From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #134 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, June 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 134 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] state v. church ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] state v. church [Michael Bowen ] Re: [loud-fans] state v. church [JRT456@aol.com] RE: [loud-fans] extraordinarily off topic [bedwellm@WellsFargo.COM] Re: [loud-fans] Movies, good and bad [Dan Sallitt ] Re: [loud-fans] state v. church [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] The coo-coo, she's a pretty bird ["Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] state v. church >I'd read that the American editions of the Harry Potter books were dumbed >down - apparently, the title of one of them is _Harry Potter and the >Philosopher's Stone_ in England, but the American publisher figured we'd >be too dense to know what that was, and so changed it to "Sorcerer's >Stone." I dont' know if this is true - remember, I'm too lazy to do >research. I can't speak to that, but I'd argue that the Harry Potter books are pretty anti-intellectual anyway. Not only is the one studious character pretty much treated like a loser, Harry's popularity, just like American high school students' ability to get into the college of their choice, is based upon his athletic prowess. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:28:02 -0400 From: Michael Bowen Subject: Re: [loud-fans] state v. church At 10:36 AM 6/19/2001 -0400, Dana L Paoli wrote: >All of us secular humanists on the list will be thrilled to learn that >someone has finally seen the light about those despicable Narnia >stories... > >http://slate.msn.com/culturebox/entries/01-06-18_110460.asp While I wasn't able to access the NY Times article referred to in this piece, it does seem that HarperCollins isn't going to change the original books; they're just going to add more to the "franchise": see http://writenews.com/2001/032101_harpercollins_cslewis.htm . Disgusting, perhaps, but not nearly as disgusting as changing the originals. The Slate writer is a mediocre hack; not only did she make it unclear just what HarperCollins' plans were, but she claims to find "a Christian cast" to "The Hobbit", which is bullshit. She also praises the Narnia books for their "light touch"* regarding their Christian proselytizing, which is sort of like praising someone for their light touch when they hit me over the head with a 2x4, rather than a sledgehammer. MB * This "light touch" reminded me of one of my all time favorite puns. Back when one of the networks showed an animated version of "TLTW&TW", I was watching it in my college dorm. I remember this version as being particularly witless; even worse than the various animated Tolkien stuff that had been released. Anyway, as the music swelled and Aslan resurrected from the stone table to go kick some righteous ass, my roommate Jim muttered, "Here comes the Calvary!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:53:25 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] state v. church In a message dated 6/20/01 6:34:21 AM, mbowen@frontiernet.net writes: << The Slate writer is a mediocre hack; not only did she make it unclear just what HarperCollins' plans were, but she claims to find "a Christian cast" to "The Hobbit", which is bullshit. She also praises the Narnia books for their "light touch"* regarding their Christian proselytizing, which is sort of like praising someone for their light touch when they hit me over the head with a 2x4, rather than a sledgehammer. >> That's too kind to the Slate writer. It was interesting to watch her trying to put a very understanding light on the notion of removing Christianity from Lewis' work. Whether or not this is HarperCollin's real intent, she termed it a "bittersweet" development. The praise of a "light touch" reads more like rationalization for how it's really okay to edit out an author's vision. That is, the vision of certain authors. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:49:44 -0700 From: bedwellm@WellsFargo.COM Subject: RE: [loud-fans] extraordinarily off topic You might want to check out Stanford (you are in the Bay Area, right?). I believe there is a Sleep center there. Good luck. Micah - -----Original Message----- From: Dana L Paoli [mailto:dana-boy@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 8:29 PM To: loud-fans@smoe.org Subject: Re: [loud-fans] extraordinarily off topic I'll post this on-list, on the off chance that it might be helpful. Down the hall from my office at the hospital where I work is the sleep center, and as I pass by I often read their little poster presentations. Anyway, apparently a lot of people with problems like what you describe are waking up because of breathing problems. It's worth checking into that, if you haven't already. Usually people aren't aware of the problem, except for the fact that they can't get a good night's sleep. If that is your problem, it's fairly easy to treat (or so the poster says). Failing that, you might call a local hospital and see if they have a sleep research center. If you strike out that way, I'd be happy to give you the number for ours. You live on the wrong side of the country, but they might be able to offer a referral. Finally, if you have a problem and your HMO docter is dismissing it, try to find another docter. I know that that sounds obvious (and isn't always easy) but it's amazing how many people (including myself at times) will stick with a bad docter out of inertia. - --dana On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:18:35 -0700 bbradley@namesecure.com writes: >preface: >not a sympathy quest. responses off-list, unless it seems to make >sense to >do otherwise. > >ok, here goes - > >i'm in the midst of what is turning out to be a rather large research >project on sleep disorders. this is entirely self-centered. i've >spent 12 >weeks and a few days waking up 2-5 times a night with the exception of >7 >nights of undisturbed sleep. > >i've had it. i'm at my wit's end, and becoming unable to deal with >day-to-day issues without losing it. i have no problem falling >asleep; it's >staying asleep that i can't do. my doctor gave my Ambien (i hate >taking >pretty much anything, especially stuff like that) and i took 1/2 of >one the >other night (i'm a little person with no drug tolerance) and woke up >the >next morning feeling like i'd been hit by a truck. i was more tired >than i >am when i wake up every hour all night. > >i've hit tons of web resources, my doctor (who is usually incredibly >good) >is being dismissive, and i have an HMO, so i can't just up and go to >a >specialist without getting scalped. i'm a very, very healthy 28, in >great >shape physically and mentally (yeah, right - i can dream), and drink >only >occasionally. my vice is smoking - which i keep to a max of about >4-6 >cigarettes a day. > >i'm bothering the list with this because you guys (and gals) are a >crew of >intelligent adults who just might have some knowledge about this, and >because i'm absolutely desperate for some sort of answer. > >if anyone has done any reading they found useful, or can offer any >pearls of >wisdom, please let me know. > >thank you thank you thank you.... > > >-- >brianna bradley >web designer, web ops >http://namesecure.com >IT ALL STARTS WITH A WEB ADDRESS >tel: 925.609.1101 x206 >fax: 925.609.1112 > >"The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the >population is >growing." >Cole's Axiom >http://startrekonice.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:10:50 -0400 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Movies, good and bad > >I never liked Godard, but a few months ago I resaw A > >BOUT DE SOUFFLE and was surprised to find myself liking it.... > > Although I'd loved the movie when I was in my late teens, when I > saw it recently it looked incredibly shallow and misogynistic. > Seberg's betrayal of Belmondo in particular bugged me: the femme > fatale is a dubious and sexist concept in itself, but at least in most > movies the filmmakers have the decency to grant such a character > a halfway decent motive. Godard seemed to be implying that hey, > she's a woman, what else would you expect of her? Godard always seems to focus on the otherness of women, and enjoys depicting female characters as amoral. ("Tu es infame." "No - je suis une femme!") To give him his due, though, he continues to like Seberg during and after the betrayal, and gives her that very sympathetic last shot. Actually, I recall Godard letting Seberg justify herself at length, in that long tracking shot around the apartment where she and Belmondo are staying. The self-justification doesn't make a lot of psychological sense, but then part of the point of the film is that the characters are just play-acting a gangster story without much genre conviction. The film has a lot more to say about how a man and woman might fall together in a very specific time and social milieu than it does about killing and femmes fatales. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:29:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] state v. church On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 JRT456@aol.com wrote: > That's too kind to the Slate writer. It was interesting to watch her trying > to put a very understanding light on the notion of removing Christianity from > Lewis' work. Whether or not this is HarperCollin's real intent, she termed it > a "bittersweet" development. The praise of a "light touch" reads more like > rationalization for how it's really okay to edit out an author's vision. That > is, the vision of certain authors. First, the word used was "supplement": that is, new Narnia stories will be secularized, not the existing ones. (I don't think this is a good idea, to trivialize a writer's ideas, but as far as I can tell from reading this article, no one's going back and bowdlerizing the original Narnia stories.) Second, given the author's odd and somewhat creepy reference to the "unchristian...Harry Potter," and given that her bio notes that she's the "books producer" (?) at beliefnet.com, I don't think she's trying to be "understanding" about "removing Christianity from Lewis' work," since the context implies she herself is Christian. The whole world isn't out to get Christians. Beliefnet.com seems kind of cheesy - a sort of pop-psychological/ marketeer's approach to "spirituality" - but it doesn't seem a likely haven for demonic legions bent on sweeping the world clean of Christianity. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. ::That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! __Thomas Pynchon, VINELAND__ np: Eleventh Dream Day _El Moodio_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:43:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jer Fairall Subject: [loud-fans] Amanda Kravat [ns] For the two or three other Marry Me Jane fans out there: Amanda Kravat's long promised solo record, WRONG ALL DAY, is finally out and can be ordered via www.amandakravat.com or www.amazon.com Jer np: duh! ===== Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:02:14 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The coo-coo, she's a pretty bird >I don't know of any connection between those >two songs, but there is an English ballad that begins: > >The cuckoo is a pretty bird, she sings as she flies >She bringeth glad tidings, she telleth no lies Yes, this is similar, at least, to Ashley's version, though I wish I had the latter to hand for comparison. >I'd be very surprised if it wasn't related. You can find it on :Basket of >Light:* by the Pentangle. I'll like to mention the soon-to-open film SONGCATCHER, about a female Doctor of Musicology, circa early twentieth century, who ventures into an Appalachian (I think...) region and finds an exciting corroboration between English folk songs and their American mountain counterparts. I winced at some of the plot developments, and I have no idea if the central academic concept resembles reality , but I did enjoy the acting and the music throughout. Players include Janet McTeer (VELVET GOLDMINE, THE KING IS ALIVE), Jane Adams (HAPPINESS, LIGHT SLEEPER), Adian Quinn (THE HANDMAID'S TALE, AT PLAY IN THE FIELDS OF THE LORD), E. Katherine Kerr (CHILDREN OF A LESSER GOD, THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE), and the country singer Iris DeMent. Almost everyone sings, and the overall approach resembles O BROTHER WHERE ART THOU?, though without that film's mythic mixings. See it if you can. Fain would lie down? Andy "Dear respectful one, With due respect and humility I write you this letter which I believe you would be of great assistance to me and my children. I am MRS JENETH .M. KOROMAH, the wife of the late Dr DAVID E. KOROMAH JR. of the blessed memory. Prior to my husband assassination by the rebel forces loyal to CORPORAL FODAY SANKOH of the Revolutionary United Front (RUF), He was the Director General National Gold and Diamond Mining Corporation of Sierra-Leone. Few days before my husband was assassinated, he instructed me and my children ( DIDOW and HENRY ) to move out of Sierra-Leone and also to go in his underground strong room where the documents of money he has deposited in a security company in Abidjan Ctte d'Ivoire in one trunk Box as family valuables and treasures with the name of my first son DIDOW as the beneficiary. The amount is US$15.500 (Fifteen million five hundred thousand United States Dollars. We managed to escape to Abidjan the Republic of Ctte d'Ivoire through the help of my husband's friend who is a trawler. As our travelling document was seized. I am now looking for a trustworthy and God fearing person who will handle this money for rapid profit for the future of my two fatherless children. For your information , the security company did not know the real content of the box and we do not wish them to know until the money is transferred to your account. As it was deposited as family valuables and treasures. Meanwhile, I want to leave Ctte d'Ivoire entirely for investment of this money in your country and mostly for the future of my children. I want you to please assist us to claim the box from the security company and also deposit the money in a local account there in your name and order the bank to transfer the money to your account in your country. As our foreign partner. We have it in mind to reward you with a certain percentage for your assistance. As soon as we hear from you.Do not hesitate to call me on this line Tel : 00225-03 06 61 42 immediately you receive this letter to enable us proceed in Ernest toward retrieving the box and transferring of the money into your account. Finally, Please ensure that no one else knows about this money as it is only myself my son, yourself and the Rev. Pastor of the church where we worship knows about this money. May God bless you as you assist me. Yours sincerely. MRS JENETH .M. KOROMAH" - --received in my inbox this morning ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:26:50 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Movies, good and bad >Actually, I recall Godard letting Seberg justify herself at length, in >that long tracking shot around the apartment where she and Belmondo are >staying. The self-justification doesn't make a lot of psychological >sense, but then part of the point of the film is that the characters are >just play-acting a gangster story without much genre conviction. The >film has a lot more to say about how a man and woman might fall together >in a very specific time and social milieu than it does about killing and >femmes fatales. Mark Rappaport's FROM THE JOURNALS OF JEAN SEBERG, featuring Mary Beth Hurt as Jean Seberg, attempts a fascinating psychocelluloid interpretation of Seberg's screen persona. Rappaport's ROCK HUDSON'S HOME MOVIES is similar, though more simplistic. Still waiting for a band called Maid Of Orleans, Andy "Very soon after starting to take your Manifestation Essence, I won a brand new truck. I now take it everyday"-David Walker, Monte Vista, CO "My husky mix used to cry out in his sleep and whimper nightly. I started adding just a few drops of Inner Peace and after a few weeks he was sleeping peacefully. It even calmed down my beagle beast" - - Lillian Pettinato, R.N., Registered Acupuncturist Flower essences are being successfully used around the world to assist with healing in all areas of life: physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. They are one of the ONLY technologies available that address all four simultaneously. Dancing Dolphin Essences aren't just Flower Essences. 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[--from some spam Jeffrey Norman sent me yesterday] (courtesy Jeffrey Norman) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:56:37 -0700 From: bbradley@namesecure.com Subject: [loud-fans] the sleep gods have spoken! and damn! did they have a lot to say! most of the emails require/deserve a response, and since i'm lazy, i'm just gonna do it this way. since a lot of you had the same questions and/or comments, i'm just gonna quote with no names. you know who you are. GENERAL i've been keeping a sleep log for the last 3 or 4 weeks. the only even nearly consistant factor is whether or not i have to get up early the next day. if i DON'T, i'll sleep through the night about 70% of the time. i'm tracking what i eat and when, what and when and if i have any alcohol, how much i smoke each day, when i wake up and for how long and the reason, if there is one. the only consistancy about waking up is that it tends to be within 10 minutes of a multiple of an hour and a half. in other words, i will sleep 1.5 hours, 3 hours, or 4.5 hours. i rarely wake up after, say, 4 hours. the human sleep cycle (lightest to deepest and back to lightest again) is roughly 1.5 hours. BLOODWORK, ETC. bloodwork's been done. nothing found. i insisted on it because diabetes runs in my family. luckily that is not the problem. they also tested for thyroid stuff - also nothing. funny side note: i asked them to tell me my bloodtype while they were at it. my doctor called and said "well, this is weird. all they told me is that you're positive. not A or B or anything like that, just positive," so who knows how valid the test results were... :) GET OUT OF BED AFTER 15 MINUTES OF BEING AWAKE i get up almost every time. i'm always thirsty when i wake up, so i usually go hit the gatorade and sometimes snack a bit. seems to help. this is why the concern was initially diabetes or thyroid stuff - i'm occassionally very hot and/or shaky when i wake up (even in a 70 degree room), and if i have some juice, i'm fine within minutes. PSYCH OR NEURO REFERRAL that's next. i figure it can't hurt. although i have succumbed to the feeling that i should be intelligent enough to understand my own brain, i'm willing to try anything. TENSION TAMER, ST. JOHN'S WORT tension tamer contains st. john's wort, which a number of other people mentioned, as well. a note of caution: st. john's wort is addictive, at least to some people. i have a friend who had to wean herself off of it over a period of about 6 months. she was a disaster the entire time. she had some very serious depression, which she treated with the st. john's wort, and when she came off of it, she became nearly suicidal. it also, as someone else said, can change sleep patterns very effectively, but whether it heps or hurts is a total crap-shoot. i like it occassionally, too, and it's a great calming herb, but be careful of dependence. HERBAL REMEMDIES well, to FALL asleep, try cardamom in warm milk. works like a dream! SONATA i've heard good things about that - i'll ask. EXCEDRIN PM this i'll definately try. OTC - can't be too bad. WWW.RXLIST.COM yes, great resource, and everyone should know about it. webmd.com as well. APNEA, SNORING i'm lucky enough to have a boyfriend that would definately tell me if i snored :). i DO talk in my sleep - frequently and, apparently, loudly and perfectly clearly. no muttering for me. i'm wondering if this is indicative of only acheiving a very light sleep. SLEEP RESEARCH CENTER honestly, this sounds totally cool, and if nothing else i would be fascinated to see how that all works. maybe i've got an excuse! as long as it's not like the one in that horrible movie - dream something - where the guy (or gal) would go into people's dreams and terrorize them.... ALL I WANT IS A GOOD NIGHT'S SLEEP Sonia Ancoli-Israel (Mosby-Year Book, Inc., 1996, 142 pages, paperback, $9.95) will be looking for this one for sure. sounds very good. FROM AN ARTICLE ** Have a bedtime ritual for the last 30 minutes before you go to bed. Having a routine and calm breathing will help make you sleepy. Also, read a few pages of inspirational material just before turning out the light. does Naked Lunch count? you guys are the greatest! i now have a list of things to try, to watch for, and boy, do i know i'm not alone! man! do any of you ever sleep? oh wait - i already knew that answer. thanks again! brianna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:40:54 EDT From: Cardinal007@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] state v. church / Potter In a message dated 6/20/01 12:37:51 PM, jenor@csd.uwm.edu writes: >The whole world isn't out to >get Christians. Yes, but some of us do our part ..... Regarding the dumbing down of Harry Potter books, I can only say that I've read both; a writer friend living in England sent the first two [English editions] to me as valued adult reading, and I bought the other two through amazon.uk.com. My children have received all four American editions from relatives. Other than the title of the first, almost all of the changes were minor, but may be considered dumbing down. Standard differences in spelling ( i.e. "flavour" v. "flavor") were throughout, but the only other things were differences in vocabulary. "The bakery opposite" was rendered "the bakery across the street" in the American version. I'm sure that "we queued" would be "we stood in line" had that idea been in any book. Seemed more like a translation from English to American English. Finally, as for "anti-intellectualism" and Harry Potter's physical exploits in a sport -- the skills of the small, slight unprepossessing Potter are important in the books, but his athletic prowess is not the solution. The Head Wizard is, as his description reveals, wise, and his gentle nudging to thinking and reasoning something through rather than physically acting is a theme I've read in them. He doesn't read books like another character, but his character is clearly fictional. Any 14-yr.-old in a coed school not thinking about fucking all the time seems like fiction. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:17:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] Satanism! Esperanto! Shatner! Who could resist? (especially not Andy Hamlin!) http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3722/video3722.html - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::flag on the moon...how'd it get there?:: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:35:42 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satanism! Esperanto! Shatner! Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey on 2001/06/20 Wed PM 03:17:05 MDT wrote: > Who could resist? (especially not Andy Hamlin!) > > http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3722/video3722.html I actually bought this (INCUBUS) on DVD. Haven't watched it yet though, aside from sampling a few scenes. I showed a scene to a few of my friends without telling them what it was and they were like "Why is William Shatner speaking Spanish?" And no, Andy, you can't borrow it. Please show me to the center of town, Later. --Rog - -- When toads are not enough: http://www.reignoffrogs.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 2001 18:15:51 -0400 From: Dan Schmidt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] are we nearly there yet? (ns) Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey writes: | Back to Radiohead's "Pyramid Song": What I first heard was a bar of 5, a | bar of 3, another bar of 5, two bars of 3, a bar of 5, a bar of 3, and | then a bar of 5. After that, I think, it starts repeating. (Hey, I was | doing this in real time on first listen, so if I'm wrong please don't | shoot.) Now add up those numbers...that's right, 32 beats...or 8 bars of | 4. I'd say the accents are just crossing over the bar lines - certainly | made the string chart easier for the players to read, I'm sure. I'm finally getting back to this, as I just picked up AMNESIAC (which I like a lot, even more than KID A). It took me a couple listens to figure out what's going on, but once you do, it's actually quite (almost disappointingly) straightforward. It's just a slow half-shuffle 4/4 (around 60 bpm) subdivided into 3+3+4+3+3 (=16) groups of 16th notes. The half-shuffle means that every other 16th note is swung (delayed); it's the standard hip-hop beat. If it were straight you'd just hear (& is an 8th note, . is a 16th): x x x x x x x x x x 1.&.2.&.3.&.4.&.1.&.2.&.3.&.4.&. But with the shuffle we get: x x x x x x x x x x 1 .& .2 .& .3 .& .4 .& .1 .& .2 .& .3 .& .4 .& . The drums are all over the place, but he does do fills into the downbeat. He's also keeping a fairly steady eighth note pulse on a cymbal. The downside is that the song sounds much less weird now, so think twice before you go ahead with the attempt to hear it this way. - -- http://www.dfan.org ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 2001 18:28:32 -0400 From: Dan Schmidt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] are we nearly there yet? (ns) Dan Schmidt writes: | [re Radiohead's "Pyramid Song"] | | It took me a couple listens to figure out what's going on, but once | you do, it's actually quite (almost disappointingly) straightforward. | It's just a slow half-shuffle 4/4 (around 60 bpm) subdivided into | 3+3+4+3+3 (=16) groups of 16th notes. I also meant to mention that this is similar to the common Bulgarian meter of 2+2+3+2+2 (=11!) 16th notes. If that sounds like fun, run out right now and buy Ivo Papasov's BALKANOLOGY. It will completely destroy your brain, not to mention your feet. Trying to dance to that stuff (and you've never heard anything so perfectly and impossibly danceable at the same time) can mess you up good. I'm sure Bulgarians can do it without thinking; I envy them. - -- http://www.dfan.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:52:52 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] aube vs reed vs ? rou n d two (+ awful attemptatOTing) >I'm looking for the fine logical distinctions that allow someone to believe >there's state imprimatur with religious access, but no state imprimatur >[regarding sexuality] with condom distribution. I know the distinctions are >there, but I seem to get "the first is bad, the second is good" stuff most of >the time. You're close: the first is unconstitutional, the second is not. JS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:59:55 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] church v state (no, there's no Scott here either...) There's also the issue of how >much gay representation would have to be required within the Boy Scouts for >homosexuals to feel like a proper part of the Scouts That's a gross misrepresentation of what the gays were looking for in the Supreme Court Boy Scout case. They're not looking for quotas, they're just asking to be allowed in. But, you know that, but why let the facts get in the way of some gratuitous button-pushing... - --which returns us to the >government forcing belief systems onto other folks. With so many belief >systems having infiltrated public schools (and HUD, and other federal >institutions), it's certainly arguable for the Supreme Court to declare that >religions deserve equal representation where other philosophies are promoted. But there isn't anything in the Constitution which says that the government may not promote certain philosophies. Of course it may! It just can't promote any religions. Why are you and Clarence having so much trouble with this? JS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:57:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Charity Stafford Subject: Re: [loud-fans] are we nearly there yet? (ns) Dan Schmidt writes: > I also meant to mention that this is similar to the common > Bulgarian meter of 2+2+3+2+2 (=11!) 16th notes. If that sounds like > fun, run out right now and buy Ivo Papasov's BALKANOLOGY. It will > completely destroy your brain, not to mention your feet. Trying to > dance to that stuff (and you've never heard anything so perfectly and > impossibly danceable at the same time) can mess you up good. I'm sure > Bulgarians can do it without thinking; I envy them. Not only can Bulgarians, so can plenty of Americans without a trace of Balkan blood in their veins. It may help us that we don't think of the rhythm as 2+2+3+2+3 so much as "quick, quick, slooow, quick, quick," and while it's tricky at first it's really not that hard to get the hang of it. For one thing, the rhythms are odd, but they're generally very strong - once you get the pattern it's fairly easy to keep hold of. All I can say is that *I* learned bunches of Balkan dances to funny meters many years ago, with no prior dance experience and not even any prior exposure to said funny meters. I highly recommend Sunday night folk dancing at MIT (even though I haven't gone myself in 15 years or so...) Charity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:16:14 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satanism! Esperanto! Gnosis! >And no, Andy, you can't borrow it. Awww...please, please PLEEEEEEASE!!! (exit stage right under James Brown cape) Actually though, I just got in from seeing HEDWIG AND THE ANGRY INCH. That'll hold me awhile, thank you very much. "I put on some MAKE-up/I turn up the EIGHT-track..." Andy June 19  A 10-year-old boy who had been abandoned by his parents survived for two years in a cave with a pack of stray dogs who scavenged for food with him and may even have suckled him, child care workers say. The boy, thrown out of his home by abusive parents at the age of five, ran with 15 strays in the southern port town of Talcahuano after he escaped from a care center two years ago. "He lived in a cave with dogs and roamed the streets for food with them. He would eat out of garbage cans and find leftovers," Delia Delgatto, head of Chile's National Child-care Service, told Reuters Monday. She said earlier reports by the police that the boy had been brought up by dogs since he was a baby had turned out to be off the mark. "He wasn't reared by the dogs as such, he lived with them in a cave," she said. The boy, who has not been named, threw himself into the wintry cold waters of the southern Pacific Ocean on Saturday to escape from police who had been alerted to his case by the municipality. "A police officer dived into the water and saved him," a spokesman for the police said. He said the dogs looked after the boy: "They were like his family." The child, dubbed "Dog Boy" by the Chilean media, spent a day in a hospital in the city of Concepcion and was then taken to a child care center. "He's showing signs of depression, is aggressive and is not speaking much although he does know how to speak," Delgatto said. "He was dressed almost in rags, was dirty and had filthy hair." The police spokesman said the boy had drunk milk from the breasts of one of the female dogs, but Delgatto said she did not know whether he had been suckled or not. "We can't tell whether he was or wasn't," she said. Photographs taken on Monday showed the boy, dark skinned with black hair, holding a child's crayon drawing of a pack of dogs. Two of his front teeth were broken and he had what appeared to be a scar on his left cheek. [--from http://tlc.discovery.com/news/reu/20010618/dogboy.html ] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:52:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] are we nearly there yet? (ns) On 20 Jun 2001, Dan Schmidt wrote: > Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey writes: > > | Back to Radiohead's "Pyramid Song": What I first heard was a bar of 5, a > | bar of 3, another bar of 5, two bars of 3, a bar of 5, a bar of 3, and > | then a bar of 5. After that, I think, it starts repeating. (Hey, I was > | doing this in real time on first listen, so if I'm wrong please don't > | shoot.) Now add up those numbers...that's right, 32 beats...or 8 bars of > | 4. I'd say the accents are just crossing over the bar lines - certainly > | made the string chart easier for the players to read, I'm sure. > > It took me a couple listens to figure out what's going on, but once > you do, it's actually quite (almost disappointingly) straightforward. > It's just a slow half-shuffle 4/4 (around 60 bpm) subdivided into > 3+3+4+3+3 (=16) groups of 16th notes. Uh well-uh, that's pretty much what I said, except I didn't get into the shuffle thing, figuring it'd just confuse people. But until the drums come in, it's very hard to hear how the beat is being subdivided - that is, how many divisions between the first accent (which is 1) and the second (which is the shuffled "and" of 2: if you pretend the swung notes are even triplets, that puts 5 triplets between the two beats - certainly not the most obvious division in the world, esp. when rather than resolving that swung beat with a typical 3+3+2 swung 4 (albeit in triplets: 5+4+3=12 triplets=4 beats), they carry across the bar and appear to be in 5... Quite clever - making something that's theoretically simple sound quite complex. As to the Bulgarian thing...uh, okay (but I second the recommendation of Ivo Papasov - imagine if early Mahavishnu grew up in Bulgaria and sub clarinet for McLaughlin's guitar...) - but what's really odd is that two songs sound kinda *Brazilian* ("Knives OUt" and another one whose title slips my mind - go ahead; imagine "Knives Out" arranged for two nylon-string acoustics and percussion, replace Yorke's voice with Astrud Gilberto's, add a little Getzian sax...) - and the last track sounds like a suicide note from a New Orleans street band. Oh yeah: IS TOO "SONGS"! - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::the sea is the night asleep in the daytime:: __Robert Desnos__ np: Lida Husik _Joyride_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:06:44 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] are we nearly there yet? (ns) At Wednesday 6/20/2001 08:52 PM -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >Oh yeah: IS TOO "SONGS"! Nope, is not. I've listened to AMNESIAC and it's even less songy (and less appealing to me) than KID A. It *might* be music though. Later. --Rog - -- When toads are not enough: http://www.reignoffrogs.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:28:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] Roger Winston buys another network Lost in all the vocabulary hoopla is the fact that, once again, a key point in a major television show (_South Park_ in this case) promoted Rog's band. I'd say a major meecrobload of cash must have changed hands there... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::beliefs are ideas going bald:: __Francis Picabia__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:03:32 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Roger Winston buys another network >Lost in all the vocabulary hoopla is the fact that, once again, a key >point in a major television show (_South Park_ in this case) promoted >Rog's band. > >I'd say a major meecrobload of cash must have changed hands there... I just finished a certain Stephen King story, from NIGHTMARES & DREAMSCAPES. Rog, you get him with the subliminal-tape-under-the-pillow trick or which? Meecrobload? (That's a band from Cologne.) Andy MOSCOW, Russia (Reuters) -- If an American millionaire could do it, why not a Russian pop star? Russia's culture minister has written a letter to the head of the country's space program backing a music producer's plan to send up a member of a pop group for the first ever boy-band concert in orbit, Izvestia newspaper reported Tuesday. Ever since U.S. millionaire Dennis Tito paid Moscow for a ride to the international space station in late April, wheeler-dealers have been looking for ways to exploit the commercial potential of a space program known to be open for business. Backers of the pop group Na Na told Izvestia that the band, known for catchy tunes and pretty-boy looks, took a cosmonaut training course for fun before Tito ever got off the ground. Izvestia quoted from a letter by Culture Minister Mikhail Shvydkoi to space program head Yuri Koptev supporting plans to put a member of the group into space. "To maintain the continuity of generations and steer young Russians toward cosmonautics, it is necessary to popularize space work," Shvydkoi wrote. His letter described the possibility of a band member joining a Russian crew in space as "interesting." "Their healthy optimism, stability and sense of tradition could be a symbol for young Russians," Shvydkoi said. The group, which has been around for more than a decade as a sort of Russian version of the U.S. chart-toppers New Kids on the Block, combines romantic tunes with peppy dance routines. They are hugely popular with Russian preteen girls. Izvestia quoted Na Na producer B.K. Alibasov as saying that since only one member of the group would be able to go into space, the others would join him in a concert, harmonizing by radio hook-up from the ground. [--from http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/06/20/space.russia.band.reut/index.html ] (courtesy Michael Zwirn) ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #134 *******************************