From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #1682 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, November 22 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1682 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Strange Boy [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Strange Boy [Catherine McKay ] RE: Hejira in HD ["ron" ] Re: Chogyam Trungpa [Dave Blackburn ] RE: Strange Boy [Mike B ] Re: Strange Boy [Anita ] The Strange Boy [kbhla@fastmail.fm] RE: Chogyam Trungpa ["Susan E. McNamara" ] Chogyam Trungpa [Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com] RE: Strange Boy ["Susan E. McNamara" ] JFK assassination: When a nation coming of age lost its youth. [simon@icu] Re: Strange Boy [Les Irvin ] Hejira in HD NJC now [jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com] Re: A Strange Boy [Anita G ] Re: A Strange Boy [Anita ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 07:56:20 -0800 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Strange Boy Yes, thanks for that angle Mike. Its very persuasive. I always thought of the line as meaning the boy had a scientific view of the world and thought of objects in motion as vectors or waveforms, but I like your reading better as it ties in the surfing metaphor that evokes youth. The Larry Carlton question is more up my alley. A Strange Boy is the only tune on Hejira where you hear the blues being played and Larry is a master of tasty blues licks, which fit this song well as it is based on a pentatonic riff. He is using both a compressor pedal on his guitar to squash the attack of the notes and beautifully controlled volume pedal swells so he can create effects such as what you are hearing. He does this volume swell thing throughout the album which gives Hejira some of the spaciness we hear. In a larger context the world of guitar effects was just getting started in the mid 70s and Hejira shows off many of the brand new guitar sounds that could be achieved, combining phase shifters, chorus, delays, compression and double tracking in wide stereo. Having just played this album live I paid particular attention to copping the right effects used on each song and we used double tracked guitar parts on three of the tunes. Part of the brilliance of Hejira is the sonic journey and we tried to present that. Dave On Nov 22, 2013, at 7:23 AM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > Well Mike, that's brilliant and makes a point that I never thought of...I > could never get the image out of my mind of one of those photographs that > shows time-lapse movement of cars where it looks like one long wave. NOW, > thanks to you, I do think Joni's relating his skating through traffic with > how he envisions the cars, as if he's surfing through waves. > > Further to that, when she sings "now <<<*I*>>> am surf rising..." she's > alluding to the idea of him moving through her, physically and > emotionally, in the same manner he surfs/skates through the cars, with > grace and havoc. > > Man, these lyrics are even better than I thought. Thanks again for your > thoughts. > > Bob > > NP: XTC, "Your Dictionary" > > > > > From: Mike B > To: "Bob.Muller@Fluor.com" , > Cc: "joni@smoe.org" > Date: 11/22/2013 10:09 AM > Subject: RE: Strange Boy > > > > It's an intriguing line, Bob, especially when the thought then jumps to > 'He see the damage in my face'. > I take it the first two lines refer to the boyfriend's boyish > recklessness, when out in traffic either on his skateboard (if he's the > yellow skateboarder) or just behind the wheel, he plays traffic like a > game, with no sense of the danger involved. Would that be seen as a fairly > stereotypical male approach? Certainly a young male's attitude. Whereas in > the last line we're also told of his sensitivity, his acceptance of the > older woman and the knocks she's taken in life. (Is there a subconscious > association here of dangerous traffic, accidents, damaged face?). I love > the ambiguity of the 'damage' line: is she embarrassed by the signs of her > age, in the company of a younger lover, or is she touched that he has that > insight and accepts her as she is? Or both... > One other element in the magic mix is of course Larry Carlton's superb > guitar work. Does anybody know how he gets that weird traffic-horn sound > in the very last seconds of the fade-out? Or is that a sound engineer's > trick? > M > > To: charliebu@hotmail.co.uk > CC: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Strange Boy > From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:33:44 -0500 > > Mike, thanks for that - what do you (or any of you) make of these lines: > > "He sees the cars as sets of waves, sequences of mass and space" > > ? > > Bob > > NP: Randy Newman, "The World Isn't Fair" > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 07:27:28 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Strange Boy Here's my take on that. It's like someone mentally calculating how much time and space they will need to jump that wave, or ride that wave, or whatever the hell you call it. I used to joke about my cats looking up at something before jumping, saying they were calculating time and distance, wind velocity and so on, in order to make that jump up onto some higher surface. Demonstrating that cats are really brilliant mathematicians and physicists. I imagine the strange boy is looking at the cars that way, probably without even consciously thinking about it. He needs to know how fast to go in order to manoeuvre through them, based on how fast they're going, how far apart they are, where he is in relationship to them. I'm sure most athletes operate that way. And Joni thinks that, when it comes to mathematics, she's got static in the attic. She knew more than she thought she did. >________________________________ > From: "Bob.Muller@Fluor.com" >To: Mike B >Cc: "joni@smoe.org" >Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:33:44 AM >Subject: Strange Boy > > >Mike, thanks for that - what do you (or any of you) make of these lines: > >"He sees the cars as sets of waves, sequences of mass and space" > >? > >Bob > >NP: Randy Newman, "The World Isn't Fair" > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The information transmitted is intended only for the person >or entity to which it is addressed and may contain >proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. >If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are >hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, >distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon >this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please >contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > >Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual >sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. >------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 19:05:35 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: RE: Hejira in HD Thanks for the heads up everyone. I have just upgraded to a hi - res capable dac, using a squeeze box touch as a transport. It is already a massive improvement over my previous dac / cd player when just playing a std flac file. Can't wait to hear the hd version... Ron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:14:06 -0800 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Chogyam Trungpa Yes, Simon, I think thats well established, but what was interesting to me was how her meeting him may have crept into lines of A Strange Boy as well. It appears the 21 year old Trungpa had chutzpah (my new lyric) and fled the brutal Maoist regime that was sacking Tibet in 1960 across the Himalayas, 4 months on horseback and 6 months on foot with scarcely any food since as Buddhists they refused to kill any creatures. A party of 300 at the start, only a dozen or so made it to safety in India, dying of starvation or capture. The Indian government flew Trungpa to the UK in 1963 where he studied at Oxford, then he moved up to Scotland and founded the first Buddhist Center in the country, then in 1970 to the US and formed the Naropa Institute in Boulder CO, which is presumably where Joni met him. Having traversed the Himalayas on foot evading capture by the Chinese is it any wonder he drank and womanized? Dave p.s It seems posts to this list lose their apostrophes and gain spurious characters here and there. If my it(apostrophe)s look like its I swear it(apostrophe)s not my grammar! On Nov 22, 2013, at 8:48 AM, Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com wrote: > > Hi Dave - > > Maybe this is old news but I was just reading about this from some other > post that appeared on here recently Joni credits Chogyam Trungpa with > helping her beat her cocaine addiction and she wrote Refuge of the Roads > about her experiences with him . He was allegedly the friendly spirit who > drank and womanized. > > > http://blogs.dharma.art.br/2010/10/joni-mitchell-and-chogyam-trungpa/ > > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 18:31:27 -0800 > From: Dave Blackburn > Subject: Re: A Strange Boy > > We just watched a wonderful Netflix documentary on Chogyam Trungpa > called.wait for it.. Crazy Wisdom: The life and times of Chogyam Trungpa > Rinpoche. > > http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70247854?strkid=1294164915_0_0&trkid=222336&movieid=70247854 > > > Having just watched it it seems entirely plausible that Joni conflated her > time with him to her time with the strange boy. "He asked me to be patient, > well I failed could totally be something she experienced with the Buddhist > master, as could his crazy wisdom holding on to something wild of course. > > There is lots of 60s and 70s footage though no mention of Joni. Highly > recommended for us Hejira scholars. > > Dave > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is intended for the use > of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > information that is privileged, proprietary , confidential and exempt from > disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that > any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, > please notify the sender and erase this e-mail message immediately. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:08:02 +0000 From: Mike B Subject: RE: Strange Boy Ah now, I didn't get as far as making that direct connection with the boy surfing *her*, but of course! Brilliant! I like both Anita and Catherine's takes too. Many thanks Dave too for the fascinating info on Larry C's guitar playing. M To: charliebu@hotmail.co.uk CC: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Strange Boy From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:23:57 -0500 Well Mike, that's brilliant and makes a point that I never thought of...I could never get the image out of my mind of one of those photographs that shows time-lapse movement of cars where it looks like one long wave. NOW, thanks to you, I do think Joni's relating his skating through traffic with how he envisions the cars, as if he's surfing through waves. Further to that, when she sings "now <<<*I*>>> am surf rising..." she's alluding to the idea of him moving through her, physically and emotionally, in the same manner he surfs/skates through the cars, with grace and havoc. Man, these lyrics are even better than I thought. Thanks again for your thoughts. Bob NP: XTC, "Your Dictionary" From: Mike B To: "Bob.Muller@Fluor.com" , Cc: "joni@smoe.org" Date: 11/22/2013 10:09 AM Subject: RE: Strange Boy It's an intriguing line, Bob, especially when the thought then jumps to 'He see the damage in my face'. I take it the first two lines refer to the boyfriend's boyish recklessness, when out in traffic either on his skateboard (if he's the yellow skateboarder) or just behind the wheel, he plays traffic like a game, with no sense of the danger involved. Would that be seen as a fairly stereotypical male approach? Certainly a young male's attitude. Whereas in the last line we're also told of his sensitivity, his acceptance of the older woman and the knocks she's taken in life. (Is there a subconscious association here of dangerous traffic, accidents, damaged face?). I love the ambiguity of the 'damage' line: is she embarrassed by the signs of her age, in the company of a younger lover, or is she touched that he has that insight and accepts her as she is? Or both... One other element in the magic mix is of course Larry Carlton's superb guitar work. Does anybody know how he gets that weird traffic-horn sound in the very last seconds of the fade-out? Or is that a sound engineer's trick? M To: charliebu@hotmail.co.uk CC: joni@smoe.org Subject: Strange Boy From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:33:44 -0500 Mike, thanks for that - what do you (or any of you) make of these lines: "He sees the cars as sets of waves, sequences of mass and space" ? Bob NP: Randy Newman, "The World Isn't Fair" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 16:36:30 +0000 From: Anita Subject: Re: Strange Boy Just wanted to send my appreciation of the discussion here. Sets of great waves coming from JMDL Thank you Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:09:21 -0800 From: kbhla@fastmail.fm Subject: The Strange Boy I recalled an interview where Joni discussed the Strange Boy and background behind all the songs on Hejira and just found it here http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=1459&from=search The excerpt is below. He wasn't really a younger man but maybe had a case of charming arrested development ;-) While searching for this I found another article where Seal cites it as his favorite Joni song. It is my favorite song on Hejira and I've always loved Kay Ashley's cover of it, too. Kakki A Strange Boy Mitchell's sometimes cruel, sometimes self-critical account of the affair she had with one of two men with whom she drove from L.A. to New England in the spring of 1976. One of the men was a former boyfriend from Australia, the other--the "strange boy" of the title--was an airline steward in his 30's still living with his parents. "He was psychologically astute and severely adolescent at the same time," she remembers. "There was something seductive and charming about his childlike qualities, but I never harboured any illusions about him being my man. He was just a big kid in the end." The relationship lasted only a short time, but its flaming early days in an uptight bed and breakfast are recounted in one of the album's memorable verses: "While the boarders were snoring/Under crisp white sheets of curfew/We were newly lovers then/We were fire in the stiff-blue-haired-house rules." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 17:42:15 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Chogyam Trungpa Does Joni say anywhere why she changed the lyric to "a drunk with sage's eyes?" My guess is she felt it was more respectful, but it would be interesting to hear her take. But then that begs the question, what's worse, a drunk or a womanizer? Haha! Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Dave Blackburn Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 12:14 PM To: Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com Cc: JMDL JMDL Subject: Re: Chogyam Trungpa Yes, Simon, I think thats well established, but what was interesting to me was how her meeting him may have crept into lines of A Strange Boy as well. It appears the 21 year old Trungpa had chutzpah (my new lyric) and fled the brutal Maoist regime that was sacking Tibet in 1960 across the Himalayas, 4 months on horseback and 6 months on foot with scarcely any food since as Buddhists they refused to kill any creatures. A party of 300 at the start, only a dozen or so made it to safety in India, dying of starvation or capture. The Indian government flew Trungpa to the UK in 1963 where he studied at Oxford, then he moved up to Scotland and founded the first Buddhist Center in the country, then in 1970 to the US and formed the Naropa Institute in Boulder CO, which is presumably where Joni met him. Having traversed the Himalayas on foot evading capture by the Chinese is it any wonder he drank and womanized? Dave p.s It seems posts to this list lose their apostrophes and gain spurious characters here and there. If my it(apostrophe)s look like its I swear it(apostrophe)s not my grammar! On Nov 22, 2013, at 8:48 AM, Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com wrote: > > Hi Dave - > > Maybe this is old news but I was just reading about this from some > other post that appeared on here recently Joni credits Chogyam > Trungpa with helping her beat her cocaine addiction and she wrote > Refuge of the Roads about her experiences with him . He was allegedly > the friendly spirit who drank and womanized. > > > http://blogs.dharma.art.br/2010/10/joni-mitchell-and-chogyam-trungpa/ > > > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 18:31:27 -0800 > From: Dave Blackburn > Subject: Re: A Strange Boy > > We just watched a wonderful Netflix documentary on Chogyam Trungpa > called.wait for it.. Crazy Wisdom: The life and times of Chogyam > Trungpa Rinpoche. > > http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70247854?strkid=1294164915_0_0&trkid > =222336&movieid=70247854 > > > Having just watched it it seems entirely plausible that Joni conflated > her time with him to her time with the strange boy. "He asked me to be > patient, well I failed could totally be something she experienced > with the Buddhist master, as could his crazy wisdom holding on to something wild of course. > > There is lots of 60s and 70s footage though no mention of Joni. Highly > recommended for us Hejira scholars. > > Dave > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is intended > for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and > may contain information that is privileged, proprietary , confidential > and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, > you are notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of > this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify the sender and erase this e-mail > message immediately. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:48:35 -0500 From: Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com Subject: Chogyam Trungpa Hi Dave - Maybe this is old news but I was just reading about this from some other post that appeared on here recently Joni credits Chogyam Trungpa with helping her beat her cocaine addiction and she wrote Refuge of the Roads about her experiences with him . He was allegedly the friendly spirit who drank and womanized. http://blogs.dharma.art.br/2010/10/joni-mitchell-and-chogyam-trungpa/ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 18:31:27 -0800 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: A Strange Boy We just watched a wonderful Netflix documentary on Chogyam Trungpa called.wait for it.. Crazy Wisdom: The life and times of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70247854?strkid=1294164915_0_0&trkid=222336&movieid=70247854 Having just watched it it seems entirely plausible that Joni conflated her time with him to her time with the strange boy. "He asked me to be patient, well I failed could totally be something she experienced with the Buddhist master, as could his crazy wisdom holding on to something wild of course. There is lots of 60s and 70s footage though no mention of Joni. Highly recommended for us Hejira scholars. Dave - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary , confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and erase this e-mail message immediately. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:27:50 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Strange Boy I think this is another metaphor in the theme of the personal to the metaphysical ... I agree with Dave that there was something about the meeting with Chogyam Trungpa that influenced this theme ... the genius of innocence to see patterns in creation ... he mirrored me back simplified ... Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:34 AM To: Mike B Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Strange Boy Mike, thanks for that - what do you (or any of you) make of these lines: "He sees the cars as sets of waves, sequences of mass and space" ? Bob NP: Randy Newman, "The World Isn't Fair" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:13:06 -0500 From: simon@icu.com Subject: JFK assassination: When a nation coming of age lost its youth. CBS Sunday Morning - Nov. 17, 2013: Bill Flanagan says the murder of the young president marked Americans' turn to disillusionment and regret. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLKpJS-x1Y andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - simonM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:53:27 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Strange Boy Has anyone seen the film "Koyaanisqatsi"? Actually, who hasn't seen it would be a more accurate question. The first time I watched this, I was immediately reminded of the "he sees the cars as sets of waves" line during the time lapse of the traffic jam on the freeway. Since then, I've always interpreted Joni as saying here that the strange boy saw more of the "big picture" than did she. On 11/22/2013 7:33 AM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > Mike, thanks for that - what do you (or any of you) make of these lines: > "He sees the cars as sets of waves, sequences of mass and space" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 08:49:16 -0500 From: jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com Subject: Hejira in HD NJC now One thing bugs me about these hi-rez files- there is never any provenance given. In the vinyl reissue world, there is often a back story: is it sourced from a 16/44 file made in 1985, or from a production dupe, or did they find the uncompressed, 2 track master? Who made the A->D transfer? There are often cult following around the various mastering gurus. None of that has emerged in the high rez world. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 17:26:29 +0000 From: Anita G Subject: Re: A Strange Boy As with many songs that drift in and out of our discussions, this led me to dig out 'Strange Boy', listen again and re-read the lyric. I feel so boring with writing to JMDL (yet again) my 'Oh My God, the woman is brilliant', but that is what happens to me. What a startling set of images, what insight, imagination and feel. The spell binding mood of her guitar..... I am also struck by the strange boy weaving a 'course of grace and havoc' and find myself thinking of my dear friend, Mr Muller, who only ever seems full of grace and no havoc from here. I remember a really stunning version that Kay Ashley performed I think for a JONi.com fundraiser and how I would have LOVED seeing the Mutts and Robin's take on this one. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 20:52:02 +0000 From: Anita Subject: Re: A Strange Boy A Master Chef indeed! Fabulous, Anita On 21 Nov 2013, at 19:44, Dave Blackburn wrote: > No, I just used a wooden spoon and a bowl. > > > On Nov 21, 2013, at 11:40 AM, Anita wrote: > >> On 21 Nov 2013, at 19:30, Dave Blackburn wrote: >> >>> Herebs Kaybs version again, as recorded for the 2010 fundraiser. I mixed it for her. >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/km3bjj6 >>> >> >> Dave, when you mixed it, did you sample at 192 KHz (more than quadruple the rate of a CD which runs at 44.1kHz) and make it work by simply substituting better written code for the Macs audio engine Core Audio? >> >> Anita :-)) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1682 ****************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------