From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #707 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, June 13 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 707 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Blue's Billboard ranking [Michael quebec ] Re: The Interview [Anita G ] Re: Blue's Billboard ranking [Michael Flaherty ] Re: "What can I fight and what can I accept?" [LC Stanley ] Re: Blue's Billboard ranking [Catherine McKay ] The Interview [Betsy ] John Calimee, can you please contact me! [Catherine McKay ] Re: The Interview [Anita G ] 16 amazing things about Joni [Catherine McKay ] re:Joni and Jian [c Karma ] Re: The Interview [Dave Blackburn ] Re: "What can I fight and what can I accept?" [Dave Blackburn Subject: Blue's Billboard ranking From Wikipedia: Blue (1971) is the fourth album of Canadian singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell. Exploring the various facets of relationships from infatuation on "A Case of You" to insecurity on "This Flight Tonight", the songs feature simple accompaniments on piano, guitar, and Appalachian dulcimer. Blue was a critical and commercial success, reaching #15 on the Billboard 200 and #3 in the UK Albums Chart. The single "Carey" reached #93 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. In January 2000, the New York Times chose Blue as one of the 25 albums that represented "turning points and pinnacles in 20th-century popular music".[11] Joni's comment about Blue's reception also surprised me, could it be a manifestation of her divine dissatisfaction ? her oversensitivity to criticism ? Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 09:21:57 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: The Interview Catherine (and Dave) some really interesting thoughts and ideas. The one I pick up on from both your posts (because, of course, of my own 'ishooes', about the critical parent) is about her relationship with Myrtle. I remember commenting a while back about another Joni interview in which she mentions that Myrtle really liked 'Dancing Clown'. Imagine having a body of work like Joni's and your Mother picks out THAT song to comment upon and like! I am not sure, Catherine, that Joni is particularly complicated, but she isn't always consistent. But who is? I think you're right about her being reflective. She says great things in that interview about our essential aloneness. I imagine her painting and music, like for many, are efforts to express herself and to communicate. I think she's like the rest of us but with the buckets of additional talent and an awful lot of hard won insight that may well come from so many close encounters with Death. Actually, that's probably not like most people at all. I also like it that Joni holds her animals when they die. It's something I have struggled with (it's so painful to let go of something you love so much) but have always done with our animals. It's hard to let go. In the interview, Joni talked about honour. So much of life is about honour. Being with an animal or a person when they die is an honour and is also honouring. I must now go and do something ordinary and paint the fence! Anita On 13/06/2013, Catherine McKay wrote: > I doubt people hated "Blue" at the time. It seems to me that *everyone* had > a copy of "Blue" back then. Maybe a few reviewers didn't like it, but I > doubt even that. The few I did find from the time were very positive. Maybe > she's referring to her male friends (Kris Kristofferson and Johnny Cash) > telling her she was being too open and that she should keep some of herself > for herself, but that's not hate either, and she did discuss that, not as > people hating it but friends, particularly male friends, warning her, maybe > trying to protect her. Maybe she meant that a few fans didn't care for it, > but that I also find hard to believe. I don't recall anyone at the time > saying they hated it, but that was a long time ago. If you never got into > Joni's music to begin with, it doesn't count. > > I also find it strange that, on the one hand, she seems unhappy with her > musical output but, on the other, that she says she had no peers at the > time, which suggests that she believes her music to be superior to anything > else at the time. She compares herself to Duke Ellington, among others, but > he was before her time, so not a peer. > > Also interesting is that, although she is generally happy with a painting > and knows when it's done, she doesn't like to listen to her recordings > because she keeps thinking she could have, should have, done something > differently. Contrast this with her remark from many years ago that you > "wouldn't ask Van Gogh to paint another starry night, man," as a reason why > she doesn't like performing her older catalogue. It's true that, once a > painting is done, it is done. The paint has dried and you move on to > another. (But many painters will paint the same scene many times, trying to > capture different light or something about the scene.) But, if you perform > an old song again, you can renew it and make it completely different, as > we've seen and heard from the various live album songs being so very > different from earlier recordings, and the original recording of BSN, > compared to the Travelogue version. > > She is a > complicated person but then, how many of us are so truly happy with the > things we do that we don't try to second-guess ourselves? Maybe it's because > she recognizes that she has lived quite a long time and is becoming > reflective about various aspects of her life. The trouble with being > perfect, though, is, where do you go from there? Maybe it relates to her > saying that painting is a more zen-like activity, because you're not really > thinking (or overthinking) as you do it, whereas, for Joni at least, the > process of writing songs, maybe lyrics more than music, involves too much > self-critique as you're going and, if you're criticizing yourself all along, > you will probably never be happy with the outcome. So, yes, it is much like > the over-critical parent, where, no matter how well the child performs, it > is never quite good enough. > > > > > > >>________________________________ >> From: Dave Blackburn >>To: Anita G >>Cc: Christopher Treacy ; "joni@smoe.org" >> >>Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 2:13:08 PM >>Subject: Re: The Interview >> >> >>Great point. I think Joni has her usual memorized interview responses that >> are quotable and not that revealing, as perhaps do all celebrities. Jian >> pushed her a little past being able to regurgitate them and notice how she >> was lost for an answer on more than one occasion, staring at the ceiling >> thinking, perhaps, "damn, I don't have the answer memorized for that one." >> He was kind of amazed at how little she seemed proud of her life's musical >> legacy (Myrtle's training at work?) and he wanted to pursue this further >> but she seemed oddly diffident about answering, speaking in generalities >> and making highly dubious claims like "people > hated Blue at the time" (my paraphrase). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 07:50:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Blue's Billboard ranking >Joni's comment about Blue's reception also surprised me, could it be a manifestation of her divine dissatisfaction ? her oversensitivity to criticism Yes, I think that's right. Perhaps she just remembered the scattered negative comments, or perhaps she thought it should have instantly been recognized as brilliant, but by any standards this album has had 40+ years of amazing success. Michael F. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 07:55:36 -0700 (PDT) From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: "What can I fight and what can I accept?" Brings to my mind The Judgement of the Moon and Stars. Here it is in a very nicely done video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMD7mcEpU6U ________________________________ From: Anita G To: jonipeople LIST Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 2:11 PM Subject: "What can I fight and what can I accept?" What a thread that could be. I wouldn't know where to start. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:00:20 -0700 From: Betsy Subject: Kelly Rowland Gone New song out with Joni's hook (as composed, but not the sample) from BYT. I really like it. Kelly's voice is lovely, better than Janet Jackson's for sure, so she can handle it on her own. Anyone else check it out yet? Also loving CRJ'S BSN at the moment. Don't excommunicate me! Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 05:33:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Blue's Billboard ranking Could be that, Michael. Most of us seem to remember negative comments more than positive ones, even if the negative comments come from people we don't care for or don't even know. >________________________________ > From: Michael quebec >To: "joni@smoe.org" ; "anima_rising@yahoo.ca" >Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:53:09 AM >Subject: Blue's Billboard ranking > > >From Wikipedia: >Blue (1971) is the fourth album of Canadian singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell. >Exploring the various facets of relationships from infatuation on "A Case of >You" to insecurity on "This Flight Tonight", the songs feature simple >accompaniments on piano, guitar, and Appalachian dulcimer. Blue was a critical >and commercial success, reaching #15 on the Billboard 200 and #3 in the UK >Albums Chart. The single "Carey" reached #93 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. >In January 2000, the New York Times chose Blue as one of the 25 albums that >represented "turning points and pinnacles in 20th-century popular music".[11] > >Joni's comment about Blue's reception also surprised me, could it be a >manifestation of her divine dissatisfaction ? her oversensitivity to criticism >? > >Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 18:55:13 -0700 From: Betsy Subject: The Interview I think Joni reveals more when she has control, like in concert "patter", than in interviews. She has her sound bites as a hedge against the tendency to meander, and we have all heard them a ton. Still enjoyed it a lot. Favorite moments: - -Getting Banffed (booze and narcotics fueled f**kfest) way back in '64 - -Cursing out the other journalist - -Guerin wake scene - -Robot voices (I hear you in the wiring in the brain) - -"Unwed children" - -Rant against push buttons (irony factor went through the roof with the oil sands ads I had to sit through to hear the interview) - -"Second grade" 2x (American!) - -Paul Simon is too wordy - -Memoir - -Mingus sessions (!!!!!!) That woman is crazazy, and I love it. She seems to be as sharp as ever, but disconnected from the reality most of us live in. Starting to think the hairdo suits her current character. It's kind of Seussian. She's also 100% committed to smoking and the denial that it has done anything to her health. Don't smoke, kids. Not unless you have amazing genes, anyway. Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 09:26:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: John Calimee, can you please contact me! Sorry for posting to the group but I'm trying to send a private message to John Calimee and it keeps bouncing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:45:26 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Blue's Billboard ranking I think it's interesting that she selected two men as critics of Blue. This may be childhood stuff too but since she is attracted to men and likes hanging out with men, (and also Papa brought home the sugar), maybe critical responses from men sting her more ... I can remember when I was first listening to Joni I had a hard time finding a guy who really liked the album Blue (present company obviously excluded!). Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Michael quebec Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:53 AM To: joni@smoe.org; anima_rising@yahoo.ca Subject: Blue's Billboard ranking From Wikipedia: Blue (1971) is the fourth album of Canadian singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell. Exploring the various facets of relationships from infatuation on "A Case of You" to insecurity on "This Flight Tonight", the songs feature simple accompaniments on piano, guitar, and Appalachian dulcimer. Blue was a critical and commercial success, reaching #15 on the Billboard 200 and #3 in the UK Albums Chart. The single "Carey" reached #93 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. In January 2000, the New York Times chose Blue as one of the 25 albums that represented "turning points and pinnacles in 20th-century popular music".[11] Joni's comment about Blue's reception also surprised me, could it be a manifestation of her divine dissatisfaction ? her oversensitivity to criticism ? Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 19:46:30 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: The Interview On 12/06/2013, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Great point. I think Joni has her usual memorized interview responses that > are quotable and not that revealing, as perhaps do all celebrities." I'd say we ALL do that (have our scripts, I mean), but celebrities get the chance to publicly regurgitate them more often. Getting beyond what we believe to be true about ourselves and our lives is always a challenge and I often think feels quite a responsibility. I think Jian does his best to get more than that, Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 12:14:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: 16 amazing things about Joni This is a sort of recap of yesterday's Toronto Star article - kind of Joni factoids for dummies, maybe? http://www.thestar.com/life/2013/06/12/joni_mitchell_16_amazing_things_we_have_learned_about_her.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:39:44 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: re:Joni and Jian Thinking about the pride dichotomy between the music and the painting... Who among us hasn't experienced contempt for our jobs? Writing and recording music was the part of her life for which she had less control of the obligation and may have misgivings about seeking motivation and inspiration as they may have led to forced choices she now considers false. Who else among us has not preferred the results of our labours of love? A cake baked from scratch for a loved one will delight more than one from the warehouse club. More musings: she's been using this same language for years so I can't blame it on current jingoism, but continues to use the words, "oh they HATED that one." I find it interesting that while she paints in such varied hues and shading, she sees things so black and white. Low sales and mixed reviews don't speak indifference to her but outright rejection. I agree with Dave that Blue was not hated. It may have frightened and shaken with its raw emotion, but shouldn't it? Then again, even the Jazz press lauded "Mingus." Her picture and name on the Downbeat magazine cover were bigger than Count Basie! With all the talk about how a piece of art is successful if it allows its observer or listener to empathize, I have to call her out for her not acknowledging that the piece of work she has most vocally defended was among those with the least personal writing, concentrating on beautifully rendered portraits and storytelling: The Hissing of Summer Lawns. By her own gauge, this one was handicapped. Blue and Hejira offered far more opportunity for empathetic traction. Maybe I'm oversimplifying easier access of first person perspective over storytelling narration, but it's equally myopic for Joni not to have a less absolute criteria for relegating her music to success or failure: adored vs. hated. It's very demanding as it takes great love and investment for listeners to find empathy within the purview of third party perspective, much as it works the same process to look through the painter's eyes to see consistency in their vision through their technique, and then interpret the content of the piece. Is it a case of short attention span that has disabled popular music audiences from making that investment? My understanding of what she revealed in this interview would indicate so. And God knows the last risk I'll ever take is to interpret something Joni Mitchell might have said. CC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 11:13:08 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: The Interview Great point. I think Joni has her usual memorized interview responses that are quotable and not that revealing, as perhaps do all celebrities. Jian pushed her a little past being able to regurgitate them and notice how she was lost for an answer on more than one occasion, staring at the ceiling thinking, perhaps, "damn, I don't have the answer memorized for that one." He was kind of amazed at how little she seemed proud of her life's musical legacy (Myrtle's training at work?) and he wanted to pursue this further but she seemed oddly diffident about answering, speaking in generalities and making highly dubious claims like "people hated Blue at the time" (my paraphrase). On Jun 12, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Anita G wrote: > Chris wrote: > "To you and I, Joni's tales, her >> meanderings, the pit-stops and tangents - they all hold awesome nuggets of >> insight. But to the average shmoe, they don't. Finding a balance to try and >> make it interesting for everyone is Jian's job. Then add in how nervous he >> must've been... I haven't always loved every little piece I've seen him do, >> but as an arts journo, he definitely knows what he's doing. And, say what >> you >> might, he did this very, VERY well." > > I am absolutely with you on this, Chris. I am a part-time amateur > interviewer and trying to get something that's interesting or tells > someone more about the interviewee demands skill - getting an > interviewee away from their usual 'story' requires good listening and > contact.To step up to interview someone of Joni's experience, > reticence and personal power is a tall order. I thought Jian was > really challenging at times and I think Joni really rose to the > challenge. There were some very sharp edits (goodness I wanted to hear > the Guerin wedding story in full) which must have jarred if you were > listening to audio. I so much preferred this to the old WOHAM > documentary which strikes me as somewhat controlled and insipid in > comparison to this latest more insightful, less sychphantic piece. > Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 12:17:40 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: "What can I fight and what can I accept?" "We didn't Molly-Coddle her" Are you listening, modern parents? On Jun 12, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Anita G wrote: > What a thread that could be. I wouldn't know where to start. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 22:33:38 +0000 From: Michael quebec Subject: Teaser video, Joni-Jian interview There's a cute teaser video up now on the National website http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/ where Jian gives his impressions of how he and his crew were received in Joni's home for the interview. Some great shots of her home, in the evening. Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #707 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------