From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #474 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jmdl.com JMDL Digest Saturday, November 12 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 474 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Judy Collins on Joni: "She's a difficult woman" [gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Judy Collins on Joni: "She's a difficult woman" One of the things I find hard/difficult to appreciate isn't Joni or anything she says it is how the fans react to what others say about her. We are probably none of us as articulate as Joni is and even with her power of language she is often misunderstood so it goes without saying really that mortals lesser than she in the words department don't get it right and can equally be misunderstood. I count myself among that number. I've been on the list here a number of years now. not many but a few and have often found my comments ignored. i have as a result tried to disengage from the joni community because of this democratic (for want of better words) lack but whenever i have tried to it hasn't worked ! reading these comments has stirred this complaint in me. surely like joni, whom we all love, each of us on her list is of value and our opinions, like hers, are of value. They are only opinions after all and are simply contributions to a discussion list. Sad if a joni discussion list is a closed book to a few adoring people who rub each others backs constantly and dislike the slightest whiff.... or touch of a stranger ! even if it sets up a trembling in your bones.... My sisters met Joni in person in Stokholm when she was touring europe. She talked with my older sister about her life...my sister's life that is and invited her to get in the limo and go for dinner ! For every awful story we hear about her there are ten to obliterate the nasty ones. In my book joni mitchell has a heart of pure gold. she is everything she sings about. She has been a friend and a witness throughout our lives and has served the planet well. Whatever anybody says we could all of us take a leaf out of her book. On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 10:54 AM, T Peckham wrote: > {First of all, my apologies if the formatting in this comes out all funky. > When I cut and pasted something in, it seemed like it screwed up the > margins and line breaks. Did my best to try to fix it, but . . . } > > Wow, Kakki, thank you! (I'll admit it, I was hoping somebody out there > would like my "pseudo Myrtles" thing. It was meant in good spirit!) > > You just said more of what I wanted to say, except I can only guess at and > intuit what I think Joni might be like in person, whereas you've had the > real experience. To me, she almost always comes off as witty and with a wry > sense of humor, particularly about herself--what I was trying to express in > my previous post. ("Wry" is a much better description than my "almost > self-deprecating"). Ha, from me "who's so good with words"---usually. (A > wink and a nod to our dear friend Patti there!). ---I too love Rick's > characterization of "a wink and a smile." That's how I've always > interpreted her now infamous Dylan comments--and his equally infamous > quote, paraphrasing from memory here: "Oh, Joni. She's more like a man." > [Okay, I'm truly obsessive, so I went in search of the actual quote. I have > the Rolling Stone "Cover to Cover" DVD set, but it was easier to Google it > and find it on the JMDL. Ha!] Here it is, in context, from a 1987 RS > interview w/Kurt Loder: > > "BD: ' . . . Showbiz--well, I don't dig it. I don't go to see someone jump > around. I hate to see chicks perform. _Hate_ it.' > KL: 'Why?' > BD: 'Because they whore themselves. Especially the ones that don't > wear anything. > They fuckin' whore themselves.' > KL: 'Even someone like Joni Mitchell?' > BD: 'Well, no. But, then, Joni Mitchell is almost like a _man_ [laughs]. I > mean, I love Joni, too. But Joni's got a strange sense of rhythm that's > all her own, and she lives on that timetable . . . Joni Mitchell is in her > own world all by herself, so she has a right to keep any rhythm she > wants.She's allowed to tell you what time it is.' " > > I think a lot of people misinterpreted that, just as a lot of people either > misinterpreted or took Joni's comments out of context. I'm terrible at > deciphering metaphors and symbolism, so there are > (still!) a fair amount of things I've missed in some of both Mitchell's and > Dylan's lyrics. (I do get it and appreciate it when others discuss and > interpret > them--but my brain just doesn't immediatelygo there when listening on my > own.) On the other hand, when I read and hear interviews with either of > them, I feel like I'm listening to my own kind. LOL I mean, I get them. And > I'm exactly like > Joni (tho far less well-read and accomplished than she) when it comes to > conversation: small talk bores me to tears; I consider a good couple of > hours of truly engaged talk to be A Nice Start. > (I'm also an unrepentant night owl like she is--accident of the genes. But > how I'd love to get a phone call from her at 3 AM . . . prime time!) > > So anyway, those are just more of "so many reasons why" I bristle when I > think Ms. Mitchell is being terribly misunderstood and misjudged by some of > those who should have a little more faith, > let's say, in her spirit and character: those who have followed and know > her artistic journey better than the idle listener. No one has to agree > with or love or worship everything she's ever done orwritten or said, but > she's certainly earned much better than knee-jerk reactions from her > disciples--er, fans. ;-) > > Thinking about going to sleep now, > > Terra > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:54 PM, kbhla wrote: > > > Loved reading all the great and very insightful posts on this subject and > > agree with all. Also loved Terra's coining of the new term "pseudo > > Myrtles" > > heehee! That is just perfect! I guess that we do kind of invoke our > > "Myrtle" side with Joni at times! But I also know it's just because we > > love > > her so much. > > > > > > > > Years ago around here, and before I ever met Joni, I would always defend > > her > > when something controversial would come up in some interview and people > > would get upset and (to me) jump to all kinds of conclusions. Words on a > > flat piece of paper, whether from first or second hand, are sometimes so > > inadequate and so often misunderstood, especially when they are > originating > > from someone like Joni who loves to talk at length about everything and > who > > is so real. It is said that words alone are the least factor in > > communication - body language is the most important factor, followed by > > tone > > of voice, inflection and facial expression. Unless you can observe all > > factors in full, much meaning and context is likely to be lost. > > > > > > > > Before I ever was so lucky to meet Joni, I really imagined that she would > > be > > very aloof and imperious in person. I was beyond surprised on meeting > her > > to find that she was nothing at all like that and was also happily > shocked > > that her personality was so much like someone you've known all your life > - > > "one of the gang". No affectations, no public "star" persona, no polite > > and > > perfuntory niceties just because you are a fan. I've met and talked with > > her three times. Each time she was authentically herself, in the moment > > and > > very animated and funny, in addtion to also being genuinely warm and > > friendly. Oh, and she LOVES to talk and talk and talk (which is a great > > bonus!). That combination of high genius and high ordinariness makes her > > very extraordinary. > > > > > > > > I think some of her words (that sometimes come across as so critical and > a > > bit scalding) might be interpreted differently if experienced in person. > I > > experienced her as very witty and wry in an entertaining, but not at all > > snarky way. She just seems to like to ramble, and talk and free > associate > > a > > lot. I agree with Rick's comment about a "wink and a smile." I also > agree > > with Rick that, despite her ordinariness, she is riduculously famous and > > loved and it all must be overwhelming, and probably unhealthy, at times > to > > have to live too much in "that world". Does she act up and lose her > temper > > at times and sometimes get all crazy? Well, sure she does! Just like > most > > regular people (or at least myself and people I know)! > > > > > > > > I have never thought she owes me anything. I'm always amazed at anything > > she has chosen to put out there for us in the past couple of decades. > This > > was brought home to me again while experiencing the almost supernaturally > > beautiful and perfect Mutts of the Planet tribute on Sunday. We've all > > listened to Joni's music endlessly for most of our lives. We sings her > > songs 24/7 for days on end at Jonifests and gatherings. But there was > > something about the performances on Sunday that evoked in me some kind of > > lifelong flashback of Joni's life and accomplishments. Two thoughts > > predominated - one, it is startling in retrospect to know that Joni wrote > > these songs and music when she was only in her 20s and early 30s, and > two, > > how amazing it was for her to go on all those big tours around the > country > > in '98 with Bob and Van when she was freaking 55 years old and hadn't > > toured > > in 15 years!! Bonus points to Joni for also doing the concert tours in > > 2000 > > with a full orchestra. Throw in a number of art exhibits, collaborations > > with other artists and producing a ballet in Canada and the U.S. Maybe > > there will be more at some point (one can always hope) but wow, what she > > has > > already accomplished in her life well exceeds any reasonable > expectations! > > > > > > > > Kakki > > > > > > -- > "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." > ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #474 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------