From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #169 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 29 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 169 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) [Lori Renee Fye ] guns and. . . njc [Marianne Rizzo ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:09:56 +0000 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) > p.s Lori, you are saying all this so eloquently that I'm just > adding a few thoughts to what you have already put across. > As you are finding, living overseas amongst people not carrying > guns, there is a much better quality of life when that constant > awareness of violence is not a part of everyday living. Dave, thank you. I appreciate your additions, particularly this: > As for children growing up surrounded by guns, is it any wonder > that will grow up thinking that owning a weapon brings respect, > something they crave but something they cannot be bothered to > earn the right way. I have been searching for a way to explain why I believe that children should not grow up around so many guns, particularly in schools. I often think about the innocence of children born anywhere in the world that changes so quickly because of growing up around constant bloodshed due to gun violence. Usually I'm thinking of the faces I see on TV, of kids in war zones. It's hard to make that case with Americans living in the US, where no official war is occurring. (The gun battles in urban areas don't seem to register with too many people as a type of war, even though they are.) In human beings of any age, constant fear is eventually masked and then completely taken over by something else. A defence mechanism kicks in and we become immune to violence just to hang on to some semblance of sanity. You nailed something I missed, though, Dave: the need for respect that isn't being learned, taught, or earned. There's some sort of saying about guns being an equalizer. In a culture where there seems to be no other way to feel respected, guns certainly are that. (More's the pity.) I also appreciate everyone's willingness to have this discussion here on the JMDL. I hesitated to even start writing about it, as we have an (old) history of political vitriol that I don't want to see resurrected. So far, so good (I think), but yes, as Bob mentioned please do remember to include the (NJC) tag in the subject line -- particularly for this discussion. Gun ownership in the US is a touchy subject. More so is any question of, or challenge to, "American values." I'm sure I've stepped on more than one red, white, and blue toe here already. One of the things I like to keep in mind is that this list (and Facebook, for that matter) is not just an American list. There are non-American voices and messages from which we can all benefit by hearing and reading. The US is viewed very differently from abroad, even amongst people who live in allied countries. I believe it would serve Americans well to remember that and pay attention to those views, as well as to consider the reasons why other nations are more peaceful, happy, and at least as successful. Thanks again, everyone. Lori Wales ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:04:16 -0800 From: "Eaton, Shari" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #165 I listened to the interview a second time and do see how the description each of you have offered applies perfectly to the topic. I was thrown off because here in good old god save america, we use worm to describe someone who isn't of very good character. From how you've each responded, I don't think anyone has listened to the interview or plans on it. I just want to share a few pieces that really stood out: "I will tell you a story about Joni Mitchell. Who was a friend of mine. And is also from Saskatchewan. And she used to listen to people from my reservation singing at night. Ya know? So she and I had a real connection. When I first heard her I thought she was just the best. And I was into turnings, which many people were not. And I taught her some and she just took it right up. Anyway, I carried her tape around in my purse for a very long time. Probably almost a year, trying to get people to listen to her. Nobody was interested. And I played it for my agent, and he didn't get it. But the young agent, in the office, came along and he got it right away. And he went down, to hear Joni and he became her manager, Elliot Roberts. And he and David Geffen made Joni's huge career." Lots of Joni, Shari On Jan 29, 2013, at 7:58 AM, clive sax wrote: > Subject: Re: buffy / joni NJC > > Does anyone know what she means by 'don't make snakes out of worms'?> > > In the UK we have an idiom 'Don't make mountains out of molehills' The meaning > of the expression, which I assume to be similar to worms > and snakes is to not make something big out of something small or a slight > difficulty into a huge problem. That kind of thing. > > >> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:09:33 -0500 >> From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org >> To: joni-digest@smoe.org >> Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #165 >> >> >> JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 29 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 165 >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >> -------- >> Re: buffy / joni NJC > [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] >> Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) > [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] >> An appeal (2) ["John van Tiel" > ] >> Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #150 [Rozanne Gates > ] >> Re: Shawn Colvin live stream tonight (Jan 25), 8 pm PST (free!) [Lori > Ren] >> Re: Lyrics [Catherine McKay > ] >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:28:13 -0500 >> From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com >> Subject: Re: buffy / joni NJC >> >> Does anyone know what she means by 'don't make snakes out of worms'?> >> >> I didn't see the videos but I'm guessing that she's saying that you >> shouldn't make something that is essentially harmless into something >> that's potentially dangerous. Worms are very soil enriching and I get a >> lot less spooked when I see a worm as opposed to seeing a snake. Having >> said that, snakes get a bad rap - only a very few will cause us any harm, >> most just slither around and keep the rodent population in check. Plus, >> "Worms and Ladders" doesn't have the same ring. >> >> Bob >> - ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The information transmitted is intended only for the person >> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain >> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. >> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are >> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, >> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon >> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please >> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. >> >> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual >> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. >> - ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:18:10 -0500 >> From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com >> Subject: Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) >> >> I don't have a gun, never have and never will. While I'm not a fan of >> hunting, I have many friends who are. Having a gun for self-defense is >> another matter. >> >> Fear is always the best salesman. The pro-gun folks always paint a picture >> of an intruder breaking into your home and there you are poised and ready >> with your gun and you blow him or her away. Well, most intruders are going >> to break into your home when it's empty as opposed to facing a >> confrontation. Odds are that of the things they steal, the gun will be >> one. Also, according to statistics, if you have a gun in your home, the >> more likely scenario is that YOU will get shot with your own gun by >> someone you know. Having a dog is a MUCH better deterrent than having a >> gun. Hardly a week goes by in SC that does not see a young kid getting >> shot and/or killed because a careless gun owner left one out. >> >> As for the need to solve the problem by putting MORE guns out there, we've >> all seen the photo of Reagan, surrounded by dudes with guns, right before >> he got shot. Columbine HAD an armed security guard. Fort Hood was >> populated with guys with guns. Seems like unless you're prepared to >> constantly walk around with your gun drawn it's not going to do you a >> whole lot of good. And as Lori says, who the heck wants to live like that? >> >> Bob >> >> >> - ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The information transmitted is intended only for the person >> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain >> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. >> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are >> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, >> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon >> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please >> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. >> >> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual >> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. >> - ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:52:38 +0100 >> From: "John van Tiel" >> Subject: An appeal (2) >> >> A few days ago I appealed to you, because my financial situation is such >> that I am threatened to lose my home. My stroke has paralyzed me so much >> that I have hardly been able to work and my income dropped by over 80%. 4 of >> you have reacted and I want to thank you for that. However, I am still in >> financial dire straits. I spent a significant amount of my savings on my >> sabbatical trip of Europe after Claudia and I parted ways and before my >> stroke. The medical collapse came completely unexpected and at the worst >> time in my financial life. The recovery period ate up all the remainder in >> medical costs as I also broke my arm and tore my Achilles heel during the >> recovery, which made it even worse (shopping was a crime and an expedition >> as I could not walk). By law I have no right to a state income here in the >> Netherlands . I still have medical help at homr 4 times a week (I cannot >> wash myself, I need a nurse to do that). But will I have a home? >> >> This is why I appeal to you once again to please help me financially. Please >> please please. I need money to eat and to keep my home. My address at Paypal >> is: johnvantiel@home.nl. I have always considered the JMDL as the combined >> friends that I was always looking for in my life, and they have always came >> up to that. Thank you. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:38:33 -0500 >> From: Rozanne Gates >> Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #150 >> >> Brilliant assessment Lori. >> >> Rozanne Gates >> >> >> on 1/28/13 7:45 PM, JMDL Digest at owner-joni-digest@smoe.org wrote: >> >>> >>> JMDL Digest Monday, January 28 2013 Volume 2013 : Number > 150 >>> >>> >>> >>> ========== >>> >>> TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >>> -------- >>> Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) [Lori Renee Fye > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:44:36 +0000 >>> From: Lori Renee Fye >>> Subject: Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) >>> >>>> They've managed to manipulate the news >>>> to target patriotic feelings that people >>>> have...right to bear arms >>> >>> I recently wrote something on Facebook about this "right to bear arms" >>> nonsense. I really don't know why it's so difficult to understand what > the >>> framers of the Constitution and its Amendments meant. Those men knew > very >>> well the proper usage of punctuation -- in particular the comma and the >>> semicolon -- and it's very obvious to me what they intended. Let's use > the >>> First and Second Amendments as examples. >>> >>> The text of the First Amendment is as follows: >>> >>> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or >>> prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of > speech, >>> or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to >>> petition the Government for a redress of grievances." >>> >>> Notice that the First Amendment contains semicolons. >>> >>> The reason it contains semicolons is because you can take the First >>> Amendment apart, so that its phrases can stand alone. All of it is still >>> the law, but one part is not dependent upon another part, or the entire >>> Amendment, to be the law. In other words, there are three parts to the >>> First Amendment, and they operate independently. >>> >>> In other words: >>> >>> 1) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or >>> prohibiting the free exercise thereof. >>> >>> 2) Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or of the >>> press. >>> >>> 3) Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people peaceably >>> to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. >>> >>> You don't have to be able to freely exercise religion or speech in order > to >>> peaceably assemble. You certainly CAN freely exercise religion or speech >>> while assembling, but you can also assemble and not say a word at all, or >>> even pray. (Oh, and by the way, the very first line in the First > Amendment >>> means that Christianity is not, and never has been, and hopefully never >>> will be, the national religion of the United States.) >>> >>> The text of the Second Amendment is as follows: >>> >>> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free > State, >>> the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." >>> >>> There is not a semicolon in the entire text of the Second Amendment. All > of >>> its parts were meant to be considered together as a whole. >>> >>> There really is no other way to interpret this, as it relies on basic, >>> established rules of English, particularly as they were established at > the >>> time the Constitution and the Amendments were written. >>> >>> Note the key words "well regulated" and "Militia." If the framers of the >>> Constitution and the Amendments had intended for every citizen to have > the >>> right to keep and bear Arms, the Amendment would say, simply: "The right >>> of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." >>> >>> That's not what it says, however. >>> >>> Therefore, citizens who are not members of a state's National Guard or > some >>> other well regulated militia do not have a Constitutional right to keep > and >>> bear Arms. >>> >>>> right to illegally bomb other countries back into >>>> the Stone Age on the off chance they might be >>>> doing something we think is bad, etc. >>> >>> I don't understand why the rest of the world puts up with that, >>> particularly from the only country that ever used something as horrifying >>> as the bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. >>> >>> Lori >>> Wales >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of JMDL Digest V2013 #150 >>> ***************************** >>> >>> ------- >>> To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. >>> Unsubscribe by clicking here: >>> mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe >>> ------- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:16:03 +0000 >> From: Lori Renee Fye >> Subject: Re: Shawn Colvin live stream tonight (Jan 25), 8 pm PST (free!) >> >> Wow ... I'd been wondering what happened to this post. It was a nice show. >> Hope some of you were able to catch it. >> >> Lori >> Wales >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:02:55 -0800 (PST) >> From: Catherine McKay >> Subject: Re: Lyrics >> >> One more thing and then I'll shut up about it. >> >> She may also be talking about >> anti-war demonstrators within the US itself, people who were literally > beaten >> with sticks by police and National Guard and so on. >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Catherine McKay >> >>> To: "jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com" >> ; Dave Blackburn >>> Cc: >> JMDL >>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 11:48:58 AM >>> Subject: >> Re: Lyrics >>> >>> >>> I'm not a historian, but I don't think Joni is writing as a >> Canadian, but as someone on the "other" side, whatever side that might > happen >> to be. Thinking back on my scant historical knowledge, I can't think of a > time >> that Canada has entered into a war to side with the US. If anything, > formerly >> as a colony and then as a member of the Commonwealth, we, along with >> Australia, New Zealand and others, went along with Great Britain. We were > in >> WWI and WWII well before the USA, because we were supporting Great Britain. > We >> had some involvement in the Korean Conflict, as did other members of the >> Commonwealth. We didn't get involved in Viet Nam, or Iraq. We have had, > still >> have, people in Afghanistan and parts of Africa, as part of a UN > Peacekeeping >> Force. >>> >>> I believe Joni is talking about how one country can be allies with >> another and >> then things turn and your former friend suddenly becomes the >> enemy. ("You say we have turned, like the enemies you've earned, but we can >> remember the good things you are." She's lamenting what the US once >> represented, and that it has become a warmongering nation and that, at any >> moment, it can turn against its former allies. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com" >> >>>> To: Dave Blackburn >>>> Cc: JMDL >>>> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 4:52:55 PM >>>> Subject: Lyrics >>>> >>>>> I got to wondering whether the line "you raise your >> sticks and cry and I >>>> fall, oh my friend" might in fact be "and I follow, my >> friend." To me that >>>> makes more sense, as America tends to strongarm its >> allies into going along >>>> with its foreign wars. Do we know authoritatively >> that it is "fall"?> >>>> >>>> No, we don't know any lyrics authoritatively. If I >> remember right, we were >>>> hopefully anticipating the complete book of lyrics >> and poems but it did not >>>> update "buoy winds" to "bully winds". >>>> >>>> While >> this is disappointing, it also allows you to interpret as you will. >>>> >>>> I >> like your interpretation because Canada is not attacked by the US. Instead >>>> Canada is dragged along, into the fight. She >> calls Johnny "my good friend" >>>> after all. >>>> >>>> Jim L >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of JMDL Digest V2013 #165 >> ***************************** >> >> ------- >> To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. >> Unsubscribe by clicking here: >> mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe >> ------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:11:25 -0500 From: Marianne Rizzo Subject: guns and. . . njc If someone came into my house for what ever reason and I had a gun and I know for certain that they were unwelcomed and they could potentially harm me I would definitely shoot them even if they were not armed (but I do not have a gun) I can understand you shooting a dog that was attacking you, Laura. Are you saying, though, that you would shoot someone who's breaking into your house? If so, would you wait until you could determine they were armed, or would you just shoot them on sight? Lori Wales ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #169 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------