From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #212 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jmdl.com JMDL Digest Friday, July 22 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 212 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- DED [Paul Ivice ] DED [Michel BYRNE ] Re: DED [Catherine McKay ] Re: DED [Gerald Notaro ] A minor miracle? [c Karma ] Re: A minor miracle? [Anita G ] RE: Dancing Clown on DED? NJC [Susan Tierney McNamara ] Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury ["Randy Remote" ] RE: A minor miracle? [c Karma ] angry Joni ["Mark" ] Re: angry Joni [Michael Paz ] Re: angry Joni [Catherine McKay ] Re: angry Joni [Bob Muller ] Re: angry Joni [Michael Paz ] Nietzsche [Lc Stanley ] Re: angry Joni [Rob Wh ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 04:26:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ivice Subject: DED Roberto wrote: Dog Eat Dog is now in my Top 7 (ahead of, say, everything earlier than For the Roses) Really? Blue and Ladies of the Canyon are among the albums before For The Roses. I wouldn't mention Dog Eat Dog in the same breath as any of those. I wonder whether people who come to Joni's music later in her catalog or life can really appreciate the changes and musical growth she took us through as we grew and changed along with her. Perhaps I have grown apart from Joni in recent years, but each twist and turn of her musical growth was what awed me about her, Joni was revealed to me when Ladies of the Canyon was her newest work, and Blue was the second album I ever purchased for myself, after Bookends. Ladies of the Canyon (when almost by definition, Woodstock made Joni a spokesperson of a generation) and Blue were when she showed she had staying power in the music business because of her ability to grow or reinvent herself as a musician and artist. After Blue, I went back to explore STAS and Clouds, then watched as she grew into the more sophisticated writing and storytelling as well as the increasing rock and roll influences that came through in For the Roses and then blended into jazz beginning with Court and Spark. I love Hissing, Hejira, Don Juan and Mingus, but Wild things was the last Joni album that I really loved. And while there are songs on later albums I like, Dog Eat Dog was the disconnect for me. I remember watching on TV as she performed the title track at the Farm Aid concert and I was wondering why she was so angry and what happened to the beauty that had filled her music before then. Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:23:46 +0000 From: Michel BYRNE Subject: DED What a great discussion! I'm with Mark and Betsy on this one. Although I don't think of DED as Joni's best in any way, it's probably one of the albums of hers I most listen to. The crashing backbeat is an irritation, I have to admit (I think Dave's comment on generational differences hits it on the nail here), but there was something so fresh about this album when it came out, and to me there still is. To me WTRF had something of a dead-end feel about it, in spite of a few great songs. Though I liked them musically, 'Man to man' and 'Ladies Man' and 'Flat Tires' said nothing that hadn't been better said before, 'Wild things' was very slight, and as to 'Solid Love'.... nice ditty, but can't think of another verse so let's just play the whole thing through once again with no musical variation whatsoever!?? Embarrassing. And then DED came along, and it bristled and sparked and just grabbed you (by the balls, if you were male!)... Lines like 'the dove is in the dungeon', 'some are treated well in these games of buy and sell, and some like poor beasts are burdened down to breaking', 'big forests fell like buffalo', 'deep in the night our appetites find us/bind us/blind us', 'little garden planet, oasis in space', 'the room was dark and full of sharks', 'cool shadows conjure you', etc etc ... it just seemed so fresh, and easily a cut above WTRF imo. Above all Joni's voice seemed to gain a whole new range of expression. And the cover-- one of her best imo (on proper LP gatefold). Like Mark, I doubt if her choice of production had much to do with trying to sound trendy-- she discovered new technology through Klein, and was genuinely excited by it (that comes across in interviews, about the fairlight etc). I doubt she would see it as much different from the way she'd moved across styles and instrumentations in the 70s. But ultimately she does soulful better than anything, and the pared down versions with piano and guitar have a special power. Thanks for the discussion! Michel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 05:11:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: DED I'm enjoying this discussion too. So many different takes and opinions, with some loving it and some hating it, and some just thinking, "Meh!" about the whole thing. I'm either very wishy-washy or else extremely flexible (I like that option better), and I do go back and forth about what I like and don't like. I've also found things that meant nothing to me years ago that I suddenly "get," or that suddenly just sound wonderful to me for some reason. I have to agree with you on the lyrics you've quoted below: these are the lines that come to me sometimes, just out of the blue. Going back to what Richard said earlier about finding the lyrics too simplistic, and others have echoed that they find the angry Joni not as poetic as the earlier Joni from her earliest albums, what I like to think of as her romantic period: when I'm angry, I'm usually not poetic. I suppose I could write an angry poem, but I'm usually just yelling when I'm angry and there are a lot of shorter words, many of them four-letter words. I'm not comparing myself to Joni, but I think that an angry person is more likely to use simpler and terse words. I also wonder whether the older Joni felt a need to speak her mind in simpler terms and just spit it out. The lyrics on "Shine," for example, whether they're commentary on the state of the ecology, or her expression of happiness at finding "This Place" even if it is threatened from without, are much simpler than her early stuff. I do like the poetic Joni and there does seem to be a lot more craft in her word choices but then, the subject matter was much different. In any case, like or dislike, I do like reading all the different opinions on this. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Michel BYRNE > To: joni@smoe.org > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 5:23:46 AM > Subject: DED > > What a great discussion! I'm with Mark and Betsy on this one. Although I don't > think of DED as Joni's best in any way, it's probably one of the albums of > hers I most listen to. [...] And then DED > came along, and it bristled and sparked and just grabbed you (by the balls, if > you were male!)... Lines like 'the dove is in the dungeon', 'some are treated > well in these games of buy and sell, and some like poor beasts are burdened > down to breaking', 'big forests fell like buffalo', 'deep in the night our > appetites find us/bind us/blind us', 'little garden planet, oasis in space', > 'the room was dark and full of sharks', 'cool shadows conjure you', etc etc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:33:23 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: DED And who woulda thunk a Dog Eat Dog discussion would bring so many long timers out of the woodwork??? Even Roberto :-) Great to see. Jerry On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I'm enjoying this discussion too. So many different takes and opinions, > with > some loving it and some hating it, and some just thinking, "Meh!" about the > whole thing. I'm either very wishy-washy or else extremely flexible (I like > that > option better), and I do go back and forth about what I like and don't > like. > I've also found things that meant nothing to me years ago that I suddenly > "get," > or that suddenly just sound wonderful to me for some reason. I have to > agree > with you on the lyrics you've quoted below: these are the lines that come > to me > sometimes, just out of the blue. > > Going back to what Richard said earlier about finding the lyrics too > simplistic, > and others have echoed that they find the angry Joni not as poetic as the > earlier Joni from her earliest albums, what I like to think of as her > romantic > period: when I'm angry, I'm usually not poetic. I suppose I could write an > angry > poem, but I'm usually just yelling when I'm angry and there are a lot of > shorter > words, many of them four-letter words. I'm not comparing myself to Joni, > but I > think that an angry person is more likely to use simpler and terse words. I > also > wonder whether the older Joni felt a need to speak her mind in simpler > terms and > just spit it out. The lyrics on "Shine," for example, whether they're > commentary > on the state of the ecology, or her expression of happiness at finding > "This > Place" even if it is threatened from without, are much simpler than her > early > stuff. I do like the poetic Joni and there does seem to be a lot more craft > in > her word choices but then, the subject matter was much different. > > In any case, like or dislike, I do like reading all the different opinions > on > this. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Michel BYRNE > > To: joni@smoe.org > > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 5:23:46 AM > > Subject: DED > > > > What a great discussion! I'm with Mark and Betsy on this one. Although I > don't > > think of DED as Joni's best in any way, it's probably one of the albums > of > > hers I most listen to. [...] > > And then DED > > came along, and it bristled and sparked and just grabbed you (by the > balls, > if > > you were male!)... Lines like 'the dove is in the dungeon', 'some are > treated > > well in these games of buy and sell, and some like poor beasts are > burdened > > down to breaking', 'big forests fell like buffalo', 'deep in the night > our > > appetites find us/bind us/blind us', 'little garden planet, oasis in > space', > > 'the room was dark and full of sharks', 'cool shadows conjure you', etc > etc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 14:29:27 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: A minor miracle? Since it was announced (was it last year?), I'd watched the approaching Brian Blade/Joni's Jazz show like a train wreck in slow motion. While happy and not the palest shade of green for all the JMDListers making plans to hook up and sit together for the show, I thought I'd never have the opportunity to get out to the west coast for the show due to business and family obligations. I could not have predicted the cascade of events that seem to be making my path to Los Angeles for that week a likely reality, in my wildest imagination. Does anyone know of a single ticket available in the JMDL Dress Circle? It would be a blast to see listers I have not seen since "Voices" in Saskatoon. Failing that, are there still tickets available? Talk about karma. CC "In daydreams of Birdland, I see my soul on fire burning up the bandstand." -- JM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:50:54 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: A minor miracle? I looked the day before yesterday, thinking 'Can I do this?' and there were some tickets on benches available. Sadly, it seemed a plane ride too far and dollars too many, but I did dream......... Anita x > Failing that, are there still tickets available? > Talk about karma. > CC > "In daydreams of Birdland, I see my soul on fire burning up the bandstand." -- > JM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:45:41 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Dancing Clown on DED? NJC My bad ... !! From: Bob Muller [mailto:scjoniguy@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 11:01 PM To: Walt Breen; Susan Tierney McNamara; Jonilist Digest Subject: Re: Dancing Clown on DED? NJC LOL, you're DED on Walt, except for that I'm not at a Beijing (Peking? not for awhile now) bar as it's Thursday 11:00 AM here and I'm (kind of) working. Bob ________________________________ From: Walt Breen To: Sue Tierney McNamara ; Jonilist Digest ; Bob Muller Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 10:39:04 AM Subject: Dancing Clown on DED? The second I saw that you placed Dancing Clown on DED, I thought I could hear Bob Muller in a Peking Bar growling NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Walt "Little" Breen Well, I'm learning it's peaceful With a good dog and some trees Out of touch with the breakdown Of this century We're not gonna fix that up Too easy (Joni Mitchell, "Electricity", 1972) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:25:04 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury Great song, great energy! Saw a guy in the balcony in orange shirt that might have been Paz? RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:19:00 -0400 From: Michael Sentance Subject: A Kennedy Center honor? A nice mention in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/kennedy-center-should-honor-sly - -and-family-stone-led-zeppelin-joni-mitchell/2011/07/15/gIQAPBbDSI_story.html Pop Music: Kennedy Center should honor Sly and Family Stone, Led Zeppelin, Joni Mitchell ( ASSOCIATED PRESS ) - Rock singer Sylvester \"Sly\" Stone of Sly and the Family Stone, April 1972. Thursday, July 21, 2:49 PM When Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend  the two surviving members of the Who  came to Washington in 2008, they werent just the first really loud rock-and-roll band to receive the Kennedy Center Honors. They were the first band, period. But now the doors are open. And while it might get crowded, theres no ignoring that the boomer generation often produced its pop music icons in configurations of four or more. * Sly and the Family Stone * Theres no band more deserving. Sly and the Family Stonesmulti-race, mixed-gender lineup epitomized the social idealism of 1960s America, and the groups protest songs melted genres with a funky, euphoric electricity that has never been matched. And while frontman Sly Stone, 68, was the creative furnace behind the groups glory years, it was the Family Stones first incarnation that helped make its music resonate with so many: guitarist Freddie Stone, 64, trumpeter Cynthia Robinson, 65, drummer Greg Errico, 62, saxophonist Jerry Martini, 67, bassist Larry Graham, 64, and keyboardist Rose Stone, 66, who joined a year into the bands career. Plus, theyd all look really great in those rainbow-ribboned medals. And Prince might show up to sing Everyday People in tribute. * Led Zeppelin * Should the godfathers of heavy metal get a heavy medal? Absolutely. The surviving members of Led Zeppelin  guitarist Jimmy Page, 67, singer Robert Plant, 62, and bassist John Paul Jones, 65  have left their fingerprints on nearly every piece of rock-and-roll rubble that came in their thundering wake. And since were honoring a lifetime of achievement here, its important to note that the members who are still living  drummer John Bonham died in 1980  are still achieving alongside their acolytes: Page recently came down from Mount Olympus to jam with Jack White and the Edge in the film It Might Get Loud, Plant has made some stunning folk music with Alison Krauss, and Jones is still bruising eardrums with Dave Grohl and Josh Homme in the generation-jumping supergroup Them Crooked Vultures. * Joni Mitchell * Prince a pop dynamo who should surely receive Kennedy Center Honors of his own, someday  is stingy when it comes to praising his heroes, but hes always been a vocal devotee of Mitchell, 67, who currently stands as was one of the most influential singers of the 20th century. The Canadian-born songwriter may not have played Woodstock, but she did write the best song about it (Woodstock) before settling into a legendary folk-rock scene in L.A.s Laurel Canyon. There, Mitchells music would take on brilliant new shapes. Her run of albums during the 1970s  including her confessional Blue, her enduring Court and Spark and her secret masterstroke The Hissing of Summer Lawns  served as connective tissue between three of Americas greatest pop forms: folk, rock and jazz. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:06:23 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: RE: A minor miracle? Keep dreaming, it can happen! Last minute deals! > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:50:54 +0100 > Subject: Re: A minor miracle? > From: lawntreader@googlemail.com > To: ckarma@hotmail.com > CC: joni@smoe.org > > I looked the day before yesterday, thinking 'Can I do this?' and there > were some tickets on benches available. Sadly, it seemed a plane ride > too far and dollars too many, but I did dream......... > Anita x > > > Failing that, are there still tickets available? > > Talk about karma. > > CC > > "In daydreams of Birdland, I see my soul on fire burning up the bandstand." -- > > JM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 18:36:00 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: angry Joni I had meant to post about this after it aired, but now it fits right in with the recent thread about 'Dog Eat Dog' and angry Joni Mitchell songs (although the song this relates to is not on DED). The final Jeopardy answer on 7/11/11 (I looked the date and wording up on a blog called 'Bob's Blog', not Muller, I trust) was as follows: 18th Century Quotations: 2 yrs. before his 1794 execution, he said, bI am no courtier, nor moderatorb& nor defender of the people: I am myself the peopleb After Alex Trebec made some remark about this person sending hundreds to the guillotine himself I was able to guess the answer: Robespierre. The only reason I was able to guess the answer was because of the line from 'Sex Kills' 'and lawyers haven't been this popular since Robespierre slaughtered half of France'. Alas for the huge gaps in my general knowledge, I have never even bothered to find out exactly who Robespierre was. I just assumed he was a figure in the French Revolution and the subsequent Reign of Terror. And I have to confess, I have never read Nietzsche. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:02:10 -0400 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: angry Joni Ban this man from the LIST immediately! oh the horroR! Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:36 PM, Mark wrote: I had meant to post about this after it aired, but now it fits right in with the recent thread about 'Dog Eat Dog' and angry Joni Mitchell songs (although the song this relates to is not on DED). The final Jeopardy answer on 7/11/11 (I looked the date and wording up on a blog called 'Bob's Blog', not Muller, I trust) was as follows: 18th Century Quotations: 2 yrs. before his 1794 execution, he said, bI am no courtier, nor moderatorb& nor defender of the people: I am myself the peopleb After Alex Trebec made some remark about this person sending hundreds to the guillotine himself I was able to guess the answer: Robespierre. The only reason I was able to guess the answer was because of the line from 'Sex Kills' 'and lawyers haven't been this popular since Robespierre slaughtered half of France'. Alas for the huge gaps in my general knowledge, I have never even bothered to find out exactly who Robespierre was. I just assumed he was a figure in the French Revolution and the subsequent Reign of Terror. And I have to confess, I have never read Nietzsche. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:20:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: angry Joni You know about as much as me about Robespierre. And I've never read Nietzsche either. So there. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mark > To: joni > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 9:36:00 PM > Subject: angry Joni > > > Alas for the huge gaps in my general knowledge, I have never even bothered to >find out exactly who Robespierre was. I just assumed he was a figure in the >French Revolution and the subsequent Reign of Terror. > > And I have to confess, I have never read Nietzsche. > > Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:50:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: angry Joni And I have also not read Nietzsche - the only reason I know about him is from googling "three great stimulants" a while ago looking (in vain) for covers of the song. It was then that I saw that she borrowed Nietzsche's words, which she admits - I just don't recall seeing it anywhere in the credits and had always thought the whole "artifice, brutality and innocence" were her own words. Bob NP: Jackson Browne, "Rock Me On The Water" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:18:42 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: angry Joni damn its a fecking conspiracy! Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Jul 21, 2011, at 8:20 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: You know about as much as me about Robespierre. And I've never read Nietzsche either. So there. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mark > To: joni > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 9:36:00 PM > Subject: angry Joni > > > Alas for the huge gaps in my general knowledge, I have never even bothered to > find out exactly who Robespierre was. I just assumed he was a figure in the > French Revolution and the subsequent Reign of Terror. > > And I have to confess, I have never read Nietzsche. > > Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 23:07:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Lc Stanley Subject: Nietzsche Here are some Nietzsche quotes for you. B I thought of Joni especially when I read the last one one since she told theB L.A. TimesB in 2000 when asked about pop music:B "I think it is in a horrible state. I don't even think of it as music anymore, but just the 'ic' business. It's 'icky' because the 'muse' has gone out of it. The divinity that it once contained is gone. B Enjoy! Love, Laura A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. In heaven all the interesting people are missing. In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them! Man is the cruelest animal. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. One must have a good memory to be able to keep the promises one makes. Talking much about oneself can also be a means to conceal oneself. The advantage of a bad memory is that one enjoys several times the same good things for the first time. The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it. The overman...Who has organized the chaos of his passions, given style to his character, and become creative. Aware of life's terrors, he affirms life without resentment. The visionary lies to himself, the liar only to others. To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity. To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence. What else is love but understanding and rejoicing in the fact that another person lives, acts, and experiences otherwise than we dob&? When one has much to put into them, a day has a hundred pockets. When you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back at you. You need chaos in your soul to give birth to a dancing star. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness. But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful! Digressions, objections, delight in mockery, carefree mistrust are signs of health; everything unconditional belongs in pathology. Poets are shameless with their experiences: they exploit them. He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil. Only sick music makes money today. http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Friedrich_Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 23:10:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Rob Wh Subject: Re: angry Joni I tried to read Nietzsche once and gave up: life's just too damn short and one must make choices. In the 1979 Rolling Stone interview with Cameron Crowe Joni recalled bonding quite quickly and easily with Jaco because, like her, he recognized that Nietzsche was funny. Presumably he's one of those German philosophers who goes down best with white powder ... Roberto ________________________________ From: Catherine McKay To: Mark ; joni Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:20:59 PM Subject: Re: angry Joni You know about as much as me about Robespierre. And I've never read Nietzsche either. So there. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mark > To: joni > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 9:36:00 PM > Subject: angry Joni > > > Alas for the huge gaps in my general knowledge, I have never even bothered to >find out exactly who Robespierre was. I just assumed he was a figure in the >French Revolution and the subsequent Reign of Terror. > > And I have to confess, I have never read Nietzsche. > > Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #212 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------