From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #144 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jmdl.com JMDL Digest Monday, May 16 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 144 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Happy 35th Birthday Hejira [Paul Castle ] Re: delusional diseases and drugs ["Marian" ] Re: delusional diseases & drugs [T Peckham ] Re: delusional diseases & drugs [T Peckham ] Re: Happy 35th Birthday Hejira [Lieve Reckers ] Re: delusional diseases and drugs [Anita G ] RE: delusional diseases and drugs ["Marian" ] Re: delusional diseases and drugs [T Peckham ] Re: delusional diseases and drugs [Anita G ] Rayna with Paul Simon (njc) [Paul Castle ] Blast from the Past - njc [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Rayna with Paul Simon (njc) [Em ] Re: delusional diseases and drugs [Lc Stanley ] RE: delusional diseases and drugs [Susan Tierney McNamara ] Re: delusional diseases and drugs [Anita G ] RE: delusional diseases and drugs [Susan Tierney McNamara ] New Library item: Judges hand down the law with help from Bob Dylan [TheS] Re: Re: delusional diseases and drugs [Anne Sandstrom ] RE: delusional diseases and drugs [Susan Tierney McNamara ] RE: delusional diseases and drugs [Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: Re: Happy 35th Birthday Hejira Great thread! - and welcome Carmel. For me, it was just 'the next Joni Mitchell album'. I had bought every one as soon as I could since first discovering her in 1968 when I heard someone playing Marcie at a folk club in Oxford (UK). My strongest memory is being completely blown away by Amelia - dazzled by its amazing chord structure and 'hexagram of the heavens' type lyrics- although it took a while before it dawned on me who the song was about as I didn't really know much about Amelia Earheart at the time. I was lucky enough to see her perform this a few years later when she played at Wembley Arena in 1983 - just found it on YouTube http://youtu.be/omiUBnbX22E In fact, I was really lucky to see her that night as I didn't have a ticket - had always hated gigs I'd been to at Wembley Arena - cavernous echoey dump! But on the evening of the gig I couldn't stop thinking that Joni would be playing only about 20 minutes down the road - so I just went and hung around outside and, just before showtime, found a group of people with a spare ticket - lovely people, all serious Joniacs! Had such a fantastic night (cavernous echoes, crooked neck - the seats were facing sideways - and all) best to all PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 00:40:00 -0700 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs Maybe I misinterpret what has been said so far, but I find myself feeling surpised that so many seem to be willing to accept the delusional explanation of Morgellons as more of a possibility than it actually existing. There is much "anectodal evidence" to be found in the internet if one looks for it - a lot of it silly for sure (e.g., that it was introduced by extraterrestrials, that it comes from chemtrails, etc.), but I have found much of it convincing, especially the personal accounts of Morgellons suffers in various support forums. If this disease exists, and I for one am convinced that it does, you do not ever want to get it. I hope that our Joan will find a cure. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 02:55:38 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: delusional diseases & drugs Jenny: All you said, times ten. Corey: I wish the best for your wife and you. The American Soc. Sec. disability system is yet another national disgrace, along with our corporate-controlled health care system. When I was discussing possible treatment options with a psychiatrist at the sliding-scale clinic I go to, she agreed with my "primary care" physician that I should apply for disability. (Severe depression and anxiety disorder, bipolar 2, in case anybody wonders. Oh, and severe osteoarthritis.) In the same breath, she also told me the name of a local law firm that specializes in helping folks who've been turned down for SS Disability the first time they apply (most). I looked her steadily in the eye and said something like "And* I'm* the one who's crazy?" I asked *her* how it felt to do her job inside that kind of system, and whether she felt it made any sense. Not surprisingly, she had no answer. Sue: As usual, I admire your ability to listen to and consider several points of view, factor in your own, and look at the broader picture thru that filter. I may not always agree with everything you write, but at least I'm certain you've taken the time to think about it. Paul: One of the more disappointing facets of human nature is some people's utter inability to accept or even consider the validity of anything they haven't experienced themselves. Maybe I should feel sorry for those who lack imagination, but not when they deny the reality of another person's suffering and dismiss it so arrogantly. I agree that far too many studies are commissioned and sometimes carried out by those with an agenda (usually financial), and that even legitimate studies are often cited prematurely by the media, who are by most appearances quite lazy. And then people form opinions without being truly informed, and blather on about them on msg. boards and in blogs, and in America, at least, that becomes The Truth. For a while, until the next big study comes out, or the next trend in thinking rolls in (influenced by god-knows-what) and medical and public opinion changes, and so does treatment. I have even more (!!) to say on this subject, but I'll say it on Anita's thread. (You're forewarned). :-P Terra On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > Corey, prayers to you and your wife that all goes well. > > What's interesting is that my ex-husband used to be the number one ranter > in > the "delusional" camp until he was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and > fibromyalgia, both auto-immune diseases. From my perspective, his ailments > may have resulted from high stress on his system due to PTS issues from his > childhood, spinal fusion surgery and a VERY INTENSE A personality!! This is > anectdotal, plus I am coming from a very high biased (bitter) perspective!! > > So in Joni's case, maybe many factors over a lifetime, including childhood > polio, a very high profile active creative life, and let's not forget her > lifelong chain smoking, could have put stress on her immune system to > result > in Morgellons. Just a theory. My ex also smoked since he was 9. He was > given > permission to smoke in the house by his parents when he was 13. > > Take care, Sue > > From: Corey Blake [mailto:coreyblake@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:03 PM > To: Paul Ivice > Cc: Susan Tierney McNamara; jrgoodspeed@gmail.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: delusional diseases & drugs > > And my point is that I think people use hypochondria as a "go to" so they > don't have to deal with the unsolvable. One study says people with actual > hypochondria make up about 3% of patients, and yet you'd think it was > hovering > around 50%. > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Paul Ivice > > wrote: > I'm sorry that your wife is ill, but you're actually supporting my point, > which is that the hypochondriacs make it harder > for people like your wife who are legitimately sick to get accurate > diagnoses > and compassionate treatment. > > > Error! Filename not specified. Paul Ivice ;>) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Corey Blake > > To: Susan Tierney McNamara > > Cc: Jenny Goodspeed >; > Paul Ivice >; joni > > > Sent: Thu, May 12, 2011 3:51 pm > Subject: Re: delusional diseases & drugs > 8 or 9 years ago, my wife was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. But it > took > her several doctors before someone actually listened to them. They all said > it > would go away or that it was nothing, she was actually fine or that it was > probably in her head from stress. Well it was in her head. Two lesions. > Last > summer she was diagnosed with lupus as well, which means she has to avoid > sunlight like the plague. > > I understand that hypochondria does exist, but I think assuming that before > anything else is lazy, insulting and not even very logical. > "Self-fulfilling > prophecy"? That's the same logic that claims people want to be gay because > they get such wonderful treatment and attention, but it's really just > made-up. > Please. > > Sorry, but I'm a little sensitive about this topic right now, as we're > fighting for social security to admit that two full-blown autoimmune > diseases > are significant enough to count as disability. > > -Corey > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara > > wrote: > Jenny, I have several friends with fibromyalgia and I'm happy that they are > finally getting the help they need with this debilitating problem. It > seems > like more and more people I know are suffering from chronic migraines and I > wonder what that is all about? I also strongly agree that doctors should > just > say they don't know and keep up the research. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of > Jenny > Goodspeed > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:10 PM > To: Paul Ivice > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: delusional diseases & drugs > > There is a long history in medicine of calling a condition delusional when > current technologies can't quantify it scientifically. Especially > conditions primarily suffered by women. Just saying... > > I have to call you out on the fibromyalgia Paul. The brain and spinal cord > process pain signals differently for people with fibromyalgia and they > react > more strongly to touch and pressure, with a heightened sensitivity to pain. > It is a real physiological and neurochemical problem (unfortunately for > me.) It's often tied to a sleep disorder. > > The reason it's diagnosis is more widely accepted now is b/c there have > been > studies in recent years clearly documenting various aspects of central > nervous system dysfunction in people with the condition. > > With regards to Morgellons - lack of evidence is simply lack of evidence. > To conclude a disorder is delusional in the face of a dearth of evidence is > just a huge leap. > > Jenny > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Paul Ivice > > wrote: > > > Sue wrote: > > How many people worldwide are we talking about? If we do buy the > > delusional > > diagnosis, does it happen in isolation or in a "mass hysteria" > environment? > > If > > doctors are defaulting to a delusional diagnosis because they don't have > > enough information, why do they have to put a label on it? Do > > anti-depressants > > or anti-psychotics relieve the symptoms? I guess these are the questions > > that > > come to the top of my mind because of the way doctors turned around about > > Fibromyalgia (or was that because some pharmaceutical company came up > with > > a > > drug and they needed a disease?) I'm feeling like I have both Scully and > > Muldar arguing in my head!! Forgive me!!! > > > > > > There are examples of both in history. Most of the medical community > > thought > > people who had what is now called Lyme Disease attributed that illness to > > delusions early on. > > As for Fibromyalgia, I think Sue is right in saying that was a drug > looking > > for a disease to treat. Both of the people I know who claim to suffer > from > > Fibromyalgia are most likely delusional. > > Perhaps evidence will be found at some point that moves Morgellon's from > > the > > delusional category to something more convincing, but for now count me > > among > > those who see it as a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who believe they > > have > > it. > > > > Paul Ivice ;>) > > > > > > -- > Jenny Goodspeed > 1/3 of The Boxcar Lilies > http://www.boxcarlilies.com > > Coming up details at > www.boxcarlilies.com/shows.html > 4/29 Hooker-Dunham Theater, Brattleboro, VT with Cahalen & Eli > 5/14 Hilltown Spring Festival, Cummington Fairgrounds, MA > 5/23 The Art Barn Songwriter Series, Cotuit, MA > 6/4 Flat Street Brew Pub, Brattleboro, VT > 6/25 The Tin Angel, Philadelphia, PA - with Beaucoup Blue > 6/26 - In the Studio with Gene Shay, WXPN Philadelphia > 7/16 The Green River Festival, Greenfield, MA > Save the date! We're headlining at the Iron Horse (Northampton, MA) on > November 27th > > > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.CoreyBlake.com - a whole lot of me > > Do you Dig Comics? http://www.digcomics.com/ > > Live improv comedy and sketch comedy videos - > http://www.magicmeathands.com/ > > > > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.CoreyBlake.com - a whole lot of me > > Do you Dig Comics? http://www.digcomics.com/ > > Live improv comedy and sketch comedy videos - > http://www.magicmeathands.com/ > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 03:01:03 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: delusional diseases & drugs Sorry 'bout that--I meant to say Kakki's thread. ;-) On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:55 AM, T Peckham wrote: > > > I have even more (!!) to say on this subject, but I'll say it on Anita's > thread. (You're forewarned). :-P > > Terra ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:01:18 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Happy 35th Birthday Hejira Hi Paul, my experience was very much parallel to yours, but minus the gigs as I was in Belgium! I also kept appreciating Joni from when I had heard her early songs (Marcie, Michael from Mountain, etc) and was particularly blown away by Amelia: the chords, the lyrics and the (i.e. Jaco's) haunting bass line. And my goodness, I so agree about the horrible acoustics of Wembley Arena! I saw Steely Dan there, and am convinced they would have stopped playing if they could have heard themselves the way I heard them! Lieve To: Mags ; joni@smoe.org Cc: carmel rotem ; Bob Muller ; Gerald Notaro ; Catherine McKay ; Dan Olson ; Anita Sent: Monday, 16 May 2011, 8:45 Subject: Re: Happy 35th Birthday Hejira Great thread! - and welcome Carmel. For me, it was just 'the next Joni Mitchell album'. I had bought every one as soon as I could since first discovering her in 1968 when I heard someone playing Marcie at a folk club in Oxford (UK). My strongest memory is being completely blown away by Amelia - dazzled by its amazing chord structure and 'hexagram of the heavens' type lyrics- although it took a while before it dawned on me who the song was about as I didn't really know much about Amelia Earheart at the time. I was lucky enough to see her perform this a few years later when she played at Wembley Arena in 1983 - just found it on YouTube http://youtu.be/omiUBnbX22E In fact, I was really lucky to see her that night as I didn't have a ticket - had always hated gigs I'd been to at Wembley Arena - cavernous echoey dump! But on the evening of the gig I couldn't stop thinking that Joni would be playing only about 20 minutes down the road - so I just went and hung around outside and, just before showtime, found a group of people with a spare ticket - lovely people, all serious Joniacs! Had such a fantastic night (cavernous echoes, crooked neck - the seats were facing sideways - and all) best to all PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:39:40 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs Marian, I don't doubt this illness 'exists', whatever the explanation for it. For me, it doesn't matter about its origin. I don't know, really, why people get some hung up on where it comes from in order for it to be taken seriously. It's certainly serious for the sufferers and their families and it exists for them in a very real way. That's all, I think, that matters. The fact is that people are suffering with some truly dreadful symptoms. Let's hope research helps us understand Morgellons better and that somethings can be found to ease those who endure these truly awful symptoms. The real problem is that people/doctors label things as 'delusional' when they don't fit into an understood frame of reference and, for those who are ill, it must feel like they are being dismissed. Who knows where or how this particular illness starts? I don't think it should matter at all other than to those who are trying to research it and have to start somewhere. I really recommend the 'Mad,Bad and Sad' book I mentioned in an earlier post for a real insight into the way we use words and dismiss and abuse those with the unfortunate label of 'delusional' Anita x On 16 May 2011 08:40, Marian wrote: > Maybe I misinterpret what has been said so far, but I find myself feeling > surpised that so many seem to be willing to accept the delusional > explanation of Morgellons as more of a possibility than it actually > existing. There is much "anectodal evidence" to be found in the internet > if one looks for it - a lot of it silly for sure (e.g., that it was > introduced by extraterrestrials, that it comes from chemtrails, etc.), > but I have found much of it convincing, especially the personal > accounts of Morgellons suffers in various support forums. If this > disease exists, and I for one am convinced that it does, you do not ever > want to get it. I hope that our Joan will find a cure. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 02:18:21 -0700 From: "Marian" Subject: RE: delusional diseases and drugs Anita wrote: > The real problem is that people/doctors label things as 'delusional' > when they don't fit into an understood frame of reference and, for > those who are ill, it must feel like they are being dismissed. Yes, I completely agree with this. Also, thanks for the book reference! Marian > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs > From: Anita G > Date: Mon, May 16, 2011 10:39 am > To: Marian > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Marian, I don't doubt this illness 'exists', whatever the explanation > for it. For me, it doesn't matter about its origin. I don't know, > really, why people get some hung up on where it comes from in order > for it to be taken seriously. It's certainly serious for the sufferers > and their families and it exists for them in a very real way. That's > all, I think, that matters. > > The fact is that people are suffering with some truly dreadful > symptoms. Let's hope research helps us understand Morgellons better > and that somethings can be found to ease those who endure these truly > awful symptoms. > > The real problem is that people/doctors label things as 'delusional' > when they don't fit into an understood frame of reference and, for > those who are ill, it must feel like they are being dismissed. Who > knows where or how this particular illness starts? I don't think it > should matter at all other than to those who are trying to research it > and have to start somewhere. > > I really recommend the 'Mad,Bad and Sad' book I mentioned in an > earlier post for a real insight into the way we use words and dismiss > and abuse those with the unfortunate label of 'delusional' > Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 04:39:29 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs Thanks for continuing this discussion in a different thread, Kakki. I agree with almost all the comments and viewpoints here, but I want to specifically say how much I appreciate Anita's. First, thanks for the recommendation of the book "Mad, Bad and Sad." I saw a review and bought a copy a couple of years ago, but have yet to read the whole thing. (One of the paradoxes of my profession, alas!) Based on your rec, I'll move it (closer) to the top of the pile. ;-) It also gives me an opportunity to recommend three books, two of which I proofread (which is, unfortunately, not quite the same as reading them for pleasure). All three are essential, IMO, to understanding the current state of mental health care (or lack thereof) and the larger medical issues surrounding it. (The books focus mainly on the U.S., but we're all connected one way or another now.) I won't provide anything other than the titles/authors. If interested, reviews etc. on all can be found at the usual sources, i.e., Amazon, google search, et al. The first is "Manufacturing Depression" by Gary Greenberg, himself a sufferer of chronic major depression and a practicing psychotherapist. "Anatomy of an Epidemic--Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America" by Robert Whitaker, an award-winning journalist/author. "Unhinged: The Trouble with Psychiatry--A Doctor's Revelations About a Profession In Crisis," by Daniel J. Carlat. An insider expose of the insidious connections between the pharmaceutical industrial complex, the AMA, and the lack of universal health care in the U.S., plus a look at the political-sandbox-squabbling that goes into the ratings of the psychiatrists' bible, the DSM--IV. Anita stated my viewpoint about our overall health beautifully (and likely much more succinctly than I could have.) I just need to add two things: We ALL need to stop with the one-size-fits-all attitudes and ideas and treatments. Human beings are extraordinarily complex structures. Any reputable scientist, doctor, and/or researcher freely admits that the sum total of what we know about how our bodies and brains work (never mind the spirit!) is easily dwarfed by what we don't know. Given that fact, learning about chemical dependencies and the surrounding issues from AA is on the same level as judging Joni's musical output on the basis of listening to Judy Collins' recording of "Both Sides, Now." While AA and Al Anon have doubtless helped many people (free of charge), they've also done some damage, particularly since the 12-step model has been incorporated into the U.S. justice system. Any group that touts itself as the ONLY way to quit an addiction (particularly one whose recidivism rates are thru the roof) and who tells anyone, but particularly women, to give control of themselves over to "a Higher Power" ("however one chooses to define that" notwithstanding) is full of shite in my book. As for NAMI, their heart is in the right place, but they still shy away from being truly effective, IMO, because they're still afraid of provoking the very fears and misunderstandings--the stigma--that they're pledged to fight. Which is what this is all based on in the first (and last) place: fear. Most people fear the unknown; the "other"; the idea that "that"--whatever terrible affliction or life circumstance--could happen to THEM. That "it" is mostly out of our control. That's why it's so easy for some to blame others for their own misfortune: She must have done *something* to deserve whatever bad has happened to her! Well, maybe, but certainly not always. (Altho, there is that thing about bad karma . . . or just plain old bad luck.) My point (and I do have one!) is that NOBODY KNOWS for sure. Nobody in this life, anyway. I think I realized this around the age of fifteen or so, but it didn't stop me from being judgmental and critical and somewhat ignorant of others' experiences in my early twenties. Luckily, I was taught by example to have compassion for others pretty much no matter what the circumstances. I guess I'm still learning and working on it, because I'm more critical than ever of those who lack it. Yak yak. Terra On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 6:02 PM, wrote: > No one could have said it better Anita. Whatever Joni is suffering from, > she is suffering. Compassion is what we can give. > > Jimmy > > In a message dated 5/15/2011 6:37:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lawntreader@googlemail.com writes: > > > I don't know if these words make much sense. I guess I'm just saying > > that there is a lot of suffering in so many different ways. The best > > thing, I reckon, is compassion for each other and all things, > > Anita x > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 11:56:10 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs Terra, I couldn't agree with you more, especially in relation to the unknown and of the notion of fear. Being with the unknown is scary. It puts us in contact with our powerlessness. Although we can exert control over many aspects of our lives, in the big things we are truly powerless. Learning to be okay with that is quite a challenge! How hard we try to KNOW things and to be CERTAIN. However, without the drive to know things and to be certain we wouldn't do any research. What a paradox to hold on these ideas and thoughts. But so much is paradoxical. I must go and play BSN! Thank you for the other books to check out Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 13:16:50 +0100 From: Paul Castle Subject: Rayna with Paul Simon (njc) Love this!! (where's my hanky?) The set-up: >During a show in Toronto on May 7, Rayna Ford, a fan from Newfoundland, called out for Simon to play "Duncan," and said something to the effect that she learned to play guitar on the song. In a moment of astonishment and disbelief, Paul Simon invited her on stage, handed her a guitar and asked her to play it for the crowd. http://n.pr/mLNuvR best to all PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 08:25:32 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Blast from the Past - njc Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, whose songs were recently featured on Glee, is the number three album on iTunes this week. And Muller, Helplessness Blues from the Fleet Foxes, is number four. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 06:20:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Rayna with Paul Simon (njc) I love that!!!!!!! not quite the right key for her, but still, I think she did a great job. What a nice smile Rayna has. And Paul is just wonderful. Amazing she was able to just jump up there and remember the words and all. Such an amazing amount of good will floating there. thanks, Paul Castle - you always send us such good stuff to look at and listen to. Em :) - --- On Mon, 5/16/11, Paul Castle wrote: From: Paul Castle Subject: Rayna with Paul Simon (njc) To: joni@smoe.org Date: Monday, May 16, 2011, 8:16 AM Love this!! (where's my hanky?) The set-up: >During a show in Toronto on May 7, Rayna Ford, a fan from Newfoundland, called out for Simon to play "Duncan," and said something to the effect that she learned to play guitar on the song. In a moment of astonishment and disbelief, Paul Simon invited her on stage, handed her a guitar and asked her to play it for the crowd. http://n.pr/mLNuvR best to all PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 08:24:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Lc Stanley Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs Hi Terra, You wrote about AA: "Any group that touts itself as the ONLY way to quit an addiction..." This is a misrepresentation of AA that instead says in its book Alcoholics Anonymous: "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly. Yet it is our great hope that all those who have as yet found no answer may begin to find one in the pages of this book and will presently join us on the high road to a new freedom." p. xxi "If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us." p. 95 "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little." p. 164 Best wishes, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 11:40:33 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: delusional diseases and drugs I agree with Laura, AA has no opinion on outside issues. Which means it doesn't tout. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Lc Stanley Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 11:25 AM To: T Peckham Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs Hi Terra, You wrote about AA: "Any group that touts itself as the ONLY way to quit an addiction..." This is a misrepresentation of AA that instead says in its book Alcoholics Anonymous: "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly. Yet it is our great hope that all those who have as yet found no answer may begin to find one in the pages of this book and will presently join us on the high road to a new freedom." p. xxi "If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us." p. 95 "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little." p. 164 Best wishes, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:22:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lama \(Jim L*Hommedieu\)" Subject: Breast cancer, njc Over the weekend in Columbus, there was a fund-raiser to fight off breast cancer. Since my sister is a survivor, I always do what I can to help out. It's great to see that the people afflicted have a support network and therefore, don't have to face it alone. Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:29:16 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs On 16 May 2011 16:40, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > I agree with Laura, AA has no opinion on outside issues. Which means it doesn't tout. > I think when people find a tool (any tool, AA or religion or whatever) that truly helps them, they can become passionate, almost evangelical about it. I know when I first found therapy, I thought everyone should have it/try it. Now I am older and wiser, I realise it isn't for everybody. I have met some folk who have been through various programmes who tout them as the Way, the Truth and Light because it's been so great for them personally. Even though the aims and objectives of many organisations (when you read them) talk of personal freedom, the people within them are sometimes quite euphoric about whatever programme has helped them. I think I believed at one time that gestalt therapy was the ONLY thing that could help people with any issue at all and was not the sort of person you'd want to meet at a party! However, I did mean well. Gestalt therapists would have been horrifed by my dogma. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 14:45:05 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: delusional diseases and drugs Right Anita, the organization can't control the touting that goes on by their members. Just look at the US congress! :-) Sue - -----Original Message----- From: Anita G [mailto:lawntreader@googlemail.com] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:29 PM To: Susan Tierney McNamara Cc: Lc Stanley; T Peckham; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs On 16 May 2011 16:40, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > I agree with Laura, AA has no opinion on outside issues. Which means it doesn't tout. > I think when people find a tool (any tool, AA or religion or whatever) that truly helps them, they can become passionate, almost evangelical about it. I know when I first found therapy, I thought everyone should have it/try it. Now I am older and wiser, I realise it isn't for everybody. I have met some folk who have been through various programmes who tout them as the Way, the Truth and Light because it's been so great for them personally. Even though the aims and objectives of many organisations (when you read them) talk of personal freedom, the people within them are sometimes quite euphoric about whatever programme has helped them. I think I believed at one time that gestalt therapy was the ONLY thing that could help people with any issue at all and was not the sort of person you'd want to meet at a party! However, I did mean well. Gestalt therapists would have been horrifed by my dogma. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 11:54:28 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs I still don't understand the comment about the 12-step program being used in the US justice system. - -Corey On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > Right Anita, the organization can't control the touting that goes on by > their members. Just look at the US congress! > > :-) Sue > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anita G [mailto:lawntreader@googlemail.com] > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:29 PM > To: Susan Tierney McNamara > Cc: Lc Stanley; T Peckham; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs > > On 16 May 2011 16:40, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > > I agree with Laura, AA has no opinion on outside issues. Which means it > doesn't tout. > > > I think when people find a tool (any tool, AA or religion or whatever) > that truly helps them, they can become passionate, almost evangelical > about it. I know when I first found therapy, I thought everyone should > have it/try it. Now I am older and wiser, I realise it isn't for > everybody. > > I have met some folk who have been through various programmes who tout > them as the Way, the Truth and Light because it's been so great for > them personally. Even though the aims and objectives of many > organisations (when you read them) talk of personal freedom, the > people within them are sometimes quite euphoric about whatever > programme has helped them. > > I think I believed at one time that gestalt therapy was the ONLY thing > that could help people with any issue at all and was not the sort of > person you'd want to meet at a party! However, I did mean well. > Gestalt therapists would have been horrifed by my dogma. > Anita > - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.CoreyBlake.com - a whole lot of me Do you Dig Comics? http://www.digcomics.com/ Live improv comedy and sketch comedy videos - http://www.magicmeathands.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 12:55:22 -0600 (MDT) From: TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com Subject: New Library item: Judges hand down the law with help from Bob Dylan Title: Judges hand down the law with help from Bob Dylan Publication: Los Angeles Times Date: 2011.5.9 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2373 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:52:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Re: Re: delusional diseases and drugs It's not. That's the problem. "My name is Senator Blah-Blah and I'm a power-hungry pandering philandering pilfering puffed-up PAC-driven egomaniac." See, if they had to say it, maybe that would help LOL! lots of love, Anne On May 16, 2011, Corey Blake wrote: I still don't understand the comment about the 12-step program being used in the US justice system. -Corey On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > Right Anita, the organization can't control the touting that goes on by > their members. Just look at the US congress! > > :-) Sue > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anita G [mailto:lawntreader@googlemail.com] > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:29 PM > To: Susan Tierney McNamara > Cc: Lc Stanley; T Peckham; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs > > On 16 May 2011 16:40, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > > I agree with Laura, AA has no opinion on outside issues. Which means it > doesn't tout. > > > I think when people find a tool (any tool, AA or religion or whatever) > that truly helps them, they can become passionate, almost evangelical > about it. I know when I first found therapy, I thought everyone should > have it/try it. Now I am older and wiser, I realise it isn't for > everybody. > > I have met some folk who have been through various programmes who tout > them as the Way, the Truth and Light because it's been so great for > them personally. Even though the aims and objectives of many > organisations (when you read them) talk of personal freedom, the > people within them are sometimes quite euphoric about whatever > programme has helped them. > > I think I believed at one time that gestalt therapy was the ONLY thing > that could help people with any issue at all and was not the sort of > person you'd want to meet at a party! However, I did mean well. > Gestalt therapists would have been horrifed by my dogma. > Anita > -- --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.CoreyBlake.com - a whole lot of me Do you Dig Comics? http://www.digcomics.com/ Live improv comedy and sketch comedy videos - http://www.magicmeathands.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 15:02:04 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs I guess I should have said "What many AA members tout." But I don't understand the statement that AA "has no opinion on outside issues." Again, sorry if I'm confusing some of the membership for the organization. But am I incorrect in thinking that its members *are* the organization?? And what are considered "outside issues"? Twelve-step programs are in use in local and state govts. in that if, for instance, you are convicted of a DUI (or OWI), judges routinely REQUIRE that you attend AA meetings for a set period of time, in addition to fines and/or jail time. This can be handed down to first-time offenders regardless of age or circumstance (or borderline breathalizer test results). People sentenced to jail or prison for drug-related offenses can also be required to attend AA and/or NA meetings while incarcerated as part of their sentence, and it's often a part of parole as well. An inmate in the state of WI sued the state for this requirement, claiming that it was a violation related to his right not to be compelled to participate in a religious or spiritual practice as part of his sentence. He won. AA counselors are employed by counties to run these programs and meetings, and in small towns, at least,* some* of them abuse their power. I've seen it firsthand with friends, acquaintances, and family, and it's extremely difficult to lodge complaints against them. On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Corey Blake wrote: > I still don't understand the comment about the 12-step program being used > in the US justice system. > > -Corey > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: > >> Right Anita, the organization can't control the touting that goes on by >> their members. Just look at the US congress! >> >> :-) Sue >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anita G [mailto:lawntreader@googlemail.com] >> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:29 PM >> To: Susan Tierney McNamara >> Cc: Lc Stanley; T Peckham; joni@smoe.org >> Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs >> >> On 16 May 2011 16:40, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: >> > I agree with Laura, AA has no opinion on outside issues. Which means it >> doesn't tout. >> > >> I think when people find a tool (any tool, AA or religion or whatever) >> that truly helps them, they can become passionate, almost evangelical >> about it. I know when I first found therapy, I thought everyone should >> have it/try it. Now I am older and wiser, I realise it isn't for >> everybody. >> >> I have met some folk who have been through various programmes who tout >> them as the Way, the Truth and Light because it's been so great for >> them personally. Even though the aims and objectives of many >> organisations (when you read them) talk of personal freedom, the >> people within them are sometimes quite euphoric about whatever >> programme has helped them. >> >> I think I believed at one time that gestalt therapy was the ONLY thing >> that could help people with any issue at all and was not the sort of >> person you'd want to meet at a party! However, I did mean well. >> Gestalt therapists would have been horrifed by my dogma. >> Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 16:01:39 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: delusional diseases and drugs Corey, As an example, In our town, instead of going to jail, a lot of DUI and drug charges are referred to what they call Drug Court, and one of the stipulations of parole is that you are sent to rehab or out-patient drug/alcohol treatment, which includes going to AA or NA meetings. That doesn't mean that AA or NA is affiliated with the US justice system, just that you get brownie points if you go to those programs. If you don't follow through on that request, you may be sent to jail. Sue From: Corey Blake [mailto:coreyblake@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:54 PM To: Susan Tierney McNamara Cc: Anita G; Lc Stanley; T Peckham; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs I still don't understand the comment about the 12-step program being used in the US justice system. - -Corey On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: Right Anita, the organization can't control the touting that goes on by their members. Just look at the US congress! :-) Sue - -----Original Message----- From: Anita G [mailto:lawntreader@googlemail.com] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:29 PM To: Susan Tierney McNamara Cc: Lc Stanley; T Peckham; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs On 16 May 2011 16:40, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: > I agree with Laura, AA has no opinion on outside issues. Which means it doesn't tout. > I think when people find a tool (any tool, AA or religion or whatever) that truly helps them, they can become passionate, almost evangelical about it. I know when I first found therapy, I thought everyone should have it/try it. Now I am older and wiser, I realise it isn't for everybody. I have met some folk who have been through various programmes who tout them as the Way, the Truth and Light because it's been so great for them personally. Even though the aims and objectives of many organisations (when you read them) talk of personal freedom, the people within them are sometimes quite euphoric about whatever programme has helped them. I think I believed at one time that gestalt therapy was the ONLY thing that could help people with any issue at all and was not the sort of person you'd want to meet at a party! However, I did mean well. Gestalt therapists would have been horrifed by my dogma. Anita - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.CoreyBlake.com - a whole lot of me Do you Dig Comics? http://www.digcomics.com/ Live improv comedy and sketch comedy videos - http://www.magicmeathands.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 16:17:55 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: delusional diseases and drugs I think if you are interested in learning what AA is about you should go to their website and look especially at the 12 traditions. This is what the AA organization considers its suggested way of keeping the fellowship anonymous and unaffiliated. http://www.aa.org/results.cfm?results=traditions Sue From: T Peckham [mailto:northern.muse@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 4:02 PM To: Corey Blake Cc: Susan Tierney McNamara; Anita G; Lc Stanley; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs I guess I should have said "What many AA members tout." But I don't understand the statement that AA "has no opinion on outside issues." Again, sorry if I'm confusing some of the membership for the organization. But am I incorrect in thinking that its members are the organization?? And what are considered "outside issues"? Twelve-step programs are in use in local and state govts. in that if, for instance, you are convicted of a DUI (or OWI), judges routinely REQUIRE that you attend AA meetings for a set period of time, in addition to fines and/or jail time. This can be handed down to first-time offenders regardless of age or circumstance (or borderline breathalizer test results). People sentenced to jail or prison for drug-related offenses can also be required to attend AA and/or NA meetings while incarcerated as part of their sentence, and it's often a part of parole as well. An inmate in the state of WI sued the state for this requirement, claiming that it was a violation related to his right not to be compelled to participate in a religious or spiritual practice as part of his sentence. He won. AA counselors are employed by counties to run these programs and meetings, and in small towns, at least, some of them abuse their power. I've seen it firsthand with friends, acquaintances, and family, and it's extremely difficult to lodge complaints against them. On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Corey Blake > wrote: I still don't understand the comment about the 12-step program being used in the US justice system. - -Corey On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: Right Anita, the organization can't control the touting that goes on by their members. Just look at the US congress! :-) Sue - -----Original Message----- From: Anita G [mailto:lawntreader@googlemail.com] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:29 PM To: Susan Tierney McNamara Cc: Lc Stanley; T Peckham; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs On 16 May 2011 16:40, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: > I agree with Laura, AA has no opinion on outside issues. Which means it doesn't tout. > I think when people find a tool (any tool, AA or religion or whatever) that truly helps them, they can become passionate, almost evangelical about it. I know when I first found therapy, I thought everyone should have it/try it. Now I am older and wiser, I realise it isn't for everybody. I have met some folk who have been through various programmes who tout them as the Way, the Truth and Light because it's been so great for them personally. Even though the aims and objectives of many organisations (when you read them) talk of personal freedom, the people within them are sometimes quite euphoric about whatever programme has helped them. I think I believed at one time that gestalt therapy was the ONLY thing that could help people with any issue at all and was not the sort of person you'd want to meet at a party! However, I did mean well. Gestalt therapists would have been horrifed by my dogma. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 15:34:58 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs As for me, thanks, Sue, but you probably realize my questions were rhetorical--I'm familiar with the traditions. Clearly, my experiences with many of my friends (from NYC and LA, in addition to WI, Iowa, and Illinois) have left me with much more negative than positive feelings about the organization. But for those it *has* helped, it's great. I'm happy to agree to disagree about this one. :-) Terra On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > I think if you are interested in learning what AA is about you should go to > their website and look especially at the 12 traditions. This is what the > AA > organization considers its suggested way of keeping the fellowship > anonymous > and unaffiliated. > > http://www.aa.org/results.cfm?results=traditions > > Sue ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 16:36:11 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: delusional diseases and drugs Sure, that's fine with me. It's all good!! :) From: T Peckham [mailto:northern.muse@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 4:35 PM To: Susan Tierney McNamara Cc: Corey Blake; Anita G; Lc Stanley; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: delusional diseases and drugs As for me, thanks, Sue, but you probably realize my questions were rhetorical--I'm familiar with the traditions. Clearly, my experiences with many of my friends (from NYC and LA, in addition to WI, Iowa, and Illinois) have left me with much more negative than positive feelings about the organization. But for those it has helped, it's great. I'm happy to agree to disagree about this one. :-) Terra On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: I think if you are interested in learning what AA is about you should go to their website and look especially at the 12 traditions. This is what the AA organization considers its suggested way of keeping the fellowship anonymous and unaffiliated. http://www.aa.org/results.cfm?results=traditions Sue ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #144 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------