From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #245 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, February 20 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 245 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #234 [carmel rotem ] Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #234 [carmel rotem ] RE: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne ["Robert Sartorius" ] Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne [Richard Flynn ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:39:57 -0800 (PST) From: carmel rotem Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #234 thanks Jacky! I listened to that link, as well as to some other songs of her on youtube and I really like them. her style remindes me more of Sandy Denny than Joni, but anyway I'm sure she's influenced by both. really great find! Carmel. Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 09:03:38 -0500 (EST) From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Olivia Chaney I haven't written anything to the list for eons but I just had alert people to someone I have just discovered here in the UK. I was listening to a folk program on BBC Radio and heard a track called Ballade by Olivia Chaney and it was so beautiful I needed to know more about her. _http://ochaney.amazingtunes.com/tunes/168523_ (http://ochaney.amazingtunes.com/tunes/168523) I was amazed to find her lovely version of ACOY on YouTube. It's very much a tribute version and, of course, she is being described as the new British Joni Mitchell, something she will have to live with, but she is so talented. Have a listen. _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VipgQCfu824_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VipgQCfu824) Jacky - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:39:57 -0800 (PST) From: carmel rotem Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #234 thanks Jacky! I listened to that link, as well as to some other songs of her on youtube and I really like them. her style remindes me more of Sandy Denny than Joni, but anyway I'm sure she's influenced by both. really great find! Carmel. Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 09:03:38 -0500 (EST) From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Olivia Chaney I haven't written anything to the list for eons but I just had alert people to someone I have just discovered here in the UK. I was listening to a folk program on BBC Radio and heard a track called Ballade by Olivia Chaney and it was so beautiful I needed to know more about her. _http://ochaney.amazingtunes.com/tunes/168523_ (http://ochaney.amazingtunes.com/tunes/168523) I was amazed to find her lovely version of ACOY on YouTube. It's very much a tribute version and, of course, she is being described as the new British Joni Mitchell, something she will have to live with, but she is so talented. Have a listen. _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VipgQCfu824_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VipgQCfu824) Jacky - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:08:39 -0500 From: "Robert Sartorius" Subject: RE: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne Kevin, I am very much only an amateur musician, but in this case "impossible" similarities between TWOI and Judy's version of Suzanne appear in the melodic line (the notes you sing), the harmonic lines [the chordal presentation in terms of both tone (notes) and style (i.e., arpeggio style - picking rather than strumming)], and the rhythm (spacing and timing) of both the melodic and harmonic lines. In short, pretty much everything musical got lifted (apparently) from the Judy Collins arrangement for the first two lines of each verse - with modest varations in melody and harmony appearing in the third and fourth lines of the verses. The words were changed, but even they bear a strong resemblance to the style in which Suzanne was written. I have (long) seen this as a case of imitation being the highest form of flattery. In that sense, it was flattering of Joni to write TWOI, and right of her not to record it. (A cynic might speculate it was self-defensive, too, given the potential for a copyright infringement complaint). Three follow-up questions for the group: 1. Was LC's 67 recording of Suzanne more popular than JC's 66 recording ? I was very aware of JC's, but not of LC's. 2. If Joni had written TWOI before Suzanne, do you think she would have stood by silently/uncomplainingly all these years given the popularity of "Suzanne"? 3. Did she actually publish/copyright the music to TWOI? Or just the lyrics ? Bobsart From: Kevin Foehr [mailto:kfoehr@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:01 PM To: Mark; Robert Sartorius; joni@smoe.org; onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne Thanks Rob and Mark for your responses. It sounds like you guys know what you are talking about, and it does make sense too. Joni may have heard Suzanne via Judy and decided to use a similar melodic progression (or what ever it's called -- I'm not a musician) in one of her songs, but then decided not to record it, especially after LC's '67 recording of it became so popular. That's a bit of a shame as W of I has enough of Joni's unique style to obviously be her work, but there are also a few bars repeated two or thee times that smack of Suzanne a little too much and might have tainted the entire song and maybe her reputation too, which would have been an even greater shame! Thanks again for your comments and for sharing your research. Good work! Kevin _____ From: Mark To: Robert Sartorius ; joni@smoe.org; onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Cc: kfoehr@sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 9:09 PM Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne I was just researching some of what is known about Joni's relationship with Cohen. One source, 'Heck of a Guy - The Other Leonard Cohen Site', other being other than the official Leonard Cohen site, said that Judy Collins introduced Joni to Leonard at the Newport Folk Festival in 1967. Copyright on JoniMitchell.com for 'The Wizard of Is' says 1966. That would put it before the two met if what I read was accurate. According to Wikipedia, the song Suzanne was first recorded by Judy Collins on her 1966 album 'In My Life'. The lyrics were first released in Cohen's 1966 book of poetry, 'Parasites of Heaven'. So if all of that is true, it is possible that Joni had heard 'Suzanne' before she wrote 'The Wizard of Is'. Mark in Seattle Perhaps they had collaborated on developing the music and then she decided to let him have it instead of her? Or could she have written it first and then she let LC adapt it into Suzanne with his lyrics? And perhaps that is why it was never released on an album by Joni? Or was it released? I don't recall it on her early albums. Sorry if this was discussed already, but I looked back and couldn't find where it was." I rarely post without doing my homework/research/fact-checking, but I am going out on a limb here. I believe that I looked at this at one point in the past, and concluded to my satisfaction that Suzanne was written before Cohen/Mitchell became an item. That would make W of I something of a knockoff by Joni of an already written LC song. Which might also explain why she had the good sense not to record it. If I am wrong, I apologize to all (including Joni). Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:46:11 -0500 From: Richard Flynn Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne Since Joni was in a relationship with Cohen briefly from mid-1967 to early 1968, it is likely that she was completely conscious of the borrowing. Collins's "Suzanne" was very well known. Cohen' s song version was practically released in 1968 since "Songs of Leonard Cohen" was released in late December of 1967. Richard Flynn Professor of Literature Georgia Southern University https://sites.google.com/a/georgiasouthern.edu/rflynn/ On Feb 19, 2013, at 10:08 PM, "Robert Sartorius" wrote: > Kevin, > > > > I am very much only an amateur musician, but in this case "impossible" > similarities between TWOI and Judy's version of Suzanne appear in the > melodic line (the notes you sing), the harmonic lines [the chordal > presentation in terms of both tone (notes) and style (i.e., arpeggio style - > picking rather than strumming)], and the rhythm (spacing and timing) of both > the melodic and harmonic lines. > > > > In short, pretty much everything musical got lifted (apparently) from the > Judy Collins arrangement for the first two lines of each verse - with modest > varations in melody and harmony appearing in the third and fourth lines of > the verses. The words were changed, but even they bear a strong resemblance > to the style in which Suzanne was written. > > > > I have (long) seen this as a case of imitation being the highest form of > flattery. In that sense, it was flattering of Joni to write TWOI, and right > of her not to record it. (A cynic might speculate it was self-defensive, > too, given the potential for a copyright infringement complaint). > > Three follow-up questions for the group: > > > > 1. Was LC's 67 recording of Suzanne more popular than JC's 66 > recording ? I was very aware of JC's, but not of LC's. > > > > 2. If Joni had written TWOI before Suzanne, do you think she > would have stood by silently/uncomplainingly all these years given the > popularity of "Suzanne"? > > > > 3. Did she actually publish/copyright the music to TWOI? Or just > the lyrics ? > > > > > > Bobsart > > > > From: Kevin Foehr [mailto:kfoehr@sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:01 PM > To: Mark; Robert Sartorius; joni@smoe.org; onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne > > > > Thanks Rob and Mark for your responses. > > It sounds like you guys know what you are talking about, and it does make > sense too. Joni may have heard Suzanne via Judy and decided to use a > similar melodic progression (or what ever it's called -- I'm not a musician) > in one of her songs, but then decided not to record it, especially after > LC's '67 recording of it became so popular. > > That's a bit of a shame as W of I has enough of Joni's unique style to > obviously be her work, but there are also a few bars repeated two or thee > times that smack of Suzanne a little too much and might have tainted the > entire song and maybe her reputation too, which would have been an even > greater shame! > > Thanks again for your comments and for sharing your research. Good work! > > Kevin > > _____ > > From: Mark > To: Robert Sartorius ; joni@smoe.org; > onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org > Cc: kfoehr@sbcglobal.net > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 9:09 PM > Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne > > > I was just researching some of what is known about Joni's relationship with > Cohen. One source, 'Heck of a Guy - The Other Leonard Cohen Site', other > being other than the official Leonard Cohen site, said that Judy Collins > introduced Joni to Leonard at the Newport Folk Festival in 1967. Copyright > on JoniMitchell.com for 'The Wizard of Is' says > 1966. That would put it before the two met if what I read was accurate. > According to Wikipedia, the song Suzanne was first recorded by Judy Collins > on her 1966 album 'In My Life'. The lyrics were first released in Cohen's > 1966 book of poetry, 'Parasites of Heaven'. > > So if all of that is true, it is possible that Joni had heard 'Suzanne' > before she wrote 'The Wizard of Is'. > > Mark in Seattle > > > Perhaps they had collaborated on developing the music and then she decided > to let him have it instead of her? Or could she have written it first and > then she let LC adapt it into Suzanne with his lyrics? And perhaps that is > why it was > never released on an album by Joni? Or was it released? I don't recall it > on her early albums. > > Sorry if this was discussed already, but I looked back and couldn't find > where it was." > > I rarely post without doing my homework/research/fact-checking, but I am > going out on a limb here. I believe that I looked at this at one point in > the past, and concluded to my satisfaction that Suzanne was written before > Cohen/Mitchell became an item. That would make W of I something of a > knockoff by Joni of an already written LC song. Which might also explain why > she had the good sense not to record it. > > If I am wrong, I apologize to all (including Joni). > > Bobsart ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #245 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------