From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #1106 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, August 19 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 1106 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- New Library item: The Many Sides of Joni Mitchell's 'Both Sides Now' [The] In Her Own Words [Laura Stanley ] Her words [Laura Stanley ] RE: Joni's best album vocally [c Karma ] RE: Talking about Joni's voice ... ["Susan E. McNamara" Subject: In Her Own Words It came today!!!! I cracked it open randomly, and Joni was talking about her subconscious mind and how she's always there and how children are too. And how this is why hypnosis didn't have the desired result when she tried it to quit smoking. Yesterday a friend of mine said to another friend of mine about me, "she's such a child." I'm going to read more now. Happy, joyous, and free, Laura Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:23:39 -0500 From: Laura Stanley Subject: Her words "The Book of Dreams"..."it became toilet paper." What book she was talking about? Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:44:03 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: RE: Joni's best album vocally The whole album, actually. I as "performance" third party work, many of her readings are superb given the narrower limits of her vocal instrument. Didn't Dylan remark to her, "Where did you get that VOICE?" It really wan't the timbre so much as how well she used it. CC To: ckarma@hotmail.com CC: joni@smoe.org Subject: re: Joni's best album vocally From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:02:28 -0400 I think that Both Sides Now should get a special mention> The whole album or just the title track? Frankly I think that vocally most of BSN is so-so, and what makes it stand out are Vince Mendoza's arrangements and the orchestration. Bob NP: Drive-By Truckers, "Natural Light" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:23:38 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Talking about Joni's voice ... Plus when she can replicate her own voice into many layered background vocals I guess she doesn't need to enlist as many female vocalists. Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com [mailto:Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:22 AM To: Susan E. McNamara Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Talking about Joni's voice ... But...your point is a good one, wet noodles and dunce caps notwithstanding. Joni has always admittedly preferred to hang out with the boys and if you make a list of the MALE backing vocals she's emplyed you'll find that it's a long one. So it's not that she doesn't want background vocals, just that she doesn't want other women to do them, or something like that. Bob NP: Meshell Ndegeocello, "Conviction" (a nice return to form for her from her new record) - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:51:28 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: RE: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations Travelogue has great moments and less than great moments. Overall it's a B+ for me. "Woodstock" is an amazing arrangement: Lyndon Johnson meets Chief Seattle, "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" is less so. You can't tune an orchestra to her tunings, can you? It's all the same 12 notes.I was never good with theorytoo much math. CC > Subject: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations > From: simon@icu.com > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 18:58:01 -0400 > CC: ckarma@hotmail.com; scjoniguy@yahoo.com > To: joni@smoe.org > > Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > > I think that Both Sides Now should get a special mention > > > > The whole album or just the title track? Frankly I think that vocally most > > of BSN is so-so, and what makes it stand out are Vince Mendoza's > > arrangements and the orchestration. > > Bob, > > Interesting. To me the Vince Mendoza arrangements & orchestration > are the problem with the BOTH SIDES NOW album. > > When Wally and I first heard about Joni recording an album of standards, > we hoped and assumed that it would end up being done with a small jazz > combo. Perhaps Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Larry Klein, Brian Blade > and unspecified others. Alas, it was not to be. > > As for Vince Mendoza and TRAVELOGUE  How / Why would you write orchestrations > of Joni Mitchell songs and not base them on her Guitar Tunings? > > Ive often wondered what TRAVELOGUE would have sounded like if the arrangements > and orchestrations had been done by either Randy Newman or Van Dyke Parks. > > Now THAT! would have been interesting. > > > > andmoreagain, > - - - - - - - - - > simonM > > http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm > > http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/chronology_v4.0.pdf > > http://jonimitchell.com/music/InspiredByJoni_theAlbums.pdf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 17:28:45 +0100 From: Anita Gabrielle Subject: Re: Talking about Joni's voice ... > On 19 Aug 2014, at 15:23, "Susan E. McNamara" wrote: > > Plus when she can replicate her own voice into many layered background vocals > I guess she doesn't need to enlist as many female vocalists. I have been practising since 1968, just in case........bet I'm not alone in that either! :-)) Anita ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 05:34:07 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations Oops. I meant A Case of You from BSN. On Aug 18, 2014, at 9:09 PM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > > In closing, Simon remarks that Mendozas arrangements did not take Jonis tunings into account; Im afraid this makes no sense. The alternate tunings were a way to accomplish non-standard voicings on guitar using easy fingerings. Vince Mendoza, or any arranger for that matter, was not constrained by the guitarists fingerings at all and could easily hear and orchestrate her voicings. They were remarkable for a self-taught guitarist to have discovered but are not anything to stump an advanced jazz arranger. A Case of You from Travelogue is a perfect rendition of the dulcimer voicings that contained unisons and dissonances; Mendoza captured and honored them all. > > all for now, > > Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 09:21:46 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Talking about Joni's voice ... But...your point is a good one, wet noodles and dunce caps notwithstanding. Joni has always admittedly preferred to hang out with the boys and if you make a list of the MALE backing vocals she's emplyed you'll find that it's a long one. So it's not that she doesn't want background vocals, just that she doesn't want other women to do them, or something like that. Bob NP: Meshell Ndegeocello, "Conviction" (a nice return to form for her from her new record) - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:54:43 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: RE: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations Ditto. > From: sem8@cornell.edu > To: beatntrack@att.net > CC: simon@icu.com; joni@smoe.org; ckarma@hotmail.com; scjoniguy@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 11:45:53 +0000 > > Wow Dave ... What an insightful description ... Of Vince Mendoza's vision, Joni's interpretation of her experiences into art, and our own cultural lenses through which we relate to it ... I love the image of Joni at a young age listening to the radio and then translating all those beautiful sounds into a six string guitar and her voice ... Then ultimately recreating her youthful fantasy into Both Sides Now and Travelogue ... It's a full circle image of an amazing artist ... I continue to be fascinated by her whole body of work and still have so much to learn ... > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 19, 2014, at 12:57 AM, "Dave Blackburn" wrote: > > > > Let me say upfront that I consider Vince Mendoza the preeminent orchestrator working today, and one of the reasons is that he is modern while fully in command of past idioms. That is to say, his musical heritage is a set of very diverse influences that a schmaltzy string arranger behind a crooner would be unaware of. Some people hear strings and think Mantovani. Vince Mendoza, however, never stoops to corny writing or even reveals an identifiable Mendoza style. When the Yellowjackets had him orchestrate Greenhouse in 1991 he understood the modern classical jazz fusion they were after, when Bjork had him orchestrate Vespertine in 2001 he drew from her Icelandic choral tradition and her odd fusion of sampling electronica and lush musicals. In each case he grasped the mix of traditions the artist was drawing from and incorporated them in his writing, never imposing his own thing heavy handedly on top of theirs. > > > > On Both Sides Now and Travelogue Joni was paying homage to her parents' era, as she discusses in Painting with Words and Music, referencing Bing Crosbys Swing era in particular. The sweeping romance of 1940s American music was a big part of her young life, no doubt growing up on the remote Canadian prairie with exactly that on the radio. The small combo jazz that Simon describes himself and Wally anticipating was, however, from a different era, the mid to late 50s. By that time Joni was smitten with Rock and Roll (In France the Kiss on Main St.) For her to do a Chet Baker-style record would no doubt have been cool, but it would have been contrary to her experience. Besides, if one wants her to give us small jazz combo music she had already given us Mingus, a small ensemble jazz project par excellence, albeit using modern sounds of the day like the Rhodes piano and electric fretless bass. > > > > She had dabbled with orchestration on Court and Spark, Hissing, and Don Juans Reckless Daughter and in every case her music backed up by orchestra had been artistically triumphant, but by 1998 very few record labels would spring for real strings,and certainly not the LSO; Joni saw a way to deliver her swan song in magnificent luxurious grandeur, something entirely fitting her sense of panache. To my mind, Travelogue and BSN were not at all artistic overreach or a caving to cheap commercialism. In a way they were the natural culmination of everything she had ever reached for: romance, depth, exquisiteness, dimension, poignance. Oddly, in a tragic irony, those of us from the next generation came up with a stigma attached to large format music, feeling in our post-summer-of love-bones that acoustic and small was the honest way. I think this debate we have every so often on the list about these two albums reveals that this pre-disposition persists. In other words, the post-Wood! > > stock generation might view an intimate acoustic record as a fitting farewell, whereas Joni, at nearly seventy one years old, felt like singing in front of the worlds top orchestra, arranged by the hippest arranger in the business, would be more her style, It has been reported that orchestra members, hearing her vocal in their headphones as they recorded, had tears streaming down their cheeks. Were talking union classical players who had played it all; that is a testament in itself. No, Vince Mendoza was the perfect call for this supposed final farewell, a closing of the loop from Jonis childhood influence to her present, and perhaps even a farewell to the mere existence of such expensive accompaniment for anyone. > > > > In closing, Simon remarks that Mendozas arrangements did not take Jonis tunings into account; Im afraid this makes no sense. The alternate tunings were a way to accomplish non-standard voicings on guitar using easy fingerings. Vince Mendoza, or any arranger for that matter, was not constrained by the guitarists fingerings at all and could easily hear and orchestrate her voicings. They were remarkable for a self-taught guitarist to have discovered but are not anything to stump an advanced jazz arranger. A Case of You from Travelogue is a perfect rendition of the dulcimer voicings that contained unisons and dissonances; Mendoza captured and honored them all. > > > > all for now, > > > > Dave ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2014 #1106 ****************************** ------- To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------