From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #1481 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 30 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1481 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Bob is a good guy [Gerald Kent ] Re: Joni mention by Katy Perry [Gerald Kent ] Re: Njc, lets all chill. [Victor ] Re: The Katy Perry thing [Arkay Adkisson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:22:29 -0400 From: Gerald Kent Subject: Re: Bob is a good guy Wow Anne, I don't remember insinuating I didn't "like" people on the list. I was just voicing my distaste at how many of you are so condescending. Just an opinion. Sent from my iPad > On Oct 30, 2013, at 9:38 AM, Anne Sandstrom wrote: > > Hello Gerald, > Am I do understand that you just don't like any of us? I'm addressing you personally only because you addressed us (the listers) personally. > > Obviously, I don't know you and vice versa. > > As for assumptions about what people on this list like and listen to - this IS the Joni Mitchell list, so I think it's only natural to center on music that is contemporary to her work. That doesn't mean nobody listens to or likes current music. This just isn't the Contemporary Popular Musicians' List. > > And, for the record, I've met Bob on a number of occasions. In person. So I'm able to fill in a lot behind the written word. It does make a difference. I like Bob. I'm not a sheep, even if I do think that lambs are adorable beyond belief. > > OTOH I've never met you, so I'm left to adding my own inflection to your posts. My impression is negative, but incomplete. And I realize that limitation, so I guess I'm just puzzled. > > I'll just chalk this up to the impersonality of the internet and the phenomenon in which people says things electronically that they wouldn't say in person. > > Lots of love, > Anne > This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it may contain privileged and/or confidential information intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reading, dissemination, distribution, copying, forwarding or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message, all attachments and all copies and backups thereof. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:19:35 -0400 From: Gerald Kent Subject: Re: Joni mention by Katy Perry Nice post Catherine. Sent from my iPad > On Oct 30, 2013, at 8:15 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > > Well said, Rick! > > I can remember being afraid to tell people I liked Joni Mitchell and her music, because I was afraid of being put down. Hell, I still don't even admit it to many these days unless I know I'm in good company! And yes, to echo somewhat what Arkay said, I often think that female musicians are looked down on by a majority of men. Some of the exceptions can be found here on the jmdl, and you know, there may be more out there. So, I can understand the sensitivity. > > However, I've also met Bob Muller and I know he's a good guy. He likes to make jokes, but I don't think any of what he says is mean-spirited. Still, with the written word being what it is, and if you didn't know him, then I can see how it might come across that way. > > I can also remember being a kid and a teenager and enjoying a lot of pop music, which was never anywhere as deep as Joni's stuff. A lot of it was crap but a lot of it was good, and it was still fun, but in a different way. Even Joni said, "F**k it!Tonight I'm going dancing." > > More and more, modern music is just another product pushed on us by big business. There's a lot of crap out there (although even crap is subjective) but there's also good stuff. If big business doesn't see a musician or performer as being able to sell a lot of units, then they're not interested in them, so many turn to producing their stuff independently. > > Katy Perry has put out some good stuff - very catchy pop songs. Her latest album "Prism" has a song she and Jonatha Brooke wrote together, called "Choose your battles." I know that a few of us here are Jonatha fans. I think she has talent and she also seems like a very nice person, if that's worth anything. (Also, for what it's worth, her hair is usually black, sometimes blue and sometimes other colours.) > > I was pleasantly surprised by how good Miley Cyrus's singing is. I hadn't heard her until she appeared on Saturday Night Live a few weeks ago. It doesn't sound like autotune to me. But I do wish she'd keep her tongue in her mouth, because, ewww! I also think Lady Gaga is a lot of fun, and I love Pink. > > It is true that more venom is unleashed on female performers than on male ones. You have only to see how much wrath was vent on Miley for her performance on whatever award show that was, while Robin Thicke was barely mentioned. I didn't watch the show, but you'd have to be living under a rock not to hear the nattering about that for weeks. > > I also agree with Rick that, as we get older, it becomes more difficult to relate to modern music. What we hear as teens is probably what will stick with us for the most part, even if we do enjoy some of the newer stuff.. I, for one, will never understand the allure of electronic dance music outside of a dance floor and yet, they have entire festivals and concerts for that stuff. To each his or her own and ain't nothin' wrong with that. > > > > >> ________________________________ >> From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley < ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:26:43 -0400 From: Victor Subject: Re: Njc, lets all chill. Yes, and clearly, Bob's joke was misinterpreted/misunderstood so perhaps this anger is misdirected. It's easy to get caught up in the desire to be right, and lose track of the fact that we're all in this together and the common thread that connects us all. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 30, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Arkay Adkisson wrote: > > The constant barrage is not a reference to the JMDL list, but to society > and the media as a whole. > > > > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Anne Sandstrom > wrote: > >> Hello Arkay, >> Since I addresses Gerald, I'll take a moment to honor your post by >> speaking with you too. >> >> So, I don't understand. Which constant barrage of judgmental misogyny are >> you referring to? Did I miss something? >> >> As I said to Gerald, I don't know you. So it's possible I'm >> misinterpreting. Forgive me if I misunderstand. >> >> I do find it disturbing to see listers sniping at one another. >> >> Lots of love, >> Anne >> This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it may contain >> privileged and/or confidential information intended solely for the use of >> the addressee(s). If the reader of this message is not the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any reading, dissemination, >> distribution, copying, forwarding or other use of this message or its >> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in >> error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message, all >> attachments and all copies and backups thereof. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 09:42:59 -0500 From: Arkay Adkisson Subject: Re: The Katy Perry thing 1. "Good people" do and say "stupid, hurtful shit" all the time. 2. "That would be a stupid thing to think. As stupid as, I don't know, marrying Russell Brand and thinking it would work out." And, there you go, proving my initial point again. This whole thing reminds me of times when I hear a person say something insidiously racist-I point it out, then it's a bunch of "but I'm a good person, some of my best friends are black, I can't be racist, I was just listening to Marvin Gaye." Blah blah blah Bullshit. When you take a successful woman-and you dismiss her as a "pea-brain" that is you participating in the institutionalized marginalization of women. Maybe other women that speak up on this list don't feel that way. Sure.* I feel it though*. But then it's easy to dismiss me as 'too sensitive, too young, too much of a Katy Perry fan (which is not the point, and truthfully I would not even classify myself as-I hear her music often as I have teenage daughters-but that isn't even the point is it?) Then, because you just can't help but make another dig-you poke at her again, making fun of her failed marriage. Would you say these things to Katy Perry's face? This is an opportunity to learn. What you do with it, is up to you. I'm calling you out on this shit. You can choose to defend your words, or you can choose to sit back and think outside your box-and maybe understand why I am upset. Why a lot of women, who deal with sexist bullshit day after day, would be and are completely upset at your dismissive and callous words. And then-you have the nerve to say-"well I don't think Joni Mitchell would like Katy Perry's music" so you use THAT as permission to say shit? *This is not about Katy Perry's music*. This is not about what sort of artist Joni Mitchell would defend or like. This is about saying offensive things, and being called out on it. You say you are not a misogynist. Sure. But the truth is, you said a few things that were indeed misogynist-so the onus is on you-own that shit, then do what you need to in order to let go of that behaviour and be a better man. Be the kind of man that learns, and unlearns, the kind that says I'm sorry and MEANS it. Arkay. On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 7:39 AM, wrote: > Well...good morning everyone! > > I have been absent from the list most of the month, travelling all over > the country, from the Gulf Stream Waters to the Redwood forests > (literally) and then to Raleigh NC for a week, too busy to respond to > emails. Glad my little comment stirred things up. > > Anyway - let me just clarify a few things: > > 1. I'm good at several things; my job, being a Dad, tennis and others. I > really suck at other things; golf, cooking, and especially misogyny. Not > that that's something I WANT to be good at. Thanks Shari for pointing that > out, even though we've never met. > > 2. I have no problem with Katy Perry's music - "I Kissed A Girl" was a > brilliant pop song, she hasn't followed that with anything that has > impressed me, but I can appreciate what she does in the context of making > pop music. When I am hanging out with my next-door neighbors and we have a > spontaneous dance party with their 6 and 3-year old kids, we turn on "Katy > Perry Radio" on Pandora. Her music is fun, boppy, bouncy, danceable stuff. > What I DO have a problem with is hearing someone say, "I'll probably turn > into a Joni Mitchell", which reminded me of Canada's program to 'make van > Goghs" that Joni railed against for good reason. I'm not going to sit down > and do a "paint-by-numbers" work and imagine that I'll probably turn into > Picasso. That would be a stupid thing to think. As stupid as, I don't > know, marrying Russell Brand and thinking it would work out. > > 3. I was a fan of Hole but didn't have Celebrity Skin until Rob > recommended it. It's hands-down my favorite Hole album. As for new music, > that's basically ALL I listen to. Go back to my original post and you'll > see that I was spinning the new Arcade Fire record. It came out YESTERDAY. > And bonus that Hole has a Joni cover to their credit. > > 4. I don't believe that Joni would be supportive in any way of Katy > Perry's work. > > From a 2002 interview: > > Mitchell herself refuses to do anything to try to become more salable. > b What would I do?b she says, laughing. b Show my t*ts? Grab my crotch? > Get > hair extensions and a choreographer? Itb s not my world.b One of the most > constantly evolving of contemporary recording artists, she has never fit > into any one category, going from folk to rock to jazz and making forays > into world music and classical, all while firmly turning her back on the > mainstream. > > Thanks for the discussion, always. > > Bob > > NP: Ben Folds Five, "One Chord Blues" > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1481 ****************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------