From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #92 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, May 24 2001 Volume 01 : Number 092 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God ["Phil Gerrard" ] Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge (ns) [Roger Winston ] Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge (ns) [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] What are you going to do with your bunnies? [Miles Goosen] Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge (ns) [Dana L Paoli ] [loud-fans] catching up on things [Michael Zwirn ] Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge, Medicine Woman (ns) [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] catching up on things ["glenn mcdonald" ] Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice ["John Swartzentruber" ] [loud-fans] boy, is he drawn badly!! (ns) [Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God Jeff wrote: > I would say it has far more to do with the power and prevalence of > Christianity: railing against people in the minority (both power & > prevalence -wise) sounds more like bigotry plain and simple, whereas > having a go at those in power has a political component to it. Mmm. I tend to forget this as I'm coming from a UK perspective: over here politicians tend not to go in for overt displays of their religious faith, unlike in the USA or in a lot of Europe. Having said that, Tony Blair can get a little tiresome about the Christian basis of his morality, and I can only think of one political leader in recent memory (Neil Kinnock, who led the Labour Party from 1984 to 1992) who was prepared to acknowledge his atheism publicly. He lost two general elections, although I doubt there's really any causal link... >Note, too, that most overt anti-Christians are former Christians themselves. Former Catholics, and yes, that includes me, tend to be the most strident anti-Christians in my experience. What I find interesting is that the anti-Christianity sometimes doesn't seem atheistic as much as it seems to be a challenge to God's authority: rather than 'God doesn't exist: end of debate', the attitude is more like 'if you *are* up there, then take your best shot, motherf**ker'. See Patti Smith's first two albums for further details. ain't it stray-ay-aynge - peace & love phil Phil Gerrard Senior Admissions Officer The External Programme University of London E-mail: p.gerrard@eisa.lon.ac.uk 'Phone: 020 7862 8369 Fax: 020 7862 8363 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:44:41 -0400 From: popanda@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] What are you going to do with your bunnies? For those who like Ian and co. (or maybe just his spiky die hard '80s hair and pouty lips...like sugar lol), the new Echo and the Bunnymen record is not a disappointment. It is like the Lloyd Cole and the Negatives release in that we've been down this road many times before, but the scenery is never tiresome (with the exception of REVERBERATION and that faux vocalist, and not counting the false start of Electrafixion). It's rockier than '99s WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE?. It ain't no OCEAN RAIN, but it's pretty good stuff IMHO. Now if Morrissey and Marr would get back together....(Why not? Everyone else is) M np Stars NIGHTSONGS LP "They aren't forgiving you/And you're not even wrong" Morrissey "Sunny" ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:55:23 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge (ns) In a message dated 5/23/01 10:12:25 AM, mbowen@frontiernet.net writes: << Color me impressed. Did you actually watch DR QUINN back then, or is there a list that you pulled these from somewhere? >> Yes, it's a list called the Prime Time Network Schedule. It's only made available to media professionals, although you may find access to a trade publication called "TV Guide." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:41:23 -0500 From: Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com Subject: [loud-fans] The President takes his mourning constitutional Cardinal sez: I may have missed Steve's sig. line, but I'd like for you to list Bush's trampling of the Constitution the last 5 months. Please. And make sure that he really has pissed on it; if you and others merely disagree, your superiority is so, well ....... last century [exaggerated eye-rolling]. <><><><><><><> Steve's .sig: "'we must therefore reject the central animating idea of modern Establishment Clause analysis: that taxpayers have a constitutional right to insist that none of their taxes be used for religious purposes.'" - Michael McConnell, Bush Circuit Court nominee" Bush's first public act as president was to circumvent the first ten words of the first amendment (the first of those ten words being "Congress", so if the president doesn't go through this channel, it's apparently O.K.) by establishing an office of "Faith Based Initiatives". (Parenthetically, I find it amusing that the alleged fiscal conservative who "trusts the people, not big government" would begin governing by establishing a new government bureaucracy whose purpose is to funnel government money to private tax-exempt agencies, so that they can administer to the sort of social needs which are perceived by fiscal conservatives as "looking for a government freebie" when those same dollars are being funneled through governmental, and allegedly voter accountable, agencies, but all of this is simply politics as usual, and I digress.) That, to these ears is the splashing-into-the-toilet-bowl-for-a-good-long-time sound of one big, satisfying piss. As to whether I like him or not, I'm sure ten years ago he would've been a blast to do blow with, but as for his current status, I will paraphrase his veep: "Pandering to political coalitions with apocalypse obsessed spirituality may be a personal virtue, but it's not a sound basis for national policy." ...---...Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:43:00 -0500 From: Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] foot in mouth disease and knee-jerk dickheads.... .... [exaggerated ellipsis] Cardinal sez: My comments were to demonstrate that calling a president -- from either party - -- a buffoon when he has been inaugurated with no mandate, significant resentment, vehement partisan and ideological opposition, and no appreciable public speaking skills at all -- while still controlling the public agenda of discussion -- struck me as rather "unbuffoonish." My comments were, to me, sarcastic and rather pointed -- none of the elements I listed was actually present. <><><><><><><><><><> Fair enough. I mistakenly read your comments as meaning something other than their mere inverse. Reviewing your comments in question: "He ended up riding in on a giant wave of popular support and an overwhelming mandate, tripped over himself daily, and now has the country talking about the other party's agenda. He CEOd himself right into the ground. But he remains telegenic, of course." With the exception of the word "daily" (and if one read the Wall Street Journal during the period, one might have been convinced otherwise), they do accurately describe Clinton, and echo the battery of gripes deployed against him. Much more than his successor. But given the paradigm "what I say is exactly the opposite of what I mean", which I of all people oughtta be able to spot, sure, I see your point. but that wasn't my knee, - --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:52:31 EDT From: Bucolicmusic@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice "Nobody in this life is nearer to God than those who hate and deny him, and he has no more pleasing, no more dear children than these." -Luther Heard a song off the new Pernice Brothers on the radio last night which has me looking forward to it. Did they switch labels? Also heard a good song by Low with the Dirty Three. - -Andy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:12:40 -0400 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge (ns) MBowen asked for examples, JRT provided them, MBowen asked how he did it... Yes, it's a list called the Prime Time Network Schedule. It's only made available to media professionals, although you may find access to a trade publication called "TV Guide." >>>>>>>>>>> Wow, so you can search "TV Guide" for "TV characters ranting against God" and come up with a list!? That is too cool!! Hey, Billy Corgan is joining New Order temporarily. That is so weird!! And, there was a wood floor hidden under the ugly linoleum in our new kitchen. That is so great!! - --dana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 8:32:14 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge (ns) JRT456@aol.com on 2001/05/24 Thu AM 06:55:23 MDT wrote: > In a message dated 5/23/01 10:12:25 AM, mbowen@frontiernet.net writes: > > << Color me impressed. Did you actually watch DR QUINN back then, or is there > a list that you pulled these from somewhere? >> > > Yes, it's a list called the Prime Time Network Schedule. It's only made > available to media professionals, although you may find access to a trade > publication called "TV Guide." I haven't looked at a TV Guide in awhile. So they now have an indication of which shows contain Christian Bashing? Do they use a symbol like for Closed Captioning? That could be somewhat useful. Later. --Rog - -- When toads are not enough: http://www.reignoffrogs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:28:50 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge (ns) In a message dated 5/24/01 7:31:54 AM, dana-boy@juno.com writes: << Wow, so you can search "TV Guide" for "TV characters ranting against God" and come up with a list!? That is too cool!! >> ....matched with Richard Dawson and rwinston@tde.com, who writes: << I haven't looked at a TV Guide in awhile. So they now have an indication of which shows contain Christian Bashing? Do they use a symbol like for Closed Captioning? That could be somewhat useful. >> While I appreciate the mental image of anti-Christ icons, indulge me in stating the obvious: Rants against the Christian God aren't a standard dramatic device on TV just because I said so. Rather, I said so because rants against the Christian God are a standard dramatic device--and it's easy to provide examples. A "TV Guide" plot synopsis is often helpful if you want to collect them all. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:18:57 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] What are you going to do with your bunnies? At 08:44 AM 5/24/2001 -0400, popanda@juno.com wrote: >For those who like Ian and co. (or maybe just his spiky die hard '80s >hair and pouty lips...like sugar lol), the new Echo and the Bunnymen >record is not a disappointment. It is like the Lloyd Cole and the >Negatives release in that we've been down this road many times before, >but the scenery is never tiresome (with the exception of REVERBERATION >and that faux vocalist, and not counting the false start of >Electrafixion). It's rockier than '99s WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH >YOUR LIFE?. It ain't no OCEAN RAIN, but it's pretty good stuff IMHO. Just about anything would be rockier than WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE?, which put me straight to sleep with unmemorable ballad after unmemorable ballad after unmemorable ballad. I'll put it this way: WHAT ARE YOU GOING... makes REVEAL sound like MONSTER. So if the new album has more bite, it's welcome news to me. I'm still more excited over the Bunnymen boxed set, though. Incidentally, there's a guy on the Roxy Music list who thinks that Echo and the Bunnymen are the worst band in the history of humankind, and his head nearly exploded in '99 when Mac cited Roxy Music as a major influence. Two live notes: * I saw the Bunnymen on their 1997 U.S. tour, and I saw Electrafixion the year before. While overall neither could match the '88 show I saw (R.I.P. Pete DeFritas), Will Sergeant just keeps getting better and better -- even when saddled with the cumbersome Electrafixion material, his playing was amazing. I'd happily go see them again if this wasn't a typical "Bunnymen Avoid the South" tour, or if I had enough vacation time to slide up to Chicago or Cleveland... * Speaking of Lloyd Cole and the Negatives, they played Nashville on March 20th. It was his first-ever Nashville date, and my first Cole show after nearly seventeen years of fandom. Jeff Downing, Angie, Melissa, and I snagged a front-row table at a jam-packed 12th & Porter (full on a Tuesday night!), and were ready to be mightily entertained. Rarely have I been so disappointed. I wasn't expecting the Commotions, or the precise brilliance of the Quine/Sweet/Maher combo from the first solo albums, but the Negatives played everything tentatively, not even managing a "ragged but right" enthusiasm. The entire show lacked momentum and pacing, though Lloyd seemed feyly pleased with himself and his band. I can't imagine why. Perhaps Lloyd should have peppered the setlist with uptempo workouts like "Tell Your Sister" and "I Hate To See You Baby Doin' That Stuff," more basic fare that this band might have stood a chance of pulling off. I guess I hadn't realized how much the bulk of Lloyd's material depends on expert and precise execution, but songs like "No Blue Skies" and "Perfect Skin" came out sounding indifferent at best since no one in the band seemed able to pull off the parts. Sure, Lloyd was a bit under the weather, and the band isn't a full-time concern for any of its members, but even taking all that into consideration, the show fell well short of tepid. I'd been literally hopping with enthusiasm two weeks before when Melissa and I came to the club for a Scott Miller show and spotted the Lloyd Cole flyers; I left with a scowl on my face and without the Negatives CD I had planned to buy direct from Lloyd after the show. Let him come back and earn it next time. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:24:52 -0400 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge (ns) Rants against the Christian God aren't a > standard > dramatic device on TV just because I said so. Rather, I said so > because rants > against the Christian God are a standard dramatic device--and it's > easy to > provide examples. A "TV Guide" plot synopsis is often helpful if you > want to > collect them all. >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure it is, but how do you do it? Do you search for a keyword ("Dr. Quinn + Reverend +blind"; "pious man + banana + slip +hippies +laugh") or do you have to slog through the tv schedule, reading random synopses until you find what you're looking for? I mean, Mr. Roper thinking that Jack and Chrissie are having sex in the bathroom is also a standard dramatic device, but I don't think I could quickly find the specific episodes by using TV Guide, in my present state of knowledge. So how did you do it!!! Spill the beans, you media insider, you!!! And, I still don't understand what you were doing watching "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman." Is that some sort of punishment that Playboy uses for employees who steal office supplies? - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:59:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Zwirn Subject: [loud-fans] catching up on things I was busy of late - getting a master's degree, going on vacation, etc. - and returned to 195 new mail messages, many of them from Loudfans. Few things a) it's a lot easier in popular culture to mock Christianity - especially particular brands of Christianity, namely that practiced by sincere evangelical Christians, of the Southern (white) conservative brand [wouldn't want to mock sincere evangelical Christians of the black gospel variety] - than a minority religion. The simple reason is that criticizing or mocking a religion to which the majority of the nation adheres does not really pose a threat to anyone. You're not going to hear a mainstream recording artist or a TV show say the kinds of things about Judaism and Islam (or Jainism, Shinto, etc.) that you may hear about evangelical Protestantism or Catholicism, because Jews and Muslims and Jains have legitimate fears of persecution and discrimination from the institutions of power in this country. Pop culture, oblivious to many things, has figured that out at last, over the past forty years of anti-defamation leagues, civil rights movements, etc. Besides, pop culture's creators and marketers are disproportionately members of a minority religion themselves, and sensitive to the kinds of damage that can result when the instruments of mass culture are directed against minorities. b) Does Patty Griffin have some kind of live album out? I heard a smashing version of "Mary" with Emmylou singing backup on "Folk Radio 90.9" in Boston, and I much prefer it to the album version. c) REVEAL is growing on me ... although "Saturn Returns" is awful and I can't get the Beachboyisms. But "The Lifting," "She Just Wants to Be," "I'll Take the Rain" and "Imitation of Life" are definitely all that. d) Has the national touring schedule for bands been really dry of late? I know I've been busy, but Boston just hasn't had anything really exciting in awhile (except a Pernice Brothers show on the 19th that I was way too busy to attend, darn it). Michael n.p. Loud Family, Slouching Toward Liverpool. Before I pack up all my vinyl for a move to an undetermined destination, somewhere ... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Zwirn mzwirn01@tufts.edu ICQ #12755821 Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, Tufts University, Medford MA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:01:28 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] best TV Sponge, Medicine Woman (ns) In a message dated 5/24/01 9:33:48 AM, dana-boy@juno.com writes about the proper use of "TV Guide": << I'm sure it is, but how do you do it? Do you search for a keyword ("Dr. Quinn + Reverend +blind"; "pious man + banana + slip +hippies +laugh") or do you have to slog through the tv schedule...And, I still don't understand what you were doing watching "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman." Is that some sort of punishment that Playboy uses for employees who steal office supplies? >> While there's probably a perfectly fine website, I'm only familiar with "TV Guide" as a print publication--although there's also the TV Guide Channel available with most basic cable systems. And watching "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman" was actually punishment for working with another media empire. I had to watch "Christy," too, but that was worth it to see Kellie Martin's hot little bod wrapped up like Holly Hobbie. The Joe Dante fans on this list will likely agree. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:16:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice On Thu, 24 May 2001 Bucolicmusic@aol.com wrote: > "Nobody in this life is nearer to God than those who hate and deny him, and > he has no more pleasing, no more dear children than these." -Luther Andy's quote here reminds me to note that a lot of us seem to be confusing rants against "the Christian God" (to use JRT's locution) with rants against Christianity as established religion. The first seem motivated either by displeasure with a cosmic sort of injustice or pissy newfound atheism, while the second should (but often don't) trouble to distinguish between the actions of the church, or of individual and powerful Christians, and the principles the church stands for. I still think it's pretty ridiculous for some Christians to imagine themselves persecuted minorities (except in very limited social venues) - I mean, I can't turn on the TV without being subjected to Buddhist propaganda, Muslim symbology, or this week's TV-movie feel-good version of Zoroastrianism. And every few months _Newsweek_ has a cover story about Baal and his followers. (note to D. McGreevy: you may safely read the preceding paragraph ironically.) > Heard a song off the new Pernice Brothers on the radio last night which has > me looking forward to it. Did they switch labels? Also heard a good song by > Low with the Dirty Three. haven't heard the Pernice Bros. thing - but I heard Low and Dirty Three's cover of "Down by the River" (the Neil Young song, not the Dixieland standard) - excellent stuff, and Mimi Parker's vocal changes the song's meaning in at least two potentially interesting ways. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Californians invented the concept of the life-style. ::This alone warrants their doom. __Don DeLillo, WHITE NOISE__ np: System and Station _Pictures Found in Paragraphs_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:58:25 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice >Andy's quote here reminds me to note that a lot of us seem to be confusing >rants against "the Christian God" (to use JRT's locution) with rants >against Christianity as established religion. How many such rants are presented as leading to atheism, and how many as temporary doubts later leading to reconciliation? The latter type is firmly within the tradition that ranges from the book of Job to THE PROBLEM OF PAIN, and can't be considered anti-Christian in any way--in fact, quite the opposite. I haven't seen any of the listed examples, so I may be wrong, but I'd hazard a guess that the latter is more common than the former. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:01:47 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] catching up on things > b) Does Patty Griffin have some kind of live album out? I heard a > smashing version of "Mary" with Emmylou singing backup This is from the compilation _Concerts for a Landmine Free World_, performances taken from Emmylou's benefit-concert series. Emmylou, John Prine, Guy Clark, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Bruce Cockburn, Nanci Griffith, Gillian Welch, Patti, Steve Earle and some others. Pretty nice. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:18:21 -0400 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice On Thu, 24 May 2001 10:58:25 -0700, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: >How many such rants are presented as leading to atheism, and how many as >temporary doubts later leading to reconciliation? The latter type is firmly >within the tradition that ranges from the book of Job to THE PROBLEM OF PAIN, >and can't be considered anti-Christian in any way--in fact, quite the opposite. >I haven't seen any of the listed examples, so I may be wrong, but I'd hazard a >guess that the latter is more common than the former. "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" I suppose this is just another example of a rant against the Christian God. I didn't see most of the examples listed previously, but I sure never heard anything anti-Christian in Pembleton's rants against God on Homicide. I suspect the case is true of many of the other examples. If the argument is that this is an easy way to get an Emmy, there may be a case for this. If the argument is that it shows an anti-Christian bias, I disagree. [and in case I'm not being at all clear, I'm agreeing with Tim, not disagreeing. I would also throw in a goodly number of the Psalms.] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:28:43 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice In a message dated 5/24/01 10:24:48 AM, jenor@csd.uwm.edu writes: << I still think it's pretty ridiculous for some Christians to imagine themselves persecuted minorities (except in very limited social venues) -I mean, I can't turn on the TV without being subjected to Buddhist propaganda, Muslim symbology, or this week's TV-movie feel-good version of Zoroastrianism.... >> Step outside our happy hipster world of Western privilege, and Christians are routinely imprisoned and worse for practicing their religious beliefs. And yet many people still love to rationalize why Christians in America don't deserve respect or even equal protection under the law. Meanwhile, the folks at Wedgwood Baptist Church probably don't feel particularly privileged. They're wondering why their loved ones don't rate the marquee value of a Matthew Shepard or a James Byrd Jr. The answer, of course, is that we're only talking about dead Christians. And while I can't go with MZwirn's theory about Jews controlling the media, most pop-culture attacks against Christianity are written by people with no real familiarity with the religion. One of the lamest things in recent television was a WEST WING episode where the President triumphantly stumped a Dr. Laura clone by citing how the Bible condemns many common things (such as intermingled threads in clothing) in addition to homosexuality. Only a Hollywood screenwriter would think that a Christian Ph.D--in English literature--wouldn't have studied the Bible enough to have a reasonable response. Which reminds me of "Ken's Guide To The Bible," a hilarious hipster tome in which author Ken Smith helps you stump Christians by bringing up amazing Biblical contradictions that most young Christians have already figured out by the fifth year of Sunday School. But, of course, most Christians are really stupid and can't possibly comprehend their own religion. At least that's how it often plays on TV. But who could that possibly hurt? It's not like they're offending Buddhists or Muslims. And the new Pernice is pretty good. As I understand it, he was able to wrangle his way out of his old recording contract and start his own label. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:37:20 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants FOR God In a message dated 5/24/01 11:24:06 AM, jswartz@rica.net writes: << I didn't see most of the examples listed previously, but I sure never heard anything anti-Christian in Pembleton's rants against God on Homicide...If the argument is that this is an easy way to get an Emmy, there may be a case for this. If the argument is that it shows an anti-Christian bias, I disagree.>> There was more of an anti-Catholic angle with Pembleton. And, of course, many of these TV-worthy rants against God lead to reconciliation. I'll be surprised if next season's WEST WING doesn't have a big scene where Bartlett rediscovers his faith. Nobody--or at least not me--has said that renewed faith isn't part of the traditional safe schlock. It sure was on DR. QUINN, MEDICINE WOMAN. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:47:03 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice At 02:28 PM 5/24/01 -0400, JRT456@aol.com wrote: >One of the lamest things in recent >television was a WEST WING episode where the President triumphantly stumped a >Dr. Laura clone by citing how the Bible condemns many common things (such as >intermingled threads in clothing) in addition to homosexuality. Only a >Hollywood screenwriter would think that a Christian Ph.D--in English >literature--wouldn't have studied the Bible enough to have a reasonable >response. Which reminds me of "Ken's Guide To The Bible," a hilarious hipster >tome in which author Ken Smith helps you stump Christians by bringing up >amazing Biblical contradictions that most young Christians have already >figured out by the fifth year of Sunday School. But, of course, most >Christians are really stupid and can't possibly comprehend their own >religion. Just a couple of points in response: 1) The Bible is not a unified document written, or even redacted, by a single intelligence. It's a grab-bag of miscellaneous documents, imperfectly harmonized with each other--hence the discipline of Biblical exegesis, and the need for theology to interpret the Scriptures. Interpretation necessitates choosing which aspects of these writings to emphasize; if you're going to cite Leviticus as a condemnation of homosexuality, then what do you do with the Torah's dietary prohibitions? It's the same Law! And frankly, I'm not so convinced by the vision of St. Peter in Acts--it smells of editorial interpolation to me, a sop to the Gentiles who didn't want to become Judaized before becoming Christians. 2) As far as most Christians being stupid and not really comprehending their own religion, frankly, most churchgoers don't impress me with their understanding of Christianity's basic teachings. I've spoken to (nominal) evangelicals who aren't too clear on whether Jesus is God or not; and as a Catholic priest of my acquaintance once said, "I could stand up at the pulpit on Sunday morning and say 'Jesus is not God,' and they wouldn't bat an eye, but if I move one goddamn candle, they go crazy!" And forget about the nuances of Trinitarian doctrine, the Incarnation, justification by works vs. justification by faith, etc. Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley But now we absolutely must not miss the chance--and to have such a chance is too good to be true--finally to bring an end to at least this infamous litany of abominations that we all are (collectively and individually); and I mean by that, obviously, in a complete atomic nuclear way! The tragedy, the true catastrophe--is that humanity continues...while the divine benediction would be qualified as thermonuclear or some equivalent thereof. Not to be of this opinion is to be selfish, criminal, monstrous, if not stark mad. Louis Wolfson, "Full Stop for an Infernal Planet"; excerpted in _Apocalypse Culture_ [1990] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:47:59 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice In a message dated 5/24/01 11:41:18 AM, mweber@library.berkeley.edu writes: << and as a Catholic priest of my acquaintance once said, "I could stand up at the pulpit on Sunday morning and say 'Jesus is not God,' and they wouldn't bat an eye, but if I move one goddamn candle, they go crazy!" >> Try socializing with Catholic priests at someplace besides NAMBLA meetings. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:53:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice On Thu, 24 May 2001 JRT456@aol.com wrote: > And while I can't go with MZwirn's theory about Jews controlling the media, > most pop-culture attacks against Christianity are written by people with no > real familiarity with the religion. One of the lamest things in recent > television was a WEST WING episode where the President triumphantly stumped a > Dr. Laura clone by citing how the Bible condemns many common things (such as > intermingled threads in clothing) in addition to homosexuality. Only a > Hollywood screenwriter would think that a Christian Ph.D--in English > literature--wouldn't have studied the Bible enough to have a reasonable > response. Which reminds me of "Ken's Guide To The Bible," a hilarious hipster > tome in which author Ken Smith helps you stump Christians by bringing up > amazing Biblical contradictions that most young Christians have already > figured out by the fifth year of Sunday School. Not to mention the arrogance of assuming that pointing out a logical flaw in the Bible would sunder someone's beliefs to such an extent that the person who pointed out the flaw would be hailed as a hero. "But God also hates oak trees [or whatever]." "Oh, my! You're right! All these years, I've been wrong. Thank you, snotty hipster doofus!" > And the new Pernice is pretty good. As I understand it, he was able to > wrangle his way out of his old recording contract and start his own label. I've also heard a song from this album and like it. So there. J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:02:47 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice At 02:47 PM 5/24/01 -0400, JRT456@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/24/01 11:41:18 AM, mweber@library.berkeley.edu writes: > ><< and as a Catholic priest of my acquaintance once said, "I could stand up >at the >pulpit on Sunday morning and say 'Jesus is not God,' and they wouldn't bat >an eye, but if I move one goddamn candle, they go crazy!" >> > >Try socializing with Catholic priests at someplace besides NAMBLA meetings. Oh, I get it. Catholic priests are pederasts, and so am I. Ha! Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley But now we absolutely must not miss the chance--and to have such a chance is too good to be true--finally to bring an end to at least this infamous litany of abominations that we all are (collectively and individually); and I mean by that, obviously, in a complete atomic nuclear way! The tragedy, the true catastrophe--is that humanity continues...while the divine benediction would be qualified as thermonuclear or some equivalent thereof. Not to be of this opinion is to be selfish, criminal, monstrous, if not stark mad. Louis Wolfson, "Full Stop for an Infernal Planet"; excerpted in _Apocalypse Culture_ [1990] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:04:24 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: [loud-fans] Re: Dream side ONE Larry Tucker wrote: > > Mark Lanagan - Untitled Lullaby > A slow song to begin this collection, but I really like this guys voice. > There's something about the music that reminds me a little of Jack Logan > for some reason. Any connection? I have to admit that I don't know who Jack Logan is. I've never heard of a connection. > Ride - Dreams Burn Down > Another missing artist in my collection which I will quickly remedy. > Sounded like a brighter version of Built to Spill. Also reminded me a > lot of another fave of mine in this style, the Stone Roses. Where's a > good place to start Riding? I started with "Smile" and am still quite partial to it. > The Wellwater Conspiracy - Of Dreams > This is truly my most treasured find on this tape. Jenny, I loved this. > The bass and drums reminded me a lot of some of those great early Who > songs. I have got to know more about this band. I've never even heard of > them until now. For most of your WWC needs, visit http://www.nowinvisibly.com/Wellwater/index.htm Also, there is a great video interview with some live snippets at http://www.burlybear.com/music/featured_artist/wellwater/index.html The band consists of John McBain and Matt Cameron at the core, with a rotating cast of collaborators that often includes Ben Shepherd, and also boasts Josh Homme, Kim Thayil, and Eddie Vedder. The live band consists of John, Matt, Ben, Jack Endino, and Glenn Slater. The sound is 60's-70's psychedelic-tinged garage style. This particular song, "Of Dreams" is a Steve Morgan cover. > For Against - Nightmare Life > I enjoyed this though I've never heard of them. They remind me a bit of > Richard Barone or the Bongos. Are they a Hoboken band? I thought the > ending was a little drawn out though. I don't really know anything about them. I heard some stuff on college radio and recently picked this album up used. > Eleven - Big Sleep > Didn't much care for this one. Sounds like a Soundgarden clone. And > there's all those way too fast guitar leads. Are they also from the > Northwest? They're from L.A. and have been around quite a while now. They opened for Soundgarden years ago, and more recently backed up Chris Cornell on his solo tour. > Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds - I Had a Dream, Joe > The reincarnation of Jim Morrison and the Doors? That sexy, creepy > voice. Doesn't he have a new album out? Yes, but I don't have it or know much about it. I saw him on TV (don't remember which show. Letterman?) doing a new song, with Kate and Anna McGarragil (sp?) backing him up. > Grace - Sleep Well > Sounds to me like a Hootie clone. I hope they do sleep well. Nah, I wouldn't say that (having heard more by them and seen them live). They are a bit mainstream pop sounding for my taste, so maybe that's what you meant. They did break up and Peter Cornell is back doing solo work now. > Marc Olson - To Sleep > I've always wanted to hear something from this man and I'm glad I did. I > loved the guitar break, but I would have liked the song even better with > a not so soft vocal treatment. His vocals are very whispery in general, and he's a shy performer, but he did a kick-ass job of lead guitar for the '98 Lanegan tour! This song is particularly fragile, though. > Loud Family - Sister Sleep > Of course this would be *the one* to end with though. And what a fine > little jewel this is, and equally good live. One among many Scott > classics. This is really one of my very favorite songs, by anybody. > Thanks again Jenny for a fine tape! I never believed any of those jokes > about people from West Virginia anyway. Hey- I'm not FROM West Virginia, I just live here now :) Jen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:06:14 -0400 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] boy, is he drawn badly!! (ns) A man A hat a guitar Letterman!! (badly drawn boy is on the late show tonight. Rerun? I dunno.) - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:17:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV rants against God/ Pernice On Thu, 24 May 2001 JRT456@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 11:41:18 AM, mweber@library.berkeley.edu writes: > > << and as a Catholic priest of my acquaintance once said, "I could stand up > at the > pulpit on Sunday morning and say 'Jesus is not God,' and they wouldn't bat > an eye, but if I move one goddamn candle, they go crazy!" >> > > Try socializing with Catholic priests at someplace besides NAMBLA meetings. Sorry - I've met Matt, and while he does bear resemblances by turn to both Pete Townshend and Salman Rushdie (go figure), he looks nothing like Marlon Brando. Oh - and Michael Zwirn said (or rather, implied) that Jews were *disproportionately* represented in media (that is, simply that there are more of them than a simple statistical abstraction might predcit) - not that they "control" it. It's just that sort of misrepresentation that you were complaining about re the portrayal of Christians in the media. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey, who'll let Rog explain the South Park joke if need be J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Californians invented the concept of the life-style. ::This alone warrants their doom. __Don DeLillo, WHITE NOISE__ ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #92 ******************************