From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #168 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 29 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 168 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) [Catherine McKay ] Kinder, gentler (njc) ["kbhla" ] Tales of Joni Mitchell @ 54 Below ["Kimel, Taryn" ] Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) [Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) Well put, Bob. It truly IS fear that makes people suspect everyone else and therefore be led to believe they NEED a gun. I seriously doubt that anyone would be able to be ready for someone breaking in, so that they're armed and prepared to shoot. And, to be honest, I would not trust myself with a gun. I might shoot someone! >________________________________ > From: "Bob.Muller@Fluor.com" >To: Lori Renee Fye >Cc: Catherine McKay ; "joni@smoe.org" ; Phyliss S Ward >Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:18:10 AM >Subject: Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) > > >I don't have a gun, never have and never will. While I'm not a fan of hunting, I have many friends who are. Having a gun for self-defense is another matter. > >Fear is always the best salesman. The pro-gun folks always paint a picture of an intruder breaking into your home and there you are poised and ready with your gun and you blow him or her away. Well, most intruders are going to break into your home when it's empty as opposed to facing a confrontation. Odds are that of the things they steal, the gun will be one. Also, according to statistics, if you have a gun in your home, the more likely scenario is that YOU will get shot with your own gun by someone you know. Having a dog is a MUCH better deterrent than having a gun. Hardly a week goes by in SC that does not see a young kid getting shot and/or killed because a careless gun owner left one out. > >As for the need to solve the problem by putting MORE guns out there, we've all seen the photo of Reagan, surrounded by dudes with guns, right before he got shot. Columbine HAD an armed security guard. Fort Hood was populated with guys with guns. Seems like unless you're prepared to constantly walk around with your gun drawn it's not going to do you a whole lot of good. And as Lori says, who the heck wants to live like that? > >Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:12:33 -0500 From: simon@icu.com Subject: TapeTreeS & The 2nd Fret Here's an older message and question from J. Gonzales > Hi all - long time lurker and almost non-poster since TTT came out! > I still enjoy following everything, though. > > I was wondering if anyone has digitized the old JMDL Tape Trees? > I was cleaning out some stuff and found my Troubadors of Folk show ('93?), Wells Fargo Theatre show > and the All Things Considered from May '93 in a box and wished I could listen to them again. If anyone > has an easy set of files or something to access (don't wanna put anyone out here), I'd love to be able to > bring those into my collection again! > > Jerome JEROME, I offered the JMDL TapeTree recordings to JMDL members in two formats. One could obtain Cassette recordings or DAT recordings. (DAT = Digital Audio Tape) There were also a few requests for VHS Hi-Fi recordings. Since the last TapeTree (April 1999), CDr copies of a number of the TapeTree recordings have been sent to members, and they of course, have shared them with other members. TapeTrees are no longer a preferred method of distribution in this the age of Digital UpLoads and DownLoads. All but two of the JMDL TapeTrees were Seeded from my collection. My collection began in 1971 and has been growing ever since. Recently I finally began the process of transferring all of my DAT recordings to a computer Hard Drive. This will make it a lot easier to continue sharing these recordings with JMDL members using a file transfer service such as YouSendIt, or DropBox. It's been slow going for a number of reasons, but I am making progress. STAY TUNED! Joni Music Will Be UpLoaded via YouSendIt, later today. andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - simonM http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/ PS: for the benefit of those who don't know what a TapeTree WAS ... I include the following The TapeTree FAQ. TapeTree 101 MOTIVATION A little propaganda as to the motivation for running trees ... First and foremost it is to share with others quality Joni Mitchell music that others have been lucky enough to obtain. Trees also serve the purpose of helping new tape collectors to get their collections going. People who are new to tape collecting (or to Joni Mitchell's music) are welcome and encouraged to sign up for the Tape Trees. Another motivation for running trees is to try to discourage people from feeling the need to partake of the large commerical bootleg market out there. Commercial bootleg producers are largely seen to be disrespectful of an artist's rights by cashing in on the artist's music without any consideration for the artist. The TREE SEED The first step in the Tree process is finding the seed tape. A seed tape is the tape that will ultimately be used to make everyone's copy. These days recording equipment has gotten so small that almost every show gets taped one way or another. So it's important to seek out a tape worthy to seed the tree. The qualities that are important for a seed tape is that the sound quality be very good to excellent - or that the tape be of a critical event - regardless of quality. The sound quality for tapes degrades with each generation as hiss is introduced in the copying process (This is only true for analog tapes - DAT tapes do not suffer from that kind of degradation). So if we start off with a poor sounding seed tape, the leaf tapes (see below) will be unlistenable. Basically, the standards one uses to decide if a seed tape is "tree worthy" are subjective. They might therefore be lower if the seed is from an older show, or a show where no other copy exists - especially if the particular show includes a "rarity" of some kind. BRANCHES and LEAVES Once the seed is in hand, the next step is to select the branch leaders. The branch leaders are the folks who volunteer to spin 3 or 4 (up to 10!) copies of the show for the "Leaves", as in this inverted tree structure: Seed Tape | +----------+------------+----------+----------+ | | | | | Branch Branch Branch Branch Branch | | +---------+----------+---------+----------+----------+ | | | | | Leaf Leaf Leaf Leaf Leaf BRANCH LEADER SELECTION It would be nice if a tree only required the Tree Administator to make branch copies and the branch leaders make the leaf copies. However in practice there's more to it, since the tree administrator has to select the branch leaders. The criteria for branch leader selection is most heavily dependent on the quality of the dubbing equipment. In the best of worlds, all branch leaders would have two top of the line single decks (as opposed to dubbing decks) with 3 heads in the tape transports. This would ensure the best copies for everyone. In practice this is not likely, since most of us are not wealthy. Thus the tree administrator tries to ensure that the branch leaders have at least fairly good recording equipment. Another factor for branch leader selection that sometimes is used is to consider the track record of the branch volunteer in previous trees/trades. Ideally, again, we choose people who take the responsibility of being a branch leader seriously over those who have repeatedly caused delays. There are two ways the a tree gets going: The first is to find the seed, spin the branch tapes, open up the tree to everyone for sign-up, and THEN select the branch leaders from the general sign-up population. Another method is to have a separate call for branch leader volunteers BEFORE the tree is opened up for leaf sign-up. This makes the administration a bit easier, and in some cases gives the branch leaders a little breathing room because they can get their copies before the full tree structure gets posted. DISTRIBUTING BRANCH TAPES Once the branch leaders are chosen, the Tree Administator makes arrangements to send the branch tapes to the branch leaders. This can be accomplished by either arranging a tape trade for the branch tapes, sending blanks plus return postage, or in some cases sending cash ONLY for the price of the blank tapes and postage. The practice of sending "double blanks" for TreeTapes is not allowed! If you are asked to 'PAY' in any way for the music - please blow the whistle on the culprit. You should be willing to make your fellow Joni fans a copy of the show for just the blanks it would take to make the copy, plus return postage. Not everyone agrees with this practice but it will true for all Trees "sanctioned" by the Joni list. GATHERING LEAVES Now that the branch leaders have their tapes, the next step is to open the tree for general sign-up. Trees are run in a spirit of international cooperation, so it may be necessary to have branches in Canada, Europe, Australia and elsewhere. The branch leaders from each nation take care of the leaves from their particular regions, where possible, to simplify mailing and currency transactions (where necessary). However sometimes there will be a fan from another nation on a branch. The tree administrator should get the okay from the branch leader before assigning such leaves to them, though. The tree is generally open for sign-up for 2-4 weeks. After the sign-up is closed, the tree structure is designed and then posted to the list. The BRANCH - LEAF Connection Note: Leaves are responsible for contacting their branch leader to make arrangements for obtaining their tapes! If you, the leaf, have something to trade for your tape(s) then by all means set up a trade. If you have nothing to trade, just send blanks and return postage. After all, one of the motives for running trees is to help beginners get started. Note that it's not cool to trade for blanks just to save yourself some trouble. If you've got trade material, take the effort to make a trade with the branch leader - after all, that branch leader's got a lot more work to do than you do, so help to make him or her happy (so that they will do it again and again and keep the trees going!) Branch leaders and leaves should arrange recording criteria (i.e. Dolby) amongst themselves. Sometimes the tree administrator will arrange to have certain branches that are "Dolby only" or "No-Dolby only". But generally the Branch leader gets a Dolby-B tape unless special arrangements are made. DISTRIBUTING LEAF TAPES If you have set up a trade with your branch leader, this part is easy. Just mail your trade tape to the branch leader and then they will mail you the Tree tape. If you are trading for blanks, send the blank tapes in a padded envelope (suitable for sending your tape back to you) and enough postage to cover the cost of mailing the tape back to you. That's generally about $1.00-$1.25, for a single tape (in the US). Please include your name, address, and email address with any blank tape you send, along with a note specifying what tree the blank tape is for. Since tree administrators and branch leaders have several trees/trades going on at once, this is very important! PET PEEVES * Branch leaders who don't take their responsibilities seriously. Don't volunteer to be a branch leader if you're not going to have the time to make the copies you VOLUNTEERED for. * Leaves that disappear. Please don't sign up for the tree if you're not serious about wanting a copy. Sure, legitimate reasons arise that can cause you to be unable to fulfill your committments. If this is the case, you should contact the involved parties to alert them. * Lack of feedback from leaves. If you have trouble arranging to get your tapes from your branch leader, or if you think your copy sounds like crap, please inform the tree administrator. On the other hand, please make a good faith effort to resolve your difficulties with your branch leader. * Lack of Return Postage when trading blanks. Lots of folks forget this! CAVEATS * If you know you are going to be away in the next few weeks after tree sign-up, (e.g., for Spring Break, vacation, etc.) please let your branch leader (or your leaves, if YOU are a branch leader) know. If necessary, let the tree administrator know. Inevitably some people just up and disappear after they sign up for a tree. * Important! Leaves are responsible for contacting their branch leader to arrange to get their tapes! End of FAQ. One Final Point LEAVES, Please Note Re: Blanks 'n Postage Although it may be easier for YOU to send your Branch a money order to cover the *costs* of your copies, it is *not* necessarily easiest for your Branch. Remember this means the Branch has to buy cassettes, mailer, address a package, and take it to the post office. All this is in addition dubbing up to 5-Sets of Tapes. The fairest method is for YOU to purchase your own cassettes. Enclose your cassettes in a padded envelope. This envelope should be *self-addressed* *with* postage. This self-addressed, padded envelope w/Your cassettes can then be placed in a slighly larger envelope and mailed off to your Branch, who can now just drop your package in a mailbox once your copies are dubbed. Clean and Simple. In the end though, work it out with your BranchLeader. There are some really nice folks here on the JMDL and they will be happy to work with you and ensure that you receive your copies as quickly as possible. That's about all for now folks. I DO hope that everyone enjoys this group of recordings. I'm sure you will. There's some truly wonderful music included this time. - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:22:33 -0800 From: "Eaton, Shari" Subject: Re: Lyrics Hi Dave, Just wanted to respond and say that I do appreciate the analysis, the questioning. Your very minor critique has not diminished my admiration for either song. Shari On Jan 28, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Shari, I certainly didn't intend to diminish your love for the song, which I too greatly admire, especially the insight behind the line "like the enemies you've earned" - dig the wisdom there - but I feel like her choice of "fall" was a little weak. Similarly her use of "shine" almost forty years later felt like a word rather emptied of its power through over use in song lyrics and pop psychology. Elsewhere in The Fiddle and the Drum she is in top form, working the war and peace metaphors in the title, and going further to set up the handshake/fist duality in the second verse. It was this sense of the weakness of the verb "fall" in this context that got me wondering whether in fact it was "follow", which I still find more cogent, accurate and insightful even if that is in fact not what she wrote. > > Dave > > > On Jan 28, 2013, at 7:56 AM, Shari Eaton wrote: > >> I have always loved this song and 'We fall, oh my friend' has a hand in that love. It's unique, unexpected and guides the emotions really well. I'd be more curious to understand how you could possibly find it clumsy. >> >> >> On Jan 28, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: >> >>> Thanks for all the insight on this question everyone. I am persuaded that the >>> word is "fall" and I see how it might be shorthand for a turn of phrase like >>> "we fall into line" or "we fall for it" but it still strikes me as slightly >>> clumsy for Joni. Does anyone else feel that? >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 28, 2013, at 5:46 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: >>> >>>> Mark, that makes perfect sense to me. >>>> >>>> From: Mark >>>> To: Richard Flynn ; 'Catherine McKay' >>> ; jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com; 'Dave Blackburn' >>> >>>> Cc: 'JMDL' >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:12:08 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Lyrics >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> I think raising the drum sticks and crying out represents the fearsome power >>> of the U.S. war machine and could also very well refer to the harsh treatment >>> of people who joined together to protest the Viet Nam war. But I also think >>> there is a reference to the drums that once led soldiers into battle. The >>> fall, in that case, is the fall of men in battle. >>>> >>>> Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:11:27 -0800 From: "kbhla" Subject: Kinder, gentler (njc) This is also how it was in my first grade classroom five decades ago, David. DL wrote: > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:51:04 -0500 From: "Kimel, Taryn" Subject: Tales of Joni Mitchell @ 54 Below For those list members in the New York City, I wanted to extend a special offer. The cabaret 54 Below is currently presenting the show "Tales of Joni Mitchell," an intimate, unique take of Joni's remarkable songbook presented by a cast of Broadway and cabaret luminaries. Broadway.com describes the show as a "must-see" and says that "the classic songs are arranged and performed with a freshness that gives the music and lyrics new clarity, much like watching your favorite film in high-def." "Tales of Joni Mitchell" has two final performances this week, Wednesday the 30th and Thursday the 31st, at 9:30pm. While the cover charge for the Main Dining Room is regularly $35, Joni fans can use the code JONISOCIAL to receive $5 off either of these shows. More information can be found at http://54below.com/wordpress/?artist=tales-of-joni. We hope you'll join us! Taryn Kimel 54 Below CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or prior e-mail messages attached to it, are intended solely for the use of the named addressees, and may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:20:10 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Kinder, gentler (njc) THAT is impossible!!! You are just a slip of a girl... Great seeing you. Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com The Paz Group Audio/Video/Lighting Design & Installation Complete Event Production Services Artist, Tour, and Production Management michael@thepazgroup.com On Jan 29, 2013, at 2:11 PM, kbhla wrote: This is also how it was in my first grade classroom five decades ago, David. DL wrote: > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:04:02 -0800 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) I am reluctant to weigh in on this thread, supremely divisive as it is, but I too feel passionately against individual gun ownership. The old saws about protecting yourself and your family from the government are completely in the fantasy realm. They already can shut you down with a few clicks of a mouse, making banking, driving, traveling and all credit impossible. And personal firepower and that of your gun buddies are laughable up against that of federal agents. I suppose if you live in an area where robberies are commonplace you might see a deterrent factor in owning a gun but you are already living in fear of the robberies to which you now add the possibility that you might take someone's life to protect what? Your computer? Your jewelry? As the statistics prove, you are far more likely to be robbed while you are out and have the gun itself stolen, further compounding your fear. As for children growing up surrounded by guns, is it any wonder that will grow up thinking that owning a weapon brings respect, something they crave but something they cannot be bothered to earn the right way. Practically speaking, I'm pretty sure no new legislation will make a serious dent in the ongoing violence and a repeal of the 2nd amendment is impossible to imagine. No, a change would have to begin voluntarily, as we've seen with long lines of gun owners cueing up to turn their guns over to the police after Sandy Hook. If somehow that consciousness were to gather steam we might see a bit of a change for the better, but this is a large country with old traditions, often poor education, a history of violence, and rampant misinformation being spread about thanks to the first amendment. Dave p.s Lori, you are saying all this so eloquently that I'm just adding a few thoughts to what you have already put across. As you are finding, living overseas amonst people not carrying guns, there is a much better quality of life when that constant awareness of violence is not a part of everyday living. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 06:15:42 -0800 (PST) From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) ________________________________ From: Lori Renee Fye To: Catherine McKay Hunting for sport is another symptom of a very serious societal illness. Who, other than seriously disturbed people, kills living, breathing beings for fun? Animals do. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:23:47 +0000 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: (NJC) Canada and the US (was Lyrics) > I do feel I need a gun at my home. I didn't > before our house was violently broken into > (door kicked open) during my mother's funeral, > and I realized creeps could get inside our house > in a flash. We got a security system, but this > and dogs didn't deter a second break-in. Our > neighbors were broken into a few days ago. I can understand you shooting a dog that was attacking you, Laura. Are you saying, though, that you would shoot someone who's breaking into your house? If so, would you wait until you could determine they were armed, or would you just shoot them on sight? Lori Wales ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:22:54 -0500 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Just Like This Train - KCRW Morning Becomes Eclectic Last August Karen Holtz wrote > Subject: Just Like This Train > > Hey guys! Please, I need a help! > I've got a version of "Just Like This Train" song in my computer, sung by Joni Mitchell, > but this version is different than that ones that can be find at COURT AND SPARK and TRAVELOGUE albums. > > Do you know know where is this record from? I've posted it on my 4shared page. > Can you listen to it and help me please? > > Here is the link: > > Thank you! > - - - - - - - - Here's a portion of my reply. Karen, On Sept. 12, 1994 Joni Mitchell and Larry Klein visited radio station KCRW-FM in Santa Monica, CA. They were interviewed by Chris Douridas during his program "Morning Becomes Eclectic". During the hour-long Interview Session, several songs were performed by Joni, with Larry Klein on bass. 1. Night Ride Home 2. Just Like This Train 3. Moon At The Window 4. Magdalene Laundries 5. Sex Kills 6. The Crazy Cries Of Love 7. Face Lift The program was broadcast on Oct. 25, 1994 Two of these songs, as performed on KCRW-FM, were later 'officially' released. "Just Like This Train" was included on the CD release "KCRW Rare On Air, Volume 2" "Moon At The Window" was included as a 'Bonus' song on the "How Do You Stop" CD Single END of my Aug. reply - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Last Aug. I included a link to the KCRW WebSite where one could listen to this program. Unfortunately it's a low-resolution mp3.file AND it's incomplete. A portion of the interview is missing as is the last song performed "Face Lift". Not to worry though, a friend recorded the program and sent me a DAT recording. The complete broadcast. Earlier today I UpLoaded a copy (16 Bit/44.1k CD Quality) via YouSendIt. You'll find an Audio File containing the complete program (1994.09.12, Morning Becomes Eclectic.aiff) I always wanted to listen to the songs without playing the entire interview, so you'll also find ... A Folder containing the 7-Songs performed (1994.09.12, Morning Becomes Eclectic.zip) Both can be DownLoaded at the following URL: This link you will expire on February 12, 2013. Enjoy! I'm sure you will. andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - - simonM http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/miscrecordings.cfm PS: WAV and AIFF audio files are compatible with both Windows and Macintosh. Both can be imported into and played within iTunes. You can also burned a CD copy within iTunes. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #168 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------