From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2012 #639 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, April 28 2012 Volume 2012 : Number 639 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Peter Herbert's "Joni" [Bob Muller ] No Joni in Milan - cancel that flight Sue! [Bob Muller ] Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #638 [David Gizara ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 07:20:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Peter Herbert's "Joni" Thanks Kakki, I thought you would appreciate this one. The record company graciously sent me 10 or so copies and I still have a few left. The liner notes are extensive and interesting - I won't attempt to re-create them, but he states that he was introduced to Joni by way of Jaco and the Mingus project which he found amazing. He states that half of the songs are from WTRF which he labels as 'worn out' in terms of sound. Further to that - "This judgement does, of course, by no means refer to the quality of the compositions, which are among Mitchell's best since the mid-1970's" I like the fact that it gives us our FIRST covers of WTRF (the song itself) as well as "Love Puts On A New Face". No BSN or BYT in sight, in fact only ONE song from a pre-WTRF record ("Blue"). That fact alone makes this an amazingly fresh album for me. The song stylings all follow the same pattern; Verena Pruka sings the melodic line in a Joni-like straightforward fashion, the Koehne Quartett and Herbert play unusual and at times jarring arrangements, and Wolfgang Mitterer tosses in weird noises from time to time to accent certain things. It's very unique, demands your attention, and rewards repeated listening. Bob NP: Debra Blaquiere, "Michael From Mountains" ________________________________ From: kbhla To: joni@smoe.org; scjoniguy@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:48 PM Subject: Peter Herbert's "Joni" Listening to Peter Herbert's "Joni" which was just released. It is a symphonic jazz take with Wolfgang Mitterer, the Koehne Quartett and ena (Verena Pruka) on vocals on 12 of Joni's later compositions and it is stunning. Right up there in the realm of the greatest Joni interpretations of David Lahm and Dave and Robyn and Mutts of the Planet. A recording that elevates Joni's music to beautiful new heights. Thanks very much to Bob tuning me in! Wish I could provide some clips but here is some detail from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007PUHAW4/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=jonim itc01-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B007PUHAW4 Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 07:23:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: No Joni in Milan - cancel that flight Sue! http://tinyurl.com/chdosx8 What I could translate from this article in Italian states that Joni's management has QUICKLY denied that she will be performing at this event. As I suspected, too good to be true. Bob NP: Steve Situm, "Michael From Mountains" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:20:38 -0700 From: David Gizara Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #638 I am all for the most popular, commercially successful actress in the world to play JM so more folks will be exposed to her music. The movie role of a great musician has never been dependent on an ability to sing or play, autotunes, lip synching, dubbing have always been part of a directors tool chest. David Gizara Thursday Night Jazz Host - -like Thursday Night Jazz KLCC on facebook. On Apr 28, 2012, at 5:56 AM, JMDL Digest wrote: > > JMDL Digest Saturday, April 28 2012 Volume 2012 : > Number 638 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: Peter Herbert's "Joni" [FMYFL@aol.com > ] > auto-tune, Taylor Swift and all that (not) jazz ["Allison Crowe > Music" RE: Peter Herbert's "Joni" ["kbhla" >] > Re: Disturbing the peace (NJC) [LC Stanley >] > Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #633 [damian mccomb >] > Re: The casting of Joni in "Girls Like Us" [Dave Blackburn > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 07:50:48 -0400 (EDT) > From: FMYFL@aol.com > Subject: Re: Peter Herbert's "Joni" > > I haven't read the liner notes yet Kakki. I had no idea that Peter > performed on David's album. I also can't believe that "Jazz Takes > on Joni > Mitchell" is from '99. It seems like only a few year's ago David was > asking the list > for suggestions for the title of his CD. He didn't stick with > mine......."Out on a Lahm with Joni Mithcell" :-) > but at least he was nice enough to autograph it for me at the first > Pazfest. > > Jimmy > > In a message dated 4/28/2012 5:01:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > kbhla@fastmail.fm writes: > >> Also liked and was partially swayed by the Peter Herbert connection >> to >> David Lahm - he performed on Lahm's stellar 1999 "Jazz Takes on Joni >> Mitchell." >> >> >> >> Kakki > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 02:46:19 -0700 > From: "Allison Crowe Music" > Subject: auto-tune, Taylor Swift and all that (not) jazz > > In her interview with W magazine earlier this century, Joni herself > gave us > the most concise and honest explanation of what's going on in popular > music - and it ties together autotune, Taylor Swift and much else in > these > threads. > > Joni observed of the mainstream record industry: > > "They're not looking for talent. They're looking for a look and a > willingness to cooperate..." > > "As long as they look good, they can pitch-correct them now, they can > interior-decorate their music. The artists don't have to play > anything, - > they can cheat, buy songs and put their name on them, so they can > build the > illusions that the are creative." > > "Now, this is all calculated music. It's calculated for sales, it's > sonically calculated, it's rudely calculated." > > She said more, but, this is the crux. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 02:01:35 -0700 > From: "kbhla" > Subject: RE: Peter Herbert's "Joni" > > I agree it doesn't match the outstanding jazz interpretations of > David Lahm > and Dave and Robyn but was impressed by the effort to take on some > of Joni's > lesser known and jazz songs in a symphonic mode. I kept waiting for > the > vocals not to work in that setting but thought Pruka did > consistently well > and the overall quality of the music throughout was very high. I > liked how > they interpreted and transformed the songs in a unique way. Also > liked and > was partially swayed by the Peter Herbert connection to David Lahm - > he > performed on Lahm's stellar 1999 "Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell." > > > > Kakki > > > > > > From: FMYFL@aol.com [mailto:FMYFL@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:16 PM > To: kbhla@fastmail.fm; joni@smoe.org; scjoniguy@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Peter Herbert's "Joni" > > > > I listened to it once today Kakki. As Jonimitchell.com says it's a > unique > arrangement, I agree. I like the song choices, and Verena Pruka on > vocals, > but the CD will have to grow on me. I don't think it's nearly as > good as > David Lahm or Dave and Robyn's compositions, but I think it might > grow on > me. Anything Joni is great, and thanks Bob for tuning me in also! > > Happy Weekend everyone! > > Jimmy > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 07:53:39 -0500 > From: LC Stanley > Subject: Re: Disturbing the peace (NJC) > > The garage band across the street from us where I grew up played > Smoke on the Water over and over again. Memories... > > Dumdumdum dumdumdadum dumdumdum dumdum > > > > On Apr 27, 2012, at 9:48 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: > >> That's sad. I remember in our old neighborhood there was a garage >> band who played only one song ... Sunshine of Your Love ... badly, >> over and over again and no one called the cops. Poor Coltrane ... >> don't let the man get you down!! :-) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of >> Victor >> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:43 AM >> To: joni@smoe.org >> Subject: Disturbing the peace (NJC) >> >> So last night the police knocked on the door. Apparently someone >> had called to complain about "noise". The noise was Coltrane, 2 >> 1/2, playing on a drum set with his hands (for all of maybe 3 >> minutes or so...). >> >> I'm still contemplating the absurdity of it... >> >> Victor in Atlanta >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:36:57 +0100 > From: damian mccomb > Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #633 > > I concur emphatically. What makes recorded music great is rawness, > directness, authenticity. Or as Joni, in reference to Nietzsche, > would say, > writing/painting/singing in "one's own blood". Or Baudelaire's "my > heart > laid bare" not "my heart airbrushed and tarted up with studio > trickery". > When something like Autotune is used we are dealing with deception > from the > start. There's a disconnect and artifice which makes a mockery of the > audience and any hope of a meaningful connection to the artist is > gone. > Even Joni's use of the Roland guitar synthesizer on later albums > felt like > somewhat of a betrayal, though a necessary one for her I guess and > she used > it with her characteristic imagination and flair. > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 6:41 AM, JMDL Digest >wrote: > >> >> JMDL Digest Saturday, April 28 2012 Volume 2012 : >> Number >> 633 >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >> -------- >> Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #607 [Christopher Treacy >> ] >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 22:38:34 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Christopher Treacy >> Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #607 >> >> Catherine, >> The differentiation you make pretty much summarizes it (although >> now--truly evil--instruments are often monitored with corrective >> software >> as >> well). It all falls under the heading of "digital signal >> processing," and >> it's >> one of the reasons I really started to lose my patience as a music >> critic... >> people don't play fair anymore. I won't co-sign for it. I love >> going to see >> Shawn Colvin - just a gal and her guitar, warts and all. She won't >> even >> use an >> electronic guitar tuner. >> >> >> Autotune was actually available in some capacity >> before 1997 - I interviewed a CEO at Antares and spoke with the >> gentleman >> who >> designed the software plug-in for pro-tools that Antares ended up >> buying. >> He >> told me the original idea was to use it in community settings - >> specifically >> his (or his wife's, can't remember now) church choir. He said he'd >> feel >> gutted >> to know he'd unleashed something that was detrimental to our >> culture. And I >> happen to think autotune is, in fact, damaging beyond our wildest >> imaginations. Kids who listen to mainstream pop (including Taylor >> Swift, >> who'd >> be NOTHING without her pitch correction and vocal production value) >> don't >> really know what the human voice sounds like anymore. So, when they >> hear >> someone like Neil Young, they can't get past how pitch-y his vocal >> style >> is to >> appreciate his artistry. Indie-pop fans are substantially better off >> because >> they thrive on a certain lo-fi scrappiness, but pitch control is >> still used >> there >> too, albeit more gingerly. >> >> >> Joni is involved enough in the production of >> her projects to make sure they stay pure, but a lot of "recording >> artists" >> are >> not nearly as involved in the production, mixing and mastering of >> their >> recordings and AT/Melodyne is applied without their knowledge or >> say-so. I >> don't have a big issue with someone using pitch correction to get >> over a >> really difficult hump in the studio. And I might even be willing to >> look >> the >> other way when someone uses it sparingly in a live setting, if they >> simply >> can't get around an important note and people have paid big bucks >> to hear >> them >> hit it (James Taylor and Carole King, for instance, applied some >> sparing >> pitch >> correction to their shows a couple summers ago). But this notion of >> entirely >> pitch-corrected shows and songs on the radio makes it impossible >> for me to >> enjoy. Even folks like Mary J Blige are suspect. People think she's >> a vocal >> powerhouse, but it's not so. Mariah Carey has done so much damage >> to her >> voice >> over >> the years, she couldn't tour without it, unless she's going to sync >> the >> whole >> show. Between vocal fills and pitch correction, Mariah probably >> sings about >> 25% of the material she does live. >> >> People will defend pitch correction and >> say it makes them a better singer because they can focus more on >> powerful >> delivery and less on coloring within the lines, but I would say the >> people >> genuinely benefiting from it are few and far between. For most, I >> think it >> breeds laziness. >> >> I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this, but I'm sure >> Joni used something called vari-speed from time to time. It was the >> pitch >> control of the 70's and basically involved slight increases and >> decreases >> in >> the speed of the vocal line to preserve the pitch when joined with >> the >> rest of >> the studio tracks. There was another tool used in the 80's, the >> name of >> which >> escapes me now. In summary, there's always been some studio >> 'cheating,' but >> nothing like what we're witnessing now. >> >> >> Sorry for the long rant - I saw >> this come up amid the Taylor Swift commentary and had to speak up. >> >> >> Cheers, >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: JMDL Digest >> >> To: joni-digest@smoe.org >> Sent: Thursday, April >> 26, 2012 4:04 PM >> Subject: JMDL Digest V2012 #607 >> >> >> JMDL Digest >> Thursday, April 26 2012 Volume 2012 : Number 607 >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> TOPICS >> and authors in this Digest: >> - -------- >> Re: auto tune? (NJC) >> [Catherine McKay ] >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: >> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 14:02:04 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Catherine McKay >> >> Subject: Re: auto tune? (NJC) >> >> Maybe I don't really >> understand how Autotune works, but isn't the voice >> processed through something >> that "corrects" it, whereas a guitar tuner just >> helps you tune your guitar, >> but doesn't process it to keep it in tune? >> Seriously, I dunno. I don't have a >> guitar tuner. All I've got is a metronome >> that also plays an A and then I tune >> the strings relative to the A string and >> it works. Sometimes I go to one of >> those online guitar tuners. >> >> >> How much of a >> correction is it possible to make >> to someone's voice if the person is >> seriously offkey? Does it only work if the >> person is slightly flat or slightly >> sharp? And then there's the vocals on >> "Glee" where, to me, all of the people >> seem to have the same voice. I wouldn't >> be able to tell one from the other, >> and they all sound like something >> generated by a computer in any case. There's >> just something *wrong* about they >> way they sound, and it's not easy to put a >> finger on what it is. I'm not sure >> what's worse: the voices that all sound the >> same, or the ones that use >> Autotune (I'm assuming that's what it is) to >> deliberately distort their voices >> (and yet, they still all sound the same.) >> Didn't know about click tracks for >> drummers. I guess if it works like a >> metronome, it's OK for practice, but >> seems kind of wrong for live playing, >> although I'm not really sure why: I just >> think that, by the time they're ready >> to perform, they should have it down. >>> ________________________________ >>> >> From: Dave Blackburn >> >>> To: Lori Fye >> >>> Cc: jmdl >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April >> 26, 2012 3:46:24 PM >>> Subject: >> Re: auto tune? (NJC) >>> >>> At this point >> Auto-tuning on most pop vocals is akin >> to Photoshop on magazine models. ie the >> rule not the exception. >>> >>> Is it so >> different though from electronic tuners >> helping you tune your guitar >> accurately or click tracks helping drummers stay >> at a steady tempo? It's just >> a more advanced gadget. Maybe we've always jumped >> at the chance to "improve" >> our playing/singing... >> >> - ------------------------------ >> >> End of JMDL Digest >> V2012 #607 >> ***************************** >> >> - ------- >> To post messages to the >> list, send tojoni@smoe.org. >> Unsubscribe by clicking here: >> mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe >> - ------- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of JMDL Digest V2012 #633 >> ***************************** >> >> ------- >> To post messages to the list, send tojoni@smoe.org. >> Unsubscribe by clicking here: >> mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe >> ------- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:57:39 -0700 > From: Dave Blackburn > Subject: Re: The casting of Joni in "Girls Like Us" > > While every discussion of Taylor Swift begins with "she seems like a > sweet enough girl" my feeling is that picking her to play Joni is > largely economic. ie she will draw her many 12 year old fans to see > the movie. Chops-wise she is not fit to hold Joni's ashtray, either > vocally or on guitar. I teach guitar and many of my younger female > students adore TS so I've listened to a lot of her records, on which > the vocals are 100% auto-tuned, and the flimsy songs are carried > entirely by slick Nashville production. And then there is the big > matter of intellectual gravitas. Although it's true that "I was born > to take the highway" didn't reveal much of that on "Let's Sing Out", > the fact that she wrote Both Sides Now at age 23 or 24 a year or so > later shows a brilliant young song crafter producing superb work > without any technology to prop it up. (We may think of BSN as "the > franchise" and that it's been overdone, but that is only because so > many vocalists recognize it as a brilliant so! > ng and want to ride on its coat tails.) > > You know who I think would be able to play a marvelous Joni Mitchell > is Cate Blanchett. I don't know if she can play guitar but if anyone > saw "Benjamin Button" we know she sings beautifully and her acting > ability is top of the line. She can look as young as the role > demands, do any accent or mannerism and most importantly carry the > unseen aspects of a person's character in her portrayal. Joni would, > I imagine, deride the whole movie project, as she did with the book > "Girls Like Us", refusing to be interviewed for it. If Taylor Swift > is the actress to portray her, you know this will cement every > feeling about the ersatz nature of Hollywood and the music biz she's > ever expressed. Cate Blanchett, in my opinion, she would admire and > respect- hell, she might even go see the movie and smoke outside > till her bit came on! > > Dave > > (longest post in a while...) > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2012 #638 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list, send tojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:20:38 -0700 From: David Gizara Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #638 I am all for the most popular, commercially successful actress in the world to play JM so more folks will be exposed to her music. The movie role of a great musician has never been dependent on an ability to sing or play, autotunes, lip synching, dubbing have always been part of a directors tool chest. David Gizara Thursday Night Jazz Host - -like Thursday Night Jazz KLCC on facebook. On Apr 28, 2012, at 5:56 AM, JMDL Digest wrote: > > JMDL Digest Saturday, April 28 2012 Volume 2012 : > Number 638 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: Peter Herbert's "Joni" [FMYFL@aol.com > ] > auto-tune, Taylor Swift and all that (not) jazz ["Allison Crowe > Music" RE: Peter Herbert's "Joni" ["kbhla" >] > Re: Disturbing the peace (NJC) [LC Stanley >] > Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #633 [damian mccomb >] > Re: The casting of Joni in "Girls Like Us" [Dave Blackburn > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 07:50:48 -0400 (EDT) > From: FMYFL@aol.com > Subject: Re: Peter Herbert's "Joni" > > I haven't read the liner notes yet Kakki. I had no idea that Peter > performed on David's album. I also can't believe that "Jazz Takes > on Joni > Mitchell" is from '99. It seems like only a few year's ago David was > asking the list > for suggestions for the title of his CD. He didn't stick with > mine......."Out on a Lahm with Joni Mithcell" :-) > but at least he was nice enough to autograph it for me at the first > Pazfest. > > Jimmy > > In a message dated 4/28/2012 5:01:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > kbhla@fastmail.fm writes: > >> Also liked and was partially swayed by the Peter Herbert connection >> to >> David Lahm - he performed on Lahm's stellar 1999 "Jazz Takes on Joni >> Mitchell." >> >> >> >> Kakki > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 02:46:19 -0700 > From: "Allison Crowe Music" > Subject: auto-tune, Taylor Swift and all that (not) jazz > > In her interview with W magazine earlier this century, Joni herself > gave us > the most concise and honest explanation of what's going on in popular > music - and it ties together autotune, Taylor Swift and much else in > these > threads. > > Joni observed of the mainstream record industry: > > "They're not looking for talent. They're looking for a look and a > willingness to cooperate..." > > "As long as they look good, they can pitch-correct them now, they can > interior-decorate their music. The artists don't have to play > anything, - > they can cheat, buy songs and put their name on them, so they can > build the > illusions that the are creative." > > "Now, this is all calculated music. It's calculated for sales, it's > sonically calculated, it's rudely calculated." > > She said more, but, this is the crux. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 02:01:35 -0700 > From: "kbhla" > Subject: RE: Peter Herbert's "Joni" > > I agree it doesn't match the outstanding jazz interpretations of > David Lahm > and Dave and Robyn but was impressed by the effort to take on some > of Joni's > lesser known and jazz songs in a symphonic mode. I kept waiting for > the > vocals not to work in that setting but thought Pruka did > consistently well > and the overall quality of the music throughout was very high. I > liked how > they interpreted and transformed the songs in a unique way. Also > liked and > was partially swayed by the Peter Herbert connection to David Lahm - > he > performed on Lahm's stellar 1999 "Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell." > > > > Kakki > > > > > > From: FMYFL@aol.com [mailto:FMYFL@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:16 PM > To: kbhla@fastmail.fm; joni@smoe.org; scjoniguy@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Peter Herbert's "Joni" > > > > I listened to it once today Kakki. As Jonimitchell.com says it's a > unique > arrangement, I agree. I like the song choices, and Verena Pruka on > vocals, > but the CD will have to grow on me. I don't think it's nearly as > good as > David Lahm or Dave and Robyn's compositions, but I think it might > grow on > me. Anything Joni is great, and thanks Bob for tuning me in also! > > Happy Weekend everyone! > > Jimmy > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 07:53:39 -0500 > From: LC Stanley > Subject: Re: Disturbing the peace (NJC) > > The garage band across the street from us where I grew up played > Smoke on the Water over and over again. Memories... > > Dumdumdum dumdumdadum dumdumdum dumdum > > > > On Apr 27, 2012, at 9:48 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: > >> That's sad. I remember in our old neighborhood there was a garage >> band who played only one song ... Sunshine of Your Love ... badly, >> over and over again and no one called the cops. Poor Coltrane ... >> don't let the man get you down!! :-) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of >> Victor >> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:43 AM >> To: joni@smoe.org >> Subject: Disturbing the peace (NJC) >> >> So last night the police knocked on the door. Apparently someone >> had called to complain about "noise". The noise was Coltrane, 2 >> 1/2, playing on a drum set with his hands (for all of maybe 3 >> minutes or so...). >> >> I'm still contemplating the absurdity of it... >> >> Victor in Atlanta >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:36:57 +0100 > From: damian mccomb > Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #633 > > I concur emphatically. What makes recorded music great is rawness, > directness, authenticity. Or as Joni, in reference to Nietzsche, > would say, > writing/painting/singing in "one's own blood". Or Baudelaire's "my > heart > laid bare" not "my heart airbrushed and tarted up with studio > trickery". > When something like Autotune is used we are dealing with deception > from the > start. There's a disconnect and artifice which makes a mockery of the > audience and any hope of a meaningful connection to the artist is > gone. > Even Joni's use of the Roland guitar synthesizer on later albums > felt like > somewhat of a betrayal, though a necessary one for her I guess and > she used > it with her characteristic imagination and flair. > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 6:41 AM, JMDL Digest >wrote: > >> >> JMDL Digest Saturday, April 28 2012 Volume 2012 : >> Number >> 633 >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >> -------- >> Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #607 [Christopher Treacy >> ] >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 22:38:34 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Christopher Treacy >> Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #607 >> >> Catherine, >> The differentiation you make pretty much summarizes it (although >> now--truly evil--instruments are often monitored with corrective >> software >> as >> well). It all falls under the heading of "digital signal >> processing," and >> it's >> one of the reasons I really started to lose my patience as a music >> critic... >> people don't play fair anymore. I won't co-sign for it. I love >> going to see >> Shawn Colvin - just a gal and her guitar, warts and all. She won't >> even >> use an >> electronic guitar tuner. >> >> >> Autotune was actually available in some capacity >> before 1997 - I interviewed a CEO at Antares and spoke with the >> gentleman >> who >> designed the software plug-in for pro-tools that Antares ended up >> buying. >> He >> told me the original idea was to use it in community settings - >> specifically >> his (or his wife's, can't remember now) church choir. He said he'd >> feel >> gutted >> to know he'd unleashed something that was detrimental to our >> culture. And I >> happen to think autotune is, in fact, damaging beyond our wildest >> imaginations. Kids who listen to mainstream pop (including Taylor >> Swift, >> who'd >> be NOTHING without her pitch correction and vocal production value) >> don't >> really know what the human voice sounds like anymore. So, when they >> hear >> someone like Neil Young, they can't get past how pitch-y his vocal >> style >> is to >> appreciate his artistry. Indie-pop fans are substantially better off >> because >> they thrive on a certain lo-fi scrappiness, but pitch control is >> still used >> there >> too, albeit more gingerly. >> >> >> Joni is involved enough in the production of >> her projects to make sure they stay pure, but a lot of "recording >> artists" >> are >> not nearly as involved in the production, mixing and mastering of >> their >> recordings and AT/Melodyne is applied without their knowledge or >> say-so. I >> don't have a big issue with someone using pitch correction to get >> over a >> really difficult hump in the studio. And I might even be willing to >> look >> the >> other way when someone uses it sparingly in a live setting, if they >> simply >> can't get around an important note and people have paid big bucks >> to hear >> them >> hit it (James Taylor and Carole King, for instance, applied some >> sparing >> pitch >> correction to their shows a couple summers ago). But this notion of >> entirely >> pitch-corrected shows and songs on the radio makes it impossible >> for me to >> enjoy. Even folks like Mary J Blige are suspect. People think she's >> a vocal >> powerhouse, but it's not so. Mariah Carey has done so much damage >> to her >> voice >> over >> the years, she couldn't tour without it, unless she's going to sync >> the >> whole >> show. Between vocal fills and pitch correction, Mariah probably >> sings about >> 25% of the material she does live. >> >> People will defend pitch correction and >> say it makes them a better singer because they can focus more on >> powerful >> delivery and less on coloring within the lines, but I would say the >> people >> genuinely benefiting from it are few and far between. For most, I >> think it >> breeds laziness. >> >> I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this, but I'm sure >> Joni used something called vari-speed from time to time. It was the >> pitch >> control of the 70's and basically involved slight increases and >> decreases >> in >> the speed of the vocal line to preserve the pitch when joined with >> the >> rest of >> the studio tracks. There was another tool used in the 80's, the >> name of >> which >> escapes me now. In summary, there's always been some studio >> 'cheating,' but >> nothing like what we're witnessing now. >> >> >> Sorry for the long rant - I saw >> this come up amid the Taylor Swift commentary and had to speak up. >> >> >> Cheers, >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: JMDL Digest >> >> To: joni-digest@smoe.org >> Sent: Thursday, April >> 26, 2012 4:04 PM >> Subject: JMDL Digest V2012 #607 >> >> >> JMDL Digest >> Thursday, April 26 2012 Volume 2012 : Number 607 >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> TOPICS >> and authors in this Digest: >> - -------- >> Re: auto tune? (NJC) >> [Catherine McKay ] >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: >> Thu, 26 Apr 2012 14:02:04 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Catherine McKay >> >> Subject: Re: auto tune? (NJC) >> >> Maybe I don't really >> understand how Autotune works, but isn't the voice >> processed through something >> that "corrects" it, whereas a guitar tuner just >> helps you tune your guitar, >> but doesn't process it to keep it in tune? >> Seriously, I dunno. I don't have a >> guitar tuner. All I've got is a metronome >> that also plays an A and then I tune >> the strings relative to the A string and >> it works. Sometimes I go to one of >> those online guitar tuners. >> >> >> How much of a >> correction is it possible to make >> to someone's voice if the person is >> seriously offkey? Does it only work if the >> person is slightly flat or slightly >> sharp? And then there's the vocals on >> "Glee" where, to me, all of the people >> seem to have the same voice. I wouldn't >> be able to tell one from the other, >> and they all sound like something >> generated by a computer in any case. There's >> just something *wrong* about they >> way they sound, and it's not easy to put a >> finger on what it is. I'm not sure >> what's worse: the voices that all sound the >> same, or the ones that use >> Autotune (I'm assuming that's what it is) to >> deliberately distort their voices >> (and yet, they still all sound the same.) >> Didn't know about click tracks for >> drummers. I guess if it works like a >> metronome, it's OK for practice, but >> seems kind of wrong for live playing, >> although I'm not really sure why: I just >> think that, by the time they're ready >> to perform, they should have it down. >>> ________________________________ >>> >> From: Dave Blackburn >> >>> To: Lori Fye >> >>> Cc: jmdl >> >>> Sent: Thursday, April >> 26, 2012 3:46:24 PM >>> Subject: >> Re: auto tune? (NJC) >>> >>> At this point >> Auto-tuning on most pop vocals is akin >> to Photoshop on magazine models. ie the >> rule not the exception. >>> >>> Is it so >> different though from electronic tuners >> helping you tune your guitar >> accurately or click tracks helping drummers stay >> at a steady tempo? It's just >> a more advanced gadget. Maybe we've always jumped >> at the chance to "improve" >> our playing/singing... >> >> - ------------------------------ >> >> End of JMDL Digest >> V2012 #607 >> ***************************** >> >> - ------- >> To post messages to the >> list, send tojoni@smoe.org. >> Unsubscribe by clicking here: >> mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe >> - ------- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of JMDL Digest V2012 #633 >> ***************************** >> >> ------- >> To post messages to the list, send tojoni@smoe.org. >> Unsubscribe by clicking here: >> mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe >> ------- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:57:39 -0700 > From: Dave Blackburn > Subject: Re: The casting of Joni in "Girls Like Us" > > While every discussion of Taylor Swift begins with "she seems like a > sweet enough girl" my feeling is that picking her to play Joni is > largely economic. ie she will draw her many 12 year old fans to see > the movie. Chops-wise she is not fit to hold Joni's ashtray, either > vocally or on guitar. I teach guitar and many of my younger female > students adore TS so I've listened to a lot of her records, on which > the vocals are 100% auto-tuned, and the flimsy songs are carried > entirely by slick Nashville production. And then there is the big > matter of intellectual gravitas. Although it's true that "I was born > to take the highway" didn't reveal much of that on "Let's Sing Out", > the fact that she wrote Both Sides Now at age 23 or 24 a year or so > later shows a brilliant young song crafter producing superb work > without any technology to prop it up. (We may think of BSN as "the > franchise" and that it's been overdone, but that is only because so > many vocalists recognize it as a brilliant so! > ng and want to ride on its coat tails.) > > You know who I think would be able to play a marvelous Joni Mitchell > is Cate Blanchett. I don't know if she can play guitar but if anyone > saw "Benjamin Button" we know she sings beautifully and her acting > ability is top of the line. She can look as young as the role > demands, do any accent or mannerism and most importantly carry the > unseen aspects of a person's character in her portrayal. Joni would, > I imagine, deride the whole movie project, as she did with the book > "Girls Like Us", refusing to be interviewed for it. If Taylor Swift > is the actress to portray her, you know this will cement every > feeling about the ersatz nature of Hollywood and the music biz she's > ever expressed. Cate Blanchett, in my opinion, she would admire and > respect- hell, she might even go see the movie and smoke outside > till her bit came on! > > Dave > > (longest post in a while...) > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2012 #638 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list, send tojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2012 #639 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send tojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------