From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #840 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, June 25 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 840 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Gathered Light book giveaway contest ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Joni at Luminato [Anita ] Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues, Joni's pronunciation [Laur] Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues [Laura Stanley ] Re: Mispronounced words [Catherine McKay ] Re: Mispronounced words [Laura Stanley ] Re: Mispronounced words [Catherine McKay ] Luminato [Steve Dulson ] Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues ["Mark" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 11:31:59 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: Gathered Light book giveaway contest In case you haven't gotten a copy yet, there is a giveaway contest on Goodreads http://alturl.com/hfaic http://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/show/56881-gathered-light-the-poetry-of-jo ni-mitchell-s-songs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:15:16 -0400 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Mispronounced words Hey List, I'm confused. The pronunciation of clandestine, obviously, is a rhyming thing, like schools and jewels. Her pronunciation of "samba" in Dreamland is the standard English pronunciation. I hear no "d" in Champs-Ilysies, though the syllables are stressed in an odd way. And as for Hejira, I can't see how it's possible for her to mispronounce the name of her own album, any more than it would be possible for her to mispronounce her name. Best, David On Jun 25, 2013, at 3:00 AM, JMDL Digest wrote: > Subject: Mispronounced words > > Dave said: > Joni is probably not a good source for its pronunciation having heard her > way of saying "samba" and "cellulite"! > > Catherine added: > She also says "realtors" strangely. We've had the "clandestine" discussion > before too. > > May I please add the mystery of the 'd' in the middle of Champs Elysees? > And President REEgan? Most of the odd pronunciations, I chalk up to > Canadian (prairie) dialect or song fit, but those bug me. > > Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 08:30:33 +0100 From: Anita Subject: Re: Joni at Luminato I am sure there are many who will see Joni's performances last week and not want to see them, Paul. I can't enjoy seeing Paul McCartney sing anymore. Many seeing the Luminato songs will still seek the soaring notes of STAS or the image of the vulnerable, paper thin icon of Blue. What's so smart about the way this event happened was Joni's interviews saying she would never sing again, yet says she will read a poem. Then at the end of a long tribute to her and in front of her biggest fans, she has a go and does a turn! It was, I think, a master stroke of stage management. I am with Michael on the Woodstock performances,and both are quite different. Joni has gone full circle in the way she tackles the song. From the initial optimism of the piano original came Jon's bleak guitar rendition of the 80s and 90s. In 2013 at Massey Hall we witness some young woman getting the words wrong, people not knowing quite where the song was going, Joni coming in over the trumpet break one night and ,second night, chatting to Kilauren. There were hard won notes, but there was fun, celebration and, then, in moments, came the prayer. That's what I saw. Anita On 24 Jun 2013, at 23:24, Michael quebec wrote: > I hear what you say Paul, but when I see that video, (by the way, which is > different from the Teusday night performance; the piano here is more present, > Herbie ?) I see and hear a complete transformation of that song, it has become > something celebratory, almost like a jazz prayer, and the singers are just > gliding, soaring along with the music as best they can (perhaps a tad > under-rehearsed) grooving to the notion that we are stardust, golden, million > year old carbon, and we've got to get back to the garden. Yes, Joni's voice > has changed, but strangely, her delivery is now stronger and more convincing > than ever. BTW, I had not noticed onstage the teleprompter scrolling the > song's lyrics behind the singers, clearly visible in Catherine's Teusday night > video of the song. > > Michael in QuebecPaul wrote: > > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 16:55:26 -0400 (EDT) > From: Paul Ivice > Subject: Joni at Luminato > > Here's Joni (and group) singing Woodstock along with Kilauren @ Massey > Hall Wednesday night (6/19) > http://jonimitchell.com/library/video.cfm?id=344 > > Laura > > > Those of you who don't hate me already probably will after reading this, but > I > tell it the way I see it. > I found this video to be unwatchable. > I couldn't get past the first verse. > The pace is so damn slow that it drags and, I am sorry to say, her voice is > so > far gone that she now cannot carry a melody. > It hurts me to say it because I've loved Joni's voice, music and songwriting > for decades (1971), but perhaps because of that I could not bear to watch > this > video of a sad, sad performance. > > Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 07:25:37 -0500 From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues, Joni's pronunciation Joni's pronunciation of words that are part of her songs is all part of her art in my opinion. I love her way of saying things. I love her Canadian accent. It was wonderful to hear a whole town of it in Sechelt. I sounded more southern to myself there. In preparation to perform Free Man in Paris at the Jonifest in 2003, I asked a French friend to help me with the pronunciation of Champs ElysC)es. It ain't the same as in the song. I tried to sing it with correct French pronunciation, and it was awkward. Never again will I try to find the "correct" way and deviate from the art. Love, Laura (in Arkansas where everything is fried in the heat) Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Hi Ange, > > Hejira is an Arabic word (it's in the dictionary) which I suspect is Anglicized from its Arabic pronunciation in all the variants we've heard. I'm sure there are listers who can read the phonetic spellings below better than me. But it seems there is a "d" sound in it and is not a soft "j". > > Heb"gib"ra (hI*KdJaI* rI, KhIdJ Ir I) > > n., pl. -ras. > 1. (sometimes l.c.) Hijra. > 2. (l.c.) Also, hejira.any flight or journey to a more desirable or congenial place. > [1590b1600; < Medieval Latin < Arabic; see Hijra] > > I imagine Furry Lewis despised the song about him because he was dirt poor and this elegant blond visitor had a "limo (that was) shining on his shanty street" and he viewed the encounter as an exploitation. If it had been accompanied by a $1000 check I suspect he'd have loved the song. > > Dave > > p.s my band performs this abum in November so it will be nice to be able to pronounce it correctly. Joni is probably not a good source for its pronunciation having heard her way of saying "samba" and "cellulite"! > > > On Jun 24, 2013, at 3:04 PM, Ange T wrote: > >> Hey listers, >> I've been asked to do an interview here in Australia on ABC radio. The >> segment is called: Something old, something new, something borrowed, >> something blue. It involves me selecting/playing songs that relate to those >> themes. >> >> Off the back of Luminato, it seems like the obvious selection for the >> 'blue' themed song would be Furry Sings the Blues (particularly given that >> Joni says one of the lyrics she is most proud of is within this song). But >> before I go on air, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions: >> >> 1. How do I pronounce Hejira? I always pronounced it as "hedge-ear-ra" but >> after listening to her Luminato interview, where the interviewer says >> "hedge-eye-ra", I'm now uncertain. I'm wondering if this is a 'you say >> tomAYto, I say tomARto' thing... or if there's a correct way of saying it. >> >> 2. I was researching Furry online and found this reference on wikipedia: >> >> Joni Mitchell 's song, "Furry >> Sings the Blues", (on her *Hejira >> * album ) is about her visit to Furry >> Lewis' apartment and a mostly ruined Beale >> Street on >> February 5th, 1976. Lewis despised the Mitchell song and demanded she pay >> him royalties .[4] >> >> Does anyone know the full story of Joni's journey to Beale Street and her >> interactions with Furry? Has she ever answered questions about his reported >> dislike of her song? Were they friends before she wrote the song? >> >> I never heard anything disrespectful in the lyrics to that song, but now >> I'm wondering whether it's the best choice for this interview. Feel free to >> shed some (shadows and) light on this topic. >> >> Thanking you, >> Ange in Oz >> angetakats.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 07:34:39 -0500 From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues I wonder if she still has her badge collection? Mine was car hood ornaments, but there was no flirting, only twisting. Mine is long gone. The only one I miss was a Cadillac one that I turned into a belt buckle for my pot leaf decorated hippie belt. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2013, at 7:57 PM, "Scott Johnson" wrote: > All I can add to the "Furry" story is what prompted Joni into stealing the > badges from cops. During the Rolling Thunder Tour, every place they played, > there would be all these cops standing around. They all had bad attitudes > toward cops because of Mayor Daley and the Democratic Convention. She > mentioned the footage of here come the cops and here come the hippies. The > hippies were with candles singing, "We shall overcome" at a peaceful > demonstration and then they collided. She saw it live on television where > the cops just started bashing in heads with billy clubs. It was a revelation > for her generation of what was happening in America. Several years after > that, the image stuck with her. Now there were all these cops standing > around and she decided, "out of boredom really, to rip off cops. It was a > psychological thriller." She would flirt with them for their badges. Only > one New York cop said she was crazy. Most of the cops went along with the > spirit of it. When she left Rolling Thunder, she proceeded on her own. In > Memphis, she met the cop Catherine mentioned. She tried to make a deal with > him -- his badge for a ride in her limo to the record store. That's when he > took her to Beale Street instead. > > During the Tuesday night concert, she began speaking the lyrics: > > "Old Beale Street is coming down > Sweeties' Snack Bar, boarded up now > And Egles The Tailor and the Shine Boy's gone > > Then she began to SING: > > "Faded out with Ragtime blues..........." > > I'll tell you, I was sitting next to Patti P. and we both gasped and the > tears started to flow. You could hear the audience at that moment gasp as > well. We both had chills. I wasn't at Wednesdays show, but I think we were > treated to Joni's first *back to singing* moment. It was an opening night > after years of not performing, when she wasn't quite sure what the > audience's reaction would be, or if she could actually sing well enough by > her standards. I'll be forever grateful to have been in the audience, just > at that moment of the world. I'm reminded of what Mark wrote in his parody, > > "As we dreamed of songs she might sing > She spoke words but her voice broke free" > > Jody > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of > Catherine McKay > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 6:36 PM > To: Ange T; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues > > Funny you should ask about the pronunciation. A few of us commented on that > on the Facebook jmdl page. The way Joni pronounces it is the way you do, > Hedge-ear-uh. Jon Pareles pronounced it Hedge-eye-ruh. If you look it up on > a dictionary, you might even find another way or two to pronounce it, so go > with the Joni pronunciation, since it's her song. > > Before Joni sang "Furry" at Massey Hall last week, she told a story about > how she had gone around whatever city she was in at the time, collecting > badges from cops, by flirting with them. She says that, when she got to > Memphis, a cop there (and she mentions he had been one of the cops present > when Martin Luther King was assassinated, or one who arrived on the scene > shortly after) wouldn't give her his badge, but instead offered to drive her > down to Beale Street, where she met Furry Lewis. > > You can hear part of this story on the Youtube link below, where she > describes what it was like on Beale Street at the time, when things were in > ruins. Unfortunately, it doesn't include the part just before that, about > getting badges from cops. Maybe someone else who was there can remember this > story better than I can and can fill in some gaps. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhJHY05rX8 > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ange T >> To: "joni@smoe.org" >> Cc: >> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 6:04:36 PM >> Subject: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues >> >> Hey listers, >> I've been asked to do an interview here in Australia on ABC radio. The >> segment is called: Something old, something new, something borrowed, >> something blue. It involves me selecting/playing songs that relate to > those >> themes. >> >> Off the back of Luminato, it seems like the obvious selection for the >> 'blue' themed song would be Furry Sings the Blues (particularly given >> that >> Joni says one of the lyrics she is most proud of is within this song). But >> before I go on air, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions: >> >> 1. How do I pronounce Hejira? I always pronounced it as "hedge-ear-ra" >> but >> after listening to her Luminato interview, where the interviewer says >> "hedge-eye-ra", I'm now uncertain. I'm wondering if this is a >> 'you say >> tomAYto, I say tomARto' thing... or if there's a correct way of saying >> it. >> >> 2. I was researching Furry online and found this reference on wikipedia: >> >> Joni Mitchell 's song, >> "Furry >> Sings the Blues", (on her >> *Hejira >> * album ) is about her visit to Furry >> Lewis' apartment and a mostly ruined Beale >> Street on >> February 5th, 1976. Lewis despised the Mitchell song and demanded she pay >> him royalties > .[4] rry_Lewis#cite_note-cascade-4> >> >> Does anyone know the full story of Joni's journey to Beale Street and her >> interactions with Furry? Has she ever answered questions about his > reported >> dislike of her song? Were they friends before she wrote the song? >> >> I never heard anything disrespectful in the lyrics to that song, but now >> I'm wondering whether it's the best choice for this interview. Feel free >> to >> shed some (shadows and) light on this topic. >> >> Thanking you, >> Ange in Oz >> angetakats.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 06:17:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues, Joni's pronunciation with Champs Elysees, just use a z sound instead of the d sound as Joni sings it. No need to try to sound French. And speaking of "ain't", I've always found it weird that people who don't say "ain't" use it in song lyrics. Similarly, people who wouldn't say "walkin' and talkin'" in speech will sing that way with no problem. That's one of the strange things about the popular song! I'm not talking about taking a song that someone else wrote and correcting the English (although that could be hilarious), but about people that gots a good eddication, who write their own songs and suddenly start soundin' like they ain't had much schoolin'. >________________________________ > From: Laura Stanley >To: Dave Blackburn >Cc: Ange T ; "joni@smoe.org" >Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 8:25:37 AM >Subject: Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues, Joni's pronunciation > > > >In preparation to perform Free Man in Paris at the Jonifest in 2003, I asked a French friend to help me with the pronunciation of Champs ElysC)es. It ain't the same as in the song. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 22:30:52 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Squelched? "The only thing that's never going away is Joni Mitchell" says this New Yorker cartoon. http://www.condenaststore.com/-sp/The-only-thing-that-s-never-going-away-is-Joni-Mitchell-New-Yorker-Cartoon-Prints_i8546437_.htm On Monday, June 24, 2013, Lori Renee Fye wrote: > > My feeling is that people will discover her music as time > > goes on with or without a Hollywood movie about Joni or > > a high profile young singing sensation playing her in it. > > Actually, what's most likely to happen is that, when Joni passes on (and > goddess forbid the thought, but ...), the Biography Channel will quickly > finish up whatever it already has in the can (and you know something like > that exists, as it exists for just about every performer who's made any > sort of an impact) and then, suddenly, lots of people who never before had > an interest in Joni's music will "discover" her. > > > Good musicians who know their stuff are never going to > > let Joni's music fade into obscurity. > > Thank the goddess for that! > > Lori > Idaho ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 06:12:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Mispronounced words I had to go and listen to both "Free man in Paris" and "Dreamland" again. I definitely hear "Champs d'Elysees," even though I was wondering if it was just the liaison between the end of Champs and Elysees (which would be a z sound), but I still hear D, even in some of the live versions I have. English-speaking people do pronounce "samba" the way Joni does. I was surprised when I listened again to "Dreamland," because for some reason, I thought she did pronounce it more like "sahm-ba", but nope. In fact, when I listened to the pronunciation on one of those talking dictionaries, to get the Brazilian pronunciation, it sounds more like the way Joni says it than "sahm-ba." I've never had a problem with her pronunciation of "clandestine". There are various pronunciations, one being more American and the other more UK and Joni merged the two and I agree with you that it's more for the rhyme than anything and it doesn't bother me, but I remember people arguing about this before. That was one of those words that I never really knew how to pronounce anyway, because I've seen it more than I've heard it. There are certain words I try not to say because they sound weird no matter how you say them, jewels being one! >________________________________ > From: David Marine >To: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 4:15:16 AM >Subject: Re: Mispronounced words > > >Hey List, > >I'm confused. The pronunciation of clandestine, obviously, is a rhyming thing, >like schools and jewels. Her pronunciation of "samba" in Dreamland is the >standard English pronunciation. I hear no "d" in Champs-Ilysies, though the >syllables are stressed in an odd way. And as for Hejira, I can't see how it's >possible for her to mispronounce the name of her own album, any more than it >would be possible for her to mispronounce her name. > >Best, > >David > > >On Jun 25, 2013, at 3:00 AM, JMDL Digest wrote: > >> Subject: Mispronounced words >> >> Dave said: >> Joni is probably not a good source for its pronunciation having heard her >> way of saying "samba" and "cellulite"! >> >> Catherine added: >> She also says "realtors" strangely. We've had the "clandestine" discussion >> before too. >> >> May I please add the mystery of the 'd' in the middle of Champs Elysees? >> And President REEgan? Most of the odd pronunciations, I chalk up to >> Canadian (prairie) dialect or song fit, but those bug me. >> >> Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 07:43:07 -0500 From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Mispronounced words In the spirit of Miles of Aisles... Say it how you want! Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I don't think any of those weird pronunciations are particularly Canadian. They're just wrong. > > The Champs d'Elysees thing always bugged me. That's not poor pronunciation. It's just wrong. > > > > > >> ________________________________ >> From: Betsy Blue >> To: joni@smoe.org >> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 10:04:44 PM >> Subject: Mispronounced words >> >> >> Dave said: >> Joni is probably not a good source for its pronunciation having heard her >> way of saying "samba" and "cellulite"! >> >> Catherine added: >> She also says "realtors" strangely. We've had the "clandestine" discussion >> before too. >> >> May I please add the mystery of the 'd' in the middle of Champs Elysees? >> And President REEgan? Most of the odd pronunciations, I chalk up to >> Canadian (prairie) dialect or song fit, but those bug me. >> >> Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 20:12:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Mispronounced words I don't think any of those weird pronunciations are particularly Canadian. They're just wrong. The Champs d'Elysees thing always bugged me. That's not poor pronunciation. It's just wrong. >________________________________ > From: Betsy Blue >To: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 10:04:44 PM >Subject: Mispronounced words > > >Dave said: >Joni is probably not a good source for its pronunciation having heard her >way of saying "samba" and "cellulite"! > >Catherine added: >She also says "realtors" strangely. We've had the "clandestine" discussion >before too. > >May I please add the mystery of the 'd' in the middle of Champs Elysees? >And President REEgan? Most of the odd pronunciations, I chalk up to >Canadian (prairie) dialect or song fit, but those bug me. > >Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 21:48:12 -0400 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Luminato Let me join the chorus - I haven't had a chance to watch/read more than a few of the videos and links, but I an SO happy for (and not a little jealous of) the jmdlers who attended. I have teared up reading several of the accounts. What a great Joni experience we have all had, through you! Love to all, *************************************************** Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA FAR-West (Folk Alliance Region - West) tinkersown@ca.rr.com www.far-west.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 19:04:42 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues I had no idea what 'cellulate' was when I first hear 'Otis and Marlena'. Now I think Joni was altering the diphthong to rhyme the word with 'state' in the line 'in her ballrooms heads of state'. Over-reaching a bit there, maybe? The short 'a' she sings in 'samba' might have been her Canadian prairie girl roots showing through or a deliberate mimicking of an ignorant American tourist. I hail from the Midwestern USA where the dialect is often described as flat or nasal. People in Washington state have told me I speak like a Midwesterner. I used to think they were full of it but the older I get, the more I can hear it to a certain extent. But then I tend to be a mimic, often unconsciously picking up other people's speech patterns and pronunciations. Mark in Seattle - -----Original Message----- From: Dave Blackburn Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 3:25 PM To: Ange T Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Questions regarding Furry Sings The Blues p.s my band performs this abum in November so it will be nice to be able to pronounce it correctly. Joni is probably not a good source for its pronunciation having heard her way of saying "samba" and "cellulite"! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 13:32:33 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: VIDEO: Joni: The Creative Odyssey of Joni Mitchell When I got back from Luminato I decided to get this book because it had recently been released on Kindle. I'm only through the first chapter but I think it's going to be really good. I'll have to go back in the archives to see how the list reacted to it at the time of its release. Speaking of archives, she keeps saying in this interview, "when I looked back at the archives ..." which I'm sure meant the article database on jm.com. Thank you again, Les Irvin. :-) Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of est86mlm@ameritech.net Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 1:28 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: VIDEO: Joni: The Creative Odyssey of Joni Mitchell Ran across this very thought-provoking interview with Katherine Monk. http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Local+Shows/British+Columbia/Radio+West/ID/2289036482/?page=14 Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 14:47:59 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Luminato audio re-broadcast Joniphiles - According to the Luminato PR co-ordinator, last Tuesday evening's event with Joni is being broadcast on CBC Radio in 2 parts - on July 1 and July 8. She "believes" that this will be entirely the Tuesday night performance. More if I hear more.... Thanks, Les ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #840 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------