From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #50 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, April 25 2001 Volume 01 : Number 050 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] Shouting Distance [rlewis@adnc.com (Russ Lewis)] Re: [loud-fans] Girls who want boys who like girls [jenny grover ] Re: [loud-fans] Girls who want boys who like girls [angela_and_ian@forest] Re: [loud-fans] Girls who want boys who like girls ["CJ" ] Re: [loud-fans] creeps on Kilborn (ns) [jenny grover > Any of my business how to find this one? Steve? Jer? Scott Tissue El Cajon CA The act of the sexes is the axis of the sects. -- surrealist proverb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 03:02:00 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Girls who want boys who like girls Dan McCarthy wrote: > > The 80's is probably the easiest decade in which to look. One name that > springs to mind immediately is Book of Love, though I don't know if I would > lump them in with N'Sync et. al. (primarily because, well, heck, I > *like* Book of Love!) i thought they played instruments, though, or did they? one of the criteria the article seemed to limit to was that they meant vocal groups, not those who played instruments onstage. i would have mentioned the cowsills first off, but didn't they played instruments onstage? Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:16:31 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shouting Distance ><< Shouting Distance: "Inverness" > A brilliant a cappella cover of my sometimes >favorite song of all time. What's the story behind >this one, anyway? >> > >Any of my business how to find this one? Steve? Jer? Shouting Distance turns out to be Our Tim Walters wearing yet another of his many hats. From the Loud-archive, here's the URL: http://www.feastofweeds.com/shouting/Inverness.mp3 Hey Tim, I can't get it to download more than the first minute or so. What could be wrong? I think I burnt me finger, Andy "SO YOU WANT TO BE AN ACTION FIGURE? Well this is not for everyone. It is not for the weak. Do you have an Iron Will? Can you take the relentless pressure? What pressure you ask? Just picture thisyou are sitting at work doing paper work when you look on your desk and see your own AndGor Personalized Action Figure of yourself staring back at you! You look away. You look back. You try to look away again but your eyes meet! It's Play Time! Five minutes later you are saving the world from the evil paper clip demons when your boss walks in with this weeks reports. Ooops! Well if you think you can take the pressure, then read on. We are going to tell you all you ever wanted to know about becoming an action figure. So read on if you dare!" - --from http://www.andgor.com/Personalized_Figures/personalized_figures.html (courtesy Paul H. Henry) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:49:57 +0100 From: angela_and_ian@forestrd.ftech.co.uk (Angela Bennett & Ian Runeckles) Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Girls who want boys who like girls Michael: >Now, I figure there has to be some counterexamples to this--there must be >some teeny-bopper, studio pop acts that have both boys and girls, but I'm >having a very hard time coming up with anything. The only act I can come >up with is that Mormon family (not Osmond) from the upper midwest in the >early 80s, whoever they were. But there has to be more, right? Here in the UK the latest abomination to hit the charts is Hear'say - a three girl, two boy pop act manufactured through a TV programme. Unless I heard it wrong, their album is the fastest selling of all time. I can't say I'll be waiting for the shop to open when the latest Steps CD is released but at least they have some semblance of being able to do what they do in a professional and entertaining way - on the basis of my having seen them a couple of times on Top of the Pops, Hear'say are so second-rate it's untrue. Ian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:49:28 -0500 From: "CJ" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Girls who want boys who like girls From: Michael Mitton > Now, I figure there has to be some counterexamples to this--there must be > some teeny-bopper, studio pop acts that have both boys and girls, but I'm > having a very hard time coming up with anything. The only act I can come > up with is that Mormon family (not Osmond) from the upper midwest in the > early 80s, whoever they were. But there has to be more, right? I don't know if they were Mormon or if they played instruments, but also from the mid- to late '80s: The Jets from Mpls- eight brothers and sisters. CJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:18:25 -0400 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] creeps on Kilborn (ns) Creeper Lagoon are on Craig Kilborn's Late Late show tonight, performing "Wrecking Ball." Also, the Bee Gee's are on Letterman, but I have to admit that I have no idea what they're up to these days. Apropos nothing, I just got Teenage Fanclub's "Songs from Northern Britain" and it's awfully good. I don't know why I take them for granted, as they keep a really high level of quality. There's something so unexcitingly consistent about them that it's easy to forget to actually listen to their albums, which always turn out to be better than I expected/remembered. After they're gone, I'll feel very bad about the way I've treated them. - --dana ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:21:14 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] creeps on Kilborn (ns) Dana L Paoli wrote: > > Also, the Bee Gee's are on Letterman, but I have to > admit that I have no idea what they're up to these days. their new album, 'this is where i came in', comes out today and i'm off to k-mart to get it on sale. they are going to do a special on A&E friday night, but i don't know what time it's on. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:56:09 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Girls who want boys who like girls >I don't know if they were Mormon or if they played instruments, but also >from the mid- to late '80s: The Jets from Mpls- eight brothers and sisters. Ah yes, "Crush On You." Hey, should the DeFranco Family count? "Heartbeat, It's A Lovebeat" goes on my short list of All-Time Favorite Songs. And of course, it's one of the two (with "One Bad Apple") great Jackson 5 singles the Jackson 5 never cut. Tellin' me that love is comin' on, Andy Father was bubbly. For almost a century in many parts of the United States people have referred to carbonated beverages as "pop" because of the sound you hear when you open the can or bottle. Back in the 1930s many grocery stores had a comic sign in their window that had some fun with the word: "We don't know where mom is, but we have Pop on ice." [--from THE JOY OF TRIVIA] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:49:39 EDT From: MarkWStaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dot com killed the gargage band star Just for the record, it may sound silly to compare the small city of Charleston, South Carolina to the major metropolitan area of San Francisco, but both are (or maybe make that were) thriving centers for artists, and are by the sea, and have beautiful historic districts, and both are unfortunately earthquake prone. Charleston is supposed to be quite overdue for a major one. That's why many of the historic downtown buildings built after the major quake of 1886 have earthquake bolts (sounds silly, but who knows? They just may work). I'm sure the rents in Charleston are not even in the same universe as SF, but you must remember that neither is the pay scale, either. When I lived downtown there in 1989, I was able to afford (barely) the apartment that I lived in and drove around in an old, paid for Volkswagen working minimum wage restaurant and retail jobs. This would not be possible now. Also, I used the word "kinesthetically" instead of aesthetically, as I meant to. That sounds silly. Like I'm going to be running around getting massaged by strangers and going "ooooh." I believe Book of Love played their own instruments. I had a friend back in the eighties whose favorite band was BOL. And people think MY tastes are sugar coated. I touch roses, - -Mark, who just got a call from the Greenville News that the editorial submission I e-mailed yesterday on the sad state of teacher salaries in Greenville will be published! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:29:07 -0700 From: bbradley@namesecure.com Subject: [loud-fans] FW: check out Napster feature/update from Yuji Oniki - Hello everyone, Orange has been selected by Napster for its weekly Featured Artist section. The feature will be up the rest of the week so check it out if you're running out of sites to surf through. If it doesn't appear first time around it will after a couple hits (rotating with other releases). Otherwise you can just find it on their Artists' site. Anyway, it's been nice exposure. The addresses are: http://www.napster.com http://artist.napster.com For Stars did a wonderful show at the Du Nord although I felt like exterminating about a third of the audience yacking away. Lloyd Cole was fun (he's nicer than his lyrics let on) and Jonathan Richman was...well Jonathan Richman, the highlight was a very funny rendition of Pablo Picasso. Meanwhile the recording is chugging along oscillating between studios, analog/digital, etc. etc. Hope to see you all soon, Yuji Oniki - -- brianna bradley web designer, web ops http://namesecure.com IT ALL STARTS WITH A WEB ADDRESS tel: 925.609.1101 x206 fax: 925.609.1112 "The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing." Cole's Axiom http://startrekonice.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:04:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dot com killed the gargage band star On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 MarkWStaples@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/23/01 4:34:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > bbradley@namesecure.com writes: > > << San > Francisco's club scene has been harassed since South of Market began its > march toward gentrification in the early '90s. >> > > rebuilding boom. Thanks for sharing this. It seems like the gentrification > of intereresting places to live won't end until every cool place and piece of > Americana is bought up by people with high disposable incomes who see it all > as "investments," leaving those of us more into just the beauty/kinesthetics > and the artistic side of things forced to live away from the very places we > love, and unable to afford these little bits now called "collectibles." It > sucks. Well, it probably does - but I think this view oversimplifies things. (Then, I probably think that about everything...) Artists really ought to unionize and demand payment for their role as real-estate truffle-sniffers - - see Tris McCall's article on that phenomenon at: The fact is, so long as housing costs are solely market-driven, gentrification is inevitable: its only alternative is ghettofication (hey, lookee me! I made up a word...). That is, any currently marginal housing stock is subject either to being gradually populated first by hipsters and artists, then by "urban pioneers" who upgrade and remodel facilities, and then by gentrifiers who view the properties primarily as investments - or to slumlords who let the properties decay and become fire-insurance bait. Given only those two alternatives, I'd much prefer gentrification - although it too has high social costs. (Of course, given other alternatives...but that would make me some sort of wild-eyed, hopelessly archaic socialist type...) I'd daresay one reason NYC was able to maintain an arts community and a tradition of bohemianism was because its rent structure was somewhat insulated from the market via rent control: any number of people would have had to relocate if prices had only followed market rates. I am, of course, talking out of my ass here: anyone with actual, concrete information should correct me, vigorously. (Yes! Mistress!) Another way to look at it: by what mechanism, in a market economy, would you propose might allow the preservation of artists' lofts, rehearsal spaces, etc. - once real estate investors notice the interest among artists and musicians in these spaces, realize that other artists and musicians might want to live in the neighborhood, realize that people with actual money who may be artists and musicians or may just want to hang out with same might also want to live in the neighborhood, and realize that once those two groups (particularly the second) start moving in, much money can be made by buying, developing, and selling such spaces? And it also needs to be said that this phenomenon does result in the improvement of formerly derelict spaces, opportunity for small businesses (cafes, record stores, bookstores, etc. - at least in the early stages, before they're priced out the market), and a general increase in the liveliness of these neighborhoods. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey, whose hypothetical guide to real-estate investment is telephone poles covered with band posters J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Solipsism is its own reward:: __Crow T. Robot__ np: Girls Against Boys _Freakonica_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:30:13 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Shouting Distance >><< Shouting Distance: "Inverness" >> A brilliant a cappella cover of my sometimes >>favorite song of all time. What's the story behind >>this one, anyway? >> >> >>Any of my business how to find this one? Steve? Jer? > >Shouting Distance turns out to be Our Tim Walters wearing yet another of his >many hats. From the Loud-archive, here's the URL: > >http://www.feastofweeds.com/shouting/Inverness.mp3 > >Hey Tim, I can't get it to download more than the first minute or so. What >could be wrong? I'm in the middle of a big web site reorganization and cleaned out everything that wasn't immediately necessary. I've gone ahead and reposted it for now at the URL above. Thanks to all for your interest and compliments! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:03:10 -0600 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dot com killed the gargage band star At 03:04 PM 4/24/01 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >Another way to look at it: by what mechanism, in a market economy, would >you propose might allow the preservation of artists' lofts, rehearsal >spaces, etc. - once real estate investors notice the interest among >artists and musicians in these spaces, realize that other artists and >musicians might want to live in the neighborhood, realize that people with >actual money who may be artists and musicians or may just want to hang out >with same might also want to live in the neighborhood, and realize that >once those two groups (particularly the second) start moving in, much >money can be made by buying, developing, and selling such spaces? And it >also needs to be said that this phenomenon does result in the improvement >of formerly derelict spaces, opportunity for small businesses (cafes, >record stores, bookstores, etc. - at least in the early stages, before >they're priced out the market), and a general increase in the liveliness >of these neighborhoods. This may apply only to my own neighborhood, but my guess is that the reason both residential and commercial rents are still perfectly reasonable here although we're well into the later stages of Jeff's model (artist galleries, rehearsal spaces, renovation of older structures, plenty of cafes, record stores, bookstores, arthouse cinemas, etc.) is that the largest college campus in the state is right here in the center of it. Students need affordable housing, and folks like my landlords, who own nearly every apartment building within about an eight-block radius and a couple dozen houses besides, can make more than enough money renting apartments and houses to grad students or young professionals for reasonable rates. They don't need to jack the prices up, because the demand for housing in this neighborhood is completely inelastic; there are *always* going to be renters, and when one leaves, another will take their place. (Apartments in my building stay vacant for about 45 seconds--unsurprising at $450 a month, utilities paid, for a nice one-bedroom with central heat and air, a pool, laundry room and courtyard, in a gated building that's old enough to have some character but new enough to not be falling apart. A friend of mine pays twice that for a smaller place in a boring, sterile complex up in the Heights.) More to the point, it's unlikely that the demographics of the neighborhood are going to change much. Part of this is simply that some people aren't going to want to live next to a college campus, for whatever reason. (There are times, usually when there's an all-night kegger across the alley, when I agree with them.) But more imortantly, the houses themselves dictate who's going to want to live in them. Almost all the houses around here are stuccos built in the late '40s and early '50s, usually renovated at least once or twice since. (There's a few '20s bungalows a few blocks south of here, too) They're small homes on small lots. Some are one-bedroom, the majority are two-bedroom, and a very few are three-bedroom. Second floors and second bathrooms are both exceedingly rare. The only people who are going to be interested in these houses are singles and childless couples. It would be impossible to have a family in most of these houses--it's hard enough to have a dog. Add that to the campus influences (no reason to sell homes, or raze two stuccos to build one bigger home, if you're already making money hand over fist and will never run out of potential tenants) and you have a neighborhood that's likely permanently stuck in downtown-hipster mode. Overall, though, I think Jeff's theory is about right. S NP: demos for Judee Sill's never-completed third album, circa 1975 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:48:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dot com killed the gargage band star On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Stewart Mason wrote: > This may apply only to my own neighborhood, but my guess is that the reason > both residential and commercial rents are still perfectly reasonable here > although we're well into the later stages of Jeff's model (artist > galleries, rehearsal spaces, renovation of older structures, plenty of > cafes, record stores, bookstores, arthouse cinemas, etc.) is that the > largest college campus in the state is right here in the center of it. You may wish, hope, pray, and otherwise imprecate that landlords in your area do not study the methods of landlords in other college areas that I'm familiar with, such as the east side of Milwaukee near UWM and the area of Madison near campus. Those landlords take some of the reasons you mention (students need housing - note omitted word, no one else will rent the apartments, there's steady demand) and reason that they have a captive rental audience - and so rents are as high as they can go before renters start studying Dead Kennedys tracks. > reasonable rates. They don't need to jack the prices up, because the > demand for housing in this neighborhood is completely inelastic; there are > *always* going to be renters, and when one leaves, another will take their > place. (Apartments in my building stay vacant for about 45 > seconds This is interesting: at least when I was renting in Madison (mid-eighties), demand did fluctuate slightly, according to the ups and downs in the enrollment - and at that time, if you wanted to have a rental for fall (which meant August 15 - that's another joke, campus moving day...), you had to move very quickly, way back in the early part of the year, unless you wanted to rent someone else's basement broom closet. (When we moved to Milwaukee in 1988, I came down 'round about March and asked landlords about openings in mid-August: they looked at me as if I were a five-headed translucent alien asking them to do trigonometry.) > Overall, though, I think Jeff's theory is about right. One factor I didn't mention is the revivability of the housing stock: if stuff is just ugly, falling apart, and of zero intrinsic charm or hipness, then yeah, the interest probably won't be there. I suspect, too, that Stewart's location in the West might be influential: friends of mine who moved west are always surprised at how *new* everything is (1930s is positively *ancient*) - much like East Coasters probably feel about the Midwest, actually. (What, 1880 is *old*?) So maybe there isn't as much hipster cachet in the structures themselves. (What's that? My ass is talking again? Yeesh...) And if I wasn't explicit about it the last post...I was talking only about the way things are in a market economy, not the way I think they should be. Just as war is too important to be left to the generals, housing is too important to be left to the real estate market. - --Jeff, back from a baseball game, where he was surprised to hear the Old 97s' "Time Bomb" over the PA... J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::SCENE 2: ::Aunt Fritzi applies lipstick in the mirror. In the next room, Sluggo ::removes his ever-present cap and blows his nose in a red handkerchief. ::Nancy enters the room and accuses Sluggo of stealing the donuts that ::Aunt Fritzi made for her. Sluggo looks at the clock, which reads 8:54, ::and says he'd better hurry or he'll be late for his trombone lesson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:25:44 -0700 (PDT) From: mweber@library.berkeley.edu (Matthew Weber) Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dot com killed the gargage band star At 11:48 PM 4/24/1, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Stewart Mason wrote: > >> This may apply only to my own neighborhood, but my guess is that the reason >> both residential and commercial rents are still perfectly reasonable here >> although we're well into the later stages of Jeff's model (artist >> galleries, rehearsal spaces, renovation of older structures, plenty of >> cafes, record stores, bookstores, arthouse cinemas, etc.) is that the >> largest college campus in the state is right here in the center of it. > >You may wish, hope, pray, and otherwise imprecate that landlords in your >area do not study the methods of landlords in other college areas that I'm >familiar with, such as the east side of Milwaukee near UWM and the area of >Madison near campus. Those landlords take some of the reasons you mention >(students need housing - note omitted word, no one else will rent the >apartments, there's steady demand) and reason that they have a captive >rental audience - and so rents are as high as they can go before renters >start studying Dead Kennedys tracks. I think the missing ingredient is scarcity. I don't know what kind of demand there is in Albuquerque for housing aside from the student population--maybe not much?--but the Bay Area has several important factors that have exacerbated its housing crisis: 1) the computer industry, which has been in the South Bay region for quite some time now, went through a period of rapid growth a couple of years ago, and though of course there's been a bursting of the bubble, typically real estate prices will stay steady rather than decrease; 2) there is literally nowhere for San Francisco to expand to (or the East Bay either, given that the folks who live in and beyond the hills east of Berkeley & Oakland have finally called a halt to further development there); and 3) current zoning regulations and rampant NIMBYism prevent tall apartment buildings from being built in most area municipalities. The demand for housing has skyrocketed here, and the supply hasn't increased commensurate with it. At the moment the place I live in is up for sale. Who knows who's going to buy it? If it's someone who already owns lots of rental property, then I'm probably safe, but if not, I could be subject to the dreaded owner move-in--and market rates are probably 1.5 to 2 times what I'm paying now. I have serious doubts about my ability to continue to afford living in the Bay Area if this comes to pass--so I'm following this whole rental discussion with great interest. Matt Sometimes we must rise above principle. Jesse Unruh, quoted by Herb Caen ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #50 ******************************