From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2012 #1525 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe:mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website:http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, October 5 2012 Volume 2012 : Number 1525 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: herjira music video [Susan Tierney McNamara ] Dylan and Great Joni Songs [Michel BYRNE ] Re: Dylan and Great Joni Songs now Cherokee Louise ["gene" Subject: RE: herjira music video This is beautiful, was it part of the Shadows and Light DVD? Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of gene Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 7:53 PM To: Eaton, Shari; JMDL list Subject: Re: herjira music video If this were Facebook I would be clicking the "Like" button. Sure miss Jaco. thanks, gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eaton, Shari" To: "JMDL list" Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 3:56 PM Subject: herjira music video >i hadn't seen this so thought i'd send it along: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg7F2-rYXno&feature=BFa&list=AL94UKMTqg-9C0AEsw9AaFkKcM0VAuebDx > > > > i love watching her flap her wings : ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 13:21:04 +0000 From: Michel BYRNE Subject: Dylan and Great Joni Songs Hi Shari, I'm sure you'll find quite a lot of correspondence on the 'Dylan a plagiarist' comments in the jmdl archives. To be honest it's not an episode I like to revisit: although the issues raised are fascinating (what's 'originality' in art, what's 'plagiarism', etc), the spirit in which Joni seems to have made her comments was (to me) unpardonably mean, and seriously dented my admiration for her. I don't follow the music press very closely, but I've never come across any other musician so willing to publicly diss fellow musicians. I'm not sure where Joni's extreme competitiveness comes from (insecurity? but why?), but combined with her unwillingness (or inability) to self-censure her opinions, it presents a very unpleasant public image-- which isn't to deny her great charm and humour in other situations. But forgetting the contentious personality, the great music remains-- and can I make a pitch for *Cherokee Louise* as one of her *great* songs? I totally agree with folk's comments about 'Magdalene Laundries', but to me CL is an even more amazing work of empathetic art. There she manages to get into the skin not of an adult looking back on youth, but of a young teenager reflecting on her 'coming of age' in the past year (through her friendship with an abuse victim) -- the mix of childish memories (swaying in the branches, pennies on the rail) and premature adulthood (with a sense of the oppressiveness of adults: parental control, the police, the abusive foster-dad) is perfectly pitched and (imo) emotionally devastating. I love the guitar and ghostly stacked vocals of the original (on NRH), but the orchestral version on Travelogue is so beautiful too, especially the sad playful lines on the sax at the very end (at least I think it's a sax), like children hopping, skipping away into the distance. To me, Joni's genius in that song is equal to anything she did earlier. Have been away or lurking for a long time, but thanks to you all for all the discussions and reports, and Bob for his indefatigable providing of Joni covers! Michel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 19:34:49 -0700 From: "gene" Subject: Re: Dylan and Great Joni Songs now Cherokee Louise As always, wonderful insightful review. Thanks, gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark" To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Dylan and Great Joni Songs now Cherokee Louise >I agree that 'Cherokee Louise' stands up alongside the best of Joni's songs >from any of her stages of artistic progression. > > For me Joni really captures that confusion that we all went through when > our bodies and our psyches began to change from those tree-climbing > innocents into something that is not quite yet adulthood. The verse where > she says 'ever since we turned thirteen it's like a mine field walking > through the door/going out you get the third degree and coming in you get > the third world war' is brilliant. Thirteen, third degree, third world > war, mine field are put together so perfectly in those two lines and > metaphorically express with clarity and honesty the bafflement caused by > what seems like an abrupt shift in the relationship dynamic with parents. > Their childlike nature has not departed from those thirteen year olds who > still put pennies on railroad tracks and then 'jump and run like fools' to > marvel at 'no heads or tails' on the 'lucky prize'. But something has > changed that makes their parents into what seem a bit like prison guards. > The kids are also grappling with changes in their own natures that they > have no way of understanding. Cherokee Louise is the unfortunate child > who is without what the others don't realize is actually protection on > their parents' part. She is the victim of betrayal of trust and a failed > system, forced into a sordid, warped initiation into something she has no > cope mechanism for. Unjustly persecuted, she ends up 'hiding in this > tunnel in the Broadway Bridge' > > I love the imagery in the song - 'the place where you can stand and press > your hand like it was bubble bath in dust piled high as me' - is one of my > favorites. Do they still make powdered bubble bath? > > Anyway, I babble away and far too often do nothing but state the obvious. > It's a great song that works on many different levels. The movement of > the guitar line evokes kids skipping or jumping rope but it has a > melancholy sound to it as well. Perfect fit of melody, words and music. > Classic Joni Mitchell. > > Mark in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- > From: Catherine McKay > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 7:51 AM > To: Michel BYRNE ; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Dylan and Great Joni Songs > > Re: the Dylan/plagiarisim thing, I don't really remember what she said or > the > context, because context means a lot, but I agree with you about Joni's > sometimes being a little (or at least coming across as) too opinionated > and > too quick to judge. I like honesty but there's a line between being honest > and > being hurtful. In any case, great artists steal from others all the time. > From > what Joni is quoted as saying about others, it seems that she doesn't care > for > too many other artists at all and I don't like it when anyone disses > others. > I also agree with you about "Cherokee Louise". I think Joni did a > wonderful > job of capturing what it was (is) like to be a girl at that age - still > innocent and adventurous but having been suddenly exposed to the dark > underbelly of the adult world. She captures that feeling in both the > lyrics > and the music. I do prefer the original version. I can't really get into > "Travelogue" all that much, except in small doses. >>________________________________ >> From: Michel BYRNE > >>To: joni@smoe.org >>Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 > 9:21:04 AM >>Subject: Dylan and Great Joni Songs >> >>Hi Shari, I'm sure you'll > find quite a lot of correspondence on the 'Dylan a >>plagiarist' comments in > the jmdl archives. To be honest it's not an episode I >>like to revisit: > although the issues raised are fascinating (what's >>'originality' in art, > what's 'plagiarism', etc), the spirit in which Joni >>seems to have made her > comments was (to me) unpardonably mean, and seriously >>dented my admiration > for her. I don't follow the music press very closely, >>but I've never come > across any other musician so willing to publicly diss >>fellow musicians. I'm > not sure where Joni's extreme competitiveness comes from >>(insecurity? but > why?), but combined with her unwillingness (or inability) to >>self-censure her > opinions, it presents a very unpleasant public image-- which >>isn't to deny > her great charm and humour in other situations. >> >>But forgetting the > contentious personality, the great music remains-- and can >>I make a pitch for > *Cherokee Louise* as one of her *great* songs? I totally >>agree with folk's > comments about 'Magdalene Laundries', but to me CL is an >>even more amazing > work of empathetic art. There she manages to get into the >>skin not of an > adult looking back on youth, but of a young teenager reflecting >>on her > 'coming of age' in the past year (through her friendship with an abuse >>victim) -- the mix of childish memories (swaying in the branches, pennies >>on >>the rail) and premature adulthood (with a sense of the oppressiveness of >>adults: parental control, the police, the abusive foster-dad) is perfectly >>pitched and (imo) emotionally devastating. I love the guitar and ghostly >>stacked vocals of the original (on NRH), but the orchestral version on >>Travelogue is so beautiful too, especially the sad playful lines on the >>sax > at >>the very end (at least I think it's a sax), like children hopping, > skipping >>away into the distance. To me, Joni's genius in that song is equal > to anything >>she did earlier. >> >>Have been away or lurking for a long time, > but thanks to you all for all the >>discussions and reports, and Bob for his > indefatigable providing of Joni >>covers! >>Michel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 20:18:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Joni mention in film "People like us" I just finished watching a film called "People like us" (not to be confused with "Girls like us".) IMDB's synopsis of the story is, "While settling his recently deceased father's estate, a salesman discovers he has a sister whom he never knew about, leading both siblings to re-examine their perceptions about family and life choices." There is a Joni mention in the film. The main character's father has just died. He was a music producer and apparently a bit of a prick, and the son had moved away and hadn't spoken to him in quite a while. The mother (Michelle Pfeiffer) explains to her son how his father and she got together. She says she was 17 and working as a coat-check girl at the Troubadour. The father was there at the club and told her she looked like Joni Mitchell. She says she had gone to LA from New Jersey to try to meet Joni Mitchell. By hooking up with this producer, she gets to meet Joni and a number of other musicians, and to hang out with them. In another, very brief, part of the film, it's evident that the family was living in the Laurel Canyon area. The car drives past the Laurel Canyon sign and the Laurel Canyon hippy store that some of you visited when you went to the Jonifest out there a few years ago. Th-th-th-th-that's all, folks! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 11:58:43 -0400 From: jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com Subject: That video That video is part of a DVD concert called "Shadow And Light". There is a lot more to discover there. For example, the live version of "Dry Cleaner From Des Moines". Jim L. Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 20:23:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Dylan and Great Joni Songs now Cherokee Louise Babble on, Mark (Babylon Mark?) I always enjoy reading your take on things. 'The place where you can stand and press your hand like it was bubble bath in dust piled high as me' is one of my favourites as well. I get the full sensation of what that looks and feels like. As adults, we'd be grossed out by that kind of dust but, as children, assuming we don't have asthma, it would be magical. - ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark > To: joni@smoe.org > Cc: > Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 9:56:42 PM > Subject: Re: Dylan and Great Joni Songs now Cherokee Louise > > I agree that 'Cherokee Louise' stands up alongside the best of > Joni's songs > from any of her stages of artistic progression. > > For me Joni really captures that confusion that we all went through when our > bodies and our psyches began to change from those tree-climbing innocents > into something that is not quite yet adulthood. The verse where she says > 'ever since we turned thirteen it's like a mine field walking through > the > door/going out you get the third degree and coming in you get the third > world war' is brilliant. Thirteen, third degree, third world war, mine > field are put together so perfectly in those two lines and metaphorically > express with clarity and honesty the bafflement caused by what seems like an > abrupt shift in the relationship dynamic with parents. Their childlike > nature has not departed from those thirteen year olds who still put pennies > on railroad tracks and then 'jump and run like fools' to marvel at > 'no heads > or tails' on the 'lucky prize'. But something has changed that > makes their > parents into what seem a bit like prison guards. The kids are also > grappling with changes in their own natures that they have no way of > understanding. Cherokee Louise is the unfortunate child who is without what > the others don't realize is actually protection on their parents' part. > She > is the victim of betrayal of trust and a failed system, forced into a > sordid, warped initiation into something she has no cope mechanism for. > Unjustly persecuted, she ends up 'hiding in this tunnel in the Broadway > Bridge' > > I love the imagery in the song - 'the place where you can stand and press > your hand like it was bubble bath in dust piled high as me' - is one of my > favorites. Do they still make powdered bubble bath? > > Anyway, I babble away and far too often do nothing but state the obvious. > It's a great song that works on many different levels. The movement of the > guitar line evokes kids skipping or jumping rope but it has a melancholy > sound to it as well. Perfect fit of melody, words and music. Classic Joni > Mitchell. > > Mark in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- > From: Catherine McKay > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 7:51 AM > To: Michel BYRNE ; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Dylan and Great Joni Songs > > Re: the Dylan/plagiarisim thing, I don't really remember what she said or > the > context, because context means a lot, but I agree with you about Joni's > sometimes being a little (or at least coming across as) too opinionated and > too quick to judge. I like honesty but there's a line between being honest > and > being hurtful. In any case, great artists steal from others all the time. > From > what Joni is quoted as saying about others, it seems that she doesn't care > for > too many other artists at all and I don't like it when anyone disses others. > I also agree with you about "Cherokee Louise". I think Joni did a > wonderful > job of capturing what it was (is) like to be a girl at that age - still > innocent and adventurous but having been suddenly exposed to the dark > underbelly of the adult world. She captures that feeling in both the lyrics > and the music. I do prefer the original version. I can't really get into > "Travelogue" all that much, except in small doses. >> ________________________________ >> From: Michel BYRNE > >> To: joni@smoe.org >> Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 > 9:21:04 AM >> Subject: Dylan and Great Joni Songs >> >> Hi Shari, I'm sure you'll > find quite a lot of correspondence on the 'Dylan a >> plagiarist' comments in > the jmdl archives. To be honest it's not an episode I >> like to revisit: > although the issues raised are fascinating (what's >> 'originality' in art, > what's 'plagiarism', etc), the spirit in which Joni >> seems to have made her > comments was (to me) unpardonably mean, and seriously >> dented my admiration > for her. I don't follow the music press very closely, >> but I've never come > across any other musician so willing to publicly diss >> fellow musicians. I'm > not sure where Joni's extreme competitiveness comes from >> (insecurity? but > why?), but combined with her unwillingness (or inability) to >> self-censure her > opinions, it presents a very unpleasant public image-- which >> isn't to deny > her great charm and humour in other situations. >> >> But forgetting the > contentious personality, the great music remains-- and can >> I make a pitch for > *Cherokee Louise* as one of her *great* songs? I totally >> agree with folk's > comments about 'Magdalene Laundries', but to me CL is an >> even more amazing > work of empathetic art. There she manages to get into the >> skin not of an > adult looking back on youth, but of a young teenager reflecting >> on her > 'coming of age' in the past year (through her friendship with an abuse >> victim) -- the mix of childish memories (swaying in the branches, pennies >> on >> the rail) and premature adulthood (with a sense of the oppressiveness of >> adults: parental control, the police, the abusive foster-dad) is perfectly >> pitched and (imo) emotionally devastating. I love the guitar and ghostly >> stacked vocals of the original (on NRH), but the orchestral version on >> Travelogue is so beautiful too, especially the sad playful lines on the sax > at >> the very end (at least I think it's a sax), like children hopping, > skipping >> away into the distance. To me, Joni's genius in that song is equal > to anything >> she did earlier. >> >> Have been away or lurking for a long time, > but thanks to you all for all the >> discussions and reports, and Bob for his > indefatigable providing of Joni >> covers! >> Michel ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2012 #1525 ****************************** ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------