From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #1193 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, August 24 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1193 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 Chelsea Puns [Mary Morris ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Anita G ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Victor Johnson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 07:52:14 -0700 From: Mary Morris Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 Chelsea Puns I think I agree with Victor, the posts weren't meant to be hurtful. I would take it as a compliment if I was compared to a Joni Mitchell song, but Chelsea Manning is probably too young to even get the reference anyway. I thought it was pretty clever - that line. I too, have had many transgendered friends over the years & I'm old. No one I knew was offended, but then that's an individual thing. I would not want to offend anyone. I don't go around making jokes about people's situations in that sense. I'm upset that anyone was offended, but I didn't take it that way....it was just a pun, I don't think there was any malice intended. This is a Joni list & we can't help ourselves when it comes to any connection in the popular zeitgeist. We all speak a Joni "shorthand" & every one is pretty respectful. I wouldn't take offense. There hasn't been any bashing here of any kind that I can recall. Peace. GREETINGS FROM THE TRIPLE M Down a gravel road, where the barb wire meets the sky. MARY M. MORRIS > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:14:53 -0400 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 > > > JMDL Digest Saturday, August 24 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1192 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Victor Johnson ] > Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Lori Renee Fye ] > Joni on Transgender Folk [Rick Hobbs-Seeley ] > Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Anita G ] > Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail [Rick Hobbs-See] > Mary's Joke NJC [kbhla@fastmail.fm] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:37:17 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk Rick you are exactly right. Thanks for posting what was my feelings, you posted for me as well. I ceased posting on the list two summers ago when on the same weekend Anders Brevik slaughtered 70 +- in Norway and Amy Winehouse died. I took issue with calling Winehouse's death a "tragedy" when the blood of so many teens were freshly splashed all over that island. Winehouse's death was sad but the tragedy was the murder of all those youth in a hate crime. I never felt that, by way of comparison, that Joplin's death was a tragedy. It saddened me then and sometimes acutely even now. But the tragedies of 1970 were the deaths in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Kent State. Two years ago one of our most active and loved posters, Jerry Notaro, ceased to post after our exchange on the nature of tragedy, in the aftermath of the 2011 events. I feel badly about that. Others have ceased to communicate with me here and on Facebook. And that is sad for me personally but no big deal in their and the JMDL's lives. Since you stated it so well, you may get less grief than I did; you are also a nicer, less contentious person than I, so thus a flame war may not erupt in this regards. But thanks for calling it out. No one woke up as Chelsea Manning. For Bradley Manning this has been a tortured part of his existence especially as he has been held in barely humane conditions in confinement these last years, and perhaps is a part of his personal pain that may play a role in his isolation and actions that others uses to put her in a situation where she has a 35 year sentence laid on her. It may be in the news but I think it is hurtful to her to subject her to parody after the cost in her life on top of her tortured pain, which is our window into the soul of the T people of our LGBT sisters and brothers. And there is no joy or humor in the Chelesa Manning story as she stands sentenced to 35 years. She is being ridiculed by the Limbaughs and Hannitys. This community should be standing on the side of those who suffer. I retreat to my JMDL silence in that I know that my inability to say things well and my generally obnoxious style cause hurt to others and what I say. Thanks Coyote Rick for speaking out and with eloquence. Vince Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2013, at 4:50 AM, Rick Hobbs-Seeley wrote: > I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. > > What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. > > I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric realize that's nconsistent with our community. I confidently doubt JM would support your comment. > > Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. > > With sad regrets, > > Coyote Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: > > Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail > Publication: The Globe and Mail > Date: 2013.8.15 > > http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 16:03:17 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk I have apologised if I have caused any offence, but I have to say that the parody was aimed clearly and squarely at those denying treatment - not aimed at Chelsea Manning at all. It's clear that these lines have upset people, but from where I sit, the point of the parody written here has been completely missed. As a lesbian who has had bricks through my window, has been viciously attacked when I left a club and had plenty of verbal abuse from time to time, I do hope I have a little understanding of the suffering inherent in living life as part of a minority. I also hope I will be able to discern when I read things who is on my side and who isn't. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 11:17:20 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk As I said already, no one has directed any hate whatsoever at Chelsea Manning so there is nothing to apologize for. Some people enjoy parody, some people don't. That is all this was, a parody. Stop reading into it. Stop projecting things into it that are not there. Stop it, please. The Dalai Lama has spoken many times about the importance of laughter. He can even laugh at the absurdity of his own situation, living in exile from his home, Tibet. If we can't laugh at the absurdities, trials, and hardships in life then the world is a very sad place indeed. Stop creating drama and take a moment to reflect on yourself before you start accusing people of hateful speech. Victor On Saturday, August 24, 2013, Anita G wrote: > I have apologised if I have caused any offence, but I have to say that > the parody was aimed clearly and squarely at those denying treatment - > not aimed at Chelsea Manning at all. > > It's clear that these lines have upset people, but from where I sit, > the point of the parody written here has been completely missed. > > As a lesbian who has had bricks through my window, has been viciously > attacked when I left a club and had plenty of verbal abuse from time > to time, I do hope I have a little understanding of the suffering > inherent in living life as part of a minority. I also hope I will be > able to discern when I read things who is on my side and who isn't. > Anita ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1193 ****************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------