From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #711 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, June 15 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 711 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses [Laura Stanley ] Interview ["Mark" ] Re: Joni's Drawing Game [Moni Kellermann ] Re: Warehouse 13 Joni Sighting [Moni Kellermann ] Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses [Shari Eaton ] Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses [Gerald Kent ] Painting vs Music [Dave Blackburn ] Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses [Ange T ] RE: The Interview/ drawing dog houses ["Rob Argento" ] Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:16:04 -0500 From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses Ange, I thought just the opposite when I heard this. We've looked at Joni from both sides now, from full of herself to emptying herself, but still somehow, its Joni illusions we recall, we really don't know Joni, at all. Love, Laura Sent from my iPhone On Jun 14, 2013, at 4:36 PM, Ange T wrote: > > > To me, the real test of how 'incredibly full of herself she has become' was > the final question - when asked what she was 'most proud of'. She could > have brought up a killer song, or concert or collaboration - but she told a > story of the two sisters who had lost their mother and had listened to her > lyrics and melodies to comfort themselves during their grief. > > Ange in Oz > www.angetakats.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:06:38 -0400 From: "Gary Z." Subject: Joni's Drawing Game While browsing the CBC archives, I came across this old interview footage of Joni from the '60s with Paul Soles and Adrienne Clarkson that I hadn't seen before. She was married and living with Chuck in Detroit at the time and shows the hosts a "drawing game" she plays to pass the time. It's also interesting (to me) that she talks about writing "happy" songs, and how a reviewer criticized her for that. http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/arts-entertainment/music/joni-mitchell-all-sides-now/a-sunshine-melody-joni-mitchell.html Hope you enjoy it! Best regards, Gary Z. Detroit ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 01:33:50 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Interview I finally finished watching all of Joni's interview with Jian Ghomeshi. I'm not sure I'm ready to write about it yet but I'm feeling the need to jump into all of the discussion about it. So here goes. First of all I did not hear Joni say that everybody hated 'Blue' when it came out. If memory serves she said they were horrified by it. And if she said the word everybody, I really don't believe she was talking about the people who were buying the records and writing the reviews. She mentioned a couple of names of people in the music business that commented about it being too revealing. Johnny Cash was one of them. Maybe what 'horrified' other performers about 'Blue' was imagining themselves being that candid and vulnerable on a record or on a stage. I doubt that many of them relished the thought. Whether she knew it at the the time or not, Joni had done something pretty damn gutsy when she put that record out for public consumption. It seems to me that it brought her a lot of acclaim but also exacted a pretty high price in the long run. I feel that the 'confessional' label that she balks at so much is due in large part to her writing on 'Blue'. Also, people who understand anything about what makes her so great an artist know that she put out a lot of more innovative and challenging work after 'Blue'. I did laugh at her exclamations about confessions while mimicking a policeman brandishing a billy club. She was certainly having some fun with that. Is Joni full of herself? I suppose she is but what a fascinating persona she projects! I don't agree with every single word she says. Travis heard her spiel about western medicine and commented about it later. I told him I knew that both of us would probably be dead by now if it weren't for western medicine, so I'm not so much of a fanatic that I take every word Joni utters as Absolute Truth. But I did find myself agreeing with a lot of what she had to say. In fact, while listening to her and watching her, I found myself wondering just how much she may have influenced my thinking over the years. I like to think that she opened my mind to different ways of looking at things and that I haven't simply slavishly followed along, transferring her ideas into my head like they were some kind of Joni Mitchell dog-eat-dogma. Sure, there were sound bites in there that she's used before. I wonder how many times she's recited that poem about the goldfish bowl? She certainly didn't seem to mind telling Jian that she wrote it when she was 16, did she? But then she is very emphatic about how she feels about false modesty. In a way, I envy her that confidence and egotism, if that's what it is. I very rarely can quite believe that anything I do is truly well-done or in any way exceptional. I suppose that can be misconstrued as false modesty. There have been a few things I've done in my life that I am proud of. I think Joni is right that we are taught to believe that it is wrong to toot our own horns. If anybody does, Joni Mitchell certainly has a right to lay claim to having created an exceptional body of work. I was completely absorbed and fascinated with her descriptions of how she creates lyrics. One of the things she excels at is fitting the words so perfectly with the notes so that the songs are like well-crafted dramas. She said that the melody comes first and then at some point a concept for a lyric follows. The lyrics have to be dramatically structured so that the climax of the story or thought corresponds with the climax of the music. I loved hearing her talk about how words and phrases come into her head. How she then she selects and arranges and cuts and rearranges. I do the same thing when I am writing one of these overly long, cockamamie emails although the results are hardly comparable to Joni's lyric writing. It's completely hypocritical to say this as I sit in this room that contains two working computers, a machine that scans and prints, a TiVo, a small flat screen TV, electric lights, a cd player and who knows how many other electronic devices, but I do agree with Joni's assessment of how all of this stuff is sucking the life out of the planet. I also think there is truth in what she says about technology driving us away from our sanity. I think there is something significant about the number of movies and television series that are popping up these days that are set in one kind of post-apocalyptic world or other. It almost feels like we are resigned to some kind of approaching doomsday. Joni referred to the paintings in the room as pretty things to put on the walls. Although her paintings have been exhibited, it sounds like she does them for her own gratification and, not being under any time constraints, she works on them until they satisfy her. She could even rework them if she chose to. But the records have gone out to the public and to most of us, anyway, are so familiar that they are unalterable. I can see how hearing them after so many years would be difficult for her. To catch something that now sounds less than satisfactory to her but that she knows she can't change would be irritating to Joni at the very least. Anyway, I was in hog heaven. In spite of being egotistical, opinionated, full of herself and always, always misunderstood, I still love listening to her talk. And it's wonderful to see her so animated and saying she wants more of life because there are so many more things she wants to accomplish. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:57:49 +0200 From: Moni Kellermann Subject: Re: Joni's Drawing Game Am 15.06.2013 12:06, Wie Gary Z. so vortrefflich formulierte: > http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/arts-entertainment/music/joni-mitchell-all-sides-now/a-sunshine-melody-joni-mitchell.html You can grab the video also from here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w-QI7VA6S4 moni k. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 13:08:33 +0200 From: Moni Kellermann Subject: Re: Warehouse 13 Joni Sighting Am 15.06.2013 08:22, Wie Mark so vortrefflich formulierte: > The Airplane and Joni Mitchell on the same bill. What a dream. As far as I know: - - Joni Mitchell never HEADLINED any concert where Jefferson Airplane would have been the opening act - - the date "Tuesday July 7" indicates that the year is 1970 - - there is no record found of any concert on that date, not at Fillmore East or West - - the female face on the poster is neither Joni nor Grace Slick To me it looks like some unrealistic fantasy poster. You can decide for yourself: http://s9.postimg.org/ix9sodufz/warehouse13_fillmore.jpg moni k. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 10:42:56 -0700 From: Shari Eaton Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses Agreed, Gerald. I only today caught up with the viewing and the reading. I feel lucky to be a Joni fan and a part of this group. Thank you all for keeping me up to date and for taking the time to express yourselves. I may watch a few more times before commenting but the one thing that struck me deeply right away is her criticism of the Internet and how timely her comments are with recent big brother news. Lots of self absorbed Joni. (I wouldn't have her any other way.) Shari On Jun 14, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Gerald Kent wrote: > She is quite complicated, no question about that. What is really refreshing > is that someone on the list is actually being objective. Thanks. Peace, > Gerry > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 14, 2013, at 1:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > >> I don't actually disagree with you. I've always thought Joni sounded a > little too full of herself - at least, any interview from the past 10-15 > years. But it also suggests to me that maybe she's very lonely and has only > herself to depend on. I could be misinterpreting that. She is definitely very > opinionated and I really don't know if I'd want to engage in a conversation > with her, because it seems like it would be more like a monologue. >> >> From: Gerald Kent >> To: Catherine McKay >> Cc: Ange T ; "joni@smoe.org" >> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:00:53 PM >> Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses >> >> I have long been fascinated by her work in music (not very impressed with > her visual art) but this interview illustrates for me how incredibly full of > herself she has become. Sorry worshipers, just my opinion. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 14, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: >> >>> I completely agree with what you've said. And I am thrilled to hear that > she's writing her memoir. She finally bought a computer for that! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 12:00:53 -0400 From: Gerald Kent Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses I have long been fascinated by her work in music (not very impressed with her visual art) but this interview illustrates for me how incredibly full of herself she has become. Sorry worshipers, just my opinion. Sent from my iPad On Jun 14, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I completely agree with what you've said. And I am thrilled to hear that she's writing her memoir. She finally bought a computer for that! > > > > >> ________________________________ >> From: Ange T >> To: joni@smoe.org >> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:40:58 AM >> Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses >> >> >> >> I agree that it's sad to think she'll never sing in public again. But it >> would be much sadder to watch her struggle to reach unachievable notes on >> stage. I think it's beautiful that she doesn't feel the need to hang on to >> that side of herself. She's so much more than a singer. I just wish we >> could hear her words of wisdom more often. >> >> I look forward to reading her memoir!!! >> >> Ange in Oz >> www.angetakats.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 10:45:08 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Painting vs Music Michel makes a really crucial point I think. I would add to it by saying Joni is not a commercial artist, in that she does not sell her paintings, whereas her music was a commercial venture (despite how artistic it was) and she depended on it for her living. As Michel states, her painting is good but I suspect not groundbreaking or exceptional but it is largely done for herself, and to depict places and friends to hang on her walls. Her music was conversely for public and critical consumption, making her relationship to it far more complicated. It may be a mystery to HER how with so little training in music or influence of her contemporaries she was able to produce so much great work, over many years, if I understand Michel correctly. It is almost a conundrum that her painter's "eye for detail" led her to be a brilliant and original songwriter but not a painter of the same order of magnitude. On Gerald's point that she is rather full of herself in interviews, I'd say that is true, but we learn that she feels quite alone as an artist which, compounded with illnesses keeping her confined to home, could easily make someone defensive about the outside world with its pettiness and competitiveness. She still has that endearing laugh though which instantly lightens the weight of her intellectual seriousness in an interview and suggests she is aware of how her egotistical artist-persona is not to be taken too much to heart. She is as much a pool playing buddy as a fearsome intellect with the penetrating vision. One of a kind, no question. Dave On Jun 14, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Michel BYRNE wrote: > She is a good > painter, even a very good painter (though not of hands...), but no way would > she ever be described as a genius painter-- and that must be a much more > comfortable, much more comprehensible place to be than in her music where > something well beyond her conscious control has produced great art: that kind > of gift that hasn't come from hard graft and craft (e.g. learning music > theory, practising scales, etc) but an incredible instinctive talent that must > have been pretty scary and also posed a constant challenge to her as she moved > from one project to the next, not really knowing what might have made one > song/album great and another not quite as great. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:36:40 +1000 From: Ange T Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses Strangely enough, a few weeks ago I was talking about the 'ego of Joni' to a friend of mine - but I didn't feel so overwhelmed by it in this interview. Her comments about being an outsider from an early age, about being constantly misunderstood, about her tendencies towards perfectionism, about the double standards that existed throughout her career (the 'summer of love') - all helped me get more of an insight into why she says the egotistical things she does. To me, the real test of how 'incredibly full of herself she has become' was the final question - when asked what she was 'most proud of'. She could have brought up a killer song, or concert or collaboration - but she told a story of the two sisters who had lost their mother and had listened to her lyrics and melodies to comfort themselves during their grief. Ange in Oz www.angetakats.com.au On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:00 AM, Gerald Kent wrote: > I have long been fascinated by her work in music (not very impressed with > her visual art) but this interview illustrates for me how incredibly full > of herself she has become. Sorry worshipers, just my opinion. > > Sent from my iPad ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 19:48:49 -0700 (PDT) From: lu lancton Subject: Luminato tickets? Hi All, Paz is going to freakin' pass out when he sees this post, as I've been a jmdl member since about 1998 or '99 and have never posted. Yes, I am The Ultimate Lurker. :) I've managed to talk my very understanding husband into driving to Toronto for Luminato. We'll probably leave on Monday from Indianapolis. I'm getting a bit nervous because I don't have tickets to the show(s), and am worried that we'll be investing a chunk of time and $, only to left sitting on a curb outside Massey Hall. Boy, I'd NEVER hear the end of that! I'm on digest, so emailing me at rockinwithlu@sbcglobal may be the best way to contact me if you can help out. Also, like Anita, I own one of the Ibanez Joni Guitars that sold in 2003. I have the Sunburst labeled #4, as well as a picture of Paz on my couch playing it a few years ago. Martinis were involved... Thank you! LuAnn Lancton P.S - Bill and I have PazFest III on our calendar and are very excited! www.billlancton.com/luann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 19:25:17 +0200 From: "Rob Argento" Subject: RE: The Interview/ drawing dog houses I really do not see that as anything special. Joni's music, poetry and Art have always been somewhat egocentric as is with most artists. That she has shared with us innermost feelings, I have never interpreted as an expression of any sort of social responsibility. That we have recognized some of these feelings and experiences in ourselves, that is where I have loved Joni's art, knowing one is not alone in some feelings of one's relationship to life, that some feelings are universal. Face it. Being "full of oneself" is a pretty American trait. /Robban in Sweden (though raised in the USA). - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Gerald Kent Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 6:01 PM To: Catherine McKay Cc: Ange T; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses I have long been fascinated by her work in music (not very impressed with her visual art) but this interview illustrates for me how incredibly full of herself she has become. Sorry worshipers, just my opinion. Sent from my iPad On Jun 14, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I completely agree with what you've said. And I am thrilled to hear that she's writing her memoir. She finally bought a computer for that! > > > > >> ________________________________ >> From: Ange T >> To: joni@smoe.org >> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:40:58 AM >> Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses >> >> >> >> I agree that it's sad to think she'll never sing in public again. But >> it would be much sadder to watch her struggle to reach unachievable >> notes on stage. I think it's beautiful that she doesn't feel the need >> to hang on to that side of herself. She's so much more than a singer. >> I just wish we could hear her words of wisdom more often. >> >> I look forward to reading her memoir!!! >> >> Ange in Oz >> www.angetakats.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 10:01:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses I don't actually disagree with you. I've always thought Joni sounded a little too full of herself - at least, any interview from the past 10-15 years. But it also suggests to me that maybe she's very lonely and has only herself to depend on. I could be misinterpreting that. She is definitely very opinionated and I really don't know if I'd want to engage in a conversation with her, because it seems like it would be more like a monologue. >________________________________ > From: Gerald Kent >To: Catherine McKay >Cc: Ange T ; "joni@smoe.org" >Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:00:53 PM >Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses > > >I have long been fascinated by her work in music (not very impressed with her visual art) but this interview illustrates for me how incredibly full of herself she has become. Sorry worshipers, just my opinion. > >Sent from my iPad > >On Jun 14, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > >> I completely agree with what you've said. And I am thrilled to hear that she's writing her memoir. She finally bought a computer for that! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 06:12:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses I completely agree with what you've said. And I am thrilled to hear that she's writing her memoir. She finally bought a computer for that! >________________________________ > From: Ange T >To: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:40:58 AM >Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses > > > >I agree that it's sad to think she'll never sing in public again. But it >would be much sadder to watch her struggle to reach unachievable notes on >stage. I think it's beautiful that she doesn't feel the need to hang on to >that side of herself. She's so much more than a singer. I just wish we >could hear her words of wisdom more often. > >I look forward to reading her memoir!!! > >Ange in Oz >www.angetakats.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:23 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: The Interview/ drawing dog houses A nice computer too. It looks like a top of the line MAC. Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 9:12 AM To: Ange T; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses I completely agree with what you've said. And I am thrilled to hear that she's writing her memoir. She finally bought a computer for that! >________________________________ > From: Ange T >To: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:40:58 AM >Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses > > > >I agree that it's sad to think she'll never sing in public again. But >it would be much sadder to watch her struggle to reach unachievable >notes on stage. I think it's beautiful that she doesn't feel the need >to hang on to that side of herself. She's so much more than a singer. I >just wish we could hear her words of wisdom more often. > >I look forward to reading her memoir!!! > >Ange in Oz >www.angetakats.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:38:26 +0000 From: Michael quebec Subject: Joni Luminato concert to be broadcast on CBC Radio Good news ! About two weeks from now, you can hear a one-hour version of the show on Canada Live (though it won't be broadcast live, just recorded live) which airs Friday afternoons on CBC Radio 1. It willl also most likely be available on demand, at http://music.cbc.ca/ Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 13:57:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses I'm not objective. I just keep changing my mind about things. >________________________________ > From: Anita G >To: Gerald Kent >Cc: Catherine McKay ; Ange T ; "joni@smoe.org" >Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:34:48 PM >Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses > > > What is really >> refreshing >> is that someone on the list is actually being objective. Thanks. Peace, >> Gerry >> >Your supposition is that objectivity exists.......but that's another ball game, >Peace also >Anita ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:34:48 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: The Interview/ drawing dog houses What is really > refreshing > is that someone on the list is actually being objective. Thanks. Peace, > Gerry > Your supposition is that objectivity exists.......but that's another ball game, Peace also Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 08:38:09 +1000 From: Ange T Subject: Re: The Interview / feminism Forgive me if this has already been shared - but I thought this response to the Joni interview (published on Feminist Current by Meghan Murphy) was interesting, particularly off the back of the recent 'ego' thread. >>> In an interview with Jian Ghomeshi on CBC Radios *Q*, which was mostly wonderful and intelligent and the cause of much swooning in Mitchells fans (of which I am one), there was this awkward moment. And I tried very hard to ignore it. **My aural love affair with Joni Mitchell began over two decades ago, with my mothers records. *Blue *became one of my all-time favorite albums when I was about 15. So when she told Ghomeshi: Im not a feminist, I quickly suffocated the quote with a mental pillow and stuffed it into a suitcase along with everything I dont feel like acknowledging (because, as it turns out, everything awesome gives you cancer). Im choosing to ignore that, was my response to other feminists who noted their disappointment in Mitchells words. They, like me (though less committed to denial), felt let down by one of their icons. And she didnt just say Im not a feminist, and leave it at that. She was downright hostile. The painful thing about Mitchells rejection of feminism and feminists is that she teases us with all of her feminist consciousness. She says, of her album, *Blue*: It was a mans world The game was to make yourself larger than life. Mitchell was told she revealed too much of herself on that album, showed too much weakness and, in a mans world, vulnerability is a bad thing. She brilliantly calls out the bullshit myth that was the free love movement of the 60s as being what it was: a ruse for guys  a way to get laid. Mitchell doesnt fake humility, as women are meant to. She doesnt hide her talent, she doesnt pretend as though she is unaware that she is gifted and not only gifted, but *better*, much better than so many (most, even) other artists. Women arent supposed to know they are good. At very least, they arent supposed to say they are good. Mitchell isnt afraid of her ego. Im too good for a girl, she says. It made her male contemporaries uncomfortable. But then  stab-stab-stab  Im not a feminist. Wheres that line for you, Ghomeshi asks. I dont want to get a posse against men, Mitchell responds. Stab-cry-stab. She qualifies her statement: Ive got a lot of men friends. (more crying) Too many amazons in that community The feminism in this continent isnt feminine, its masculine. Our feminism isnt feminism, its masculinism. Theres this idea that being a feminist means being more like men. Its a stupid idea, perpetuated, Id thought, by stupid people and conservatives. Feminism is, of course, about challenging the idea that such a thing exists as masculine or feminine. Its about the fact that we learn gender. Neither masculinity or femininity exists in a biological sense and therefore neither is better or worse than the other. Traits that are typically associated with femininity are, of course, seen as worse because all things woman are seen are worse in our culture. Feminism is neither feminine or masculine. Nor should it be a celebration of either. It sounds like maybe shes had some bad experiences with feminists. She says theyve been nasty. To her, perhaps? I dont know. But something or some things made her hate feminism. In an interview done by Ani DiFranco back in 1998, the Mitchell tells her: I prefer the company of men, going on to describe the pleasure of being the only female presence among men. I dont want to have to say I like men, too, Joni! Ive got lots of men friends, too, Joni! And I think theyre great! AND Im a feminist! See? SEE?? Because that isnt the point. And Im tired of hearing feminists have to say We dont hate men, we love them! as a way to try to sell our movement. Mitchells rejection of feminism doesnt make me mad, though I understand the angry and frustrated reaction from some of her feminist fans who wonder how this seemingly feminist and highly intelligent woman could take such cliched and ignorant stabs at them  it made me sad. She seems like shes right there with us, until we get to the movement part. DiFranco writes: Joni has been personally disturbed by her own second-class citizenship for many years, as well she should be. It is interesting to study her public treatment, especially in the context of, say, her buddy Bob Dylan. For 30 years, Bob has been surrounded by a wealth of media hyperbole (voice of a generation, etc.) that was never lavished on Joni. Only now is she beginning to receive some of the public strokes befitting her contribution to popular music. After all this time, though, some of the praising rings hollow, she confided. Why has Bob been so thoroughly canonized and Joni so condescended to over the years? Maybe, in part, because when Joni was uppity, she was considered a bitch, and the media retaliated. From day one, however, Bob could be as uppity as he wanted, and the great mammoth rock press lauded his behavior as rebellious, clever, renegade and punkishly cool. Maybe its also because Bobs songs are inherently more masculine (go figure) and have therefore been viewed as more universal, while Jonis writing, which has a more feminine perspective, is put in a box labeled girl stuff. Mitchell knows that her experiences in life and in music are gendered. She knows shes been treated differently in the mans world that is the music industry. Maybe she feels she wants to side with the men because she feels she made it on her own accord. The boys dont need a movement to make it. *Full piece can be found here - http://feministcurrent.com/7738/why-joni-mitchells-rejection-of-feminism-brok e-my-heart-a-little-and-why-im-tired-of-talking-about-beyonce/ * ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #711 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------