From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #211 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jmdl.com JMDL Digest Thursday, July 21 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 211 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: DED confession [Gerald Notaro ] Re: DED confession [jlamadoo@sbcglobal.net] Re: Lots of topics - DED, Aging children, covers and more [Paul Castle ] Re: DED confession [Anita G ] CatDog [Walt Breen ] Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury [LC Stanley ] DED covers [betsyblue82@gmail.com] Re: DED confession [Anita G ] Re: CatDog [Anita G ] Re: CatDog [Catherine McKay ] Re: CatDog [Gerald Notaro ] RE: Alternate DED ["kbhla" ] Re: DED confession ["Mark" ] Re: DED covers [Bob Muller ] Re: DED covers [betsyblue82@gmail.com] Was CatDog, now acoutics [Walt Breen ] Dancing Clown on DED? [Walt Breen ] Re: DED covers [Dave Blackburn ] Re: DED covers [Corey Blake ] Re: DED covers [Bob Muller ] Re: Dancing Clown on DED? NJC [Bob Muller ] Re: DED covers [Bob Muller ] DED discussion [Rob Wh ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:06:12 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: DED confession I think it is a little more than that, Dave. I love acoustic, but I also love electronic music, even though I came of age in the 60's and 70's. I think it is a matter of matching styles. The match between Moby and electronica is a good one. Not so much with Joni. Jerry On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > I think sound preferences are generational. People now in their 30's and > 40's grew up with computer based music and it sounds just right to them. If > you came of age in the 1960's and 70's, acoustic or electric music played by > actual musicians with the inevitable "flaws" that contains (out of tune > notes, tempo variations, sloppy performances etc) sounds like good music. > One person's 'improved production technique' is another's death knell to all > they hold dear. I'm sure the same was true when big band swing got replaced > by rock n roll in the early 50's. > > Dave > > > > On Jul 20, 2011, at 8:37 AM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: > > >> I like DED for the lyrics though not for the sound. > > > > Oh Marion, I think the sound is superior to the lyrics. > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:19:09 -0700 (PDT) From: jlamadoo@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: DED confession >From listening to the superior transfer from the original master tapes in the 'Geffen Box Set', I hear all kinds of nuances and subtleties that I hadn't noticed in the original cd pressing. I think this was the first of Joni's albums that was released after the advent of the cd. I remember refusing to buy it until the cd version was released. I think most of us know that there have been some pretty shoddy jobs of putting music on cd, especially when the technology was new.> Absolutely. The music itself was full of sharp angles and the terrible transfer to CD made it sound a lot like static or tape hiss. The DED in the Geffen Box really is better. I agree with anyone who has said that (on DED) we missed the piano. Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:56:37 +0100 From: Paul Castle Subject: Re: Lots of topics - DED, Aging children, covers and more Just realised that I forgot to include 'Three Great Stimulants' from the same session - so I thought I'd include links to the interview sections as well. In Part 2 of the interview I particularly love hearing Joni (who after DJRD hadn't played piano for about a year) talking about phoning Henry Lewy and saying that "we've got to go into the studio" as she'd just discovered you can't hit a wrong note on the piano "y'know, you hit a wrong note twice and it's right" - and then demonstrating this improvisational technique on piano - what she later calls her 'scoop and capture' method of songwriting. Love it! Introduction, Interview, Part 1 - http://cl.ly/3r1T0i3X1W0g1V3z1J0r Three Great Stimulants - http://cl.ly/1a47192x1j3q0q2o2A2m Interview Part 2 + Piano Improvisation - http://cl.ly/1T2j373z0k2T1o2H0b1O Impossible Dreamer - http://cl.ly/2u0G1I210Y0z0U1D1K3c Interview Part 3 with Larry Klein - http://cl.ly/2f0f0x412o1b391t022N Interview Part 3 continued - http://cl.ly/1L2R392v3J3Q1P3o2n1i Dog Eat Dog - http://cl.ly/18152Z2P1m2w0T3S2626 best to all PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:05:52 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: DED confession Actually I put all my BobCovers into album playlists, and I actually had to combine DED/ChalkMark/NRH into one playlist and most of them are NRH covers. Sad, really. :-) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Bob Muller Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 4:40 AM To: T Peckham; Mark; JMDL Subject: Re: DED confession And FWIW only 1 "official" cover of a DED song, 25 years later. (Ethiopia by Terri Lynne Carrington). Many more on NRH, TI, even TTT. Bob NP: Radiohead, "Supercollider" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:24:46 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: DED confession Just on DED, the opening of 'Good Friends' is one of my all favourite openings of any album at any time. The delayed 'see yous', behind Joni's lead vocal, going on to 'down town atmosphere', the 'Oh' and the CRASH of the drums. Absolutely delicious. It does it for me every time. I would like to add that I saw Joni sing 'Good Friends' on theTerry Wogan Show and told my tale of the event (which makes me nearly cry laughing to this day) at: http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/detail.cfm?id=1592 Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:06:00 -0600 From: Walt Breen Subject: CatDog Anyone else a fan of that cartoon, btw? Goofy, but it had its moments... But that's not why I brought it up. There are only two Joni albums I have trouble with: DED and TtT, and in both cases, it has to do with the sound: overprocessed, canned, distorted, whatever you want to call it. [Huh, "California" just came on on pandora :-).] The songs are basically okay (I prefer TtT). I remember bringing this up with Tiger, but nobody else (that I recall) seemed to underfstand what I was complaining about. Didn't Joni use some technology to "spread out" and "multiply" the pianos on the album? (Sounds biblical, doesn't it?) Walt "Little" Breen Well, I'm learning it's peaceful With a good dog and some trees Out of touch with the breakdown Of this century We're not gonna fix that up Too easy (Joni Mitchell, "Electricity", 1972) Let the walls come tumbling down Let them fall right on the ground Let all the dogs go running free The wild and the gentle dogs Kenneled in me (Joni Mitchell, Jericho, 1974) Visit my website: www.learninginsights.info ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:13:03 -0500 From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury Hi Y'all, My son Peter had me come to the TV when he realized it was the PHJ Band. He kept trying to spot Paz and thought he saw him, but I couldn't confirm it. As far as keeping up goes... the coffee is really good in LA and so are the meetings. Love, Laura On Jul 20, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > Yeah, I better start taking my vitamins if I want to keep up with that LA > crowd in August!!!! :) > > From: Gerald Notaro [mailto:notaro@mail.usf.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:44 AM > To: Susan Tierney McNamara > Cc: T Peckham; Michael Paz; JMDL > Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury > > I, too, tried my darnedest to stay awake. Damn that getting old thing. > > Jerry > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara > > wrote: > Of course I fell asleep but I did watch the performance here this morning: > > http://theaudioperv.com/2011/07/20/the-del-mccoury-band-preservation-hall-jaz > z-band-ill-fly-away-719-letterman/ > > Really great!! Was there a shot of Paz in the audience? I'd love to have > seen him holding court in the first row!!! :-) > > Take care, Sue > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of T > Peckham > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:24 PM > To: Michael Paz; JMDL > Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury > > Thanks for the heads-up! But why won't you be backstage? Say hey to Biff for > me--he's my fave. :^) > > On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Michael Paz > >wrote: > >> Hi Everyone >> Watch for us on the Letterman show tonight. I will se sitting in the >> audience. >> I will have to you. >> >> Luv >> >> Paz >> >> >> Michael Paz >> michael@thepazgroup.com >> >> Tour Manager >> Preservation Hall Jazz Band >> http://www.preservationhall.com >> > > > > -- > "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." > ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:42:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: CatDog - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Walt Breen > To: Jonilist Digest > Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 2:06:00 PM > Subject: CatDog > > Anyone else a fan of that cartoon, btw? Goofy, but it had its moments... But > that's not why I brought it up. There are only two Joni albums I have trouble > with: DED and TtT, and in both cases, it has to do with the sound: > overprocessed, canned, distorted, whatever you want to call it. [Huh, > "California" just came on on pandora :-).] The songs are basically okay (I > prefer TtT). I remember bringing this up with Tiger, but nobody else (that I > recall) seemed to underfstand what I was complaining about. Didn't Joni use > some technology to "spread out" and "multiply" the pianos on the album? > (Sounds biblical, doesn't it?) > My major complaint against TtT is the way the guitar sounds. I think Joni may have recently acquired her VG8 at the time and I find the guitar sounds kinda muddy and kinda the same all the way through. We may be talking about the same thing, Walt. Come to think of it, I have a similar problem with some of the songs on "shine." I haven't listened to TtT for a while though, so maybe I'll give it another shot. Overprocessed is definitely a word that comes to mind. It's probably really tempting to try out all the different sounds and echo effects and so on. We have a Yamaha keyboard that I bought 15 years or so ago. Sometimes it's fun to switch the voice and get all these weird effects but I still like the "grand piano" sound the best. Maybe it's the years of being smacked with a knitting needle on the knuckles by the nun who taught me (I exaggerate: she didn't really smack and she was actually quite nice, even if she must have been at least 100 years old!), but I still like the sound of a piano without all that electronic shee-it behind it. I don't mind DED and I do listen from time to time. I prefer the straight piano version of "Good Friends" that's on the Geffen box set and/or one of the live-Jonis I acquired somewhere (Rock Masterclass, I guess? Dunno, as I'm not home and can't check - I'm at work, goofing off, because it's friggin' hot outside and I'm down to my last 15-1/2 days of working until "School's out - forever!" so what are they gonna do, fire me?) I tend to get the songs from DED and WTRF mixed up. (Kinda looks like, Dead... WTF?, doesn't it?) and can never remember which song is on which. P.S. I think I've seen CatDog, but that was ages ago! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:07:27 +0000 From: betsyblue82@gmail.com Subject: DED covers >And FWIW only 1 "official" cover of a DED song, 25 years later. (Ethiopia by Terri Lynne Carrington). >Many more on NRH, TI, even TTT. >Bob How has nobody covered Shiny Toys? Or Lucky Girl? They're pop perfection, ripe for a glossy redo with none of the depth of the original. - -Betsy Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:40:02 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: DED confession Glad you 'liked' it, Sue. It is the truth! Yeah, it was rubbed in and I'm still smarting! A xx On 20 July 2011 19:35, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > OMG, that story was HYSTERICAL!!! Thanks for sharing that Anita. ROTFL. :-) Talk about rubbing it in. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anita G [mailto:lawntreader@googlemail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 1:25 PM > To: betsyblue82@gmail.com > Cc: Susan Tierney McNamara; Dave Blackburn; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: DED confession > > Just on DED, the opening of 'Good Friends' is one of my all favourite > openings of any album at any time. The delayed 'see yous', behind > Joni's lead vocal, going on to 'down town atmosphere', the 'Oh' and > the CRASH of the drums. Absolutely delicious. It does it for me every > time. > > I would like to add that I saw Joni sing 'Good Friends' on theTerry > Wogan Show and told my tale of the event (which makes me nearly cry > laughing to this day) at: > > http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/detail.cfm?id=1592 > > Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:57:40 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: CatDog I always knew, Catherine, you shared so much with Joni, but I never knew it was the vicious piano teacher syndrome (VPT as I am sure I have heard it called in therapy circles). Pianos sure do sound good without electronic shhee-it, but I also do enjoy the electronic shhe-it, too! Reading all the stuff folk are writing fills me once again with awe that the thing that binds us all (the music of one JM) has been so diverse. That woman really tried stuff out, didn't she? Through musical times with James Taylor, Sneeky Pete, David Crosby, Thomas Dolby, Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Mingus, Tom Scott, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock etc. etc. How glad I am that I've been there for a fair bit of the ride! Anita Catherine wrote: Maybe it's the years of being smacked with a knitting > needle on the knuckles by the nun who taught me (I exaggerate: she didn't really > smack and she was actually quite nice, even if she must have been at least 100 > years old!), but I still like the sound of a piano without all that electronic > shee-it behind it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:48:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: CatDog I think it's just the Way Things Were Done back then. My piano teacher didn't really smack people. She used the knitting needle as a pointer, to point to notes (either in the music book or on the piano) and she would sometimes tap me with it on the wrists so I'd remember to keep my wrists up. I think some of the electronic shee-it sounds fine but I suspect people are kind of like kids in the candy shop when they get to play with those kinds of toys, so they want to put EVERYTHING in. This, of course, contradicts my earlier argument that Joni tended to use the same effects a lot when she first got the VG8. Maybe it's not even her - maybe it's just that it was an early version and that was its only basic voice. There are certain voices on our Yamaha that I quite like: there's one that's called Dark Moon or something like that, another that sounds kind of like angel voices singing, one that sounds like a funk organ, and then there's the one with the percussion thingities on it. Too bad I never really learned how to play it right. Like many similar toys (the ukulele, the banjo, various guitars, a set of drums), it often sits there gathering dust. (I never dust, either.) Fortunately Matthew likes to try out the instruments, and now he's asking for a mandolin for his birthday. I just might get him one (so I can try it out - ha ha!) I agree with you that Joni has definitely been much more adventurous than most, particularly with respect to the musicians she played with, and they were just as happy to play with her, of course. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Anita G > To: Catherine McKay > Cc: Jonilist Digest > Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 3:57:40 PM > Subject: Re: CatDog > > I always knew, Catherine, you shared so much with Joni, but I never > knew it was the vicious piano teacher syndrome (VPT as I am sure I > have heard it called in therapy circles). > > Pianos sure do sound good without electronic shhee-it, but I also do > enjoy the electronic shhe-it, too! Reading all the stuff folk are > writing fills me once again with awe that the thing that binds us all > (the music of one JM) has been so diverse. That woman really tried > stuff out, didn't she? Through musical times with James Taylor, Sneeky > Pete, David Crosby, Thomas Dolby, Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Mingus, Tom > Scott, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock etc. etc. How glad I am that I've > been there for a fair bit of the ride! > Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:01:24 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: CatDog Thanks for pointing out that distinction, Catherine. I will always admire Joni's creative courage, even when I don't always admire the results ( Dog Eat Dog, Mingus.) Jerry On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I think it's just the Way Things Were Done back then. My piano teacher > didn't > really smack people. She used the knitting needle as a pointer, to point to > notes (either in the music book or on the piano) and she would sometimes > tap me > with it on the wrists so I'd remember to keep my wrists up. > > I think some of the electronic shee-it sounds fine but I suspect people are > kind > of like kids in the candy shop when they get to play with those kinds of > toys, > so they want to put EVERYTHING in. This, of course, contradicts my earlier > argument that Joni tended to use the same effects a lot when she first got > the > VG8. Maybe it's not even her - maybe it's just that it was an early version > and > that was its only basic voice. There are certain voices on our Yamaha that > I > quite like: there's one that's called Dark Moon or something like that, > another > that sounds kind of like angel voices singing, one that sounds like a funk > organ, and then there's the one with the percussion thingities on it. Too > bad I > never really learned how to play it right. Like many similar toys (the > ukulele, > the banjo, various guitars, a set of drums), it often sits there gathering > dust. (I never dust, either.) Fortunately Matthew likes to try out the > instruments, and now he's asking for a mandolin for his birthday. I just > might > get him one (so I can try it out - ha ha!) > > I agree with you that Joni has definitely been much more adventurous than > most, > particularly with respect to the musicians she played with, and they were > just > as happy to play with her, of course. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Anita G > > To: Catherine McKay > > Cc: Jonilist Digest > > Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 3:57:40 PM > > Subject: Re: CatDog > > > > I always knew, Catherine, you shared so much with Joni, but I never > > knew it was the vicious piano teacher syndrome (VPT as I am sure I > > have heard it called in therapy circles). > > > > Pianos sure do sound good without electronic shhee-it, but I also do > > enjoy the electronic shhe-it, too! Reading all the stuff folk are > > writing fills me once again with awe that the thing that binds us all > > (the music of one JM) has been so diverse. That woman really tried > > stuff out, didn't she? Through musical times with James Taylor, Sneeky > > Pete, David Crosby, Thomas Dolby, Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Mingus, Tom > > Scott, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock etc. etc. How glad I am that I've > > been there for a fair bit of the ride! > > Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:30:37 -0700 From: "kbhla" Subject: RE: Alternate DED Thanks, Paul! This version of Impossible Dreamer sounds like it could have fit perfectly on For The Roses. So beautiful. From: studio16a@gmail.com [mailto:studio16a@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Paul Castle Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:57 AM To: joni@smoe.org; kbhla Cc: Gerald Notaro; Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: Re: Lots of topics - DED, Aging children, covers and more Just realised that I forgot to include 'Three Great Stimulants' from the same session - so I thought I'd include links to the interview sections as well. In Part 2 of the interview I particularly love hearing Joni (who after DJRD hadn't played piano for about a year) talking about phoning Henry Lewy and saying that "we've got to go into the studio" as she'd just discovered you can't hit a wrong note on the piano "y'know, you hit a wrong note twice and it's right" - and then demonstrating this improvisational technique on piano - what she later calls her 'scoop and capture' method of songwriting. Love it! Introduction, Interview, Part 1 - http://cl.ly/3r1T0i3X1W0g1V3z1J0r Three Great Stimulants - http://cl.ly/1a47192x1j3q0q2o2A2m Interview Part 2 + Piano Improvisation - http://cl.ly/1T2j373z0k2T1o2H0b1O Impossible Dreamer - http://cl.ly/2u0G1I210Y0z0U1D1K3c Interview Part 3 with Larry Klein - http://cl.ly/2f0f0x412o1b391t022N Interview Part 3 continued - http://cl.ly/1L2R392v3J3Q1P3o2n1i Dog Eat Dog - http://cl.ly/18152Z2P1m2w0T3S2626 best to all PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:43:45 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: DED confession our last Joni tribute. Ithaca is a very cause-related town and the crowd loved it ... he did a very roots style version with African chimes and a great violinist. It was a beautiful rendition. Also, I think Tax Free is a relevant song right now!! :-) sue Amen, Sister! (Sorry. Couldn't resist) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:00:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: DED covers Because of all the studio trickery and glossiness, what song quality IS there is buried. The album wasn't popular and didn't get much exposure and certainly doesn't now. Meanwhile, people hearing Blue for example, songs like All I Want, A Case of You, River...the accessibility and beauty of these songs is painfully obvious. To my ears, Impossible Dreamer is the easiest song on the ear, although my favorite track is Ethiopia. Shiny Toys is basically just a re-write of The Police's "De Doo Doo Doo" which she admits that she loved and wishes she had written. You'd think at least it would be picked up by a dildo company. I thought The Three Great Stimulants was brilliant lyrically until I discovered that basically all she did was rip off Nietschze. (She did the same with "Love" on WTRF but at least she was obvious about it and the result was a much prettier song anyway and a PERFECT album closer). With so many top-notch Joni songs to choose from it would be (and history has proven it to be so) extremely unlikely that a recording artist would pick a DED song to cover. With all the the Joni tribute CD's issued to date (and there have been a lot of them), not ONE has chosen a DED song, even Mutts of the Planet who do an excellent job of diving for the deep and challenging tracks skip it. WTRF is the only 1 of the 80's albums to generate any heat in the covers arena. Bob NP: DBT's, "A World Of Hurt" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:16:45 +0000 From: betsyblue82@gmail.com Subject: Re: DED covers Present company excluded, I don't believe artists' choice of Joni covers has anything to do with song quality. It's all about the appearance of being influenced by a "legend". It's the very definition of pretentiousness. (Grammar police, come get me!) So the Big Yellow Taxi covers keep coming and the unknown-yet-worthwhile songs/albums are left behind. I didn't realize I could get so argumentative while listening to HH's Sweet Bird ;) - -Betsy Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry - -----Original Message----- From: Bob Muller Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:00:10 To: ; Subject: Re: DED covers Because of all the studio trickery and glossiness, what song quality IS there is buried. The album wasn't popular and didn't get much exposure and certainly doesn't now. Meanwhile, people hearing Blue for example, songs like All I Want, A Case of You, River...the accessibility and beauty of these songs is painfully obvious. To my ears, Impossible Dreamer is the easiest song on the ear, although my favorite track is Ethiopia. Shiny Toys is basically just a re-write of The Police's "De Doo Doo Doo" which she admits that she loved and wishes she had written. You'd think at least it would be picked up by a dildo company. I thought The Three Great Stimulants was brilliant lyrically until I discovered that basically all she did was rip off Nietschze. (She did the same with "Love" on WTRF but at least she was obvious about it and the result was a much prettier song anyway and a PERFECT album closer). With so many top-notch Joni songs to choose from it would be (and history has proven it to be so) extremely unlikely that a recording artist would pick a DED song to cover. With all the the Joni tribute CD's issued to date (and there have been a lot of them), not ONE has chosen a DED song, even Mutts of the Planet who do an excellent job of diving for the deep and challenging tracks skip it. WTRF is the only 1 of the 80's albums to generate any heat in the covers arena. Bob NP: DBT's, "A World Of Hurt" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:29:41 -0600 From: Walt Breen Subject: Was CatDog, now acoutics Yeah, Katherine , I think we're hearing the same things on Tiger. I know this is SO not Joni, but I've *love* it if she did an "acoustic" album (just her and piano or her and guitar unadorned, unprocessed) of the best of both of those two albums. Jane Siberry did an album called "Teenager" when her muse kinda ran dry (maybe -- just guessing) in the mid- or late '90's, all of which were songs she wriiten before she was 20 but never recorded. Like many child prodigies (Laura Nyro, Carole King, Janis Ian, Kate Bush) who had dozens or hundreds of songs written before they ever recorded, Joni, who started slightly later, had quite a portfolio, most of which I've heard thanks to this excellent company of jmdlers. Odd you should mention having trouble sometimes remembering whether a given song is from WTRF or DED; I do the same occasionally with CMIaRS and NRH, even through they're so very different. She peaked out on what I call her "vertical songwriting period" (think Lakota or Snakes and Ladders, where there are three or four lines piled vertically, but the invidual lines are short); this versus her "horizontal" period, peaking on Hejira, where she crammed so many sullables into each line. She still did a little of the verticality on NRH, but she'd defintely returned to her earlier song formats, with narratives rather than impressionism. I think NRH was the most listenable album she'd done since C&S. Speaking of "acoustic", has anyone else noticed a trend in recent years of the term being misued? Some people seem to think it means "Easy Listening" or "Folk Rock", both terms I hate. I realize that reduced to its most narrow, rigid sense, it wouldn't be recordable; but I've heard it in reference to music that is very highly processed and manipulated and distorted, and I'm wondering, "How the hell is this acoustic? Sensitive lyrics? No blood spilled during performance?" Curmudgeonly as always, Walt "Little" Breen Well, I'm learning it's peaceful With a good dog and some trees Out of touch with the breakdown Of this century We're not gonna fix that up Too easy (Joni Mitchell, "Electricity", 1972) Let the walls come tumbling down Let them fall right on the ground Let all the dogs go running free The wild and the gentle dogs Kenneled in me (Joni Mitchell, Jericho, 1974) Visit my website: www.learninginsights.info > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:42:32 -0700 > From: anima_rising@yahoo.ca > Subject: Re: CatDog > To: littlebreen@live.com; joni@smoe.org > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Walt Breen > > To: Jonilist Digest > > Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 2:06:00 PM > > Subject: CatDog > > > > Anyone else a fan of that cartoon, btw? Goofy, but it had its moments... But > > that's not why I brought it up. There are only two Joni albums I have trouble > > with: DED and TtT, and in both cases, it has to do with the sound: > > overprocessed, canned, distorted, whatever you want to call it. [Huh, > > "California" just came on on pandora :-).] The songs are basically okay (I > > prefer TtT). I remember bringing this up with Tiger, but nobody else (that I > > recall) seemed to underfstand what I was complaining about. Didn't Joni use > > some technology to "spread out" and "multiply" the pianos on the album? > > (Sounds biblical, doesn't it?) > > > > My major complaint against TtT is the way the guitar sounds. I think Joni may > have recently acquired her VG8 at the time and I find the guitar sounds kinda > muddy and kinda the same all the way through. We may be talking about the same > thing, Walt. > > Come to think of it, I have a similar problem with some of the songs on "shine." > I haven't listened to TtT for a while though, so maybe I'll give it another > shot. Overprocessed is definitely a word that comes to mind. It's probably > really tempting to try out all the different sounds and echo effects and so on. > We have a Yamaha keyboard that I bought 15 years or so ago. Sometimes it's fun > to switch the voice and get all these weird effects but I still like the "grand > piano" sound the best. Maybe it's the years of being smacked with a knitting > needle on the knuckles by the nun who taught me (I exaggerate: she didn't really > smack and she was actually quite nice, even if she must have been at least 100 > years old!), but I still like the sound of a piano without all that electronic > shee-it behind it. > > I don't mind DED and I do listen from time to time. I prefer the straight piano > version of "Good Friends" that's on the Geffen box set and/or one of the > live-Jonis I acquired somewhere (Rock Masterclass, I guess? Dunno, as I'm not > home and can't check - I'm at work, goofing off, because it's friggin' hot > outside and I'm down to my last 15-1/2 days of working until "School's out - > forever!" so what are they gonna do, fire me?) > > I tend to get the songs from DED and WTRF mixed up. (Kinda looks like, Dead... > WTF?, doesn't it?) and can never remember which song is on which. > > P.S. I think I've seen CatDog, but that was ages ago! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:39:04 -0600 From: Walt Breen Subject: Dancing Clown on DED? The second I saw that you placed Dancing Clown on DED, I thought I could hear Bob Muller in a Peking Bar growling NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Walt "Little" Breen Well, I'm learning it's peaceful With a good dog and some trees Out of touch with the breakdown Of this century We're not gonna fix that up Too easy (Joni Mitchell, "Electricity", 1972) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:40:50 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: DED covers That being said, Bob, I have written guitar/piano arrangements of both Tax Free and Ethiopia and uploaded them to Joni Mitchell.com and you yourself witnessed us doing Dog Eat Dog at Holycombe and an excerpt of Lucky Girl at Idyllwild. So the album is not entirely lacking in covers attention. I have a slamming arrangement of Empty Try Another formulating in my head to boot...! Dave On Jul 20, 2011, at 7:00 PM, Bob Muller wrote: > With so many top-notch Joni songs to choose from it would be (and history has > proven it to be so) extremely unlikely that a recording artist would pick a DED > song to cover. With all the the Joni tribute CD's issued to date (and there have > been a lot of them), not ONE has chosen a DED song, even Mutts of the Planet who > do an excellent job of diving for the deep and challenging tracks skip it. WTRF > is the only 1 of the 80's albums to generate any heat in the covers arena. > > Bob > > NP: DBT's, "A World Of Hurt" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:53:58 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: DED covers I would love to hear your Empty Try Another arrangement, Dave! I've wanted to try doing a modern version, perhaps with a sly reference to the pot dispensaries getting shut down in LA. But doing sampling and mixing like that is a bit beyond my skill set. It's not my favorite Joni song by any means, but it's a fun and unexpected deviation. It's so unlike anything Joni had recorded up to that point, and it was interesting how she used recordings of real world sounds and looping to create a song. I think Ethiopia is a great song and probably the stand-out on the album. It's not her strongest album but I appreciated her experimenting with modern sounds. At least she was trying instead of just recycling past successes, which is a frequent standard formula for plenty popular music. Corey On Jul 20, 2011, at 7:40 PM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > That being said, Bob, I have written guitar/piano arrangements of both Tax Free and Ethiopia and uploaded them to Joni Mitchell.com and you yourself witnessed us doing Dog Eat Dog at Holycombe and an excerpt of Lucky Girl at Idyllwild. So the album is not entirely lacking in covers attention. I have a slamming arrangement of Empty Try Another formulating in my head to boot...! > > Dave > > > On Jul 20, 2011, at 7:00 PM, Bob Muller wrote: > >> With so many top-notch Joni songs to choose from it would be (and history has >> proven it to be so) extremely unlikely that a recording artist would pick a DED >> song to cover. With all the the Joni tribute CD's issued to date (and there have >> been a lot of them), not ONE has chosen a DED song, even Mutts of the Planet who >> do an excellent job of diving for the deep and challenging tracks skip it. WTRF >> is the only 1 of the 80's albums to generate any heat in the covers arena. >> >> Bob >> >> NP: DBT's, "A World Of Hurt" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:02:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: DED covers you yourself witnessed us doing Dog Eat Dog at Holycombe and an excerpt of Lucky Girl at Idyllwild.> Yes, and I loved the way that Robin used it as a means of band introduction. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:00:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Dancing Clown on DED? NJC LOL, you're DED on Walt, except for that I'm not at a Beijing (Peking? not for awhile now) bar as it's Thursday 11:00 AM here and I'm (kind of) working. Bob ________________________________ From: Walt Breen To: Sue Tierney McNamara ; Jonilist Digest ; Bob Muller Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 10:39:04 AM Subject: Dancing Clown on DED? The second I saw that you placed Dancing Clown on DED, I thought I could hear Bob Muller in a Peking Bar growling NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Walt "Little" Breen Well, I'm learning it's peaceful With a good dog and some trees Out of touch with the breakdown Of this century We're not gonna fix that up Too easy (Joni Mitchell, "Electricity", 1972) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: DED covers I would love to hear your Empty Try Another arrangement, Dave> This reminds me of the "I's A Muggin'" interpretation that P.M. Dawn did back at the Joni's Jazz Central Park gig. I like them anyway and I thought this was brilliant, not sure how it was received by the crowd as it was VERY experimental, taking the Joni-Mingus bit and sampling it and rapping over it and such. If I was in Greenville I'd spin it right now. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:47:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Rob Wh Subject: DED discussion Greetings all, Having read the recent thread about DED with interest I thought I'd weigh in with my own $0.02 worth. When I became a JMDLer way back in February 1998 I introduced myself to the group with a long-winded and rather arrogant post in which, among other ill-advised things, I described Dog Eat Dog as "execrable." At the time I simply didn't believe that anybody could like anything about that album. Various listers persuaded me to give it a second spin, and I did, but I just couldn't hear it as anything but Joni at her second best: valiant but (as Rolling Stone said) clumsy. My issue was never with the sound or production (although I think I'll pick up the Geffen release if the sound is so much better than what was released in 1985), or even with the tunes (although to my ears they weren't as ingratiating as on her '70s albums). It was with the lyrics, which impressed me, at the time, as contrived, strained, and even naive. So after this thread it was timely that the ballet Fiddle and the Drum was on TV tonight. It was my first time seeing it and I found it profoundly moving. So, I dug out my Dog Eat Dog CD and was overwhelmed by it. Now the lyrics strike me as probing, honest, passionate and (something I never thought I'd say 25 years ago) unforced. The tunes to which they are set are great. The singing is extraordinarily powerful. Whatever it is that has changed my response to this album has, of course, nothing to do with Dog Eat Dog itself; it is what it always has been. We all evolve as humans, and our priorities and criteria change (what else could make getting older bearable?); I am happy that my own evolution has opened my heart and mind to this extraordinary album. I don't have a "Top 5" list of Joni albums - certainly, though, Dog Eat Dog is now in my Top 7 (ahead of, say, everything earlier than For the Roses) and the added bonus is that, after all these years, I feel like I can post to the list without feeling jaded and cynical. Cheers and very best, Roberto ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #211 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------