From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V1 #5 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, March 22 2001 Volume 01 : Number 005 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a question - OT [Elizabeth Setler ] [loud-fans] ASCAP [Michael Mitton ] Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and aquestio n - OT [] [loud-fans] The Case of the Robbed DJ ["BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/] RE: [loud-fans] SMOE! CD burning ["BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 F] Re: [loud-fans] schmutzie...new from Mattel [MarkWStaples@aol.com] [loud-fans] frightening images ["BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs"] Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a questi on - OT [MarkWStaples@aol.c] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:01:33 +0800 From: Elizabeth Setler Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a question - OT At 5:25 PM -0500 3/21/01, dmw wrote: >On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aaron Mandel wrote: > >> i wonder if the difficulty, normally, is that someone who takes reasonable >> precautions can't be punished for another person's theft; that is, if you >> steal a CD and then sell it on ebay, the cops can't come and take the CD >> from the web-buyer. i'm still really curious if stolen property that > >can't they? I was under the impression that they could. i'm sure they >don't routinely, but I think that's only because the comparitively low >value of the item and the difficulty of proving that it is the *same* cd >that was stolen make it not worth it. Isn't "receiving stolen property" >generally criminal itself? They can, although I'm having trouble imagining how they'd track an individual CD down on eBay. When my apartment was robbed 5 years ago, the only thing I got back was my Mac. And the way I got it back was that someone had bought it through a classified ad, looked at some stuff the thief hadn't bothered to erase from the hard drive and figured out that it was stolen. That person then asked me to refund what he'd paid for it. I mentioned this to the good cop working my case (I actually had a good cop and a bad cop!), and he informed the person that he was legally obliged to return it or he'd be facing criminal charges. The guy then harassed me with creepy phone calls and visits to my office until I again took advantage of having a good cop. So that was fun. I've downloaded songs from my stolen music collection from Napster. Not a whole lot - but say there's only one song I really want to hear from a CD I already paid $35- $100 for from some faraway land. I'll never have the money to replace the whole collection, and I might not be up to that one anytime soon, so I'll download it and listen a couple times to kill my craving. I always feel vaguely guilty about it, though, so I'm finding this discussion interesting! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:20:16 -0700 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TAPE SWAP REVIEW: Enchanted Racket, Volume I: Its A Gas! At 01:36 PM 3/21/01 -0800, Jeff Brenneman wrote: >TV Dream  Young Fresh Fellows. This is the first cut that I dont care for. >Is this typical of their sound? They sound like a lot of San Diego ska bands >which I find to be a worn out style. I have found myself self taping my feet >to this lately after repetitive listens. This is from their 1987 album THE MEN WHO LOVED MUSIC, and no, it's not terribly representative, in that they don't normally use horns. Given the songs you really liked off of this tape, it seems likely that you'd like the Fellows. >Your New Boy  You Were Spiraling. I love that name for a group! The >production seems very unprofessional. Is this an unsigned, local group. Much >potential! The Middle Eastern feel is quite nifty. I bet these guys played >the heck out of their Ben Folds Five CDs! You Were Spiraling is a New Jersey band who are semi-proteges of They Might Be Giants. They were the opening act the last time I saw TMBG and they had an EP released through John Flansburgh's Hello Recording Club (which I think is the one with "Your New Boy"), plus another couple albums besides that. They've been around for years, but I think they're just a part-time project. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:48:57 -0800 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a question - OT dmw wrote: > On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, John Swartzentruber wrote: > > 2. When you buy a CD, are you buying the physical medium, or are you > > buying the music? If the latter, how is it stealing to obtain what you > > already own? If the former, why do CDs cost so much more than blank > > discs? > > In a legal sense, you are buying the physical medium, which contains > music. You are certainly NOT buying the music -- your purchase of the CD > entitles you to listen to the CD, but not to broadcast/perform the music > therein publically, re-recorded the music, distribute the music, > listen to that music for free on any jukebox, etc. But if Brianna's friend is a DJ, there must have been public broadcasts or performances of the music on those CDs, which violates of the purchase agreement. Also, if the goth/industrial clubs where he's DJing are charging a cover, then someone is making money from the music on those CDs, which would also be a no-no, right? How does that work? Do dance clubs pay flat BMI/ASCAP fees as live music clubs, or do they need to log everything they play, like a radio station does? I don't normally go out to the sort of places where I have to pay to listen to recorded music, but I go to lots of live performances where there are "public performances" of recorded music in between the bands, and most of the time it's all different songs by different artists, so it probably isn't the original records, unless it's a bunch of CDs on shuffle play, so maybe all these clubs breaking the law?? >On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aaron Mandel wrote: > >> i wonder if the difficulty, normally, is that someone who takes reasonable >> precautions can't be punished for another person's theft; that is, if you >> steal a CD and then sell it on ebay, the cops can't come and take the CD >> from the web-buyer. i'm still really curious if stolen property that > >can't they? I was under the impression that they could. i'm sure they >don't routinely, but I think that's only because the comparitively low >value of the item and the difficulty of proving that it is the *same* cd >that was stolen make it not worth it. Isn't "receiving stolen property" >generally criminal itself? I had about 50-60 CDs stolen from my apartment in 1993 (everything from A-M -- I had many fewer CDs back then), and a few days after the theft I took a list of all my stolen discs to a tiny used CD store a few blocks from where I lived.. Even though the store had almost all of the titles in their "new arrival" bin, there was no way I could prove that the 50-60 discs I was missing were the same ones they just got in, so the police said the manager of the store wasn't obligated to give them back to me! They did let me buy most of them back for their cost (around 50% of the regular used price), but I still thought they were jerking me around, so I vowed never to set foot in their crummy store ever again! The store went out of business just a few months after that.. which served them right, I think! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:58:32 -0800 From: bbradley@namesecure.com Subject: RE: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a questio n - OT hoo boy. dana: <> heh heh. ok. i see the problem. but in case i didn't, Aaron: <> exactly. he's no more a supporter of pirated tunes than anyone here, but he has to make a living, and right now, that is hte most expedient way to create a functional collection until he can replace the actual cds. who in their right mind would dj with mp3s? that's nto the long term plan. he'll probably end up buying new/used copies of what he had, unless it gets donated. dana again: <> the dj is now being given *copies* of the music by its owner dana again: <> and he is not making them - other people are from their own cds. john: <> let's send that to RIAA. dennis: <> wait, no. let's send it to PG&E. and in case it wasn't clear, he didn't use any MP3s prior to this mess. doug: <> ow. ok, my head is starting to hurt. dana gets logical on our ass: <> yeah, but seriously. really. what's the difference - what if he was going to make copies this weekend to back everything up, and whoops! it's all gone now. there would still be copies, he still paid his money to the man. aaron: <> it would seem to me that you must not be. what if i stole a car from you and got in a hit and run with it. is it your fault? no. it's mine. i hope.... and then doug said a lot of good stuff. sorry about your 900 cds. and sorry about elizabeth's apartment. that sucks. been there. what a lively discussion! here's something to add to the mix: HE'S A DJ - which means he uses this music for profit - to make his living. (uh-oh - a whole new ball of wax...) and most djs in the clubs i frequent use their personal collections. i'm sure that's a big legal issue, yes? brianna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:59:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a question - OT On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Steve Holtebeck wrote: > But if Brianna's friend is a DJ, there must have been public broadcasts > or performances of the music on those CDs, which violates of the > purchase agreement. Also, if the goth/industrial clubs where he's DJing > are charging a cover, then someone is making money from the music on > those CDs, which would also be a no-no, right? How does that work? Do > dance clubs pay flat BMI/ASCAP fees as live music clubs, or do they need > to log everything they play, like a radio station does? I think music clubs pay a yearly ASCAP/BMI fee to take care of any and all music played in the club, from CD changers to DJs. I can't believe we're dragging this out. Seems so petty & pointless. The guy got ripped off, and people are helping him. I doubt he'll keep the CD-Rs if & when he gets his collection back, so I think of it as a sort of loan, and it *is* my right to lend something I own to someone. Y'all should chill. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:37:59 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and aquestion - OT Steve Holtebeck wrote: > > But if Brianna's friend is a DJ, there must have been public broadcasts > or performances of the music on those CDs, which violates of the > purchase agreement. Also, if the goth/industrial clubs where he's DJing > are charging a cover, then someone is making money from the music on > those CDs, which would also be a no-no, right? How does that work? Do > dance clubs pay flat BMI/ASCAP fees as live music clubs, or do they need > to log everything they play, like a radio station does? i have read that clubs are supposed to pay a fee, and i had thought it was a flat BMI/ASCAP fee. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:52:07 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a questio n - OT I can't believe we're dragging this out. Seems so petty & pointless. The guy got ripped off, and people are helping him. I doubt he'll keep the CD-Rs if & when he gets his collection back, so I think of it as a sort of loan, and it *is* my right to lend something I own to someone. Y'all should chill. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only reason I brought this up was out of annoyance that someone who refused to use mp3's due to his moral stance would suddenly reverse himself when it was expedient. And, as has now been pointed out about five million times, it *is not* your right to lend a CD in the manner that your referring to, if you're referring ot legal rights. Why don't his good hearted friends lend him their CDs and keep the mp3s (which is legal, by the way)? I'm sure that he's such a wonderful person that he'd return the CDs when the time came. Wouldn't he?? brianna: exactly. he's no more a supporter of pirated tunes than anyone here, but he has to make a living, and right now, that is hte most expedient way to create a functional collection >>>>>>>>>>> He's obviously more of a supporter of pirated tunes than I am. And I'm unaware of a constitutional right to violate the law as long as it abetts your career as a dj. brianna: the dj is now being given *copies* of the music by its owner >>>>>>>>>>> I think that it's been explained a number of times now that the owner of the CD does not own the song, and does not have distribution rights. Brianna: in case it wasn't clear, he didn't use any MP3s prior to this mess. >>>>>>>> Is that supposed to count in his favor now that he *is* using them? Brianna: yeah, but seriously. really. what's the difference - what if he was going to make copies this weekend to back everything up, and whoops! it's all gone now. >>>>>>> Life is full of what-if's. Theft, pretty much by definition, causes harm. We seem to think here that theft of CDs is exempt from this because when you buy a CD it includes an mp3 insurance policy stating that if anything happens to the CD, you're covered. If only the whole world worked like that!!! Why exactly do we think that record companies should foot the bill for a crime that didn't involve them. For full disclosure, I own 5 illegal mp3s (from a Brian Eno bootleg). I don't, however, pretend that they're not illegal, and if the cops ever come after me, I will honestly and uprightly send them to Joe's house to arrest him for distributing them. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:09:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a questio n - OT On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Dana L Paoli wrote: > The only reason I brought this up was out of annoyance that someone who > refused to use mp3's due to his moral stance would suddenly reverse > himself when it was expedient. And, as has now been pointed out about > five million times, it *is not* your right to lend a CD in the manner > that your referring to, if you're referring ot legal rights. Why don't > his good hearted friends lend him their CDs and keep the mp3s (which is > legal, by the way)? I'm sure that he's such a wonderful person that he'd > return the CDs when the time came. Wouldn't he?? Where did you get the idea that he had some moral problem with MP3s? Most likely he wouldn't use them because they sound bad. > He's obviously more of a supporter of pirated tunes than I am. Unless, as the paragrpah below reflects, it suits your purposes. You were none too shy about taking the CD I offered you, so maybe you should get the hell off your high horse on this one. > For full disclosure, I own 5 illegal mp3s (from a Brian Eno bootleg). I > don't, however, pretend that they're not illegal, and if the cops ever > come after me, I will honestly and uprightly send them to Joe's house to > arrest him for distributing them. Don't expect any more offers of kindness, then. I'm not sure what crawled up your ass about this - a guy gets ripped off and asks for help from some friends, and you go batshit - but I doubt you'll be getting any help from anyone on this list should you be in the same position. J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:57:55 -0500 From: Dana L Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a questio n - OT Where did you get the idea that he had some moral problem with MP3s? >>>>>>>>>> Brianna stated this in her initial message. > He's obviously more of a supporter of pirated tunes than I am. Unless, as the paragrpah below reflects, it suits your purposes. You were none too shy about taking the CD I offered you, so maybe you should get the hell off your high horse on this one. >>>>>>>> I have five. He's headed towards thousands. Ergo, he's more of a supporter. Lest anyone wonder about the sordid details, I asked for a CD of five unreleased songs that I already owned on a vinyl bootleg, and traded an original CD for them. I expect that I'll have to answer for that when I run for public office. Don't expect any more offers of kindness, then. I'm not sure what crawled up your ass about this - a guy gets ripped off and asks for help from some friends, and you go batshit - but I doubt you'll be getting any help from anyone on this list should you be in the same position. >>>>>>>>> I pay for apartment insurance, which covers me in case of theft. It costs about $250 a year, and one robbery will convince a person that it's a good idea. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:10:15 -0600 From: steve Subject: [loud-fans] SMOE Secret Masters Of Ecto, I'm thinking. - - Steve __________ Well, Jesus ain't no astronaut And Buddah, he's no fool Cathedral bells don't ring in hell 'cos cats down there don't think that's cool. - Bill Nelson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:22:35 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Mitton Subject: [loud-fans] ASCAP Steve asks: > those CDs, which would also be a no-no, right? How does that work? Do > dance clubs pay flat BMI/ASCAP fees as live music clubs, or do they need > to log everything they play, like a radio station does? As has been said, dance clubs pay a flat fee, and it doesn't matter where the CDs come from because the fee covers the performance. That is, the ASCAP fees would still cover playing the music whether the CDs are legal or illegal copies. While radio stations do need to log everything they play, they also pay a flat fee for a blanket license. Different stations may get charged different amounts based on how much and what type of music they play, but the logs radio stations have to keep really have to do with distributing money to artists. As far as I know (which is only ASCAP, not BMI), basically everyone pays flat fees for everything. There are no per-song charges (unless, of course, you license through the artists directly). - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:01:29 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and aquestio n - OT Dana L Paoli wrote: > > Lest anyone wonder about the sordid details, I asked for a CD > of five unreleased songs that I already owned on a vinyl bootleg how do you feel about owning a vinyl bootleg of otherwise unreleased songs? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:12:05 -0600 (CST) From: "BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs" Subject: [loud-fans] The Case of the Robbed DJ But first, a folk song: If I had a hammer I'd hammer in the morning I'd hammer in the evening But only with nails I bought myself Never with nails anyone else bought Cuz the HIAA* sez I've got no right to those nails... (* Hammering Industry Association of America) A couple of points: yes, if someone is driving your car which they've stolen, moving violations are their responsibilities. Parking violations, though, are yours (although I'll bet you could get them dismissed). And, regarding vehicle registration, at least here in Wisconsin I ran into an interesting dilemma. A friend asked me to take care of her car while she visited her family in California. At the time I had no care, so of course I was willing. She had neglected, however, to inform me that the car's registration was expired. A cop noticed the lack of the appropriate sticker, and gave *me* the ticket. I tried to explain that it wasn't my car, but I was told the violation was *driving* an unregistered vehicle, not having a vehicle unregistered. Also: I find it interesting that such care is taken that no stray copies of CDs benefit anyone but record companies - while record companies themselves are rather profligate with promos, giveaways, etc. (or so their books say - when artists ask what happened to their share of the profits when the record sold X million...). And the weirdest moment of the whole deal (well, maybe not...but the weirdest moment I'm pointing out): at one point, Dana made some statement like "why should the record industry pay the bill when someone suffers from a crime?" The logic is, apparently, that if you once owned a CD, you are obligated, in perpetuity, to replace any broken, lost, stolen, or malfunctioning versions of same, lest the record companies "lose" money on your non-purchase. (Fernando will most likely replace those CDs - but who's to say that one or two turned out to suck, and he never used those, and so will not replace the stolen copies?) By this logic, priests are abortionists, since in choosing celibacy, they are not giving the opportunity of birth to all those babies they *could* produce. Okay, that's not exact: more like, unless you're having sex *right now* you're killing babies. What shall we do about this problem? (Other than stop typing.) Presumably, such creative accounting is how record companies "lose" money - - for the artists, not for themselves - on records that sell large quantities: "Oh, uh, sorry guys - but the album didn't sell as many copies as _Thriller_, so we're taking the difference out of your advance. You owe us $30 billion." Sales that don't happen aren't automatically potential sales: they're *not sales*. So Fernando not immediately running right out and replacing all 900 CDs - before time passes during which he might recover many of them, since used CD stores in the area are on the lookout - - is not costing the record companies a damned thing: he has the complete and utter right to *not* replace those recordings. And using MP3s temporarily doesn't cost record companies anything either. Frankly, I suspect the club's music licensing agreement is a blanket item - - so that his playing them in the clubs (if not at home) would be "paid for" anyway. The club pays $X per month to permit them to play music - I doubt it says anything about whether that music comes from CDs, cassettes, vinyl, 8-tracks, or Edison cylinders. So all of this excavating and tunneling through Mt. Molehill is probably for naught. Okay - as of right now I'm charging everyone $5 for each of my messages you *don't* read. And that includes the ones I don't compose cuz I'm working, sleeping, or trying to make babies so the Pope doesn't hunt me down and make me try to DJ with MP3s of the Vatican Dance Band. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::can you write underwater on liquid paper?:: __Zippy__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:16:47 -0600 (CST) From: "BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] SMOE! CD burning On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Stewart Mason wrote: > Among the other benefits of the noise reduction add-ons in Cool Edit is > that they have a neat little preview function called "Keep only noise," > which you can listen to to see if it's taking out too much actual music > along with the pops and hiss. I second Doug's recommendation. I believe this is what the Boredoms use to mix their albums. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::This is America. People do whatever the fuck they feel like doing.... ::As a result, this country has one of the worst economies in the world. __Neal Stephenson, SNOW CRASH__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:37:56 EST From: MarkWStaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] schmutzie...new from Mattel In a message dated 3/21/01 12:50:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dennis_McGreevy@praxair.com writes: << Aw, ick, man, unpleasant visual. That *is* just plain weird. >> Yeah. Fun with misplaced modifiers. I asked my Chinese friend Wynn (his American name...he's been in the US now for about a year) about what happened when I saw him today...he said that as far as he could tell from the way that I described it that it was inappropriate behavior, so I think my gut instincts were right on this one. - -Mark np Lenola TREAT ME TO SOME LIFE "Well I see split ends are universal" (Julie Brown in EARTH GIRLS ARE EASY) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:40:14 -0600 (CST) From: "BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs" Subject: [loud-fans] frightening images Okay, go to http://www.underwatermoonlight.com/history.html, scroll down a bit to see the first image of Robyn by himself, and then think, geez, he looks just a bit too much like Ashton Kutcher (Kelso on _That '70s Show_). - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::"In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ps: just a thought: we're now talking about non-material sound-storage media such as MP3s and whether they can be a vehicle for theft. I happen to be thinking of a song right now in my head - but I didn't pay for it! Please don't tell the record company... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:50:58 EST From: MarkWStaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a long, sad story, a plea for help, and a questi on - OT In a message dated 3/21/01 5:39:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, ltucker@town.ci.chapel-hill.nc.us writes: << So maybe I'm actually "on" to something here with my perpetual confusions. Has anybody actually seen Dana and Doug at the same place at the same time? -Larry >> Well, if it is any consolation for making that mistake, remember when I called you Dan? Damn black spots in the cerebellum.... - -Mark (who no longer kisses the sky) ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V1 #5 *****************************