlenSarvad@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Re:RIP Ripping ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:47:02 EDT From: GlenSarvad@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Re: RIP Ripping (sorry for the false start...) All Things Considered did a feature on this last week. I didn't recall that it was a Euro-only phenomenon at this point, but they did say that a small percentage of titles were being shipped with this treatment today and interestingly, the labels refuse to disclose the affected titles in hopes of minimizing controversy. The lack of hubbub or immediate identification of the tainted product may say something about the small percentage of the buying population that actually cares (or perhaps those who do care are simply returning the units as defective). NPR did play before/after clips of some teen pop song subjected to such treatment, and the results were pretty horrific. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:18:28 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jason Long wrote: > Although that wouldn't stop you from connecting your stereo CD player to > the line in jack on your soundcard and looking after matters that way... not a perfect digital copy & thus of less concern to the copyright holders. there is a technology floating around that will allegedly even defeat this - -- your re-digitized copy will still "know" that it's copy-protected when you burn it on a new cd. this one uses an audible watermark though, and i hope people will kill it dead dead dead. - ------------------------------------------------- Mayo-Wells Media Workshop dmw@ http://www.mwmw.com mwmw.com Web Development * Multimedia Consulting * Hosting ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:57:06 -0700 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: RIP Ripping GlenSarvad@aol.com wrote: > All Things Considered did a feature on this last week. I didn't > recall that it was a Euro-only phenomenon at this point, but they did > say that a small percentage of titles were being shipped with this > treatment today and interestingly, the labels refuse to disclose the > affected titles in hopes of minimizing controversy. The lack of hubbub > or immediate identification of the tainted product may say something > about the small percentage of the buying population that actually cares > (or perhaps those who do care are simply returning the units as > defective). From what I heard, most car CD players have the same error correction as computer players, which implies that these discs won't play in cars either, so even fifteen percent might be a low estimate of the affected market. If I bought a disc that wouldn't play in my car or computer, I'd definitely return it as defective product, especially if that flaw wasn't noted on the label. I imagine these titles should be copyable on component CD recorders, because these units already pay their protection money to the RIAA, but wouldn't the copied songs have the same warts, rendering them unreadable on CD-R drives? > NPR did play before/after clips of some teen pop song subjected to > such treatment, and the results were pretty horrific. Before or after the treatment? I imagine some teen pop songs could be improved if they were interspersed with random bits of white noise.. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:15:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Tveite Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) I just happened to reread my post, and it got me thinking about some interesting (to me) issues. On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Jon Tveite wrote: > The big music syndicates probably go to bed at night and dream of a > day when new recordings are not distributed physically at all, and the > wireless Internet is a big jukebox that plays any song you want to > hear -- for a price, of course. Pay per spin. I was being flippant, of course. Actually, the economics of this kind of environment might not work in their favor. I guess it would depend on how it's done. How would you set the value of a single play? By song, or by album? How do you decide if you've gotten your money's worth? Right now, for every $15 CD I buy and listen to a lot, I probably buy 3 or 4 that I only spin 2-3 times. I'm sure others on this list have similar, or even less "efficient" ratios. If I switched to paying by the song, the record industry may very well lose money on it. Given the proliferation of corporate "alternative" one-hit wonders, maybe the record companies would not be so keen on pay-per-play. I imagine there would have to be some kind of graduated system whereby the first few listens would be more expensive than later ones. Of course, all this is speculation on my own sci-fi imaginary vision of the future. I have absolutely no knowledge of any such interest in the actual hall of recording industry power. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:06:36 EDT From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] too many notes In a message dated 9/5/01 11:51:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Vivebonpop writes: > I'm curious of your thoughts of the first Sparklehorse LP? I suppose you missed my question, Aaron. Did you care for Linkous' first record, or do you think he didn't hit his stride until album two? "VivaDixie" I thought was going to be hailed in critically as more of an important album of the '90s than it appears to be treated...a similar fate going to Stereolab's "Peng" or "Switched On, Vol. 1," or ANY Loud Family release for that matter.> > - -Mark np General Public "I'll Take You There" 12" single ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:18:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] QUESTION - (scott content, oh yeah!) On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Larry Tucker wrote: > These are two great MP3s too! Any record collector has to have a soft > spot for "Venus Records" and I can not get "Tip of the Iceberg" outta my > head. Paula says that GIRLFRIEND is one of her favorite albums and > AQUACADE reminds me of it with that earthy simple sound and immediate > guitars. Surely destined for many a Top 10 If you liked 7DSongs, you'll like AQUACADE - pure & simple. > Was that good enough Joe? Do I get my endorsement kickback now? It was. Your cookie is in the mail. :) Bonus: our CDs are not audio-watermarked! J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:29:47 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: [loud-fans] linkous quibble On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 Vivebonpop@aol.com wrote: > > I'm curious of your thoughts of the first Sparklehorse LP? > > I suppose you missed my question, Aaron. Did you care for Linkous' first > record, or do you think he didn't hit his stride until album two? > "VivaDixie" I thought was going to be hailed in critically as more of an "vivadixie" was the first sparklehorse record, but hardly linkous' first. interested parties should scrounge up a copy of the dancing hoods' _twelve jealous roses_ (one of my top "pleasepleasererelease" discs these days) with extreme prejudice ... followup _hallelujah anyway_ has a couple ace songs and a couple interesting covers, but leave it til later. it was released on cd, for the vinyl-impaired; "roses" never was. linkous split songwriting duties with bob bortnick, who was doing a&r last i heard? - -- d. - ------------------------------------------------- Mayo-Wells Media Workshop dmw@ http://www.mwmw.com mwmw.com Web Development * Multimedia Consulting * Hosting ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:37:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) First Jon, and then Jon again: > > wireless Internet is a big jukebox that plays any song you want to > > hear -- for a price, of course. Pay per spin. > > I was being flippant, of course. Actually, the economics of this kind of > environment might not work in their favor. My gut reaction is that pay per spin would definitely work in their favor. To make lots of money, you want to be able to charge the people who want the product the most the most money, and for people who don't value the product as highly, you want to charge them a low enough price to get them to buy (but high enough that you still make money). This is price discrimination, and you see it all the time (airlines, movie tickets, etc.) If they could charge you per spin, then record companies get to earn revenue on the people who aren't willing to shell out $15 for the disk as a whole, but are willing to shell out $1 to give it a listen. The people who end up listening to IBC over and over end up paying far more than $15. It's pretty easy to show that (as long as there aren't weird consumer reactions, like boycotts or whatever) record companies' revenue would increase under this system. THe good thing is that, given a once and for all choice, most consumers will choose pay per disk instead of pay per spin, so at this point, it would be pretty hard to make pay per spin catch on. Remember DIVX? - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:12:24 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Michael Mitton wrote: > If they could charge you per spin, then record companies get to earn > revenue on the people who aren't willing to shell out $15 for the disk as > a whole, but are willing to shell out $1 to give it a listen. The people > who end up listening to IBC over and over end up paying far more than $15. > It's pretty easy to show that (as long as there aren't weird consumer > reactions, like boycotts or whatever) record companies' revenue would > increase under this system. the problem is, in order to make their $10-12 bucks (same profit they'd see from a retail outlet) they either have to charge you a buck/song and release records with little or no filler (so you really want to hear 10-12 tracks) or they have to charge even more than a dollar. that's more, you'll note than you pay for, say, a jukebox play. that's also almost certainly more than the consumer market would bear on a pay per play basis - -- i'm not aware of any polling that suggest people would even pay a quarter/song. Add to that the fact that while lots of copyright controller people would love to have a 'streaming media delivery' and a 'download' be different, almost by definition, it's technically impossible - -- the data goes through your computer and out through your speakers, and if you really, really wanna, you can keep some copy of it -- and if you're tolerating mp3 quality to start with, the copy may be acceptable to you, even if you run into your analog type deck and back into your computer to re-encode it into 'your' mp3. So basically, almost no one is looking seriously at pay-per-play models -- do it as a subscription service, you remove most of the incentive to keep a copy. Of course, performance rights are based on pay-per-play models, so here we sit, somewhat mired, in terms of being able to license the sort of interactive streaming media service that the pundits keep dreaming of. wouldn't be kinda cool if rock'n'roll were actually outlawed? then only outlaws would have rock'n'roll. - -- d. - ------------------------------------------------- Mayo-Wells Media Workshop dmw@ http://www.mwmw.com mwmw.com Web Development * Multimedia Consulting * Hosting ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:42:54 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] too many notes Dan Schmidt writes: >And this will get me kicked off the list, but I can't stop listening >to the new Cake album. They'll have to kick me off too Dan! Just unzipped it (from the plastic wrap) twenty minutes or so ago. Endless bootyshake of groove; smirky, distant, ironic, witty, and incidentally perceptive lyrics; deftly placed plethora of textures; plentiful harmonies; melancholy, contra-textualizing trumpet--in short, I don't understand why more people on the list aren't tuning in. From the streets of Sacramento, Andy "The white truck is commodious and dependable, and I am fond of it. It is a part of my life. One night I dropped off to sleep after reading about the nature of the soul. I dreamed about my own soul, and found that it is a female white truck, buoyant, impatient, one that speeds along, almost too fast in an exhilarating way, skimming slightly above the road, not quite keeping to the pathway. I rather enjoy having a soul of that sort." - --Sue Hubbell, from A COUNTRY YEAR: LIVING THE QUESTIONS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:56:35 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] too many notes > Endless bootyshake of groove; smirky, distant, ironic, witty, and > incidentally perceptive lyrics; deftly placed plethora of textures; plentiful > harmonies; melancholy, contra-textualizing trumpet Thank you for saving me the trouble of explaining why I hate this band so much. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:09:57 -0500 From: steve Subject: [loud-fans] After years of struggle, Burning Man achieves cultural relevance After years of struggle, Burning Man achieves cultural relevance http://207.225.231.144/marc17/BM3/P9010051.JPG Having a WTF moment? Don't worry, it's the catbus from Hayao Miyazaki's My Neighbor Totoro. Actually, this looks to be a Mark II model, as the version based on an old school bus seems to still be under construction. http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/totoro/ - - Steve __________ HALTON, England  President Bush said Thursday he is having a hard time selling a missile defense plan to skeptical allies in Europe because he has only "vague notions" about what it would entail. - Ron Fournier, AP, 07/19/01 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:29:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jer Fairall Subject: Re: [loud-fans] too many notes Andy: > > Endless bootyshake of groove; smirky, distant, > > ironic, witty, and incidentally perceptive lyrics; > > deftly placed plethora of textures; plentiful > > harmonies; melancholy, contra-textualizing trumpet glenn: > Thank you for saving me the trouble of explaining > why I hate this band so much. Ditto, but at least they have one of the year's most inventive videos, for whatever that's worth these days. (Badly Drawn Boy's "Spitting (sic) in the Wind" is good too--and is that Joan Collins?!) Jer, whose current recently/soon to be released CD shopping list includes the new one's by Bill Janovitz, Bjork, Ben Folds, Cyndi Lauper, Beulah, Thought Industry plus the Blondie, Elvis Costello and Simon & Garfunkel re-issues. Whew. np: Matthew Sweet, IN REVERSE Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:36:15 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stef=20Hurts?= Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RIP ripping? (ns) "New Audio CD Copy Protection May Already Be Cracked. The recently-introduced Macrovision "SafeAudio" system for copy-protecting CDs may have already been broken, according to at least one European cracker site." More info at: Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 16:34:45 -0700 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: [loud-fans] Fwd: cool I just got this email from Bradley Skaught. Anyone who's been wondering what Stephen Manning and Statuesque have been up to in the three years since their ARBITERS ANONYMOUS album came out should check out this new web site www.statuesque.org.uk, which has a handful of MP3s of new songs. Everyone else, who hasn't been wondering what Stephen Manning and Statuesque have been up to lately, or more likely wonders who this Stephen Manning guy is anyway, should still check out their new web site www.statuesque.org.uk, because, it's one of the (LOL) funniest web sites you've probably seen today! - -Steve H. Bradley Skaught wrote: > Head to www.statuesque.org.uk for the first public surfacing of > Statuesque since the Arbiters Anonymous CD came out! Stephen just sent > me an email telling me about it--I haven't had a chance to check out > the MP3s yet, but it's great to have some of his stuff publicly > accessible! Tell loud-fans, too--since Stephen Manning is basically > right behind Scott Miller and Graeme Downes in the "greatest > songwriter ever" category, there should be at least some interested > parties. > > later, > B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:59:37 -0300 From: John F Butland Subject: [loud-fans] Clip: Lawsuit filed over Charley Pride CD I was about to chip in on the CD ripping thread when this appeared on Postcard2, an alt country list where the issue has been discussed sporadically, mainly because the system was being tested on a country artist. Some commented that Pride is such a non-entity commercially these days that it would be a meaningless test case. But it has also been reported that copies of the LP appeared on Napster before it was released, but were from a non-encoded CD released in Australia. Of course that may have been damage control from the encryption company. Personally I think any scheme that works this way is due to fail for two reasons. If it degrades quality people *will* notice. Maybe not when it works as intended but when it doesn't play in old units, car units, PCs, etc., people will get pissed. Are any of those video tape anti-dubbing schemes still being used? Secondly, there will always be that kid in Des Moines, Latvia, or wherever that'll code up a crack within weeks. The useful life of the schemes will never be long enough to justify the next generation development. It's sorta like a buddy of mine says about locks on your house - they only keep honest people out. Anyway, here goes: > >>From CNet News: > >http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7090886.html?tag=pt.msn.cdf.hl.ne_7090 886 > >Lawsuit targets copy-protected CDs >By Jim Hu >Staff Writer, CNET News.com >September 7, 2001, 12:25 p.m. PT > >A California woman has filed a lawsuit against an independent record label for embedding technology in CDs that blocks people from listening to songs on a computer. > >The suit, filed in California Superior Court in Marin County, alleges that Denver, Colo.-based Fahrenheit Entertainment misled consumers by failing to include an adequate disclaimer on CDs encoded with digital copyright-protection software. > >The suit also cites SunnComm, the Phoenix-based software company that created the protection program as a preliminary measure to prevent people from distributing digital copies of the songs over the Internet. >The lawsuit said the protected album, "Charley Pride: A Tribute to Jim Reeves," does not offer a disclaimer that it will not operate on computer CD players. It also requires a consumer to register personal information in a proprietary Web site before downloading the songs onto a computer, raising privacy concerns, the suit says. > >"The law requires companies who are selling products to give the consumer material information that is relevant to making decisions about whether to buy the product or not, and Fahrenheit did not do that," Ira Rothken, the attorney who filed the suit, said Friday. > >The practice of embedding copyright-protection technology in CDs is gaining popularity, as record labels seek to protect music from file swappers. The recording industry, including Bertelsmann's BMG Entertainment, is suing file-sharing service Napster for copyright infringement. Despite successful measures to cripple Napster through the courts, other file-trading clones continue to find ways to distribute MP3-encoded songs online. > >Up to now, audio on most CDs could be played on a PC. Software allows people to convert those songs into the MP3 format, compressing standard audio tracks into smaller, digital files. The resulting files can be distributed at will via the Internet or copied onto MP3 playback devices. > >SunnComm's technology prohibits people from listening to a CD on a computer without registering on a separate Web site first, making it difficult to freely copy the album. The company already has a revenue deal with German media giant Bertelsmann. > >Executives from Fahrenheit and SunnComm said they had not seen the complaint filed by Rothken. Nevertheless, Fahrenheit maintains it has adequately provided a disclaimer on its CD case informing buyers of the copyright protection embedded in the disc. > >"There's a disclaimer on the outside, and we're not preventing anyone from doing downloads," said Peter Trimarco, the chief executive of Fahrenheit. "But we're saying you have to go to the Web site to do it. It's not being designed to be a distraction." > >A photocopy of the CD's packaging faxed by Trimarco to CNET News.com includes a disclaimer that reads: "This audio CD is protected by SunnComm MediaCloQ Ver 1.0. It is designed to play in standard audio CD players only and is not intended for use in DVD players. Licensed copies of all music on this CD are available for downloading. Simply insert CD into your computer to begin." > >However, Rothken criticized the disclaimer for what it left out, such as the inability to play the CD on a computer and the inability to transfer songs onto portable MP3 devices. > >"Fahrenheit has statements on its CD case which do not address these issues," Rothken said. "The omissions are also unfair business practices." > >The lawsuit seeks an injunction against Fahrenheit and SunnComm that would keep them from tracking consumer habits and require them to provide adequate privacy notices on the CD case. > > > >-- > > > best, jfb John F Butland O- butland@nbnet.nb.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:07:12 -0400 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] Emmit Rhodes sighting? (ns) I gave up on tributes a while ago, but maybe, just maybe: Various Coming Up: An Indie Tribute To The Music Of Paul McCartney PS, US Mark Bacino, Michael Carpenter, Shazam, Masticators, Myracle Brah, C. Hillis, Cherry Twister, Andersons, Ray Paul w/Emmit Rhodes, Starbelly,etc Oglio-89126 CD $15.50 although the artist list looks more interesting on: Various Listen To What The Man Said: A Tribute To The Muisc Of Paul McCartney (PRE-ORDER: SALEABLE Sept. 18th) PS, US Matthew Sweet, Owsley, Merrymakers, Robyn Hitchcock, Minus 5, Sloan, World Party, Semisonic, Finn Brothers, Linus Of Hollywood, etc. Oglio-89125 CD $15.50 And, there's a new American Analog Set CD due out, just to add to the shopping lists. - --dana, who caught Shari's flu. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 00:11:15 EDT From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] linkous quibble In a message dated 9/7/01 1:31:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dmw@radix.net writes: > vivadixie" was the first sparklehorse record, but hardly linkous' first. > interested parties should scrounge up a copy of the dancing hoods' _twelve > jealous roses_ (one of my top "pleasepleasererelease" discs these days) > with extreme prejudice ... followup _hallelujah anyway_ has a couple ace > songs and a couple interesting covers, but leave it til later. it was > released on cd, for the vinyl-impaired; "roses" never was. linkous split > songwriting duties with bob bortnick, who was doing a&r last i heard? > > -- d. > > I didn't know this about ML. What label(s) were these on? M np Blur "Modern Life is Rubbish" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 00:20:14 EDT From: Vivebonpop@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Joe Frank Anybody on list heard any recorded output from a guy (a DJ) in CA called Joe Frank? DJ Bill Buchinski (WNCW.org) was playing him this evening, and, this is some of the funniest, wittiest stuff I've ever heard. I don't know how to describe it...dialogue set to music that would fit in a pornographic movie? Brilliant. - -Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 05:17:05 From: "Philip Rostonovich" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Joe Frank [De-Lurk] >Anybody on list heard any recorded output from a guy >(a DJ) in CA called Joe Frank? Not sure, but judging by your description you're describing the Joe Frank who's syndicated radio drama program has been running on NPR since the 80's. I got thoroughly hooked a few years ago. Some of his best shows are archived here: http://www.kcrw.org/cgi-bin/db/kcrw.pl?tmplt_type=program&show_code=jf ...and additional information can be found here: http://www.joefrank.com/html/main.html Hope this is (way too) helpful... [Re-Lurk] - -plr _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #225 *******************************