From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #198 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, August 15 2001 Volume 01 : Number 198 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] absurdity in the news [Dan McCarthy ] Re: [loud-fans] review: Jason's swap CD-Rs [Michael Zwirn ] Re: [loud-fans] absurdity in the news [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] [loud-fans] Ghost World, in general [Richard Gagnon ] Re: [loud-fans] Ghost World, in general ["glenn mcdonald" ] Re: [loud-fans] TV [Miles Goosens ] Re: [loud-fans] TV [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] TV ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] Ghost World, in general ["glenn mcdonald" ] Re: [loud-fans] TV ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] TV [Michael Mitton ] Re: [loud-fans] TV [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] TV [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:34:42 -0400 From: Dan McCarthy Subject: Re: [loud-fans] absurdity in the news At 10:53 PM 8/14/01 -0700, bbradley@namesecure.com wrote: >i just stumbled across this on the web site for my local paper >(http://www.contracostatimes.com/), a fairly well-reputed periodical at >that: > >LATEST FROM THE NEWSROOM >Updated at 6:33 p.m., Aug. 14, 2001 > >Stevie Nicks concerts postponed >Livermore fire diplaces nine >Altamont Pass accident kills 17-year-old >A's sign Long to four more years >Accused armored car guard killer claims it was not premeditated murder >Alta Bates CEO resigns >Tuesday's East Bay Biz Buzz > >WELL, then. stevie nicks has been postponed. let's not get our priorities >jumbled - put THAT one first. True that it's of lesser importance than the other entries, but it's maybe the only headline that directly affects a significant portion of its readership. I've often wondered how an accident that kills one 17-year old (for example) is of any real importance to the rest of society... and I assume that those that the accident DOES affect probably have already learned of the accident from other sources. Is reading of murders and fires really important to us, or does it just take the form of some sort of primitive gossip, a sort of entertainment? Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:43:28 -0700 From: Michael Zwirn Subject: Re: [loud-fans] review: Jason's swap CD-Rs on 8/14/01 11:40 PM, Andrew Hamlin wrote: >> Mary Lou Lord "Some Jingle Jangle Morning": I like the words and melody, >> but the arrangement is sort of flat: kind of a sub-Dinosaur Jr., >> mid-nineties, slightly hard-edged indie-rock thing. The drums seem >> plodding and get hit harder than they really need to be. > > > If this is the same version I'm thinking of (and she re-records so much I > get confused), it's from GOT NO SHADOW, my Album Of The Year 1998. Michael > Zwirn says Mary Lou recently released a live album, but I haven't found any > trace of it online. Anyone know more? That depends. "Jingle Jangle" was originally a 7'' on Kill Rock Stars, and the version on the full-length (years later) is totally rerecorded. I like the original; the second is more, well, _jangly_. Michael, who hopes with great hope that GHOST WORLD is better than PECKER, but can rave happily about HEDWIG AND THE ANGRY INCH, having seen it last evening with Michael Mitton - ------------------------------------------------------- Michael Zwirn michael@zwirn.com Home 503/232-8919 Cell 503/887-9800 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:17:28 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Ghost World GHOST WORLD's three main characters are more three-dimensional and fully realized as characters than 99% of those in movies. Maybe 99.9%. I didn't feel like this movie was telling me a story so much as giving me a glimpse; that these people are really out there somewhere. And I think GHOST WORLD may stand as Steve Buscemi's best role at the end of his career. On 8/14/01, Andrew Hamlin wrote: > >Sue: >>>> Movie recommendation: GHOST WORLD. Loved it loved it loved it. >> >>Glen: >>> Seconded. >> >>Tell us why, in a general way. > > >Can't speak for Sue or glenn of course, but I watched GHOST WORLD at the >Seattle Film Festival, knowing nothing of the comic book (still haven't read >it), and loved its frank display of, specifically, the limits of irony as a >lifestyle/worldview (John Waters opened the door to this territory with >PECKER, though that film lacked GHOST WORLD's edge); and, more generally, >the necessary tribulations of living, of determining one's relationship to >institutions, ideas, and the people with whom one shares the world. > >It's also wickedly funny and contains one of Steve Buscemi's finer >performances. > >Glad to see it getting some wider distribution, > >Andy > >"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to >be kindled." > >--Plutarch "Arf arf arf arf arf" - --Pluto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:23:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] absurdity in the news On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Dan McCarthy wrote: > At 10:53 PM 8/14/01 -0700, bbradley@namesecure.com wrote: > > > >LATEST FROM THE NEWSROOM > >Updated at 6:33 p.m., Aug. 14, 2001 > > > >Stevie Nicks concerts postponed > >Livermore fire diplaces nine > >Altamont Pass accident kills 17-year-old > >WELL, then. stevie nicks has been postponed. let's not get our priorities > >jumbled - put THAT one first. > > True that it's of lesser importance than the other entries, but it's maybe > the only headline that directly affects a significant portion of its > readership. I've often wondered how an accident that kills one 17-year old > (for example) is of any real importance to the rest of society... and I > assume that those that the accident DOES affect probably have already > learned of the accident from other sources. Is reading of murders and > fires really important to us, or does it just take the form of some sort of > primitive gossip, a sort of entertainment? That's a good question, but apparently it is "of interest" to lots of people, judging by the rapt attention paid to such events by the public. Of course, the media's attention is even rapter (that should be "raptor" for those thereby victimized), as evidenced by, say, the whole Chandra Levy thing, most of which could be summarized by repeating the headline each day NO NEWS. To take a related example: in the wake of Dale Earnhardt's death, the whole issue of crashes in auto racing got brought up - and predictably, the sport's fans were all up in arms, saying that any crashes were truly tragic and sad and assuredly not the reason they were interested in the sport. Maybe not - but I've noticed that nearly *every* ad on TV for auto racing prominently features crashes (as did the promos for that auto-racing movie that came and went quickly a few months back). Actually, another item on Brianna's list had to do w/some CEO resigning or some such: now how many people in the reading audience does *that* actually affect? - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html "It blowed up real good!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:02:15 -0400 From: Cyndy Patrick Subject: Re: [loud-fans] review: Jason's swap CD-Rs Michael Zwirn wrote: > Michael, > who hopes with great hope that GHOST WORLD is better than PECKER, but can > rave happily about HEDWIG AND THE ANGRY INCH, having seen it last evening > with Michael Mitton I quite liked "Ghost World", it had a consistently intriguing look to it and the characters were nicely fleshed out, but I found it only mildly funny. "Hedwig", on the other hand, is hilarious, and has some of the best animation of Emily Hubley's (sister to Georgia of Yo La Tengo, though I'm sure Emily's quite sick of people referring to her as such) career. - -Cyndy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:03:28 -0400 From: Richard Gagnon Subject: [loud-fans] Ghost World, in general Andy wrote: >Can't speak for Sue or glenn of course, but I watched GHOST WORLD at the >Seattle Film Festival, knowing nothing of the comic book (still haven't read >it), and loved its frank display of, specifically, the limits of irony as a >lifestyle/worldview (John Waters opened the door to this territory with >PECKER, though that film lacked GHOST WORLD's edge); and, more generally, >the necessary tribulations of living, of determining one's relationship to >institutions, ideas, and the people with whom one shares the world. > >It's also wickedly funny and contains one of Steve Buscemi's finer >performances. I saw it at Montreal's Fantasia Festival last month, where it stuck out like a sore thumb, being neither fantasy (in the genre sense) nor Asian. It was also subtle, which *really* made it incongruous with the rest of the program. It was pleasantly open-ended in tone and structure, gracefully resisting the formula of handing out pat conclusions, which made it more satisfying to me. The teen dialogue rang true, as it did in the comic. Nice to see a compromise between the "everyone's brain-damaged" (see "my so-called life, sorry glenn) and "everyone's highly literate" (see "Dawson's Creek") schools of teen dialogue. Incidentally, Dawson's Creek dialogue is closer to my teen experience...I just didn't hang out with people who couldn't form a coherent sentence as most everyone on MSCL did. Ghost World is lovingly observed, and even the most pathetic characters are treated with a measure of even-handed respect, like the art teacher and the nunchaks guy. Their individuality redeems them. Many small roles are well-filled, adding much to the movie's texture without overwhelming the film and rendering it overly episodic. Enid father's old girlfriend, the art students, the old man waiting for his bus, the record collectors, the presumed "satanists". It's easy to find this world fascinating even as it appears mundane to most. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:03:54 -0400 From: Richard Gagnon Subject: [loud-fans] Ghost World, in general Andy wrote: >Can't speak for Sue or glenn of course, but I watched GHOST WORLD at the >Seattle Film Festival, knowing nothing of the comic book (still haven't read >it), and loved its frank display of, specifically, the limits of irony as a >lifestyle/worldview (John Waters opened the door to this territory with >PECKER, though that film lacked GHOST WORLD's edge); and, more generally, >the necessary tribulations of living, of determining one's relationship to >institutions, ideas, and the people with whom one shares the world. > >It's also wickedly funny and contains one of Steve Buscemi's finer >performances. I saw it at Montreal's Fantasia Festival last month, where it stuck out like a sore thumb, being neither fantasy (in the genre sense) nor Asian. It was also subtle, which *really* made it incongruous with the rest of the program. It was pleasantly open-ended in tone and structure, gracefully resisting the formula of handing out pat conclusions, which made it more satisfying to me. The teen dialogue rang true, as it did in the comic. Nice to see a compromise between the "everyone's brain-damaged" (see "my so-called life, sorry glenn) and "everyone's highly literate" (see "Dawson's Creek") schools of teen dialogue. Incidentally, Dawson's Creek dialogue is closer to my teen experience...I just didn't hang out with people who couldn't form a coherent sentence as most everyone on MSCL did. Ghost World is lovingly observed, and even the most pathetic characters are treated with a measure of even-handed respect, like the art teacher and the nunchaks guy. Their individuality redeems them. Many small roles are well-filled, adding much to the movie's texture without overwhelming the film and rendering it overly episodic. Enid father's old girlfriend, the art students, the old man waiting for his bus, the record collectors, the presumed "satanists". It's easy to find this world fascinating even as it appears mundane to most. Rick p.s. See, Andy, I'm posting! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:17:50 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Ghost World, in general > I just didn't hang out with people who couldn't form a > coherent sentence as most everyone on MSCL did. You don't have to like MSCL if you don't want to, especially since it's dead and long gone, but I have no idea what you're talking about here. The show's only notably incoherent character was Jordan, who was *supposed* to have communication problems. Everybody else formed sentences just fine. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:20:37 -0600 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] review: Jason's swap CD-Rs At 01:02 PM 8/15/01 -0400, Cyndy Patrick wrote: >I quite liked "Ghost World", it had a consistently intriguing look to it and the >characters were nicely fleshed out, but I found it only mildly funny. "Hedwig", >on the other hand, is hilarious, and has some of the best animation of Emily >Hubley's (sister to Georgia of Yo La Tengo, though I'm sure Emily's quite sick >of people referring to her as such) career. In the animation world, Emily is *way* more likely to be referred to as John and Faith Hubley's daughter, as her stuff (the things I've seen, anyway) is largely a stylistic continuation of what they were doing. Stewart NP: INDISCRETION--Jeff Kelly (new solo album from the Green Pajamas' leader, which sounds pretty much exactly like a GPs record, unlike his other solo stuff) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:36:37 -0700 From: Elizabeth Setler Subject: Re: [loud-fans] review: Jason's swap CD-Rs At 1:02 PM -0400 8/15/01, Cyndy Patrick wrote: >I quite liked "Ghost World", it had a consistently intriguing look >to it and the >characters were nicely fleshed out, but I found it only mildly funny. I saw it on my last trip to LA, and I have to admit that I was terribly distracted by the rest of the audience's uproarious laughter at almost every line of dialogue; I probably laughed once for every 15 times a significant chunk of the crowd did. While I still liked the film, I think I need to see it again with a smaller, less-tuned-in audience before I can really appreciate it. >"Hedwig", >on the other hand, is hilarious, and has some of the best animation of Emily >Hubley's (sister to Georgia of Yo La Tengo, though I'm sure Emily's quite sick >of people referring to her as such) career. Saw this on the same trip, and absolutely adored it. Once it opens locally, I may go see it every night. (OK, maybe every other night.) I could have gone to see the stage version any number of times, and am now deeply regretting not having done so. - -- Elizabeth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:10:01 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Ghost World, in general Rick and glenn wrote: >> I just didn't hang out with people who couldn't form a >> coherent sentence as most everyone on MSCL did. > >You don't have to like MSCL if you don't want to, especially since it's dead >and long gone, but I have no idea what you're talking about here. The show's >only notably incoherent character was Jordan, who was *supposed* to have >communication problems. Everybody else formed sentences just fine. I wouldn't say "incoherent," but MSCL's writers, like, seemed, like, to, like, think, like, all, like, teens, like, said, like, "like," like, like, a, like, lot. This somehow proved that they understood the kids of "today," and the substitution of a token word for actual insight was especially glaring in the early episodes. Only the bravura performances of the actors playing the kids kept me watching at all. The writers improved as the season went on, as did the show overall, so I was glad I stuck with MSCL, but I totally understand why Rick might feel the way he does. Speaking of TV shows that feature teens, I've been watching GILMORE GIRLS reruns, and I still don't get what all the fuss is about. As Loud-Fan fans of the show told me, during the second half of the season they did do a smidge of character development with some of the supporting cast, but those characters still strike me as placeholders for one-dimensional personality traits rather than as full-fledged human beings. It's too precious, too self-satisfied with its cleverness, and not nearly as clever as it thinks it is. Lauren Graham is great and is obviously having a blast playing Lorelei, but that ain't enough for me. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:15:59 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV >I wouldn't say "incoherent," but MSCL's writers, like, seemed, like, to, >like, think, like, all, like, teens, like, said, like, "like," like, like, >a, like, lot. This somehow proved that they understood the kids of >"today," and the substitution of a token word for actual insight was >especially glaring in the early episodes. Only the bravura performances of >the actors playing the kids kept me watching at all. The writers improved >as the season went on, as did the show overall, so I was glad I stuck with >MSCL, but I totally understand why Rick might feel the way he does. > >Speaking of TV shows that feature teens, I've been watching GILMORE GIRLS >reruns, and I still don't get what all the fuss is about. As Loud-Fan fans >of the show told me, during the second half of the season they did do a >smidge of character development with some of the supporting cast, but those >characters still strike me as placeholders for one-dimensional personality >traits rather than as full-fledged human beings. It's too precious, too >self-satisfied with its cleverness, and not nearly as clever as it thinks >it is. Lauren Graham is great and is obviously having a blast playing >Lorelei, but that ain't enough for me. Other than FREAKS AND GEEKS (and the late and lamented ROLLERJAM, which might make you all discount everything else I'm about to say) this is the only TV show of the past three years that I've actually looked forward to each week, and here's why: - --Women I know who watch the show say it's the most accurate portrayal of female-female relationships they've ever seen on TV, and whether that's true or not, I love the show because it just feels like something I've never seen before. It's probably the only TV show I've watched in recent years where I feel that the main female characters are written by women and not by men who want their female characters to be some sort of male fantasy of what a woman is or should be. - --Rory is the only TV teen who's neither a bufoon nor painfully angst-ridden. That, alone, makes the show totally refreshing. And, to be honest, I think that with the exception of the annoying French hotel guy, the characters do have depth, much moreso than characters on, say, ED or ALLY McBEAL. I guess we just have our own definition of what depth is. - --It's f'hilarious! Oh, and the music is cool too. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:16:29 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV Aaron says: >Other than FREAKS AND GEEKS (and the late and lamented ROLLERJAM, which >might make you all discount everything else I'm about to say) this is the >only TV show of the past three years that I've actually looked forward to >each week, and here's why: I haven't seen ROLLERJAM, but my anti-F&G opinions are well-known here. I won't reiterate them here, though I'll gladly do so off-list. >--Rory is the only TV teen who's neither a bufoon nor painfully >angst-ridden. That, alone, makes the show totally refreshing. I'd say Eric, Hyde, and Donna on THAT '70s SHOW and Warren Cheswick on ED, out of the shows that I watch, count in this category too. But it's not exactly a crowded category, is it? I agree about Rory, and had meant to mention her in my previous post. >And, to be >honest, I think that with the exception of the annoying French hotel guy, >the characters do have depth, much moreso than characters on, say, ED or >ALLY McBEAL. I guess we just have our own definition of what depth is. I dunno -- everyone here probably knows how much I hate all David E. Kelley shows (like with F&G, I won't get into discussing them again), so I'm with you on the ALLY McBEAL front. But my beloved ED? Please refrain from uttering any sentences that contain both ED and ALLY McBEAL, unless it's one like "ED wipes the floor with Kelley crapola like ALLY McBEAL. :-) >--It's f'hilarious! We must have our own definitions of what "f'hilarious" is. :-) wondering if a Cockney furniture guy would send me a Rena Sofer, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:21:28 -0600 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV At 02:16 PM 8/15/01 -0500, Miles Goosens wrote: > >And, to be > >honest, I think that with the exception of the annoying French hotel guy, > >the characters do have depth, much moreso than characters on, say, ED or > >ALLY McBEAL. I guess we just have our own definition of what depth is. > >I dunno -- everyone here probably knows how much I hate all David E. Kelley >shows (like with F&G, I won't get into discussing them again), so I'm with >you on the ALLY McBEAL front. But my beloved ED? Please refrain from >uttering any sentences that contain both ED and ALLY McBEAL, unless it's >one like "ED wipes the floor with Kelley crapola like ALLY McBEAL. :-) While I too love ED, it seems odd that someone can claim that the supporting characters on GILMORE GIRLS are shallowly quirky and then turn around and praise the show that has Shirley, Kenny, Phil and the grouchy old doctor, all of whom are way more one-note and "colorful" than almost all of the supporting characters on GILMORE GIRLS. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:24:14 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV >But my beloved ED? Please refrain from >uttering any sentences that contain both ED and ALLY McBEAL, unless it's >one like "ED wipes the floor with Kelley crapola like ALLY McBEAL. Sorry--that's not really fair for me to have done that. I've had the ED dicussion with Stewart off-list. I just find the show to be trying so painfully hard that I don't find it funny, nor can I drum up sympathy for the characters, who deep down in their hearts are way too mainstream for my tastes. >We must have our own definitions of what "f'hilarious" is. :-) Which explains why a lot of people find ED funny and I don't! Hell, I'm just about the only person in the world who doesn't find THE SIMPSONS funny. Something about that humor hits too close to home. My only explanation is this: I was watching a documentary about Benny Hill. I've always thought that the fact that I find him funny either makes me a hypocrite or perpetually juvenile. In an interview with one of his friends, the comment was made that "Benny was funny because, in the end, the joke was always on him." More importantly, unlike, say, Ellen Degeneres or Warren Cheswick, he was able to make the joke be on himself without creating situations that were painfully embarrassing. That pretty much sums up my own sense of humor. Everything I love is, in its heart, happy-spirited, or at least not mean-spirited towards others. this also explains why I never liked comics who range from Andrew Dice Clay to Dennis Leary. Hey--some peopel like angry comics. It's all a taste thing, and I think it's why F&G fans tend to be GILMORE GIRLS fans. Aaron, proving myself to be, in the words of King Missle, a wuss _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:28:37 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Ghost World, in general > I wouldn't say "incoherent," but MSCL's writers, like, seemed, like, to, > like, think, like, all, like, teens, like, said, like, "like," like, like, > a, like, lot. This somehow proved that they understood the kids of > "today," and the substitution of a token word for actual insight was > especially glaring in the early episodes. That kind of tokenism is certainly a common characterization cop-out in general adult portrayal of teens, but I happen to carry transcripts of all 19 MSCL episodes around with me, and I just re-read the first one to see if I was misremembering, but no, as I thought, "like" is really not overused, and it certainly doesn't take the place of insight. I think the main complaint about MSCL was that it attempted *too* much insight into its characters, not too little. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:57:37 -0700 From: bbradley@namesecure.com Subject: [loud-fans] just too damn funny for words from craigslist.org: once upon mid morning dreary sitting in the cubicle near me over the chest high divider that seems somewhat higher than before as i dawdled, somewhat dreaming from the cube, i heard a "clicking" a furious frantic clicking that urked my being to its core "tis my able minded colleage working harder than before." that is all and nothing more. ah distinctly i remember doin bank rec's from december.. and each seperate transaction was more fucked than the one before.. eagerly i wished the morrow to erase from me my sorrow- my cubic, clicking sorrow that made me want to scream "you whore... stop your incessant clicking madness before i toss you out the door!!" that's all i'd say, and nothing more. At this point, my angst grew stronger, as i could wait no longer "Sweet-tits, honeyass, truly your fogiveness i implore but the fact is i was sitting and from your station comes a clicking... a furious, frantic clicking that i've never heard before! please don't do it anymore back to my cube i turned as the rage inside me burned.. all to soon i'd come to learn.. learn of the countenance she bore her eyes fixed on me puzzled as my anger i tried to muzzle rethinking silly subtleties of office politics and law thus i sat engaged in guessing but no syllable expressing the question truely pressing... pressing me like Jordan on the floor.. "will this go on forevermore?" And my colleague, never flitting still is clicking still is clicking Up and down blue titled postings looking for a carnivore... and a boyfriend, and a girlfriend just to "connect with", she's no lesbian she's got her pics, she wants to send em.. of course she's "never done this before" she clicks and clicks her day away and she never seems to bore a craigslist junkie forevermore... http://www.craigslist.org/best/1432577.html - -- brianna bradley web designer, web ops http://namesecure.com IT ALL STARTS WITH A WEB ADDRESS tel: 925.609.1101 x206 fax: 925.609.1112 "The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing." Cole's Axiom http://startrekonice.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:27:55 -0700 From: bbradley@namesecure.com Subject: [loud-fans] yuji miller? scott oniki? i can't go to the deli next door to my office anymore. the stereo was playing Kiss That Frog by Peter Gabriel and the hag, i mean nice lady, making sandwiches said "Oh! This is the new Peter Clapton song!" um, no. and is peter clapton the step brother of eric frampton? when i told her what it was, she said, "wow - they sound exactly the same". i told her the album info, because she asked, but i had a split second of 'do i really want this person to become a gabriel fan? that'd put us in the same category' scary..... - -- brianna bradley web designer, web ops http://namesecure.com IT ALL STARTS WITH A WEB ADDRESS tel: 925.609.1101 x206 fax: 925.609.1112 "The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing." Cole's Axiom http://startrekonice.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:36:55 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV Stewart: >While I too love ED, it seems odd that someone can claim that the >supporting characters on GILMORE GIRLS are shallowly quirky and then turn >around and praise the show that has Shirley, Kenny, Phil and the grouchy >old doctor, all of whom are way more one-note and "colorful" than almost >all of the supporting characters on GILMORE GIRLS. I don't find ED's cast shallowly quirky. I'm not sure if I'll explain it well enough, but there's something about ED's overall feel and tone that I like a lot, and Shirley, Kenny, Phil, and the grouchy old doctor seem to be natural extensions of this world. (I'd also exclude Phil from being "one-note" -- "colorful," yes, but "one-note" he ain't!) Stuckeyville seems to be a fully-fleshed-out creation, with all these characters organically sprouting up from it, whereas Stars Hollow seems like it's Lorelei and Rory moving around cardboard cutouts. This brings me to another ED vs. GILMORE point -- my count is two fleshed-out GILMORE characters (good thing they're the main two!), whereas my ED count is... hm, Ed himself, Carol, Mike, Nancy, Molly, Warren, Bonnie Haynes, maybe even Nick. In other words, there's a core cast of fully-drawn ED characters, which creates a sufficient level of three-dimensional-ness to allow for Kenny, Shirley, and the doc. I also think that the writers of ED are clever about working in bits of dialogue that suggest that there's more to characters like Shirley and Kenny than we've seen on-screen as of yet. Tantalizing glimpses seem like enough for the first season, which naturally focused quite a bit on Ed himself; we'll see if the second season delivers on that promise. Aaron: >Hell, I'm just about the only person in the world who doesn't find THE >SIMPSONS funny. Something about that humor hits too close to home. My >only explanation is this: >I was watching a documentary about Benny Hill. I've always thought that the >fact that I find him funny either makes me a hypocrite or perpetually >juvenile. In an interview with one of his friends, the comment was made >that "Benny was funny because, in the end, the joke was always on him." >More importantly, unlike, say, Ellen Degeneres or Warren Cheswick, he was >able to make the joke be on himself without creating situations that were >painfully embarrassing. That pretty much sums up my own sense of humor. >Everything I love is, in its heart, happy-spirited, or at least not >mean-spirited towards others. I think in general this explains a lot of our disagreements about TV -- my favorites tend to be of the Deep Dark Truthful Mirror and/or cynical variety, hence EVERYBODY LOVES RAYMOND, Letterman, THE DAILY SHOW, HILL STREET BLUES, THE SIMPSONS (though the last three seasons have been awful awful awful), and NEWHART tend to populate my TV world. There's nothing wrong with not wanting more darkness in your life; lord knows you'll get enough in the course of everyday life without inviting more into your living room. But actually, ED is an exception to my usual taste in TV, since I see ED as generally sweet, fun, and uplifting (in the best non-cloying sense of that term). In fact, I'd've picked it as a show that you'd love and I'd dislike, based on the promo spots and description of the show. I also submit that Warren Cheswick's painful embarrassment usually comes only from overconfidence and hubris: good things happen when he's being himself, like his attracting Donna Tozzi; bad things happen when he gets the big head and/or gives in to his shallower tendencies, like when he fouled up getting a prom date by rebuffing Donna on the hopes (fueled by his friends as well as his hormones) that cheerleader Jessica Martell would actually allow him to escort her to the prom. glenn: >That kind of tokenism is certainly a common characterization cop-out in >general adult portrayal of teens, but I happen to carry transcripts of all >19 MSCL episodes around with me, and I just re-read the first one to see if >I was misremembering, but no, as I thought, "like" is really not overused, >and it certainly doesn't take the place of insight. I think the main >complaint about MSCL was that it attempted *too* much insight into its >characters, not too little. I've never scanned the transcripts, so you may well be right about the overuse of "like." This could also depend on your definition of "overuse." I'm not touching the "insight" issue, other than to say that the second half of MSCL and the first season of ONCE AND AGAIN are the only Herskovitz/Zwick projects that didn't wholly succumb to the Bedford Falls hallmark, unearned pathos. In fact, the second season of ONCE AND AGAIN was so brutally bad that it made me think that we were best spared a second season of MSCL if this sort of fate awaited it. But as Aaron says of comedy, it's a matter of taste. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:57:08 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV >This brings me to another ED vs. GILMORE point -- my count is two >fleshed-out GILMORE characters (good thing they're the main two!), whereas >my ED count is... hm, Ed himself, Carol, Mike, Nancy, Molly, Warren, Bonnie >Haynes, maybe even Nick. In other words, there's a core cast of >fully-drawn ED characters, which creates a sufficient level of >three-dimensional-ness to allow for Kenny, Shirley, and the doc. Here's where GILMORE GIRLS fans and ED fans will differ. My feeling is that Ed and Mike, and maybe Nancy, are the only fully-drawn characters on ED. In an entire season of shows, Carol, supposedly the second-most important charcter on the show, has proven to have no personality whatsoever. At least, that's how I see it. You may say the same about Lane, Lorelei's parents, Sookie, etc, etc, but it's obviously a matter of taste here because this is the exact opposite of the reaction Jill and I had to this show. She actually has much more of a problem with ED than I do, mostly for the reasons I praised GILMORE GIRLS before, that she thinks the female characters exist only in terms of how they relate to the male characters. >I also think that the writers of ED are clever about working in bits of >dialogue that suggest that there's more to characters like Shirley and >Kenny than we've seen on-screen as of yet. I actually like those charcters, a lot. They do appear to have yet-unseen depth to them. >There's nothing >wrong with not wanting more darkness in your life; I don't disagree at all! I love a lot of black humor. I'm just pretty sensitive to the fine line between humor that laughs with the downtrodden vs. humor that laughs at them. Anyway, something has kept me from giving up on ED, even though I'm not really enjoying it. Maybe I just want to learn more about Shirley and Kenny... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:38:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Miles Goosens wrote: > This brings me to another ED vs. GILMORE point -- my count is two > fleshed-out GILMORE characters (good thing they're the main two!), whereas My count for GG would be maybe 5 or 6. I won't quibble with anyone who votes for 3 or more fleshed-out characters, but I have to disagree with two, because Rory's boyfriend, Dean, is definitely a well-drawn, interesting character. While the hair certainly gives the impression that he's going to be a 2D, Stars Hollow version of Ethan Hawke, he's had some great scenes, like struggling to tell his opinion of 1950s Donna Reed to Rory and Lorelai. But how many good characters does a show need to have anyway? Since most TV has 0, I'd say even 2 is a pretty good number. - --Michael p.s. The last three seasons of the Simpsons has been awful awful awful, compared to the earlier 9 (or so) seasons. But even so, it's better than nearly every other sit-com out there. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:48:39 -0600 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV At 03:36 PM 8/15/01 -0500, Miles Goosens wrote: >This brings me to another ED vs. GILMORE point -- my count is two >fleshed-out GILMORE characters (good thing they're the main two!), whereas >my ED count is... hm, Ed himself, Carol, Mike, Nancy, Molly, Warren, Bonnie >Haynes, maybe even Nick. In other words, there's a core cast of >fully-drawn ED characters, which creates a sufficient level of >three-dimensional-ness to allow for Kenny, Shirley, and the doc. Personally, I think Carol Vessey is a completely blank slate almost entirely devoid of personality or endearing qualities, which is really my only major problem with the entire show. I have never seen any reason *why* Ed is obsessed with her, especially when there's Molly, who seems to be cuter, funnier, smarter, and probably better in bed, but is constantly relegated to "moony fat girl with relationship problems and self-esteem issues" by the writers. Miles also seems to be unaware of the fact (which is fair enough, since as he's said, he has not been watching the show regularly, so he can't be expected to pick up on the episode-to-episode changes) that the most fleshed-out character on GILMORE GIRLS has proven to be Lorelai's mother Emily. In less capable hands, she would be a completely one-dimensional shrew, but she's a well-rounded character with unexpected stores of compassion and humor (a particularly snarky kind of humor at that, as in the scene where she reminisces fondly about an aged former Nazi she and Richard knew in Switzerland). Richard Gilmore's become an equally well-rounded character, so that's four before you even leave the immediate family. Add in Lane, Sookie (who unlike Molly is a non-moony fat girl with an active romantic life and self-esteem to burn, which is particularly impressive considering how flat and one-note she came off in the pilot), Paris (another brilliantly written character, who in any other show would just be the school bitch) and Luke, and that's eight well-written, multi-faceted characters. Admittedly, there are a couple of characters who could stand to be fleshed out some more -- Rory's boyfriend Dean and Lorelai's on-again off-again suitor Max especially could use some more narrative meat on their bones -- and there's some others who are strictly there for comic relief. However, the comic relief characters on ED are often given entirely random character traits ("Hey! Let's make Kenny a former pediatric nurse!") for the sake of one scene, whereas the established personalities of the comic relief characters on GILMORE GIRLS are what drives the humor of their scenes. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:00:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Michael Mitton wrote: > On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Miles Goosens wrote: > > > This brings me to another ED vs. GILMORE point -- my count is two > > fleshed-out GILMORE characters (good thing they're the main two!), whereas > > My count for GG would be maybe 5 or 6. I won't quibble with anyone who > votes for 3 or more fleshed-out characters, but I have to disagree with > two, because Rory's boyfriend, Dean, is definitely a well-drawn, > interesting character. While the hair certainly gives the impression that > he's going to be a 2D, Stars Hollow version of Ethan Hawke, he's had some > great scenes, like struggling to tell his opinion of 1950s Donna Reed to > Rory and Lorelai. In the pro-Gilmore Girls camp. Let's see, reasonably fleshed out characters (vs., presumably, one-note characters - as in, whenever they show up, you know what they're going to do, right?): Lorelai, Rory, Dean, Emily, Richard, Luke, Sookie, Paris, maybe even Tristan...hell, Christopher was fairly developed in the handful of episodes he appeared in. Cardboard cutouts? Michel, Miss Patty, Mrs. Kim, the grumpy harpist (who seems to have disappeared), Sally Struthers' character (probably), the market owner (maybe), Paris's slutty friends...that's about it. In each case, when those characters show up, you know pretty much what they're going to do (snoot, flirt, disapprove, grump, eccentricate, boosterize, flirt). In between? They should do more with Lane, I think, and I'd like to know more about Max - but neither fall into the one-dimensional realm. They seem more like actual people whom we just don't know well yet. I think the problem I'd imagine people having is that the dialogue is just *too* witty - and Lorelai's motormouth is just too much sometimes, to the extent that she can be annoying even beyond the extent that she's meant to be occasionally annoying. I'm with Miles on _That '70s Show_ - although it seems to be getting a bit tired lately. I'm getting tired of the whole Eric/Donna thing: he does something stupid, she's pissed, they gradually make up, etc. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::beliefs are ideas going bald:: __Francis Picabia__ ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #198 *******************************