From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #385 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, March 20 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 385 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: the woodstock we attend [LC Stanley ] Woodstock revisionist history [Paul Ivice ] Re: Woodstock revisionist history [Lori Renee Fye ] Re: Woodstock revisionist history [Lori Renee Fye ] Re: the woodstock we attend ["David J. Phillips" ] Re: Woodstock revisionist history [Paul Ivice ] Re: the woodstock we attend ["Randy Remote" ] Re: Flick Video & Lady of the Canyon question NJC now [Em ] Re: the woodstock we attend [Kevin Foehr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 06:19:31 -0700 (PDT) From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: the woodstock we attend Hi Lori, I think the older teen popular culture still draws from Woodstock and builds from it. Younger kids don't, but did they ever really? From what I see, Jimi Hendrix is the key to Woodstock for the current generation. If you ask them who Jimi is, they know, and most connect him with Woodstock and maybe fewer with the Monterey Pop festival. They know who Janis Joplin is too although maybe fewer. It could be that the upcoming teens won't know Jimi nor Janis, and Woodstock will fade, but it's impression will be part of what formed current culture even if it doesn't get credit in the future. So, it is like Joni and her song in that sense. But who knows, with Joni it could be like with VanGogh even though she's had much more success during her life than he ever did. I'm looking forward to seeing what the movie of Girls Like Us does with the youth. I agree that the movie of Woodstock put it in the minds of people in a way that nothing else did, and Joni's song was the theme song so that speaks volumes. Documentaries form opinions... sometimes too much. Memory is a physical thing and adaptation and habituation are all part of it so it is literally a fluid thing, plastic (not the polymer). Love, Laura ________________________________ From: Lori Renee Fye To: Randy Remote Cc: Ingrid Lochrenberg ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 8:18 PM Subject: Re: the woodstock we attend > It's icing on the cake, but would've been the same > without the song. I think you could argue that Woodstock > did more for Joni than the other way around. I don't know if I agree with that. Sure, Woodstock was one of the first events of its kind, if not *the* first. But these lines in particular absolutely captured the essence of what people were feeling and trying to accomplish back then: We are stardust We are golden And we've got to get ourselves Back to the garden The whole song captures it brilliantly, and immortalized the event for people who've been born in the generations since who will probably never know an era like that. (Not too many people seem to be interested in getting themselves back to any sort of garden these days, let alone understanding the meaning of "We are stardust / Billion year old carbon.") While the song must have made Joni a fair bit of money over the years, a lot of people still don't recognize that she wrote it ... but they for sure know the song, and, because of the existence of the song, they inquire about an event that is, bit by bit, fading from popular culture. Lori, STILL in Ohio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 04:18:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ivice Subject: Woodstock revisionist history While the song must have made Joni a fair bit of money over the years, a lot of people still don't recognize that she wrote it ... but they for sure know the song, and, because of the existence of the song, they inquire about an event that is, bit by bit, fading from popular culture. Lori, STILL in Ohio Again, I don't think this is true, either. What you are saying in heavily colored by the perspective of a fan of Joni, but not really rooted in reality. The song was an afterthought that may have crystallized the event in the minds of a smaller percentage of people, but it was the event itself that was historic and somewhat culture-shaking, not the song. The song may have been icing on the cake or the bow on the girt, but the event was historic in its own right and would have had just as big of an impact on American culture without the song, or someone else would have written a song 85 percent as good to fill that void. Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:41:19 -0400 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Woodstock revisionist history > Again, I don't think this is true, either. What you are saying in heavily > colored by the perspective of a fan of Joni, but not really rooted in > reality. > > The song was an afterthought that may have crystallized the event in > the minds of a smaller percentage of people, but it was the event itself > that was historic and somewhat culture-shaking, not the song. Actually, it was quite a long time before I knew that Joni Mitchell wrote the song. I didn't get into Joni's music until 1977, when I was almost 19 years old, and it was another few years before I bought LOTC and made that connection. Even before that, I thought the song had immortalized the event. I was eleven years old when Woodstock happened, and, as politically aware as I was for a kid that age, I was only dimly aware that anything was going on at Yasgur's Farm in 1969. Woodstock, at the time it happened, meant almost nothing to me. The song itself brought it to life for me. I didn't see documentaries about Woodstock until ... I don't even know when. I didn't watch a whole lot of television until I was well into my 40s. Just my experience, perhaps as a part of that smaller percentage. Lori, still in Ohio but Idaho-bound ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:58:17 -0400 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Woodstock revisionist history > After the Woodstock event itself there was the movie that was > widely shown in theaters and a "soundtrack" double ((or triple??) > album that sold millions of copies, and then another album of > more live music from Woodstock. The event generated plenty of > publicity and public awareness without Joni's song, though for at > least some people, and perhaps many, the song encapsulated > and symbolized the feelings and aura of Woodstock. I'm one of those people, then, because I missed all of the other stuff. Completely. I've always kind of traveled in my own musical world (almost never buying soundtracks, which I dislike to this day), and I have always been woefully behind on movies, current or otherwise. Lori, almost always pleased to be part of a small percentage :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:42:57 -0400 From: "David J. Phillips" Subject: Re: the woodstock we attend This is a a beautiful, profound, insight. Thanks. djp On 18/03/13 13:1229, Shari Eaton wrote: > Joni really was the > intended spirit guide for Woodstock. Scheduling difficulties aside. > > It's a bit like her inability to be the mother of her own child. Or > the lover to her mate. She has been afflicted with deep longing and > it was expressed so extraordinarily. Her howls ring through us all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:52:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ivice Subject: Re: Woodstock revisionist history From: Lori Renee Fye I was eleven years old when Woodstock happened, and, as politically aware as I was for a kid that age, I was only dimly aware that anything was going on at Yasgur's Farm in 1969. Woodstock, at the time it happened, meant almost nothing to me. The song itself brought it to life for me. I didn't see documentaries about Woodstock until ... I don't even know when. I didn't watch a whole lot of television until I was well into my 40s. Just my experience, perhaps as a part of that smaller percentage. Lori, still in Ohio but Idaho-bound Lori, After the Woodstock event itself there was the movie that was widely shown in theaters and a "soundtrack" double ((or triple??) album that sold millions of copies, and then another album of more live music from Woodstock. The event generated plenty of publicity and public awareness without Joni's song, though for at least some people, and perhaps many, the song encapsulated and symbolized the feelings and aura of Woodstock. Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:06:51 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: the woodstock we attend Certainly she captured some spirit of the event-real or idealized- with her song. But I don't think the song or CSNY's hit single brought Woodstock it's status as a landmark event. It was a mega-concert with most of the top rock (and folk) acts of the 60's, attended by 1/2 million peaceful young people who were undeterred by drenching rain and closed highways. Jimi, Janis, CSNY, etc etc...but what really made it an iconic festival was the movie, which was a rallying event at the height of the Vietnam War for millions more people who couldn't be there, and the people in the theaters were not singing along to the title song, they were singing along to Country Joe's anti-war anthem "I Feel Like I'm Fixin' To Die". And there's farmer Max Yasgur's famous line which captured the imagination of us all. The movie opens with CSNY's "Woodstock", and aerial photography of the hordes, very powerful. It's icing on the cake, but would've been the same without the song. I think you could argue that Woodstock did more for Joni than the other way around. RR From: "Ingrid Lochrenberg" > People may express incredulity at Joni not having been at Woodstock, but I > can't help wondering if Woodstock would really have 'been' without Joni > Mitchellb&b&I wonder if what she encapsulated from her inner spirit into > the song woodstock wasn't the 'real' woodstock that people think of when > thy think they're thinking of the festival. What would have made it not > just be another rained out festival that blended with others around the > country. I don't know much about what was unique to the actual event but > I certainly don't think it would have lived on in our imagination if it > wasn't for joni's Woodstock song. I don't think that Joni 'WASN'T AT' > Woodstockb&.I don't think she has missed out. Instead I think it is Joni's > Woodstock that the generations including her own have really > attendedb&..her song: that that is where the real ongoing magic emanates > from. She has evoked the attributes of the Festival, not with her memory, > but with her creative spirit. > > Ingrid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:49:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Flick Video & Lady of the Canyon question NJC now hi Robban, thank you so very much for taking the time to describe that. I am somewhat familiar with Michael Smith, especially 'Spoon River", since this band I used to like to listen to in the 70's used to cover it. Very spooky, very lovely. One of the videos on The Flick's Facebook page has him (I think it was him) telling a funny story about an elephant in a VW bus. From hearing the songs in the few videos, I'm impressed by the sincerity in the singing and performances. While I'm sure there was much levity (as in the VW bus telling) it seemed there was a certain gravity (in a good way) in the performances. Like maybe this all actually meant something and all this music was important in the grand scheme of things. Maybe there are currently live music scenes, now, where the music is similarly heartfelt. But from my own experiences, going out to see live music nowdays, it's different, with tons of sarcasm and cynicism suffusing the atmosphere at the gigs. Kind of a "weirder than thou" thing, which I'm thinking was not present in the coffee house days. But I could be wrong about that. thank you once again, for giving and sharing a bit of your past, and the past you shared with those people, back then. I very much appreciate it! Em ________________________________ From: Rob Argento To: 'Em' ; est86mlm@ameritech.net; joni@smoe.org Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:51 AM Subject: RE: Flick Video & Lady of the Canyon question NJC now I, too, enjoyed The Flick video. I was a small part of the Miami Folk scene until late 1965 when I was abducted by Uncle Sam, not to return to the USA for the next 35 years! But those early coffee house days were very formative for me and surely for others. There were only a few Coffee houses in Miami those days - The Flick in South Miami and The Euphoria in North Miami were the most dedicated. A few others popped up now and then but never really caught on at least not while I was still in Miami. Later on the Gaslight South opened up and booked many of the well known folk singers but were never centers of "family" as we were at The euphoria and The Flick. The video you mention is one of several submitted to YouTube by "Calico1947". At first I thought it was done by Mike Smith but I could be wrong. Mike continued as a song writer and a very good one at that. You will know him by his full name, Michael Peter Smith. In those early days of The Flick we had mostly local talent. Mike played quite a lot. Ron Kickasola and Bob Ingram were always on the bill. I remember when Estrella first showed up and became a regular, such a young girl sort of under everyone's protective wing. Vince Martin and Freddie Neil were often the headliners. And then there was a young fellow who seemed to bounce between Boston and Miami, a young student at the time, Tom Rush. Boston and Miami were the two terminal cities for the yo-yo ride of the folk performers up and down the East coast. The pay certainly was not very good those days, at least not in money- but in Life Quality, new friends, new music, sharing songs, food and lodgings. This was still the mid 1960's remember and America was still a very straight laced place. Looking at pictures of us back then it is hard to believe that people thought we were sort of weird. Half a decade later things, of course, had REALLY changed but by then I as long gone. Of course, most of the performers in this series of "The Flick" YouTube videos came after I had left. Joni apparently played there for the first time just after I was drafted. As well as Crosby, Buffet and Gambel Rogers. So I never got to see them. But Oz Bach played both the Flick and The Euphoria and in those early years. In fact, for a while, The Euphoria was the only place where he was allowed to play as he was black-listed due to a ridiculous misunderstanding for something he had said about LBJ - and, this being late 1964 or early 1965 relatively shortly after the JFK assassination, when Johnson was to motorcade in Miami, the Secret Service and FBI picked him up. Newspaper headlines and effectively blacklisted. Oz was later in Spanky and Our Gang. This was my first experience with systematic political paranoia affecting people's lives. I feel very lucky, indeed, to have been a part of that time and experience. The late 60's and 70's I was still an American though kicking around Europe, carrying my travlin' guitar, my Martin 0018, purchased used for $90 from an artist at the Euphoria and it still with me today. It was even strummed and picked on the stage of The Flick! Yes, it would be nice if someone had written about the South Florida music scene of those days. Mike Smith may very well have done that. In interviews he says that those 3 years were also for him very important. Those were good days and good memories. Life was good and those experiences became a part of me and enriched my entire life. /Robban in Sweden - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Em Sent: den 18 mars 2013 09:34 To: est86mlm@ameritech.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Flick Video & Lady of the Canyon question NJC now wow, viewing that gave a me a case of both the saddened and gladdened, simultaneously. I had a feeling after a while viewing that, that Gamble Rogers's face would appear. I had the good luck to get to see him a large handful of times here in Florida, from the mid-70's on through the early 80's I guess. What a trip that dude was, and what wonderful playing and singing and story telling. He's greatly missed here in Floriduh. He's probably one of the very best guitarists I've ever had the privilege to see and hear up close in a tiny club setting. I've mentioned this before, but I think it would be really cool if someone wrote a book about the south Florida folk scene of that time that The Flick was open. Evidently, I guess it drew a great many people. But when "folk scenes" are mentioned, Florida doesn't really come up except as a sentence or two in someone's biography. It would be really interesting to be able to get a sense of what life was like in that scene. Anyway, thanks to whoever put that vid on the JMDL. :) Em PS and thanks Laura for drawing my attention to it ________________________________ From: "est86mlm@ameritech.net" To: "joni@smoe.org" ; shari@sharieaton.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 12:47 PM Subject: Flick Video & Lady of the Canyon question Check-out THE FLICK video here: http://jonimitchell.com/library/video.cfm?id=156 Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 06:52:04 -0700 (PDT) From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: Art Nouveau Hi Gordon, Very interesting article. I really enjoyed reading it! I like the reference to Joni as a "wordsmith." I wonder how much thought went into Joni's race/cross dressing? I wonder if she intentionally thought about it for days or if it was s spur of the moment thing? Also, I wonder if a black man cross-race/gender dressed what the reaction would have been? I'm always interested in gender benders as a gay woman. Race is just icing on the cake. I love white Reeses peanut butter cups. They are best just out of the refrigerator. Thanks for posting. Enjoy the snow! Best wishes, Laura ________________________________ From: Gordon MacKie To: "joni@smoe.org" Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:10 AM Subject: Art Nouveau Hi All- greetings from lurkdom. This may have been well discussed but just in case .see below. Not read it yet. Genders Issue 56, Fall 2012 The Only Black Man at the Party Joni Mitchell Enters the Rock Canon By MILES PARKS GRIER http://www.genders.org/g56/g56_grier.html Gordon in snowy Glasgow Gordon Mackie Lecturer in Community Education University of Strathclyde Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences School of Applied Social Sciences LH627 Lord Hope Building 141 St James Road Glasgow G4 0LT TEL: 0141 444 8602 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 10:35:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Foehr Subject: Re: the woodstock we attend Hi Lori, You wrote: "people who've been born in the generations since who will probably never know an era like that." Sadly, isn't that the truth? The American cultural revolution that was the '60s is dead, and when we are gone the living memories will be replaced with historians distorted views. The right spins it as socialistic, amoral, and degenerate. Many think it was just about drugs and hedonism. "(Not too many people seem to be interested in getting themselves back to any sort of garden these days, let alone understanding the meaning of "We are stardust / Billion year old carbon.")" Absolutely. More people seem more "divorced" from nature all the time. I fear one day our society will lose all respect for it, to be replaced by a fear of wilderness and nature that will further contribute to the degradation of the environment and perhaps even the eventual destruction of the ecosystem and us with it. For example, the hope of turning around climate change by decreasing the use of carbon fuels appears to be diminishing to me. "They" are not going to stop burning fossil fuels until every last drop of oil and gas has been squeezed out the last fractured rock, imo. Young people now appear to care more about virtual reality than natural reality. "what people were feeling and trying to accomplish back then:" Yes, this memory will be lost first, and certainly that spirit has been gone for decades. And war and peace? I won't even go there. It's enough to point out that the USSR collapsed 20 years ago, but we are still locked in endless war. Not war with a national government that can be defeated and replaced, but with people who have ideas different from ours; people scattered around the world in dozens of countries, including our own. How can this "war" ever end? As Tony Blair said, "This is a war of ideas". And of course, ideas are bulletproof; so there can be no end to this war because the "military industrial complex" is too powerful and it must build weapons to generate profits. Talking and debating ideas doesn't generate billions in profits every year. Further, the government doesn't appear able to do battle with ideas anyway, only with violence. Our Nobel peace prize winning president won't even talk to N Korea or Iran, because it will look weak or some such nonsense. What chance is there of stopping or preventing any war when you won't talk to your "adversaries"? None. We had many things (ideas) right in the '60s, and we won some battles, with the Clean Air and Water Acts and to a lesser extent with Vietnam. But it also appears we lost the larger war. "Sitting in a park in Paris France Reading the news and it sure looks bad They won't give peace a chance That was just a dream some of us had" The 1960's are dead; long live the '60s! Kevin - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:18:47 -0400 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: the woodstock we attend > It's icing on the cake, but would've been the same > without the song. I think you could argue that Woodstock > did more for Joni than the other way around. I don't know if I agree with that. Sure, Woodstock was one of the first events of its kind, if not *the* first. But these lines in particular absolutely captured the essence of what people were feeling and trying to accomplish back then: We are stardust We are golden And we've got to get ourselves Back to the garden The whole song captures it brilliantly, and immortalized the event for people who've been born in the generations since who will probably never know an era like that. (Not too many people seem to be interested in getting themselves back to any sort of garden these days, let alone understanding the meaning of "We are stardust / Billion year old carbon.") While the song must have made Joni a fair bit of money over the years, a lot of people still don't recognize that she wrote it ... but they for sure know the song, and, because of the existence of the song, they inquire about an event that is, bit by bit, fading from popular culture. Lori, STILL in Ohio - ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #384 ***************************** - ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe - ------- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #385 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------