From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #393 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jmdl.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 25 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 393 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Adriano lucatello NJC ["patrick leader" ] Re: Adriano lucatello NJC [Robin Adler ] RE: Adriano lucatello NJC [Susan Tierney McNamara ] RE: Court and Spark ["Robert Sartorius" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:21:47 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Adriano lucatello NJC oh i'm so sad to hear this as well. adriano came to at least one fest at full moon in woodstock, as well as the first holycombe fest. i remember he had a comically difficult time getting from jfk to full moon, and kept such good humor about it. my thoughts are with licia and marta, and with all my jmdl friends who are so dear to me. patrick - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of runechilde@gmail.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 6:00 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Adriano lucatello NJC Those of you who knew Adriano and know of his recent recurrance of his illness will be very sad to know he has lost his battle. A gentle and delightful man, he and Licia and Marta were at french fest and they came to UK fest in 2008. He had hoped to come this year but was too ill. He had friends local to me so he and Licia came to see me over the years. He loved "Just like Jerico" so play it for him and wish him well on his journey to the stars. Very sad queen lulu in the UK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 00:27:50 -0700 From: Robin Adler Subject: Re: Adriano lucatello NJC I'm truly saddened to hear of Adriano's passing. He was a lovely soul. My thoughts are with Licia and Marta. Robin On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:59 PM, runechilde@gmail.com wrote: > Those of you who knew Adriano and know of his recent recurrance of his illness will be very sad to know he has lost his battle. > > A gentle and delightful man, he and Licia and Marta were at french fest and they came to UK fest in 2008. > > He had hoped to come this year but was too ill. He had friends local to me so he and Licia came to see me over the years. > > He loved "Just like Jerico" so play it for him and wish him well on his journey to the stars. > > Very sad queen lulu in the UK > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry. wireless device > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) > Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:23:54 > To: > Reply-To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #391 > > > JMDL Digest Monday, October 24 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 391 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto [Cath] > Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto [Lori ] > Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Joni Posters in Toronto [Loren Carter ] > Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #387 [Martha Winkel ] > Re: Photo & Trouble Child and Malibu Colony House connection NJC [Chandr] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:45:48 -0700 (PDT) > From: Catherine McKay > Subject: Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto > > That's pretty f*cked up. Some people need to get their heads out of their > arses and move ahead a bunch of decades. > > I haven't seen one of these posters > yet, maybe because I haven't been down to Queen Street for a few weeks. If I > find one in reasonable shape that's not completely covered in the tape that > binds it to its place, then I will snaffle one. >> ________________________________ >> From: Lori Fye >> To: > JMDL >> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:29:50 AM >> Subject: Re: > "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto >> >>> Lately > posters have been appearing around toronto asking "what would joni >> mitchell >>> do?" >>> >>> they are gorgeous. the background is a grayish cloudscape and > the text is >> like a cut- >>> through to another deep red sunset cloudscape. >> >> The posters were gorgeous ... until people started scrawling stuff on them >> like "give her daughter up for adoption." >> >> I saw that one on Kilauren's FB > page. : ( >> >> Lori >> Tioga, ND >> (was Santa Rosa, CA) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:29:50 -0500 > From: Lori Fye > Subject: Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto > >> Lately posters have been appearing around toronto asking "what would joni > mitchell >> do?" >> >> they are gorgeous. the background is a grayish cloudscape and the text is > like a cut- >> through to another deep red sunset cloudscape. > > The posters were gorgeous ... until people started scrawling stuff on them > like "give her daughter up for adoption." > > I saw that one on Kilauren's FB page. : ( > > Lori > Tioga, ND > (was Santa Rosa, CA) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:34:29 +0100 (BST) > From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" > Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 > > Dear All, > > I have been enjoying the correspondence recently and it did > stimulate me to buy a couple of Joni books, one of which was bWill you > take me as I amb by Michelle Mercer. > Mark Travisb comments on Court > and Spark intrigued me in that I was 18 rather than Markbs 20 when I > first became aware of C & S and Joni Mitchell and fell under her spell. > Having had even less success with girls in 1974 as the bInbetweenersb > (UK sitcom characters b US list members should google the series) did > in 2011. > Anyway, what I found very amusing given Markbs comments on > insecurity, self- consciousness and loneliness, and the comfort he > found in identifying with Jonibs lyrics. The introduction of Michelleb > s book contains a hilarious btestb offered by Michelle and her ilk to > prospective boyfriends, a sort of empathy calibration to find if the > boy felt the same things about Joni as they did. > There is no better > example of the bWomen are from Venus Men are from Marsb divide than > this. My own experience was that listening to the raw emotion and sad > regret of Joni and other presentable female singer-songwriters was > quite comforting and offered a kind of fantasy release; in reality the > experience was all too prosaic. If by any chance one could meet a real > girl like this, and you werenbt too boring to interest them, there > would be the problem of how any relationship with these emotional > wrecks could work in practice, and would one be thrown over within the > day, let alone a week. > So if Michelle and her friends girls had run > their tests on Mitchell devotees like Mark or me, they would have had > responses like how thrilling her vocal gymnastics were, or if only she > didnbt go for the worst sort of bad boys and concentrated on spotty > science students instead, shebd have been much happier. This might have > been the case, even if there was some coincidence of views of the > beautiful poetry and chord voicings. > By contrast, what might be > described as me running the test in reverse on girls (who are always > more mature anyway), almost always went badly. One recognised (me as)an > obsessive straight away, and made the rather unpalatable point that the > vocal gymnastics were very similar. > Nevertheless, it is good for us > fans that the artist is the one that suffers for their art. I am always > ready to excuse my lack of talent, creativity and originality on the > grounds that I am too normal and happy. > > John > > >> ----Original > Message---- >> From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org >> Date: 23/10/2011 05:10 > >> To: >> Subj: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 >> >> JMDL > Digest Sunday, October 23 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 388 > >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >> -------- >> > Re: Court and Spark ["Mark" com>] >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:09:22 -0700 >> From: "Mark" travis@frontier.com> >> Subject: Re: Court and Spark >> >> So much to > respond to and so many thoughts running around my brain. Where >> to > start? What to say? >> >> Take a deep breath...... >> >> Bobsart, >> >> So many > of those lyrics you cited from 'Court and Spark' were the very words > >> that compelled me to identify so strongly with Joni. I was around 20 > at the >> time I first heard them and not in any kind of what you would > call a >> romantic relationship. But I wanted so much to be in one. My > insecurity >> and self-consciousness, however, made that seem hopelessly > out of reach. >> Also the whole description of a one night stand in > 'Down to You' was, >> unfortunately, an all too familiar scenario for me > in those days: >> >> You go down to the pick up station craving warmth and > beauty >> You settle for less than fascination >> A few drinks later you're > not so choosy >> And the closing lights strip off the shadows on this > strange new flesh >> you've found >> Clutching the night to you like a fig > leaf you hurry to the blackness and >> the blankets >> To lay down an > impression and your loneliness >> >> I felt so driven at that point of my > life to find that connection, to lay >> down my loneliness, that I would > put myself through those sometimes >> humiliating experiences. >> >> When I > was in a particularly dark frame of mind 'I'm just living on nerves > >> and feelings with a weak and a lazy mind' felt like it fit me all too > well. >> >> And 'I worry sometimes' is a mind set that plagues me to this > very day. >> >> I guess I had some mental health issues back in those > days! (I'm sure I >> still do.) When Bob Muller first posted about > that theme running through >> 'Court and Spark', I remember suggesting > that an alternate title for the >> album might be 'Love and Madness'. >> > >> The conflict between commitment and freedom can be traced as far back > as >> 'Cactus Tree' from Joni's very first album. I think fear is a > significant >> factor in that conflict. It could be fear of losing her > artistic autonomy. >> It could have grown out of her early initiation > into the negative side of >> sexual relationships - her out of wedlock > pregnancy followed by the >> defection of the baby's father, her > subsequent marriage to another man and, >> if we accept Joni's version > of the story, her husband's betrayal. >> >> From 'Cactus Tree': >> >> Now she > rallies her defenses >> For she *fears* that one will ask her for > eternity >> >> 'I Don't Know Where I Stand' is all about her hesitancy to > reveal her >> feelings to a new lover. She is afraid that the feelings > will not be >> reciprocated. Hurt and disappointment will follow a > rejection so she won't >> send that 'I love you', written in her finest > hand. >> >> From what Joni and Graham Nash have both said about their > relationship, it >> almost seems like Joni projected her own fear of > commitment onto Graham in >> the song 'Willy'. That's debatable I > suppose in light of the photo of the >> two of them riding in a car with > Joni showing Graham the newly written >> lyrics of 'Willy'. >> >> Muller > mentioned 'Help Me' in relation to the theme of mental/emotional > >> instability that I also see running through all of 'Court and Spark'. > That >> 'help me' springs from fear of 'that crazy feeling'. Her past > experiences >> of 'hard hot blazes' that have 'come down to smoke and > ash' have made her >> apprehensive and afraid of exposing herself to > that emotional turmoil again. >> >> 'The Same Situation' describes how > love grants what can be a fearful power >> to the object of that love. > She refers directly to this power later on in >> the song 'A Strange > Boy' - 'I gave him power over me'. In 'The Same >> Situation' she has > given the man the power to pass judgment on her and thus >> manipulate > her emotions. He can either make her feel joy or inflict pain >> and > insecurity. >> >> So she longs for 'somebody who's strong' but adds the > qualification 'and >> somewhat sincere'. She wants 'a strong cat > without claws'. She fears the >> pain that can be inflicted by those > claws. >> >> In the song 'Man to Man' from 'Wild Things Run Fast', the > album that has >> been branded by some as 'love happy', she sings >> > >> When I saw you standing there >> I was *scared*, I thought >> Here's a > place I could break down and care >> I sure hope he can care >> I hope I > can really care >> >> And in 'Moon at the Window' she flat out declares > 'and pleasure always turns >> to fear, I find'. >> >> And yet she craved > that connection and created that tension in her art that >> Bobsart > described. There is a thirst for love pulling her one way and a >> need > for freedom pulling her in the opposite direction. >> >> 'She will love > them when she sees them and she only means to please them' >> but 'she's > so busy being free. >> >> She described how sexual freedom was embraced in > the late 60s and 70s in >> that line 'We love our lovin' but not like we > love our freedom'. >> >> In 'Hejira' she tells us 'We're only particles of > change I know, I know, >> orbiting around the sun' and then asks the > question 'But how can I have that >> point of view when I'm always bound > and tied to someone?' >> >> Finally, my take on 'Miles of Aisles' is that > either Joni or the people in >> control of Asylum's marketing may have > decided that it would be smarter not >> to include a lot of material > from a highly successful record that was still >> a fairly recent > release. 'People's Parties' may have been a teaser for >> people who > first joined the Joni Mitchell party with 'Court and Spark'. I >> think > it was Kakki who suggested that 'Miles of Aisles' was an opportunity > >> to create renewed interest in Joni's back catalogue. If that was the > >> strategy, in my case anyway, it worked. >> >> I'm sure there were other > meanderings of my mind that I missed putting into >> this. After I hit > 'Send' and then re-read what I have written, I almost >> always find > something I wish I had added or changed. >> >> But eventually I say to > myself 'Let go of it, Mark. Let it go.' >> >> Mark in Seattle >> hitting > 'Send' now >> >> - -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert Sartorius > >> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 10:28 AM >> To: joni@smoe.org ; onlyjoni- > digest@smoe.org >> Cc: scjoniguy@yahoo.com >> Subject: RE: Court and Spark > >> >> Bob wrote: >> >> "The whole of C&S is multi-thematic I think, and one > of the streams of theme >> running through it is mental health. >> > >> People's Parties - I told you when I met you I was CRAZY Help Me - > When I >> get this CRAZY feeling.... >> Just Like This Train - Jealous > lovin' will make you CRAZY >> >> And then the bookends that conclude the > album - Trouble Child and Twisted; >> one very heavy dealing with mental > health issues and one very playful. >> >> As much as Hejira is my musical > touchstone on any given day I'll call C&S my >> favorite Joni." >> >> >> Whoa > - - there you go again, Bob, coming for "conversation". Amid the stretch > >> of six original recordings from Blue through Don Juan's Reckless > Daughter, I >> bet a majority of us could say the same about our favorite > and our next >> favorite on any given day, but there would be a pretty > wide distribution of >> answers for the favorite and next favorite. Heck, > you could even throw in >> LOTC and make it seven. At one time or > another, I think I have loved all of >> them the most. >> >> The mental > health theme in Court and Spark rings true to me - I think the >> songs > reveal a vulnerability akin to her "Blue" recording period, which > >> cannot really be masked by the shift from solo performances to having > a band >> and a gang for support. >> >> Some additional bits of evidence > (beyond those cited by Bob above): >> >> Court and Spark - "He saw how I > worried sometimes, I worry sometimes" >> >> People's Parties (more) - "I'm > just living on nerves and >> feelings....fumbling deaf dumb and blind...I > wish I had more sense of humor, >> keeping the sadness at bay, throwing > the lightness on these things, laughing >> it all away...." >> >> The Same > Situation - "You've had lots of lovely women, now you turn your >> gaze > to me, weighing the beauty and the imperfection to see if I'm worthy, > >> Like the church like a cop like a mother, you want me to be truthful > >> Sometimes you turn it one me like a weapon though and I need your > approval". >> This song has been speculated as her Warren Beatty song, > but it could well >> be Jackson Browne, in the context of Car on a Hill - > especially the lines >> "like a mother" and "weapon though, and I need > your approval." >> >> Car on a Hill - "I watch for judgment anxiously" > "I've been sitting up >> waiting for my sugar to show......He said he'd > be over three hours ago..... >> now where in the city can that boy be?" > And, if the "Girls Like Us" account >> is accurate, these concerns > bothered Joni more than a lot. >> >> Down to You - "Everything comes and > goes, pleasure moves on too early and >> trouble leaves too slow, just > when you're thinking you've finally got it >> made, bad news comes > knocking at your garden gate". >> >> Just Like This Train (more) - "I went > looking for a cause, or a strong cat >> without claws, or any reason to > resume......what are you gonna do now, >> you've no one to give your love > to". >> >> Another main theme - the search for love vs the struggle for > higher position >> - - runs through through several of the songs > (continuing, as it were, where >> she left off in For the Roses). >> >> In > terms of inspiration, this album seems more and more to me to have been > >> influenced by her Jackson Browne period, much as her earlier records > were >> inspired by her Cohen, Nash and Taylor periods. I can picture > that >> relationship (and its end and aftermath) as the inspiration for > Help Me, The >> Same Situation, Car on a Hill, Down To You, Just Like > This Train and Trouble >> Child. >> >> Those tensions and themes - mental > health, search for love vs art, the arc >> of a specific relationship - > fueled Joni's art. The more intense the >> moments, the stronger the art, > or so it seems to me. She was going through a >> lot at that time - and a > lot came out of her through it. >> >> One thing that has always raised my > eyebrows - Miles of Aisles was recorded >> and released after Court and > Spark, and recorded during her "Court and Spark >> Tour", yet Joni > included only one C&S song on MOA. Does anybody know why? >> >> >> Bobsart > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:20:29 -0700 (PDT) > From: Loren Carter > Subject: Joni Posters in Toronto > > All, > > Always being on the lookout for Joni related materials for Christmas presents for my wife, I contacted the city of Toronto to inquire about the purchase of none of those "What would Joni Mitchell do?" posters. > > What I received is: > > Unfortunately, these are not city approved posters and > we're not sure who is behind this campaign. They are being postered illegally. > > Alas, I'll need another Joni idea for the coming holiday season. > > Loren > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:34:30 -0400 > From: Martha Winkel > Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #387 > > Some information about the WWJMD posters in Toronto. Appears to be a reliable source, and reason. > > http://designkultur.wordpress.com/?p=38702&preview=true > > MWink > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:48:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00) > From: Chandra > Subject: Re: Photo & Trouble Child and Malibu Colony House connection NJC > > And in 2004, Mark Knopfler recorded Shangri-La at Shangri-La. > > Roch > > > - -----Original Message----- >> From: Moni Kellermann >> Sent: Oct 20, 2011 12:12 PM >> To: Joni List >> Cc: Chandra , Bob Muller >> Subject: Re: Photo & Trouble Child and Malibu Colony House connection NJC >> >> Am 20.10.2011 02:50, Wie Chandra so vortrefflich formulierte: >>> In 1975 the Band moved out to California. Northern Lights - Southern >>> Cross was recorded there. >> >> source: http://shangrilamalibu.com/history >> >> It has been said that those who can find Shangri La will discover inner >> peace, love and prosperity. So wrote author James Hilton in his 1933 >> classic, Lost Horizon, where he portrays the journey to find a mythical >> lamasery high in the mountains of Tibet. The novel was later made into a >> film, starring Jane Wyatt, Ronald Colman and Margo Albert. After the >> film's success, it was Margo who built this rolling ranch house nestled >> in the hills of Zuma Beach, and called it Shangri La. >> >> There is a mythical quality to the property, and it took on many forms >> before becoming one of the most renowned recording studios in the >> history of rock music. For a time, it was an upscale bordello, rumored >> to have hosted the Hollywood elite of the 1950's. In the early 1960's >> TV's Mr. Ed was filmed and stabled at this timeless ranch above the sea. >> >> In the early 1970's Rob Fraboni designed and built the recording studios >> at Shangri La to the precise specifications of Bob Dylan and the Band. >> As president and co-owner of the studio he recorded albums for many >> artists, including 'Northern Lights-Southern Cross' for The Band. >> Drummer for The Band Levon Helm described Shangri La as "...a clubhouse >> and studio where we and our friends could record albums and >> cross-pollinate one another's music" >> >> During this period, Eric Clapton spent nearly three months here, >> recording with the likes of Bob Dylan (who was living in a tent in the >> rose garden), Van Morrison, Ringo Starr, Pete Townshend, Joe Cocker, >> Billy Preston and Ronnie Wood. It was with this all star cast that >> Clapton's 'No Reason To Cry' album was created. In Clapton's biography >> 'Crossroads', he describes the sessions at Shangri La as an intensely >> creative period, where all-night jam sessions and wild parties were the >> norm. >> >> In the mid 1970's, Robbie Robertson and Martin Scorsese used Shangri La >> as a location and rehearsal studio for the film 'The Last Waltz', widely >> hailed as one of the greatest concert films of all time. There are >> several scenes that feature the studio, which gave the public a rare >> look into this famed location. >> >> -- >> >> moni k. > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2011 #391 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- thanks, Robin - ------------------------------------------------- New CD available now! "Safaris to the Heart: The Songs of Joni Mitchell" by Robin Adler & Mutts of the Planet. To listen or learn more: http://www.reverbnation.com/robinadlermuttsoftheplanet To purchase: http://www.robinadler.com/products.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:27:13 +0000 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Adriano lucatello NJC I'm so sad to hear this news ... I met Adriano at the Full Moon the same year Patrick mentioned. We had a lot of fun that weekend and he corresponded with me a couple of times, sharing some Joni music from Italy. My prayers go out to his family and friends. Coincidentally I've been playing Jericho all week, and will think of Adriano every time I play it from now on. Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of runechilde@gmail.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 6:00 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Adriano lucatello NJC Those of you who knew Adriano and know of his recent recurrance of his illness will be very sad to know he has lost his battle. A gentle and delightful man, he and Licia and Marta were at french fest and they came to UK fest in 2008. He had hoped to come this year but was too ill. He had friends local to me so he and Licia came to see me over the years. He loved "Just like Jerico" so play it for him and wish him well on his journey to the stars. Very sad queen lulu in the UK Sent from my BlackBerry. wireless device - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:23:54 To: Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #391 JMDL Digest Monday, October 24 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 391 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto [Cath] Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto [Lori ] Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #387 [Martha Winkel ] Re: Photo & Trouble Child and Malibu Colony House connection NJC [Chandr] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:45:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto That's pretty f*cked up. Some people need to get their heads out of their arses and move ahead a bunch of decades. I haven't seen one of these posters yet, maybe because I haven't been down to Queen Street for a few weeks. If I find one in reasonable shape that's not completely covered in the tape that binds it to its place, then I will snaffle one. >________________________________ >From: Lori Fye >To: JMDL >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:29:50 AM >Subject: Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto > >> Lately posters have been appearing around toronto asking "what would joni >mitchell >> do?" >> >> they are gorgeous. the background is a grayish cloudscape and the text is >like a cut- >> through to another deep red sunset cloudscape. > >The posters were gorgeous ... until people started scrawling stuff on them >like "give her daughter up for adoption." > >I saw that one on Kilauren's FB page. : ( > >Lori >Tioga, ND >(was Santa Rosa, CA) - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:29:50 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: "what would joni mitchell do" posters appearing around toronto > Lately posters have been appearing around toronto asking "what would joni mitchell > do?" > > they are gorgeous. the background is a grayish cloudscape and the text is like a cut- > through to another deep red sunset cloudscape. The posters were gorgeous ... until people started scrawling stuff on them like "give her daughter up for adoption." I saw that one on Kilauren's FB page. : ( Lori Tioga, ND (was Santa Rosa, CA) - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:34:29 +0100 (BST) From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 Dear All, I have been enjoying the correspondence recently and it did stimulate me to buy a couple of Joni books, one of which was bWill you take me as I amb by Michelle Mercer. Mark Travisb comments on Court and Spark intrigued me in that I was 18 rather than Markbs 20 when I first became aware of C & S and Joni Mitchell and fell under her spell. Having had even less success with girls in 1974 as the bInbetweenersb (UK sitcom characters b US list members should google the series) did in 2011. Anyway, what I found very amusing given Markbs comments on insecurity, self- consciousness and loneliness, and the comfort he found in identifying with Jonibs lyrics. The introduction of Michelleb s book contains a hilarious btestb offered by Michelle and her ilk to prospective boyfriends, a sort of empathy calibration to find if the boy felt the same things about Joni as they did. There is no better example of the bWomen are from Venus Men are from Marsb divide than this. My own experience was that listening to the raw emotion and sad regret of Joni and other presentable female singer-songwriters was quite comforting and offered a kind of fantasy release; in reality the experience was all too prosaic. If by any chance one could meet a real girl like this, and you werenbt too boring to interest them, there would be the problem of how any relationship with these emotional wrecks could work in practice, and would one be thrown over within the day, let alone a week. So if Michelle and her friends girls had run their tests on Mitchell devotees like Mark or me, they would have had responses like how thrilling her vocal gymnastics were, or if only she didnbt go for the worst sort of bad boys and concentrated on spotty science students instead, shebd have been much happier. This might have been the case, even if there was some coincidence of views of the beautiful poetry and chord voicings. By contrast, what might be described as me running the test in reverse on girls (who are always more mature anyway), almost always went badly. One recognised (me as)an obsessive straight away, and made the rather unpalatable point that the vocal gymnastics were very similar. Nevertheless, it is good for us fans that the artist is the one that suffers for their art. I am always ready to excuse my lack of talent, creativity and originality on the grounds that I am too normal and happy. John >----Original Message---- >From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org >Date: 23/10/2011 05:10 >To: >Subj: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 > >JMDL Digest Sunday, October 23 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 388 > > > >========== > >TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >-------- > Re: Court and Spark ["Mark" ] > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:09:22 -0700 >From: "Mark" >Subject: Re: Court and Spark > >So much to respond to and so many thoughts running around my brain. Where >to start? What to say? > >Take a deep breath...... > >Bobsart, > >So many of those lyrics you cited from 'Court and Spark' were the very words >that compelled me to identify so strongly with Joni. I was around 20 at the >time I first heard them and not in any kind of what you would call a >romantic relationship. But I wanted so much to be in one. My insecurity >and self-consciousness, however, made that seem hopelessly out of reach. >Also the whole description of a one night stand in 'Down to You' was, >unfortunately, an all too familiar scenario for me in those days: > >You go down to the pick up station craving warmth and beauty >You settle for less than fascination >A few drinks later you're not so choosy >And the closing lights strip off the shadows on this strange new flesh >you've found >Clutching the night to you like a fig leaf you hurry to the blackness and >the blankets >To lay down an impression and your loneliness > >I felt so driven at that point of my life to find that connection, to lay >down my loneliness, that I would put myself through those sometimes >humiliating experiences. > >When I was in a particularly dark frame of mind 'I'm just living on nerves >and feelings with a weak and a lazy mind' felt like it fit me all too well. > >And 'I worry sometimes' is a mind set that plagues me to this very day. > >I guess I had some mental health issues back in those days! (I'm sure I >still do.) When Bob Muller first posted about that theme running through >'Court and Spark', I remember suggesting that an alternate title for the >album might be 'Love and Madness'. > >The conflict between commitment and freedom can be traced as far back as >'Cactus Tree' from Joni's very first album. I think fear is a significant >factor in that conflict. It could be fear of losing her artistic autonomy. >It could have grown out of her early initiation into the negative side of >sexual relationships - her out of wedlock pregnancy followed by the >defection of the baby's father, her subsequent marriage to another man and, >if we accept Joni's version of the story, her husband's betrayal. > >From 'Cactus Tree': > >Now she rallies her defenses >For she *fears* that one will ask her for eternity > >'I Don't Know Where I Stand' is all about her hesitancy to reveal her >feelings to a new lover. She is afraid that the feelings will not be >reciprocated. Hurt and disappointment will follow a rejection so she won't >send that 'I love you', written in her finest hand. > >From what Joni and Graham Nash have both said about their relationship, it >almost seems like Joni projected her own fear of commitment onto Graham in >the song 'Willy'. That's debatable I suppose in light of the photo of the >two of them riding in a car with Joni showing Graham the newly written >lyrics of 'Willy'. > >Muller mentioned 'Help Me' in relation to the theme of mental/emotional >instability that I also see running through all of 'Court and Spark'. That >'help me' springs from fear of 'that crazy feeling'. Her past experiences >of 'hard hot blazes' that have 'come down to smoke and ash' have made her >apprehensive and afraid of exposing herself to that emotional turmoil again. > >'The Same Situation' describes how love grants what can be a fearful power >to the object of that love. She refers directly to this power later on in >the song 'A Strange Boy' - 'I gave him power over me'. In 'The Same >Situation' she has given the man the power to pass judgment on her and thus >manipulate her emotions. He can either make her feel joy or inflict pain >and insecurity. > >So she longs for 'somebody who's strong' but adds the qualification 'and >somewhat sincere'. She wants 'a strong cat without claws'. She fears the >pain that can be inflicted by those claws. > >In the song 'Man to Man' from 'Wild Things Run Fast', the album that has >been branded by some as 'love happy', she sings > >When I saw you standing there >I was *scared*, I thought >Here's a place I could break down and care >I sure hope he can care >I hope I can really care > >And in 'Moon at the Window' she flat out declares 'and pleasure always turns >to fear, I find'. > >And yet she craved that connection and created that tension in her art that >Bobsart described. There is a thirst for love pulling her one way and a >need for freedom pulling her in the opposite direction. > >'She will love them when she sees them and she only means to please them' >but 'she's so busy being free. > >She described how sexual freedom was embraced in the late 60s and 70s in >that line 'We love our lovin' but not like we love our freedom'. > >In 'Hejira' she tells us 'We're only particles of change I know, I know, >orbiting around the sun' and then asks the question 'But how can I have that >point of view when I'm always bound and tied to someone?' > >Finally, my take on 'Miles of Aisles' is that either Joni or the people in >control of Asylum's marketing may have decided that it would be smarter not >to include a lot of material from a highly successful record that was still >a fairly recent release. 'People's Parties' may have been a teaser for >people who first joined the Joni Mitchell party with 'Court and Spark'. I >think it was Kakki who suggested that 'Miles of Aisles' was an opportunity >to create renewed interest in Joni's back catalogue. If that was the >strategy, in my case anyway, it worked. > >I'm sure there were other meanderings of my mind that I missed putting into >this. After I hit 'Send' and then re-read what I have written, I almost >always find something I wish I had added or changed. > >But eventually I say to myself 'Let go of it, Mark. Let it go.' > >Mark in Seattle >hitting 'Send' now > >- -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Sartorius >Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 10:28 AM >To: joni@smoe.org ; onlyjoni- digest@smoe.org >Cc: scjoniguy@yahoo.com >Subject: RE: Court and Spark > >Bob wrote: > >"The whole of C&S is multi-thematic I think, and one of the streams of theme >running through it is mental health. > >People's Parties - I told you when I met you I was CRAZY Help Me - When I >get this CRAZY feeling.... >Just Like This Train - Jealous lovin' will make you CRAZY > >And then the bookends that conclude the album - Trouble Child and Twisted; >one very heavy dealing with mental health issues and one very playful. > >As much as Hejira is my musical touchstone on any given day I'll call C&S my >favorite Joni." > > >Whoa - - - there you go again, Bob, coming for "conversation". Amid the stretch >of six original recordings from Blue through Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, I >bet a majority of us could say the same about our favorite and our next >favorite on any given day, but there would be a pretty wide distribution of >answers for the favorite and next favorite. Heck, you could even throw in >LOTC and make it seven. At one time or another, I think I have loved all of >them the most. > >The mental health theme in Court and Spark rings true to me - I think the >songs reveal a vulnerability akin to her "Blue" recording period, which >cannot really be masked by the shift from solo performances to having a band >and a gang for support. > >Some additional bits of evidence (beyond those cited by Bob above): > >Court and Spark - "He saw how I worried sometimes, I worry sometimes" > >People's Parties (more) - "I'm just living on nerves and >feelings....fumbling deaf dumb and blind...I wish I had more sense of humor, >keeping the sadness at bay, throwing the lightness on these things, laughing >it all away...." > >The Same Situation - "You've had lots of lovely women, now you turn your >gaze to me, weighing the beauty and the imperfection to see if I'm worthy, >Like the church like a cop like a mother, you want me to be truthful >Sometimes you turn it one me like a weapon though and I need your approval". >This song has been speculated as her Warren Beatty song, but it could well >be Jackson Browne, in the context of Car on a Hill - especially the lines >"like a mother" and "weapon though, and I need your approval." > >Car on a Hill - "I watch for judgment anxiously" "I've been sitting up >waiting for my sugar to show......He said he'd be over three hours ago..... >now where in the city can that boy be?" And, if the "Girls Like Us" account >is accurate, these concerns bothered Joni more than a lot. > >Down to You - "Everything comes and goes, pleasure moves on too early and >trouble leaves too slow, just when you're thinking you've finally got it >made, bad news comes knocking at your garden gate". > >Just Like This Train (more) - "I went looking for a cause, or a strong cat >without claws, or any reason to resume......what are you gonna do now, >you've no one to give your love to". > >Another main theme - the search for love vs the struggle for higher position >- - runs through through several of the songs (continuing, as it were, where >she left off in For the Roses). > >In terms of inspiration, this album seems more and more to me to have been >influenced by her Jackson Browne period, much as her earlier records were >inspired by her Cohen, Nash and Taylor periods. I can picture that >relationship (and its end and aftermath) as the inspiration for Help Me, The >Same Situation, Car on a Hill, Down To You, Just Like This Train and Trouble >Child. > >Those tensions and themes - mental health, search for love vs art, the arc >of a specific relationship - fueled Joni's art. The more intense the >moments, the stronger the art, or so it seems to me. She was going through a >lot at that time - and a lot came out of her through it. > >One thing that has always raised my eyebrows - Miles of Aisles was recorded >and released after Court and Spark, and recorded during her "Court and Spark >Tour", yet Joni included only one C&S song on MOA. Does anybody know why? > > >Bobsart - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:20:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Loren Carter Subject: Joni Posters in Toronto All, Always being on the lookout for Joni related materials for Christmas presents for my wife, I contacted the city of Toronto to inquire about the purchase of none of those "What would Joni Mitchell do?" posters. What I received is: Unfortunately, these are not city approved posters and we're not sure who is behind this campaign. They are being postered illegally. Alas, I'll need another Joni idea for the coming holiday season. Loren - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:34:30 -0400 From: Martha Winkel Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #387 Some information about the WWJMD posters in Toronto. Appears to be a reliable source, and reason. http://designkultur.wordpress.com/?p=38702&preview=true MWink - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:48:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chandra Subject: Re: Photo & Trouble Child and Malibu Colony House connection NJC And in 2004, Mark Knopfler recorded Shangri-La at Shangri-La. Roch - - -----Original Message----- >From: Moni Kellermann >Sent: Oct 20, 2011 12:12 PM >To: Joni List >Cc: Chandra , Bob Muller >Subject: Re: Photo & Trouble Child and Malibu Colony House connection NJC > >Am 20.10.2011 02:50, Wie Chandra so vortrefflich formulierte: >> In 1975 the Band moved out to California. Northern Lights - Southern >> Cross was recorded there. > >source: http://shangrilamalibu.com/history > >It has been said that those who can find Shangri La will discover inner >peace, love and prosperity. So wrote author James Hilton in his 1933 >classic, Lost Horizon, where he portrays the journey to find a mythical >lamasery high in the mountains of Tibet. The novel was later made into a >film, starring Jane Wyatt, Ronald Colman and Margo Albert. After the >film's success, it was Margo who built this rolling ranch house nestled >in the hills of Zuma Beach, and called it Shangri La. > >There is a mythical quality to the property, and it took on many forms >before becoming one of the most renowned recording studios in the >history of rock music. For a time, it was an upscale bordello, rumored >to have hosted the Hollywood elite of the 1950's. In the early 1960's >TV's Mr. Ed was filmed and stabled at this timeless ranch above the sea. > >In the early 1970's Rob Fraboni designed and built the recording studios >at Shangri La to the precise specifications of Bob Dylan and the Band. >As president and co-owner of the studio he recorded albums for many >artists, including 'Northern Lights-Southern Cross' for The Band. >Drummer for The Band Levon Helm described Shangri La as "...a clubhouse >and studio where we and our friends could record albums and >cross-pollinate one another's music" > > During this period, Eric Clapton spent nearly three months here, >recording with the likes of Bob Dylan (who was living in a tent in the >rose garden), Van Morrison, Ringo Starr, Pete Townshend, Joe Cocker, >Billy Preston and Ronnie Wood. It was with this all star cast that >Clapton's 'No Reason To Cry' album was created. In Clapton's biography >'Crossroads', he describes the sessions at Shangri La as an intensely >creative period, where all-night jam sessions and wild parties were the >norm. > >In the mid 1970's, Robbie Robertson and Martin Scorsese used Shangri La >as a location and rehearsal studio for the film 'The Last Waltz', widely >hailed as one of the greatest concert films of all time. There are >several scenes that feature the studio, which gave the public a rare >look into this famed location. > >-- > >moni k. - ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #391 ***************************** - ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:31:31 -0400 From: "Robert Sartorius" Subject: RE: Court and Spark Mark, Wonderful post, as usual. And your thoughts are, IMO, so representative of the way in which Joni has connected with her audience through her art over the years, touching sensitive souls of different sexes, races, ages (and generations) alike. Within one of the themes you explored, I also admire I Think I Understand (fear is like a wilderland, stepping stones or sinking sand) - IMO one of her quintessentially powerful early works. And the fear/uncertainty theme is even more strongly balanced and clarified as Joni juxtaposes her worries against the redemptive power of hope.......which in the end helps keeps all of us going (and in some cases may seem to be the only such thing). "I'll challenge them with flashes from a brighter time". What a song ! http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=131 For me, the one downside is that Joni's art is so extraordinary in so many ways (the composition of the music and the lyrics - both in content and form, - the singing, the musicianship, the production quality, the live performance skills, and even the cover art), that its very excellence can be a distraction - it is often hard for me to simply listen and enjoy the songs !!! Bobsart Mark wrote (in part): "So many of those lyrics you cited from 'Court and Spark' were the very words that compelled me to identify so strongly with Joni. I was around 20 at the time I first heard them and not in any kind of what you would call a romantic relationship. But I wanted so much to be in one. My insecurity and self-consciousness, however, made that seem hopelessly out of reach................ When I was in a particularly dark frame of mind 'I'm just living on nerves and feelings with a weak and a lazy mind' felt like it fit me all too well. And 'I worry sometimes' is a mind set that plagues me to this very day......... From 'Cactus Tree': Now she rallies her defenses For she *fears* that one will ask her for eternity......................... 'I Don't Know Where I Stand' is all about her hesitancy to reveal her feelings to a new lover............. From what Joni and Graham Nash have both said about their relationship, it almost seems like Joni projected her own fear of commitment onto Graham in the song 'Willy'........... Muller mentioned 'Help Me' in relation to the theme of mental/emotional instability that I also see running through all of 'Court and Spark'....... 'The Same Situation' describes how love grants what can be a fearful power to the object of that love. She refers directly to this power later on in the song 'A Strange Boy' - 'I gave him power over me'........ In the song 'Man to Man' from 'Wild Things Run Fast', the album that has been branded by some as 'love happy', she sings When I saw you standing there I was *scared*, I thought Here's a place I could break down and care I sure hope he can care I hope I can really care And in 'Moon at the Window' she flat out declares 'and pleasure always turns to fear, I find'................ I'm sure there were other meanderings of my mind that I missed putting into this............." ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #393 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------