From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #2020 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, April 16 2015 Volume 2014 : Number 2020 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Fountain of sorrow/Now Joni and Laura ["Gary Z." ] Re: Fountain of sorrow [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 15:06:31 -0400 From: "Gary Z." Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow/Now Joni and Laura From what I understand, I think that Laura Nyro's influence was responsible for Joni really getting into playing the piano again. I know that the only quote I recall was something to the effect of Joni saying "Laura Nyro you can lump me in with, I looked to her and took direction from her." (or something close to that). I also remember someone asking Joni about Laura and her only saying "Well, Laura was a strange girl...." but nothing more. I think Joni might or could have had a hard time relating to Laura's views of music, in terms of interpreting music in colors and textures; since Laura had been said to have synesthesia; Laura also had very strange idiosyncracies and child-like views of the world and Laura wasn't at all motivated by the music business as her career matured, nor did she really like it much (not liking the music biz WAS something she did have in common with Joni). She really didn't care if her albums were hits or not; played on the radio or not; she was only interested in doing her own thing, and creating music she loved and believed, and thought might touch others. Joni is and was very music business savvy and knew the channels that had to be followed to be successful even if she didn't like them. Example: Joni's smart handling of her publishing. I think David Geffen took a lot of the rights and monies from Laura's early, successful songs when he was her agent. He also wanted her to be the first artist he signed to his new Asylum label and even publicized it before he ever (never) got to actually sign her; and it broke his heart when he found out that Laura re-signed with Columbia and didn't even talk to him about it first. So, I don't think it was a personal problem that Joni had with Laura. Joni really liked Laura's music; it was Laura's odd way of relating to music and life, and just "being a strange girl" that I think Joni was a bit taken aback by. I don't think Joni was ever jealous of Laura. That's my off the top of my head take on Laura and Joni's relationship. If I'm ever so lucky before I go, I'd love to sit with Joni and really ask her about Laura; just because I love them both so much! Best regards, Gary Z. On 4/13/2015 11:27 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: And, quoting Joni: "I always thought the women of song don't get along, and I don't know why that is. I had a hard time with Laura Nyro also, and Joan Baez would have broken my leg if she could, or at least that's the way it felt as a person coming out [on to the music scene]. I never felt that same sense of competition from men." She added: "[Joplin] was very competitive with me, very insecure. She was the queen of rock'n'roll one year and then Rolling Stone made me the queen of rock'n'roll and she hated me after that." Maybe there's more, but this doesn't sound like people hating one another, as much as insecurity leading to envy/jealousy. Joni has also expressed admiration for Laura Nyro. When she says she "had a hard time with Laura," I read that not so much as actually giving each other a hard time but feeling insecure because, in a world dominated by male rock stars, there was a feeling that only a select few women could enter that club. You know how it is when you have a friend or relative whom you love dearly and yet you can still feel jealous of them sometimes for having something you don't have. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/make-war-not-peace-mitchell-attacks-joan-break-your-legs-baez-770878.html Make war, not peace: ... Joni Mitchell and Joan Baez may have strummed their way through the golden age of the peaceniks, p... View on www.independen... Preview by Yahoo ________________________________ From: Marion Leffler To: Mark Scott Cc: Catherine McKay ; jmdl Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Thanks Catherine and Mark for your responses. What I was really wondering was whether the said animosity between Joan B and Joni was actually a fact since on the same album Joan B recorded two Joni-related songs, one about her and one together with her. I totally agree with you that it does not matter who a song is about as long as it has some general emotion or experience that can be shared. Sorry for not having made myself quite clear. Hoping everybody is having a happy weekend, Marion 2015-04-12 2:18 GMT+02:00 Mark Scott : >> I may have heard Jackson's version of the song once or twice. It's the >> Joan Baez version that I also am familiar with. I think if Joan liked the >> song, it wouldn't matter to her who it was about or if it was about anybody >> in particular. The words take on whatever meaning you take away from them. >> I'm not a Jackson Browne fan but the song has some nice turns of phrase and >> I think most people who look back on certain relationships in their lives >> can relate to it. I also think I find more in it now than when I was a >> callow young man of 20 or so. 'Though the future's there for anyone to >> change, still you know it seems it would be easier sometimes to change the >> past'. >> >> Mark in Seattle >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Catherine McKay >> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 4:36 AM >> To: Marion Leffler ; jmdl >> Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow >> >> >> Hello, Marion! >> I had that same Joan Baez album, which is where I first heard the song >> "Fountain of Sorrow." I'm guessing that Joan B just liked the song without >> knowing who it was about or even if it was about a particular person. I'm >> quite sure Jackson Browne didn't reveal who it was about for a long time. >> Sometimes you just like a song for what it says to you without knowing if >> it's based in actual history or just resonates with you somehow. >> From: Marion Leffler >> To: jmdl >> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 3:30 AM >> Subject: Fountain of sorrow >> >> >> I guess you all are aware of the cover Joan Baez did on her album Diamonds >> and Rust. If this song is about Joni, how come JB covered it? As I recall >> Joni and Joan are supposed to be anything but friends, according to this >> list. On the other hand, they did Dida together, very beautifully too. So I >> am left wondering... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 17:10:32 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Fountain of sorrow Yes, I've been troubled by this aspect of Joni's career before, too, but in my own life I've found that just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that the female subsets of the different communities I socialized or worked in fit for me. As she moved out of folk and into the west coast rock scene it seemed she found more women friends, the Ladies of the Canyon, who were more supportive of her because they were not in competition with her. Is there any female role model who Joni looked up to, a mentor in her life? I can't think of one, but I can think of several friends who she visits with and traveled with. Mama Cass, Estrella, later Chaka Khan, although I'm not sure how close she was personally with these women. She was an only child and had no sisters so it would be interesting to find out who she would consider a close sister-like figure in her life. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Anita Gabrielle Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 12:44 PM To: Catherine McKay Cc: Marion Leffler; Mark Scott; jmdl Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Catherine wrote: > > And, quoting Joni: > > "I always thought the women of song don't get along, and I don't know why that is. I had a hard time with Laura Nyro also, and Joan Baez would have broken my leg if she could, or at least that's the way it felt as a person coming out [on to the music scene]. I never felt that same sense of competition from men." Having found myself prepared to battle tooth and nail to defend Joni these past weeks, these kinds of quotes about her difficult relationships with women and, of course, her notorious lack of relationship to feminism, are the points at which I have always felt my most disappointed. Having talked about the amount of projection and transference Joni has to contend with, I wonder if these are Joni's projections? Maybe, maybe not, but it is sad that she has felt so unsupported and, in fact, in competition with other women. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 15:27:22 +0000 (UTC) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Yeah, I guess I knew what you meant, but I don't know the answer. I did find one article that suggests some kind of animosity, but it could all be in jest as well. This is from 2008. It quotes an earlier article with Joni apparently saying,'Baez "would have broken my leg" *if the pair had fallen out while sharing a stage.'* (The * were added by me.) And, quoting Joni: "I always thought the women of song don't get along, and I don't know why that is. I had a hard time with Laura Nyro also, and Joan Baez would have broken my leg if she could, or at least that's the way it felt as a person coming out [on to the music scene]. I never felt that same sense of competition from men." She added: "[Joplin] was very competitive with me, very insecure. She was the queen of rock'n'roll one year and then Rolling Stone made me the queen of rock'n'roll and she hated me after that." Maybe there's more, but this doesn't sound like people hating one another, as much as insecurity leading to envy/jealousy. Joni has also expressed admiration for Laura Nyro. When she says she "had a hard time with Laura," I read that not so much as actually giving each other a hard time but feeling insecure because, in a world dominated by male rock stars, there was a feeling that only a select few women could enter that club. You know how it is when you have a friend or relative whom you love dearly and yet you can still feel jealous of them sometimes for having something you don't have. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/make-war-not-peace-mitchell-attacks-joan-break-your-legs-baez-770878.html Make war, not peace: ... Joni Mitchell and Joan Baez may have strummed their way through the golden age of the peaceniks, p... View on www.independen... Preview by Yahoo ________________________________ From: Marion Leffler To: Mark Scott Cc: Catherine McKay ; jmdl Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Thanks Catherine and Mark for your responses. What I was really wondering was whether the said animosity between Joan B and Joni was actually a fact since on the same album Joan B recorded two Joni-related songs, one about her and one together with her. I totally agree with you that it does not matter who a song is about as long as it has some general emotion or experience that can be shared. Sorry for not having made myself quite clear. Hoping everybody is having a happy weekend, Marion 2015-04-12 2:18 GMT+02:00 Mark Scott : > I may have heard Jackson's version of the song once or twice. It's the > Joan Baez version that I also am familiar with. I think if Joan liked the > song, it wouldn't matter to her who it was about or if it was about anybody > in particular. The words take on whatever meaning you take away from them. > I'm not a Jackson Browne fan but the song has some nice turns of phrase and > I think most people who look back on certain relationships in their lives > can relate to it. I also think I find more in it now than when I was a > callow young man of 20 or so. 'Though the future's there for anyone to > change, still you know it seems it would be easier sometimes to change the > past'. > > Mark in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- From: Catherine McKay > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 4:36 AM > To: Marion Leffler ; jmdl > Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow > > > Hello, Marion! > I had that same Joan Baez album, which is where I first heard the song > "Fountain of Sorrow." I'm guessing that Joan B just liked the song without > knowing who it was about or even if it was about a particular person. I'm > quite sure Jackson Browne didn't reveal who it was about for a long time. > Sometimes you just like a song for what it says to you without knowing if > it's based in actual history or just resonates with you somehow. > From: Marion Leffler > To: jmdl > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 3:30 AM > Subject: Fountain of sorrow > > > I guess you all are aware of the cover Joan Baez did on her album Diamonds > and Rust. If this song is about Joni, how come JB covered it? As I recall > Joni and Joan are supposed to be anything but friends, according to this > list. On the other hand, they did Dida together, very beautifully too. So I > am left wondering... ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2014 #2020 ****************************** ------- To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------