From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #181 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, August 2 2001 Volume 01 : Number 181 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [loud-fans] While we're giving stuff away... ["Keegstra, Russell" ] RE: [loud-fans] While we're giving stuff away... [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffr] Re: [loud-fans] Area: One Festival review [Roger Winston ] Re: [loud-fans] Area: One Festival review [John Cooper ] Re: [loud-fans] Convinced [Matthew Weber ] Re: [loud-fans] Convinced [Matthew Weber ] Re: [loud-fans] Scott Miller, meet Scott Miller [Miles Goosens ] Re: [loud-fans] Convinced [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] [loud-fans] Giveaway IV: The Final Injection [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey <] Re: [loud-fans] Convinced [Dan Schmidt ] [loud-fans] way to give [dmw ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 07:10:47 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] While we're giving stuff away... Me/John: >>If you really want Red, and can give a heavy prog album a good >>home, pick a number between 100 and 1000. My computer has >>already picked a random number in that range. Whoever is >>closest wins. > >I'm glad to hear you're doing it this way. If you had picked the number >yourself, I would suspect the whole thing was rigged! Now, did you *ask* >your computer to do this, or did it just do it on its own? My computer does >things like that, sometimes. Interestingly enough, when I originally thought of What Number Am I Thinking Of I just figured 1 to 100, and then I immediately thought the number I'd choose would be 37. Then I figured the computer could pick a better "random" number than that, and it picked 18. Two of the three respondents picked 37. Is there something about that number that subconsciously says "Pick me, I'm random!" Russ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:32:03 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: RE: [loud-fans] While we're giving stuff away... On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Keegstra, Russell wrote: > Two of the three respondents picked 37. > > Is there something about that number that subconsciously says > "Pick me, I'm random!" I think prime numbers "sound" more random than non-primes. = i do what i am told. i am not opinionated. i accept without | dmw@ = questioning. i do not make a fuss. i am a good consumer. |radix.net = pathetic-caverns.com * fecklessbeast.com * shoddyworkmanship.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 08:31:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [loud-fans] While we're giving stuff away... On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Keegstra, Russell wrote: > Interestingly enough, when I originally thought of What Number Am I > Thinking Of I just figured 1 to 100, and then I immediately thought the > number I'd choose would be 37. Then I figured the computer could pick > a better "random" number than that, and it picked 18. > > Two of the three respondents picked 37. > > Is there something about that number that subconsciously says > "Pick me, I'm random!" Actually, yes. It's a prime, and I recall reading somewhere that when people choose numbers at random, they tend toward numbers with higher-digit figures (7, 8, 9) to a greater degree than a truly random sample would suggest. I suppose the "reasoning" is something like: 36, that can't be a "random" number, because it has all kinds of associations, divisors, etc. I'd bet, too, that when asked to pick a number between 1 and 100, the least-picked numbers are "1" and "100." (I assume the intention is to imply "between 1 and 100 inclusively.") And how come no one ever picks letters at random? "I'm thinking of a letter between C and U..." - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::sex, drugs, revolt, Eskimos, atheism:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 07:58:38 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Area: One Festival review At Wednesday 8/1/2001 07:17 PM -0700, bbradley@namesecure.com wrote: Jeff wrote: > > Area: One was put together by Moby... > > > There were more than a handful of, shall we say, distinguished adults > > (read:balding) in attendance.... > > > Regardless, and as expected, New Order's set was wonderful, and they had >the > > help of Billy Corgan.... > >I sense a trend here... > >>> > >it wasn't age discrimination, just a comment :) there were also more kids >than i expected, and a good deal of them were with said baby boomers. I suspect Jeff was referring to the look (i.e. bald/shaved head) of the people mentioned rather than the age, though who knows what that crotchety old (er, middle-aged) fart-bot ever really means. Ooh, the years burn, burn, burn Later. --Rog - -- When toads are not enough: http://www.reignoffrogs.com ------------------------------ Date: 02 Aug 2001 10:07:37 -0400 From: Dan Schmidt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Solo Bob Jer Fairall writes: | > Which is good and which is bad? | | Oh, sorry. KID MARINE was the one I liked and NOT IN | MY AIRFORCE the one I hated (I'd place WAVED OUT more | or less in the middle, maybe leaning a little more | toward the former than the latter). Of course, I | *still* haven't heard the much-raved-about SPEAK | KINDLY OF YOUR VOLLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT so maybe I | should be getting that one before I worry about the | new one. Yes, SPEAK KINDLY should definitely be your next stop on the solo Bob express. I know ana is a big fan of it too, I forget if she still hangs out in these parts. And give NOT IN MY AIRFORCE a few more tries, won't you? Here are the standout tracks in my opinion, to give you something to hang on to: 3. Girl Named Captain 4. Get Under It 9. Chance to Buy an Island 12. Flat Beauty 13. King of Arthur Avenue 15. Psychic Pilot Clocks Out Also, feel free to stop after track 15 the first few times. The other ones were tacked on because Matador didn't want to release a separate EP with Bob's acoustic guitar noodlings, so he added them to the end of this record. They're fine once you get used to them, but before that it can make trudging through the end of the album rather depressing. - -- http://www.dfan.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:33:55 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Area: One Festival review Yesterday a hip young thing wrote: >Which brings me to when I felt like I had the musical taste of a 50-year >old. There were more than a handful of, shall we say, distinguished adults >(read:balding) in attendance. Now, usually there are at least a few >representatives of unexpected age groups at any given show, but there were a >lot of folks in their 40's and 50's. This show was billed first and >foremost as a festival put together by rave legend Moby. So what were these >people doing there? I dunno, maybe they just got tired of sitting in their rocking chairs and dreaming of days long past. >Moby's name is followed immediately by 'New Order,' who >was (or is) apparently very, very popular among that age group. Yeah, 'New Order' is piped into the hallways of retirement homes all over America. It makes the strained beets go down better. >Color me stumped, but when New Order took the stage, the >50-something balding guy in >front of me starting hopping up and down and clapping like a >hyperactive mental patient. Isn't it embarrassing when old people start dancing? They don't know how to do it at all, and you have to worry that they'll fall and break their hips or something. The orderly in charge of the field trip should have been supervising more closely. > In all honesty, New Order was my reason for going, so all >of a sudden I felt like I was part of this 40 and 50-something group in some >twisted, unfair way. You know what? In fifteen or twenty years you're gonna have this feeling a lot more often. Especially on occasions when you go out to shows featuring over-the-hill bands like 'Belle da Gama' and the twentysomethings there look at you and wonder who you're trying to kid. Color me stumped! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:11:28 -0400 From: Michael Bowen Subject: [loud-fans] Scott Miller, meet Scott Miller A fine chap named Scott Miller has been expounding on the virtues of his Tennessee namesake on the Richard Thompson list. He just mentioned that he hasn't ever heard anything by Our Scott, so I volunteered to burn a compilation CD for him. I have pretty much the entire GT/LF catalog on CD (missing T2E2C). Are there any tracks that you all would feel to be absolutely essential? MB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:38:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jer Fairall Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Scott Miller, meet Scott Miller We had a similar discussion on-list sometime last year and I compiled a virtual 100 min. mix tape of what I felt would make a good Scott primer. Of course, this was planned as a tape, not a CD but if you do a 2CD set, this gives you room to add stuff. "For Beginners Only: An Introduction to Scott Miller" Side 1: "With All Our Well-Trained Ears" (Game Theory) Here Comes Everybody 24 The Red Baron Waltz The Halls Always Rayon Drive Erica's World The Only Lesson Learned Girl with a Guitar Exactly What We Don't Want To Hear We Love You Carol and Alison Nothing New World's Easiest Job The Real Sheila One More For St. Michael Throwing The Election Last Day That We're Young Side 2: "Join The Elite" (Loud Family) Inverness Self Righteous Boy Reduced To Tears Jimmy Still Comes Around Idiot Son Spot The Setup Soul Drain I'm Not Really a Spring Such Little Non-believers Screwed Over By The Stylish Introverts Just Gone Where They Go Back To School But Still Get Depressed CryptoSicko Deee-pression Years of Wrong Impressions For Beginners Only Give-In World Motion of Ariel Jer ===== Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:40:23 -0700 From: bbradley@namesecure.com Subject: RE: [loud-fans] While we're giving stuff away... i'll second that. that's exactly what i was thinking. not only is it a prime number as a whoe, both digits are prime. maybe that's why. are there other numbers that are like that? i'm sure there are. brain not working. i think a good deal of them include a 2 or a 1, which i'm unlikely to pick for some reason. weird. - -- brianna bradley - -----Original Message----- From: dmw [mailto:dmw@radix.net] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:32 AM To: where they have to let you in Subject: RE: [loud-fans] While we're giving stuff away... On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Keegstra, Russell wrote: > Two of the three respondents picked 37. > > Is there something about that number that subconsciously says > "Pick me, I'm random!" I think prime numbers "sound" more random than non-primes. = i do what i am told. i am not opinionated. i accept without | dmw@ = questioning. i do not make a fuss. i am a good consumer. |radix.net = pathetic-caverns.com * fecklessbeast.com * shoddyworkmanship.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:16:47 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] While we're giving stuff away... "Keegstra, Russell" wrote: > > Interestingly enough, when I originally thought of What Number Am I > Thinking Of I just figured 1 to 100, and then I immediately thought the > number I'd choose would be 37. Then I figured the computer could pick > a better "random" number than that, and it picked 18. > > Two of the three respondents picked 37. > > Is there something about that number that subconsciously says > "Pick me, I'm random!" well, actually, it's just my favorite number, so i pick it whenever i have the opportunity. nothing about randomness for me, i just can't decide whether i prefer 3 or 7, and i like the way 37 looks and sounds better than 73. and, no, it has nothing to do with 3 and 7 being symbolically holy numbers either. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 13:58:45 -0500 From: Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Convinced Jeff sez: [...] I fairly persuaded myself that there have been two major, revolutionary changes in rock (and roll) history: (1) the confluence of the Beatles, Dylan, and the Byrds (confluxifating the two), which moved both lyrics and music beyond either blues- or teen-based format; and (2) the wake of the punk revolution, which, perhaps surprisingly, given the reputation of punk per se, not only allowed bands to jettison blues influence entirely(*) but, in setting itself up against the big, bloated rock star image, cleared the way for musicians to just be normal, non-egotistical folks. I mean, obviously, there are a zillion qualifications to be addendum'd here - - but, uh, comments? (*) This probably would have happened regardless, just because of timing: at some point, it was just no longer the case that the '50s rock repertoire formed common ground among rock musicians. Except in certain specialized circles, I seriously doubt you could round up a bunch of young musicians who'd never played together and expect them to be capable of a passable run through "Blue Suede Shoes." Even the Beatles are about to disappear over that particular horizon - hell, even yer '70s hard rock acts are going that way soon. (That is, as the music you can assume as lingua franca among any random batch of teens and early twenties musicians...the real problem is, which acts/styles are?) <><><><><><><><><> I get what you're saying here, but I have to take exception with the notion that rock has jettisoned its blues influences. Here is an off-the-top-of-my-head, far-from-definitive list of characteristics of the blues which continue to be crucial to rock: 1> The arrangement. Guitar, bass, drums, singer, and maybe some kind of keyboard. Rock was not the first music played with this sort of ensemble. 2> I-IV-V. This will never go away as long as the move "V-I" is understood as a resolution. Even in cases where someone tries to devise alternate forms (such as when that dead guy from that Nirvana band wrote 2/3 of an enormously influential multiplatinum album using I-III), their imitators nearly invariably replicate textures and dynamics, but resort to these same damn chord changes. 3> Keying up to the IV for the bridge. Buddy Holly brought this simple and effective change-on-the-thrird-part variation to pop, and it has not left. 4> The pentatonic scale. This remains the staple playground of the rock guitar solo. When punk bands use guitar solos, they (the bands, not the solos) seem actually more inclined to rely on this than many other rock subgenres. Bending the V note (which is the third note in the pentatonic scale), generally up a half step or thereabouts, resulting in a nice dissonant tritone from tonic, is indisputably a blues move. And millions of people who imagine themselves as "rocking" are doing this right now. 5> The backbeat. The snare falling on the three is the single most common rhythmic move in all of rock, and rock did originate this on it's own. 6> Adding sixths, especially on the backbeat. This is still used all over the pop and rock map. Rob Poor's bassline even does a variation of this in "Aerodeliria". It's most commonly associated with Chuck Berry (who as I see it represents the transition from blues to rock), but Jimmy Reed, who slightly predates Berry, and is undoubtedly blues, not rock, did this all the time. And I'm sure it predates him, too. 6> The seventh chord, essential to blues, is still probably the most common harmonic extension in guitar-based rock as played in standard tuning. So the blues in rock hasn't gone away, and isn't going any time soon. And one could surely make a case for many of these attributes not being originated in blues, instead coming from earlier styles and forms, but that does not override the fact that blues is where rock got them from. I am not myself inclined to do this, but one could also easily make a plausible case that if all trace of blues influence were to be eradicated, that the resulting music might not be definable as rock. Even Sonic Youth, whose avant-noize aspirations made them at one point my pick for the act most likely to burst the blues bubble once and for all, have tunes like "Silver Rocket", which is basically Eand G, or some transposition thereof, a move at least as old as Robert Johnson. well I woke up this morning, - --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:33:33 -0500 From: Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Convinced Oops! When I said, "Bending the V note (which is the third note in the pentatonic scale), generally up a half step or thereabouts, resulting in a nice dissonant tritone from tonic, is indisputably a blues move," what I really meant was, "Bending the IV note...(etc.)." so sorry, - --DCM ------------------------------ Date: 02 Aug 2001 15:29:57 -0400 From: Dan Schmidt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Convinced Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com writes: | I get what you're saying here, but I have to take exception with the notion that | rock has jettisoned its blues influences. Here is an off-the-top-of-my-head, | far-from-definitive list of characteristics of the blues which continue to be | crucial to rock: | | [...] | | 2> I-IV-V. This will never go away as long as the move "V-I" is understood as | a resolution. Additionally, the fact that the final resolution comes as V-IV-I rather than as IV-V-I, as is more common in classical music. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions in both genres, but V-IV-I is a valid cadential formula in rock in a way it is not in classical music, and as far as I can tell that comes from the last 4 bars of a 12 bar blues. - -- http://www.dfan.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:51:58 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Convinced At 03:29 PM 8/2/01 -0400, Dan Schmidt wrote: >Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com writes: > >| I get what you're saying here, but I have to take exception with the >notion that >| rock has jettisoned its blues influences. Here is an >off-the-top-of-my-head, >| far-from-definitive list of characteristics of the blues which continue >to be >| crucial to rock: >| >| [...] >| >| 2> I-IV-V. This will never go away as long as the move "V-I" is >understood as >| a resolution. > >Additionally, the fact that the final resolution comes as V-IV-I >rather than as IV-V-I, as is more common in classical music. >Obviously there are plenty of exceptions in both genres, but V-IV-I is >a valid cadential formula in rock in a way it is not in classical >music, and as far as I can tell that comes from the last 4 bars of a >12 bar blues. > >-- >http://www.dfan.org In a lot of rock/pop music, IV functions as the dominant. Compare the bridge in IV with sonata-allegro's second movement in V, e.g. Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley Give your ears, hear the sayings, Give your heart to understand them; It profits to put them in your heart. Amenemope (c. Eleventh century B.C.), _The Instruction of Amenemope_, ch.1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:52:43 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Convinced In a lot of rock/pop music, IV functions as the dominant. Compare the bridge in IV with sonata-allegro's second movement in V, e.g. ***** I mean second *theme*, not movement. Sorry! Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley Give your ears, hear the sayings, Give your heart to understand them; It profits to put them in your heart. Amenemope (c. Eleventh century B.C.), _The Instruction of Amenemope_, ch.1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:04:29 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Scott Miller, meet Scott Miller At 01:11 PM 08/02/2001 -0400, Michael Bowen wrote: >A fine chap named Scott Miller has been expounding on the virtues of his >Tennessee namesake on the Richard Thompson list. He just mentioned that he >hasn't ever heard anything by Our Scott, so I volunteered to burn a >compilation CD for him. I have pretty much the entire GT/LF catalog on CD >(missing T2E2C). Are there any tracks that you all would feel to be >absolutely essential? I did this tape for Dan Stillwell after IBC, so it doesn't have anything from DFD or AN. But I still like it, and there's room to expand if I go the two-CDR route in the future. One side GT, the other LF: SIDE A Kenneth, What's the Frequency? Not Because You Can Here It Is Tomorrow Where You Going Northern? Curse of the Frontierland Shark Pretty We Love You Carol and Alison Come Home With Me Bad Year at UCLA I've Tried Subtlety Amelia, Have You Lost The Waist and the Knees One More for St. Michael Throwing the Election SIDE B Sodium Laureth Sulfate My Superior Spot the Setup Some Grand Vision of Motives and Irony Don't Respond, She Can Tell Rise of the Chokehold Princess Still Its Own Reward The Second Grade Applauds Sword Swallower Don't Thank Me All At Once Where They Go Back To School But Get Depressed Jimmy Still Comes Around Just Gone Ballet Hetero in favor of all these Scott Millers, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 13:26:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Sue Trowbridge Subject: [loud-fans] Dave Marsh: gone off the deep end? http://www.starpolish.com/news/article.asp?ID=144 This may be a satire, but I don't think so. "We will all rot in the pits of hell five minutes for every second we've wasted watching MTV, and there are no seconds that are not wasted watching MTV after the first two minutes. I believe this with all my heart and what's left of my mind." He also claims "it is a crime against both journalism and humanity to produce Entertainment Weekly and People." Hey, I subscribe to EW and happen to think it's a pretty cool magazine! BTW, considering that New Order's first album came out in 1981, it's not surprising that they have fans in their 40s and 50s. And I'm sure Moby's commercials for Nordstrom and American Express helped him to snag fans in the upper income/age bracket as well. - -- Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:45:06 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Dave Marsh: gone off the deep end? In a message dated 8/2/01 4:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, loudfan@yahoo.com writes: > http://www.starpolish.com/news/article.asp?ID=144 > > This may be a satire, but I don't think so. > > "We will all rot in the pits of hell five minutes for > every second we've wasted watching MTV, and there are > no seconds that are not wasted watching MTV after the > first two minutes. I believe this with all my heart > and what's left of my mind." He also claims "it is a > crime against both journalism and humanity to produce > Entertainment Weekly and People." Hey, I subscribe to > EW and happen to think it's a pretty cool magazine! > > I agree, this is no parody. What was he smoking when he wrote this. I like EW too, Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:51:13 -0400 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Convinced Even Sonic Youth, whose avant-noize aspirations made them at one point my pick for the act most likely to burst the blues bubble once and for all, have tunes like "Silver Rocket", which is basically Eand G, or some transposition thereof, a move at least as old as Robert Johnson. >>>>>>>>>>>>>. I'm as big a fan of Sonic Youth as the next guy, but their songwriting innovation is vastly overstated. Most of their songs can be fundamentally reproduced on an acoustic guitar in standard tuning, and next time everyone comes over to visit I'll be glad to do a demonstration. You won't get the little just-tuning effects and so on, but you can play a reasonable facsimile of the song. Most of their tunes are anchored by a pretty simple and straightforward bass line (for obvious reasons) and skirt along the edge of pop...just dressed up with lots of odd sound effects. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:42:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Convinced On Thu, 2 Aug 2001 Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com wrote: > Jeff sez: [some ridiculous nonsense about rock getting over the blues] As usual, I was being intentionally provocative (oh, the calculated shtick of it all - next, I will post wearing only leather bondage gear). Here's more: > 1> The arrangement. Guitar, bass, drums, singer, and maybe some kind of > keyboard. Rock was not the first music played with this sort of ensemble. Yeah, okay... but note that a lot of the most interesting music of the last ten-fifteen years ditches guitar, bass guitar, acoustic drums, and singer. > 2> I-IV-V. This will never go away as long as the move "V-I" is > understood as a resolution. Even in cases where someone tries to devise > alternate forms (such as when that dead guy from that Nirvana band wrote > 2/3 of an enormously influential multiplatinum album using I-III), their > imitators nearly invariably replicate textures and dynamics, but resort > to these same damn chord changes. That is to say, imitators fall back upon an outmoded musical form (thus spake the rock Stakhanovite) when they either have no ideas of their own or are incompetent to hear any chord sequence other than I-IV-V - witness all the folks who insist that "More Than a Feeling" has the same chord sequence as "Smells Like Teen Spirit." (Note: I'm referring to those who call themselves musicians here - there's no earthly reason non-musicians who are music fans need to concern themselves with this stuff.) Also: I suppose the 1812 Overture is the blues now? That is, I-IV-V and variants predate the blues (in fact, are absent in really early blues and were added from European-American influence - ya had to put *some* kinda harmonic progression in there...), as Dan Schmidt's post points out. > 3> Keying up to the IV for the bridge. Buddy Holly brought this simple and > effective change-on-the-thrird-part variation to pop, and it has not left. Is Buddy Holly a blues guy bringing a blues device to pop/rock, or is he a rock guy, with therefore a blues pedigree, bringing a rock device to pop (here differentiated from rock)? I guess what I'm saying is, what's the line back to the blues here? (I'd also have to wonder if pre-rock songwriters didn't use this device as well...off the top of my head, I can't think of any, but it's still humid around here, and my head can't be bothered right now w/a mental journey throuh the Cole Porter catalogue, etc.) > 4> The pentatonic scale. This remains the staple playground of the rock guitar > solo. When punk bands use guitar solos, they (the bands, not the solos) seem > actually more inclined to rely on this than many other rock subgenres. Bending > the V note (which is the third note in the pentatonic scale), generally up a > half step or thereabouts, resulting in a nice dissonant tritone from tonic, is > indisputably a blues move. And millions of people who imagine themselves as > "rocking" are doing this right now. Ah yes - but you say they *imagine* themselves rocking (in quotes, even). Me, I'm imagining myself clad in armor, fighting off a firebreathing two-headed dragon, and saving a maiden suspiciously reminiscent of Halle Berry...but I'm not actually doing it. Sorry - GenCon's in town this weekend, and even if I don't go, I can feel it in the air tonight (cue gated snare) Seriously, I'll concede this point...but in the same way as blues progressions can be the default for those who can't do otherwise, the pentatonic scale (and its finger-lickin' convenience on the fretboard) is the same for soloists. (Pet guitar solo peeve: where the guitarist keeps playing the same pentatonic scale for the solo even when the progression is going elsewhere, resulting in the solo running roughshod over passing tones, false relations, and split infinitives.) > 5> The backbeat. The snare falling on the three is the single most common > rhythmic move in all of rock, and rock did originate this on its own. I think you meant "didn't," right? As in, the blues does this a lot. Point conceded if so. > 6> Adding sixths, especially on the backbeat. This is still used all over the > pop and rock map. Rob Poor's bassline even does a variation of this in > "Aerodeliria". It's most commonly associated with Chuck Berry (who as I see it > represents the transition from blues to rock), but Jimmy Reed, who slightly > predates Berry, and is undoubtedly blues, not rock, did this all the time. And > I'm sure it predates him, too. I'll have to relisten to that one, since in memory I can't really hear it - - but usually when that pattern gets played, it sez "I am now hearkening back to the blues roots of early rock, such as Chuck Berry" or, if slightly crunchier, "I am channeling the ghost of Keith Richards...which is peculiar, since he's not dead yet." Qualified agreement here... > 6> The seventh chord, essential to blues, is still probably the most common > harmonic extension in guitar-based rock as played in standard tuning. Yer talkin' bout the flatted seventh in a major-scale context, no? - or sort of a (consults the I Ching - realizes what he wants is a list of modal scales instead) whatever that mode is that starts on the fifth degree of the scale (and hence flattens the seventh - not to be confused with a 7-10 split, even though if you squint, that pin setup looks eerily like a metal fan giving Ozzy the ol' devil-horn fingers)? Okay, alright already... > So the blues in rock hasn't gone away, and isn't going any time soon. And one > could surely make a case for many of these attributes not being originated in > blues, instead coming from earlier styles and forms, but that does not override > the fact that blues is where rock got them from. Damn. I was so hoping for Blind Jimmy Coffinnails to say "this here's a number by a fella named Russian Pete called '1812 Blues.' [sings] 'Woke up this mornin', someone firin' cannons on my lawn...'" I think we're left with a fragmentary harmonic and melodic set of preferences that indeed come from the blues, but the way they get used in a lot of new music is so far removed from those origins, it's doubtful to call them "origins" at all. I'm just thinking of the zillion Amerindie bands (outside of the Jon Spencer axis und suchlike) who bear almost no trace of the blues in their material, and any number of British groups about whom you can say the same. (Part of an ongoing anti-blues tirade, inspired by our local college radio station's attempt - successful though it's been, and I guess I'm grateful for that - to build an audience by programming nothing but the blues during evening drive-time every weekday. This wouldn't be so bad, except that four out of five days feature DJs whose ideas of "blues" consist solely of lame-ass "Chicago-style" tired variations that just reek of all those suburbanites slurping cachet as "blues fans." Yeah, that's my problem - and I certainly know it doesn't diminish the achievements of Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, Muddy Waters, etc. etc., whose music I can still enjoy.) - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey, whip to a foolish consistency J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::sex, drugs, revolt, Eskimos, atheism:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:51:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] Giveaway IV: The Final Injection Okay, I'll attempt to froth up the last little bit of interest here before succumbing to others' slumbering apathy. Anyway, we again have a new entry. Wearing a slim little cardboard promo sleeve from the house of Jetset, young Erik Sanko sashays down the aisle with his solo debut _Past Imperfect, Present Tense_. Sanko previously wowed us with his bass work in Skeleton Key and the Lounge Lizards, but this provocative little number is far more stripped-down and sassy, reminiscent, perhaps, of the enticing yet demure confections of Crooked Fingers (Eric Bachmann, ex-Archers of Loaf). This number won't be on sale until September - but you - you! - can have it now, right when you want it, for a very, very affordable price. Here's the rest (in peace): **** Volcanic FLUFFER 34 Satellite RADAR 45 Dip THE ACID LOUNGE 6X KUNG-POW! Adams Eve s/t Afrosheens, the PERSIAN EXPRESSWAY American Heritage THROUGH THE AGE OF QUARREL AND INTO THE ERA OF PUTTING UP WITH IT Astoveboat NEW BEDFORD Aswad TOO WICKED Atlas, Natacha GEDIDA Autobody s/t Bensen, Nick PSYCHEDELIC JUGGERNAUT Big Bad Bollocks NIGHT ON THE TILES Black Water, the WHORES Blastic Pubble GRAVITY, REALITY AND RELATED COMPOUNDS Bo Bud Greene LAS OLAS Brahms, Spohr, Meyerbeer BBC Music CD vol. 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Phillips) v/a Huh mag comp CD4 v/a Huh mag comp CD5 v/a Huh mag comp CD6 v/a Huh mag comp CD7 v/a Huh mag comp CD8 v/a Huh mag comp CD9 v/a Huh mag comp Summer Bootleg v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 1 v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 10 v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 2 v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 3 v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 4 v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 5 v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 6 v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 7 (2cd) v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 8 v/a Musician Magazine comp vol. 9 v/a REVELATIONS BOOK II Volumen Cero ANDROMEDA Weiss, Pete & the Rock Band s/t Yours Truly DOMESTICATED - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Any noise that is unrelenting eventually becomes music:: __Paula Carino__ ------------------------------ Date: 02 Aug 2001 19:16:52 -0400 From: Dan Schmidt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Convinced Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey writes: | > 3> Keying up to the IV for the bridge. Buddy Holly brought this | > simple and effective change-on-the-thrird-part variation to pop, | > and it has not left. | | Is Buddy Holly a blues guy bringing a blues device to pop/rock, or is he a | rock guy, with therefore a blues pedigree, bringing a rock device to pop | (here differentiated from rock)? I guess what I'm saying is, what's the | line back to the blues here? (I'd also have to wonder if pre-rock | songwriters didn't use this device as well...off the top of my head, I | can't think of any, but it's still humid around here, and my head can't be | bothered right now w/a mental journey throuh the Cole Porter catalogue, | etc.) Good point. The first standard that pops into my head is the Gershwins' "Someone to Watch Over Me", which goes to IV in the bridge ('Although he may not be the man some / Girls think of as handsome'). That's just one data point, but it certainly seems like a standard (ha ha) thing to do in that era of songwriting. | > 5> The backbeat. The snare falling on the three is the single | > most common rhythmic move in all of rock, and rock did originate | > this on its own. | | I think you meant "didn't," right? As in, the blues does this a lot. Point | conceded if so. But you guys mean 2 and 4, right? | > 6> The seventh chord, essential to blues, is still probably the | > most common harmonic extension in guitar-based rock as played in | > standard tuning. | | Yer talkin' bout the flatted seventh in a major-scale context, no? - or | sort of a (consults the I Ching - realizes what he wants is a list of | modal scales instead) whatever that mode is that starts on the fifth | degree of the scale (and hence flattens the seventh - not to be confused | with a 7-10 split, even though if you squint, that pin setup looks eerily | like a metal fan giving Ozzy the ol' devil-horn fingers)? Okay, alright | already... Mixolydian. I guess it's arguable whether a lot of this music is in major with a flat 7th, or mixolydian. I'd be inclined to argue the latter, since, as I mentioned (or tried to) in my last mail, V is a lot less interesting in rock/blues/pop than in classical music (as Matthew said, harmonies more often go to IV and back), including the leading tone (non-flatted 7th) that's the third of a V chord. Er, so my point is, not having a leading tone is a fundamental property of a lot of this music, so I'm inclined away from a perspective that says it's in there but then gets covered up. - -- http://www.dfan.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:03:16 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: [loud-fans] way to give On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey offered And I don't want these, but someone should: > Me Phi Me ONE In addition to the "Motor Boys Motor" deal, some of you dabbling in hip hop might be interested to know that -- Matrix, pls. correct me on the terminology but -- Me Phi Me was part of the late 80's graduating class of "new positivity" or whatever it was called that inlcuded the likes of De La Soul and A Tribe Called Quest. That means a minimum of gangster posturing and sexism, more melody and more philosophically oriented lyrics. I seem to remember that "ONE" had one awesome song on it. Can't recall what it was. > Paul K and the Prayers SARATOGA Not only is this a really good ablum, it's packaged with a really storming live disc. Take a flyer. It's tough reading about Paul K because the list of people he's typically compared with (Dylan, Reed, Townes) is sort of absurd -- might as well throw Neil Young in the mix -- what he is is a strong songwriter whose worked with some excellent supporting musicians. His stuff is lyrically sophisticated, musically very rooted in the big rock tradition. His vocals shouldn't be offputting to very many Scott fans. > Sixth Great Lake UP THE COUNTRY E6, right? does it totally suck? I'm surprised someone didn't claim it already. = i do what i am told. i am not opinionated. i accept without | dmw@ = questioning. i do not make a fuss. i am a good consumer. |radix.net = pathetic-caverns.com * fecklessbeast.com * shoddyworkmanship.net ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #181 *******************************