From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #829 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, June 7 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 829 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #825 [Mary ] =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = [Betsy ] Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids [Laura O ] Re: =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = ["] RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #826 [Ingrid Lochrenberg ] RE: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 09:23:19 -0700 From: Mary Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #825 Thank you, David & John & Susan for your earlier posts. Thank you for your cogent & lived in responses to Ingrid's queries. I don't buy the rape & violence angle at all, as Joni seems quite clear about standing her ground as a woman, in this song, with newfound respect for the power she sees rising in her. That "chain me with a snake to an Ethiopian wall" is more biblical imagery that Joni employs to mean original sin & that women aren't "good enough" in some men's eyes - namely the men/man in the song. I don't see it is as violence or rape in any form & it doesn't seem to me that Joni's "character" in the song is similarly traumatized. I am also not interested in sussing out the details when Kilauren was born or under what circumstances. The public details are well known & I accept that I don't need to know the personal particulars. I think if songs were to be taken too literally we'd miss the poetry and universal meaning expressed therein, especially Joni's because there is so much imagery in her work along with all the details. She gives us a lot of meat in those songs, so I believe over thinking them can get us away from the original intent. Still, interesting discussion. David, thanks for the interpretation of the petrified wood process lines.....I'd never thought of it in that way before. Makes a lot of sense. in the way it is sung in the song. In truth, I'd not really given the lines much thought except that the imagery was awesome so this long discussion finally brought something to me. Thanks. GREETINGS FROM THE TRIPLE M Down a gravel road, where the barb wire meets the sky. MARY M. MORRIS > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 23:14:32 -0400 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #825 > > > JMDL Digest Friday, June 6 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 825 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: Don't Interrupt the Sorrow [David Marine ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 23:14:07 -0400 > From: David Marine > Subject: Re: Don't Interrupt the Sorrow > > I think it's clear that the Anima is rising in Joni (or the female character in the song). So to me this line means that his dismissal of her Anima power cuts her down from proud, tall timber to cold stone with just a "so what?". > > I know Jung uses Anima to describe the feminine archetype of the unconscious mind (the yin to the yang), but I think Joni is using it to describe the spirit rising. Given the religious imagery in the song, the part about "wash my guilt of Eden, wash and balance me" may be related to the prayer "Anima Christi": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_Christi > > Just my two cents. > > At least we cleared up long ago "your notches, liberation doll"! > > David > > On Jun 6, 2014, at 6:29 PM, JMDL Digest wrote: > > > > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 16:29:17 -0600 > > From: Lori Renee Fye > > Subject: Re: Don't interrupt the sorrow > > > > Here's my take on "petrified wood process": > > > > He says "Anima rising > > So what > > Petrified wood process > > Tall timber down to rock" > > > > It takes a VERY LONG time for wood to petrify. So "He" says, "So what?" to > > the "anima" concept that men will get in touch with their feminine side > > anytime soon, or that anything else will change anytime soon enough to > > matter, at least to him. He's fine with the status quo. > > > > Lori > > > > ------------------------------ > > ------- > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2014 #825 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 08:05:23 -0700 From: Betsy Blue Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = Some excellent writing in this piece. I don't have a PhD, so I'll just say "I like the stuff abouts the birds." http://www.criticsatlarge.ca/2013/11/method-acting-joni-mitchells-blue-period.html?m=1 Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2014 08:24:38 -0500 From: Laura O Subject: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids Ingrid says: "When I look at Kilauren I don't see the spark that Joni has...particularly around here eyes. I think one could get a million blonde models who look like Joni (even if they don't look like a gypsy dancer)." Personally, and I know I'm in the minority, I don't see any obvious resemblance to Joni & Kilauren facially or singing voice....altho they do talk alike (listening to videos of Kilauren on JM.com) and both paint. Having no inside knowledge or seeing 'proof' as does Susan, I would be skeptical. I just don't see it. When I'm STRAINING to see a resemblance.....to me her face favors Brad. But each of Kilauren's kids resembling each of her HER parents is striking, to my eyes. I can see it immediately. They're like mini images of the two. Brad has that certain intense look about his eyes. Marlin has the same. Daisy, well, she just looks like a young Joni in the face and eyes and hair. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall and see if they have similar inherit mannerisms and/or tendencies. Marlin is in the hat & Brad is next to him (enlarge the photo on your screen) http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2677&from=search Brad (click on the photo to enlarge) http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2781&from=search Laura From:owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Ingrid Lochrenberg Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 10:06 AM To: Laura O;joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids For sure they might seem to resemble their grandparents, but people see such different things in faces. I mean, Taylor Swift was said, here on JMDL, to 'look' like Joni. When I look at Kilauren I don't see the spark that Joni has...particularly around here eyes. I think one could get a million blonde models who look like Joni (even if they don't look like a gypsy dancer). My point was merely that she doesn't have the moon anywhere near Cancer...so I have also thought if Joni meant: "borne (not born) with the moon, in Cancer...since she married Brad in June and soon after had to give up her daughter. Just another thought. I find Joni's words quite revealing of stuff that never get discussed. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 10:47:55 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = Thanks, Betsy. I enjoyed this. Good read. Mark in Seattle - -----Original Message----- From: Betsy Blue Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 8:05 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = Some excellent writing in this piece. I don't have a PhD, so I'll just say "I like the stuff abouts the birds." http://www.criticsatlarge.ca/2013/11/method-acting-joni-mitchells-blue-period.html?m=1 Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 09:17:01 +0200 From: Ingrid Lochrenberg Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #826 It's good enough for me too! > Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 03:00:03 -0400 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #826 > > > JMDL Digest Saturday, June 7 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 826 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > RE: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids ["Susan E. McNamara" RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #802 [Ingrid Lochrenberg ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 14:35:01 +0000 > From: "Susan E. McNamara" > Subject: RE: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids > > When I was working on the website with Wally Breese in 1997, we received an email from Kilauren's boyfriend, which Wally then substantiated with several biographical indicators that Kilauren provided. He then sent the emails to Joni's management. Within a couple of weeks, Kilauren met Joni in LA and all joy broke loose. Joni had photos of Kilauren from before the adoption and Kilauren had baby pictures which she matched with Joni's ... Kilauren also had information from her adoption papers (which were released when she was 30) that matched with Joni. I think at this point everyone agrees that Kilauren is Joni's natural daughter. Joni never married Brad McMath ... they were dating during art school ... and the story is that since Brad did not support Joni after she told him she was pregnant, so she decided to give Kilauren up for adoption, because she was very poor. At the time she was playing ukulele in coffee houses and working in a department store. She later marri! > ed Chuck Mitchell. Pictures, likenesses, and horoscopes aside, I think if Joni believes and knows that Kilauren is her daughter, that's good enough for me. :-) > > Susan Tierney McNamara > email: sem8@cornell.edu > > > - -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Ingrid Lochrenberg > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 10:06 AM > To: Laura O; joni@smoe.org > Subject: RE: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids > > For sure they might seem to resemble their grandparents, but people see such different things in faces. I mean, Taylor Swift was said, here on JMDL, to 'look' like Joni. When I look at Kilauren I don't see the spark that Joni has...particularly around here eyes. I think one could get a million blonde models who look like Joni (even if they don't look like a gypsy dancer). > > My point was merely that she doesn't have the moon anywhere near Cancer...so I have also thought if Joni meant: "borne (not born) with the moon, in Cancer...since she married Brad in June and soon after had to give up her daughter. Just another thought. I find Joni's words quite revealing of stuff that never get discussed. > > > > Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 08:25:13 -0500 > > From: aptakisic101@gmail.com > > To: joni@smoe.org; low-tide@outlook.com > > Subject: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids > > > > Ingrid, > > > > When I see pictures of Joni's grandkids I can't help but wonder if > > when > Kilauren > > looks at her children she sees both of her parents. To me Marlin > > looks SO > much > > like Brad and Daisy looks SO much like Joni I wouldn't even ask for > > DNA > proof! > > It's quite amazing and makes one appreciate the intricacy of the genes > > we > carry. > > > > Anyone else notice the striking resemblences?? > > > > Laura > > > > ******************************** > > > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 17:19:20 +0200 > > From: Ingrid Lochrenberg > > Subject: Joni' daughter > > > > She has said that her birthday is on the 19th of February and that > > there > were > > no photographs of her before the age of 8 months, supposing there were > > some since then. She has also said that Joni gave her daughter up for > > adoption > in > > 1965 at that age, so this rules out a birth on the 19th Febuary 1964. > > She > was > > born in Toronto. On the 19th February 1965 the moon was nowhere near > Cancer. > > > > Perhaps Kilauren took some birthday given to her by her adoptive parents? > Or > > perhaps Joni got sick and tired of being contacted by all and sundry > claiming > > and wanting to be her daughter, and then made an arrangement with > > Kilauren, who had been a model, to pose as her daughter so that she > > could continue > her > > search in private. > > > > I suppose this sounds slightly disrespectful, but it is worth taking > > note > of: > > no moon in Cancer on Kilauren's birthday. Or perhaps the moon was new > > when Kilauren was born in June of the preceding year , 8 months > > prior to February, so that she was born with the moon (the new moon) , > > in Cancer, > since > > there ? "Moons, and Junes, and ....." > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 21:09:18 +0200 > From: Ingrid Lochrenberg > Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #802 > > There are many contradictions showing up in the 'fact's around Joni's > daughter, specifically where the dates are concerned.....I wouldn't say that > joni discovered that she was thee months pregnant in autumn and that she could > then give birth in February already..... > > I suspect that Joni's lyrics refer to a far different reality (for her) than > what comes across on the surface. Thinking of all the romantic references... > > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 14:55:07 -0400 > > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > > Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #802 > > > > > > JMDL Digest Tuesday, June 3 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 802 > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > > -------- > > =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IE5ldyBMaWJyYXJ5IGl0ZW06IEpvbmkgTWl0Y2hlbGw6IOKAm A==?= > =?UTF-8?B?UHJlYWNoaW5nIFBsYXRpdHVkZXMgdG8gdGhlIENvbnZlcnRlZOKAmQ==?= [] > > Joni' daughter [Ingrid Lochrenberg > ] > > =?UTF-8?Q?New_Library_item:_Joni_Mitchell:_=E2=80=98Pr?= > =?UTF-8?Q?eaching_Platitudes_to_the_Converted=E2=80=99?= [] > > Re: Joni' daughter ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" > ] > > my new CD available soon (NJC) [Anne Sandstrom > ] > > Re: IFTKOMS and C&S vs. HOSL ["Susan E. McNamara" > ] > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 11:12:30 -0400 > > From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com > > Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IE5ldyBMaWJyYXJ5IGl0ZW06IEpvbmkgTWl0Y2hlbGw6IOKAm > A==?= =?UTF-8?B?UHJlYWNoaW5nIFBsYXRpdHVkZXMgdG8gdGhlIENvbnZlcnRlZOKAmQ==?= > > > > LOL, methinks the reviewer was a bit too highbrow for this show. > > > > Bob > > > > NP: Joe Henry, "Swayed" > > > > > > > > From: TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com > > To: joni@smoe.org, > > Date: 06/03/2014 10:56 AM > > Subject: New Library item: Joni Mitchell: ?Preaching Platitudes to > > the Converted? > > Sent by: owner-joni@smoe.org > > > > > > > > Title: Joni Mitchell: bPreaching Platitudes to the Convertedb > > Publication: New York Herald Tribune > > Date: 1970.1.19 > > > > http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2793 > > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > > - ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 17:19:20 +0200 > > From: Ingrid Lochrenberg > > Subject: Joni' daughter > > > > She has said that her birthday is on the 19th of February and that there > were > > no photographs of her before the age of 8 months, supposing there were some > > since then. She has also said that Joni gave her daughter up for adoption > in > > 1965 at that age, so this rules out a birth on the 19th Febuary 1964. She > was > > born in Toronto. On the 19th February 1965 the moon was nowhere near > Cancer. > > > > Perhaps Kilauren took some birthday given to her by her adoptive parents? > Or > > perhaps Joni got sick and tired of being contacted by all and sundry > claiming > > and wanting to be her daughter, and then made an arrangement with Kilauren, > > who had been a model, to pose as her daughter so that she could continue > her > > search in private. > > > > I suppose this sounds slightly disrespectful, but it is worth taking note > of: > > no moon in Cancer on Kilauren's birthday. Or perhaps the moon was new when > > Kilauren was born in June of the preceding year , 8 months prior to > > February, so that she was born with the moon (the new moon) , in Cancer, > since > > there ? "Moons, and Junes, and ....." > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 08:51:46 -0600 (MDT) > > From: TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com > > Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?New_Library_item:_Joni_Mitchell:_=E2=80=98Pr?= > =?UTF-8?Q?eaching_Platitudes_to_the_Converted=E2=80=99?= > > > > Title: Joni Mitchell: bPreaching Platitudes to the Convertedb > > Publication: New York Herald Tribune > > Date: 1970.1.19 > > > > http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2793 > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 19:53:09 +0100 (BST) > > From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" > > Subject: Re: Joni' daughter > > > > Ingrid, > > > > > > It may well be that the lyrics to Little Green contain some > > poetic licence. A tragic story for both of them. The alternative > > birthday sounds credible though, but why bother, as any assessment of > > child development could be skewed. An interesting point to consider > > though definitely. > > > > The idea of having an actor to play people in her > > personal life has set off my imagination though, in a surreal way. Many > > of her boyfriends could have been replaced with actors without > > addictions, or more prosiac bad habits. Against this the classic songs > > would have had less angst. The cost of hiring them would have been > > cheaper than the drug habits of the originals by far:-) > > > > John > > > > >---- > > Original Message---- > > >From: low-tide@outlook.com > > >Date: 03/06/2014 15: > > 19 > > >To: "joni@smoe.org" > > >Subj: Joni' daughter > > > > > >She > > has said that her birthday is on the 19th of February and that there > > were > > >no photographs of her before the age of 8 months, supposing there > > were some > > >since then. She has also said that Joni gave her daughter up > > for adoption in > > >1965 at that age, so this rules out a birth on the > > 19th Febuary 1964. She was > > >born in Toronto. On the 19th February 1965 > > the moon was nowhere near Cancer. > > > > > >Perhaps Kilauren took some > > birthday given to her by her adoptive parents? Or > > >perhaps Joni got > > sick and tired of being contacted by all and sundry claiming > > >and > > wanting to be her daughter, and then made an arrangement with Kilauren, > > > > >who had been a model, to pose as her daughter so that she could > > continue her > > >search in private. > > > > > >I suppose this sounds slightly > > disrespectful, but it is worth taking note of: > > >no moon in Cancer on > > Kilauren's birthday. Or perhaps the moon was new when > > >Kilauren was > > born in June of the preceding year , 8 months prior to > > >February, so > > that she was born with the moon (the new moon) , in Cancer, since > > > > >there ? "Moons, and Junes, and ....." > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 10:51:15 +0000 (UTC) > > From: Anne Sandstrom > > Subject: my new CD available soon (NJC) > > > > At long last, my CD "Monochrome" will be available soon. It should be on > > cdbaby this week. In the meantime, you can hear clips on my web site at > > www.annesandstrom.com. Oh, and I know I said NJC, but notice what famous > > street the cover photo was taken on... lots of love,Anne > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 20:57:31 +0000 > > From: "Susan E. McNamara" > > Subject: Re: IFTKOMS and C&S vs. HOSL > > > > Yes Garret, I agree with you about MOA ... Actually I said Rainy Night House > thinking of the MOA version although I guess I made it sound like it was on > FTR ... Ever since I heard Mutts of the Planet do RNH with the MOA arrangement > I prefer that version ... Plus it does give the song the feel that it could > have been off C&S! :-) > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On May 29, 2014, at 3:24 PM, "Garret" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > > > I think I would have to work MoA into your scheme. For me, that's > > > essential listening (well, for a few of us here I'd say). It sort of > ties > > > things up in my mind. It ties together various musical threads from the > > > preceding albums and works in the new band. I'm still a bit in awe that > she > > > did not load it with C&S songs. In a sense, I see it as a companion to > C&S > > > actually, so this works well. I also think her voice may be at it's most > > > appealing for me on MoA over all other albums. > > > > > > I see where you are going with C&S and HOSL being connected, In France is > a > > > definite bridge. However, in my mind, HOSL is more of a transitional > album > > > (and what a transition!) that allows for the sonic shift that is Hejira. > > > The door then opens for DJRD which I always pair with Mingus and S&L more > > > than Hejira funnily. > > > > > > Like you, Sue, I love the progression across these albums. No other > artists > > > progression fascinates me as much (hopefully that will redeem me for my > > > Joni criticism a few weeks back;-) > > > > > > I think I will have to listen to C&S and HOSL together now, thanks:) > > > GARRET > > > > > > NP - Eddi Reader, Back the Dogs (from her latest album - I think so many > of > > > you guys would love this) > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 1:48 PM, wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi Laura - glad you heard "Help Me", I agree it's always like a cool > > >> summer breeze unto my ears when I hear that guitar intro. Unfortunately > I > > >> did NOT hear Joni on the radio yesterday so my streak ended, but if we > > >> want to talk a JMDL streak, we are still going strong with 4 days thanks > > >> to your report. Let's see who hears Joni on the radio TODAY and maybe we > > >> can keep the streak alive. > > >> > > >> Bob > > >> > > >> NP: Aretha Franklin, "Baby I Love You" > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> The information transmitted is intended only for the person > > >> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > > >> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > > >> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > > >> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > > >> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > > >> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > > >> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > >> > > >> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > > >> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of JMDL Digest V2014 #802 > > ***************************** > > > > ------- > > To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. > > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > > ------- > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2014 #826 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 10:35:04 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: RE: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids since she married Brad in June and soon after had to give up her daughter.> She never married Brad McMath...perhaps you have him mixed up with Chuck Mitchell? I believe that he went to California, hearing that everything was warmer there. Bob NP: The Dead Weather, "Rough Detective" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2014 #829 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------