From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #101 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jmdl.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 5 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 101 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 [Lieve Reckers ] Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 ["Laurent Olszer" ] RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 NJC [Mags ] Re: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 now Margaret Atwood, consumerism and dystopian worldviews NJC [] Re: AI and Naima NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC American Idol Updates NJC and oh yeah NJC ["Randy Remote" ] Re: Re: NJC American Idol Updates NJC and oh yeah NJC [Anne Sandstrom ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:23:42 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Hi Laurent, since you wrote, at least in part, in reply to my post, I feel I need to give some response. But I promise I am going to keep it short and not really get into the meat of the debate proper, because I think it is way too vast and general and I have no time or inclination to go into that. That was the essence of my first message: there may be some kernels of truth in Joni's comments (and that is what you seem to be referring to) but they are just flickers of light, aspects of a much bigger and much more varied and complex picture, which also contains opposite truths, so to state thise flickers as THE truth is just grotesque. Joni may like to shock and surprise people with her "unique take on things" but to me this is lazy and indulgent commenting. No, women are not all aggressive and men are not generally weak. In the past, men all had to be strong and women all had to be weak. Now, thank goodness, there is variety. We can be as we really are regardless of gender. And if that shocks some people (as it seems to shock Joni) then sorry but I think they are stuck with outdated thought patterns. As to great politicians, well Churchill was a war leader. He was good at that, but it does not make him in my mind an amazing overall statesman. And whatever one thinks of Churchill, I would not think we can never have decent leaders and states(wo)men again. I just hope we don't end up under occupation or in an immediate state of direct war again, just to allow people to start waxing lyrical about their great leaders again! I promised to keep it short and I will. Anyway, nice to hear from you, Laurent! All the best, Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Laurent Olszer To: joni@smoe.org Sent: Sun, 3 April, 2011 23:44:45 Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 This is too interesting to let it go quietly. Basically I could defend both sides of the story. But since Lieve seems to have reflected the consensus I choose to play the devil's advocate and defend some of Joni's statements as I am not afraid of "swiping generalizations" "America is as perverse as pre WWII Germany": not sure about that. Besides Joni refers to this situation being caused by a long peace. But... there is no peace for the USA except on its very soil. I interpret Joni's statement being about decadence and in that respect she's probably right. Joni states that leadership is grotesque and the masses are ignorant of atrocities being committed. I agree that for the U.S. and also for France that leadership is grotesque. All political considerations aside, when one compares our presidents to statesmen like Winston Churchill or Roosevelt, can one really say that nowadays overall the presidents are true leaders with a vision, and that they are/were the best men to lead the country? I am not picking on any individual, to me they are all either puppets or puppeteers. If you disagree, please name some great statesmen/women of the last 30 years. I disagree with Joni that the people are/were ignorant of atrocities, in both the U.S. and Germany. Regarding American men & women, after spending 10 years in the U.S. (L.A.) I've come to the conclusion that it's a matriarchal society. Comparing with Frenchmen, there is no question that American men are weak and dominated by women. The way I see it, American men are sweet and gentle but those traits are interpreted as weakness by too many women. Of course American women are very aggressive. As a man I found them totally unfeminine as a result. And I was not at all surprised at the amount of gay men perhaps as a reaction? I mean I would become gay too if I lived in the U.S., LOL Now I haven't spent a lot of time outside California so I cannot say whether these traits are all over the country or not. I am speaking of what I have experienced personally. Sorry guys again these are generalizations, I am sure there are many exceptions. In the context of the interview, Joni is not talking about a battle of the sexes. Her point is that food & water shortages lie ahead and that the current generation is not prepared to those future troubles because they're shallow and frivolous. I could not agree more with this, not that there is any real preparation for troubles. But the equation could look something like this: shallow & materialistic/instant gratification/look out for Number One generation > greed & financial profit >global economic collapse > war ?> food & water shortages or alternatively: natural disaster > food & water shortages >civil war 5 months ago we had a strike in France because nobody wanted to ok the government's reform on retirement, though a necessary one. Strikers decided to paralyze the entire country and prevented trucks from leaving refineries. Many gas stations ran out. Lines ran for hours at those stations that had gas...and fights broke out. People were filling up jerrycans and stocking up on food as supermarkets didn't receive new supplies. The military was quickly ordered to break the strike blocks so fuel could reach the stations. Now what do you think will happen when real shit happens? I am sure that some of you are raising huge eyebrows at some of my comments, but hey this is an open forum and I like to kick start the discussions.. Laurent Lieve wrote: I may of course be wrong, but my guess is that you are not getting many reactions, because it is difficult to react to these statements. With the best will in the world, I cannot agree with these swiping generalisations, and it just seems easier to keep quiet rather than start criticising them, or to make a big effort to find some kernel of truth in them. Sue wrote: I just watched this on YouTube and I'm curious if this interview has been discussed at all here. I was fascinated by her comparison of America to pre-WWII Germany - and the description of men as weak and women as grotesquely aggressive. What do you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3g-Wv-p_ug&feature=fvwrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:42:09 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: when she thought she had some choice What a great post, Oddmund. I must disagree that CIFTC is not one of Joni's best writings. It is as complex and thought provoking as any of Joni's songs. Have we not all made value judgements in a self important voice and sometimes regretted our own arrogance later? It is a great gift to be able to step back and appreciate the important things in life. To be creative and to take control of one's own life. Yes, life can be absurd but, there are lessons to be learned. I admire your creativity, Oddmund. It is a gift. Live it. Seems to me, you've come in from the cold. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 02:57:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: when she thought she had some choice I have to admit that I've always found this song so dull from a musical perspective that the words never resonated with me. Having said that, I owe it to the song to give the lyrics a closer look. Bob NP: World Cafe w/David Dye - ----- Original Message ---- From: Mark-Leon Thorne To: okaarevik@gmail.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 5:42:09 PM Subject: Re: when she thought she had some choice What a great post, Oddmund. I must disagree that CIFTC is not one of Joni's best writings. It is as complex and thought provoking as any of Joni's songs. Have we not all made value judgements in a self important voice and sometimes regretted our own arrogance later? It is a great gift to be able to step back and appreciate the important things in life. To be creative and to take control of one's own life. Yes, life can be absurd but, there are lessons to be learned. I admire your creativity, Oddmund. It is a gift. Live it. Seems to me, you've come in from the cold. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 11:44:43 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Thanks Lieve and Laurent for responding. Lieve, it doesn't bother me if no one replies to my posts, this was a Friday find that intrigued me. Laurent, I appreciate your response! Lots to chew on there. My reaction to Joni's sound bytes were, "here is Our Lady of Duality at it again." Bringing out the opposites, using bold colors to describe grey areas. What is more aggressive than that? That's why her comment about weak men and aggressive women really hit me as ingenuous. I agree with Lieve that it's more nuanced than that. Laurent, gender issues have come a long way in America but I would definitely hestitate calling it a matriarchal society. Families may be more matriarchal because of the rise of single motherhood among the poor but the middle class and upper crust are still very patriarchal. But I don't discount your experience. You may have had a better perspective coming from outside the US and witnessing the LA area (which I'm sure is a lot different from rural upstate NY!). My interest in her comment about America compared to pre-WWII Germany came on the heels of me seeing Margaret Atwood last week at Cornell. An audience member asked her what her perfect world would look like and she replied "Imperfect. Perfection usually leads to the imperfect in mass graves." I don't see America at this point yet although I don't think anyone should ever have the attitude of "it can't happen here." Atwood was great, and hysterically funny. Another great Canadian. Well back to work, thanks for chiming in. Take care, Sue ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue Tierney || || McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Olszer Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 6:45 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 This is too interesting to let it go quietly. Basically I could defend both sides of the story. But since Lieve seems to have reflected the consensus I choose to play the devil's advocate and defend some of Joni's statements as I am not afraid of "swiping generalizations" "America is as perverse as pre WWII Germany": not sure about that. Besides Joni refers to this situation being caused by a long peace. But... there is no peace for the USA except on its very soil. I interpret Joni's statement being about decadence and in that respect she's probably right. Joni states that leadership is grotesque and the masses are ignorant of atrocities being committed. I agree that for the U.S. and also for France that leadership is grotesque. All political considerations aside, when one compares our presidents to statesmen like Winston Churchill or Roosevelt, can one really say that nowadays overall the presidents are true leaders with a vision, and that they are/were the best men to lead the country? I am not picking on any individual, to me they are all either puppets or puppeteers. If you disagree, please name some great statesmen/women of the last 30 years. I disagree with Joni that the people are/were ignorant of atrocities, in both the U.S. and Germany. Regarding American men & women, after spending 10 years in the U.S. (L.A.) I've come to the conclusion that it's a matriarchal society. Comparing with Frenchmen, there is no question that American men are weak and dominated by women. The way I see it, American men are sweet and gentle but those traits are interpreted as weakness by too many women. Of course American women are very aggressive. As a man I found them totally unfeminine as a result. And I was not at all surprised at the amount of gay men perhaps as a reaction? I mean I would become gay too if I lived in the U.S., LOL Now I haven't spent a lot of time outside California so I cannot say whether these traits are all over the country or not. I am speaking of what I have experienced personally. Sorry guys again these are generalizations, I am sure there are many exceptions. In the context of the interview, Joni is not talking about a battle of the sexes. Her point is that food & water shortages lie ahead and that the current generation is not prepared to those future troubles because they're shallow and frivolous. I could not agree more with this, not that there is any real preparation for troubles. But the equation could look something like this: shallow & materialistic/instant gratification/look out for Number One generation > greed & financial profit >global economic collapse > war ?> food & water shortages or alternatively: natural disaster > food & water shortages >civil war 5 months ago we had a strike in France because nobody wanted to ok the government's reform on retirement, though a necessary one. Strikers decided to paralyze the entire country and prevented trucks from leaving refineries. Many gas stations ran out. Lines ran for hours at those stations that had gas...and fights broke out. People were filling up jerrycans and stocking up on food as supermarkets didn't receive new supplies. The military was quickly ordered to break the strike blocks so fuel could reach the stations. Now what do you think will happen when real shit happens? I am sure that some of you are raising huge eyebrows at some of my comments, but hey this is an open forum and I like to kick start the discussions.. Laurent Lieve wrote: I may of course be wrong, but my guess is that you are not getting many reactions, because it is difficult to react to these statements. With the best will in the world, I cannot agree with these swiping generalisations, and it just seems easier to keep quiet rather than start criticising them, or to make a big effort to find some kernel of truth in them. Sue wrote: I just watched this on YouTube and I'm curious if this interview has been discussed at all here. I was fascinated by her comparison of America to pre-WWII Germany - and the description of men as weak and women as grotesquely aggressive. What do you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3g-Wv-p_ug&feature=fvwrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 09:44:50 -0600 From: Robert Procyk Subject: AI and Naima NJC Yay, Bob can still comment on AI! I started to write a mock Bob post reviewing AI but with official government slogans replacing parts of Bob's commentary, but it got to be too much work. It would have been funny, though... Anyway, I am completely FLABBERGASTED that you guys liked Naima! I was cringing throughout. At the rehearsal, I thought it might work, but when she came out and was completely overdoing the accent? Oy. My wife immediately yelled out "Ok, Madonna..." (because we still get a kick out of Madonna's fake British accent after all of these years). Anyway, the whole Jamaican accent was waaay over the top. It was like watching a bad white rapper, you know what I mean? Or listening to Madonna be British. If she would have toned it down, it might have worked, but holy moly, I might have even liked Paul better. You know, other than the country dude and Haley, I didn't care for much this week. Those judges need to get cranky. I didn't get to see the results show (we went to see Jackson Browne, which I should review for you Jackson folk), but my daughter couldn't wait to wake me up the next morning to tell me who went home, because even she thought the whole accent was riddiculous. Anyway, just my thoughts. Keep the reviews coming, Beijing Bob! Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:17:36 +0200 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Yes Sue you're right i am sure the gender roles are different depending on class. But what you see from the outside may not be what's really happening inside the home. In fact my favorite comic, Jackie Mason, mentions in his act top ranking executives to whom everybody says "yes boss" all day long and as soon as they walk home their jewish wife says "you schmuck! bla bla bla". I can tell you this caricature is accurate. Regardless of this issue, do you have any comment on the bleak outlook described by Joni? I mean how do see americans or europeans reacting when the real troubles come around? That's what i really want to know. I don't see America looking for perfection. Not even sure one can assimilate this racial purity crap in pre WWII Germany with a search for perfection. I mean it was a clever way for Hitler to manipulate the masses to carry out his mad obsessions. A perfectly imperfect Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 09:50:40 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Another pathetic attempt (njc) There I was in Islands last night, that bastion of suburban mediocrity, when a lady came in who I had to stare at. Her profile was exactly Joni's. I mean the curl of the lower lip, the cheekbones. I watched her talk, and mannerisms the same. I kept saying to my husband, "Do you think that could be her?" Sure, he said, she just left Costco across the parking lot. I said, "Costco? Why would she go to Costco? Maybe for cases of cigarettes?" We had a laugh, but in the end, being the kind of ridiculous person I am, I had to get up and make an innocent pass by. From the front view she didn't look at all like Joni. But still from the side, I would have bet money that our Joan was in my neighborhood enjoying a burger and fries! I thought I'd share this with you because I know every one of you would have done the same thing ... ; ) And I know how many of you have met her personally (I haven't) and I thought, what a coup that would be, to get my own personal audience with her in an Islands!! haha Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 09:58:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 NJC sue wrote: " Atwood was great, and > hysterically funny. Another great Canadian. Just had to chime in here with a great big yes she is, in support of your comment about Atwood being a very, very funny woman. And oh can she hold court, whether it's a thousand or just one (that would be me, I did have to great fortune to share a good half an hour of discussion with Margaret as she visited my bookstore prior to flying back to the Big Smoke. The thing about Atwood's humour is such that she is so very DRY that one might not get it. I love watching her read her work, and especially when she comes to a particularly funny bit (not always obvious)..she does this great side glance thing and with a little twinkle in her eye, and a bit of a smile...there she goes. ATwood was clearly one of my first mentors as a writer and I have long admired her work, and all the ways in which she tries to effect change and bring attention to the wealth of Canadian writers. > Now, I did mark this NJC, however, I'd like to give Margaret a little Joni nod/connection notation here...when Joni was signed on in Toronto with her very own sidewalk star , Margaret received hers that same said day. I know that Stephen Epstein was there for that special moment . Methinks there weren't too many watching so it would have been a great opportunity to see these wonderful ladies of very different canyons. Or is that canon ;--) anyway, great big Atwood fan here has said her piece :P love, Mags > > Take care, Sue > > > ___________________ > /___________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue Tierney || > || McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu > || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] > On Behalf Of Laurent Olszer > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 6:45 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 > > > This is too interesting to let it go quietly. > Basically I could defend both > sides of the story. But since Lieve seems to have > reflected the consensus I > choose to play the devil's advocate and defend some of > Joni's statements as > I am not afraid of "swiping generalizations" > "America is as perverse as pre WWII Germany": not sure > about that. Besides > Joni refers to this situation being caused by a long > peace. But... there is > no peace for the USA except on its very soil. I > interpret Joni's statement > being about decadence and in that respect she's probably > right. > > Joni states that leadership is grotesque and the masses are > ignorant of > atrocities being committed. I agree that for the U.S. and > also for France > that leadership is grotesque. All political > considerations aside, when one > compares our presidents to statesmen like Winston Churchill > or Roosevelt, > can one really say that nowadays overall the presidents are > true leaders > with a vision, and that they are/were the best men to lead > the country? I > am not picking on any individual, to me they are all either > puppets or > puppeteers. If you disagree, please name some great > statesmen/women of the > last 30 years. > I disagree with Joni that the people are/were ignorant of > atrocities, in > both the U.S. and Germany. > > Regarding American men & women, after spending 10 > years in the U.S. (L.A.) > I've come to the conclusion that it's a matriarchal > society. Comparing with > Frenchmen, there is no question that American men are weak > and dominated by > women. The way I see it, American men are sweet and > gentle but those traits > are interpreted as weakness by too many women. > Of course American women are very aggressive. As a man I > found them totally > unfeminine as a result. And I was not at all > surprised at the amount of gay > men perhaps as a reaction? I mean I would become gay > too if I lived in the > U.S., LOL > > Now I haven't spent a lot of time outside California so I > cannot say whether > these traits are all over the country or not. I am speaking > of what I have > experienced personally. Sorry guys again these are > generalizations, I am > sure there are many exceptions. > > In the context of the interview, Joni is not talking > about a battle of the > sexes. Her point is that food & water shortages > lie ahead and that the > current generation is not prepared to those future troubles > because they're > shallow and frivolous. I could not agree more with > this, not that there is > any real preparation for troubles. > But the equation could look something like this: > shallow & materialistic/instant gratification/look out > for Number One > generation > greed & financial profit >global > economic collapse > war ?> > food & water shortages > or alternatively: > natural disaster > food & water shortages >civil > war > > 5 months ago we had a strike in France because nobody > wanted to ok the > government's reform on retirement, though a necessary one. > Strikers decided to paralyze the entire country and > prevented trucks from > leaving refineries. > Many gas stations ran out. Lines ran for hours at > those stations that had > gas...and fights broke out. People were filling up > jerrycans and stocking > up on food as supermarkets didn't receive new supplies. > The military was quickly ordered to break the strike blocks > so fuel could > reach the stations. > Now what do you think will happen when real shit happens? > > I am sure that some of you are raising huge eyebrows at > some of my comments, > but hey this is an open forum and I like to kick > start the discussions.. > > Laurent > > > Lieve wrote: > I may of course be wrong, but my guess is that you are not > getting many > reactions, because it is difficult to react to these > statements. With the > best will in the world, I cannot agree with these swiping > generalisations, > and it just seems easier to keep quiet rather than start > criticising them, > or to make a big effort to find some kernel of truth in > them. > > Sue wrote: > I just watched this on YouTube and I'm curious if this > interview has been > discussed at all here. I was fascinated by her > comparison of America to > pre-WWII Germany - and the description of men as weak and > women as > grotesquely aggressive. What do you think? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3g-Wv-p_ug&feature=fvwrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:04:30 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 NJC Hey Mags, she was great. She read this really funny prose poem about her cat going to heaven (the first thing he asked the cat God was "where are my testicles?") hahaha! Plus she read from her new novel which has a theme of futuristic eco world that has a religious holiday called "Mole Day" at this point she sang a hymn! Very cool. Loved her. Sue - -----Original Message----- From: Mags [mailto:margaret_elmtree@yahoo.ca] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 12:58 PM To: joni@smoe.org; Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 NJC sue wrote: " Atwood was great, and > hysterically funny. Another great Canadian. Just had to chime in here with a great big yes she is, in support of your comment about Atwood being a very, very funny woman. And oh can she hold court, whether it's a thousand or just one (that would be me, I did have to great fortune to share a good half an hour of discussion with Margaret as she visited my bookstore prior to flying back to the Big Smoke. The thing about Atwood's humour is such that she is so very DRY that one might not get it. I love watching her read her work, and especially when she comes to a particularly funny bit (not always obvious)..she does this great side glance thing and with a little twinkle in her eye, and a bit of a smile...there she goes. ATwood was clearly one of my first mentors as a writer and I have long admired her work, and all the ways in which she tries to effect change and bring attention to the wealth of Canadian writers. > Now, I did mark this NJC, however, I'd like to give Margaret a little Joni nod/connection notation here...when Joni was signed on in Toronto with her very own sidewalk star , Margaret received hers that same said day. I know that Stephen Epstein was there for that special moment . Methinks there weren't too many watching so it would have been a great opportunity to see these wonderful ladies of very different canyons. Or is that canon ;--) anyway, great big Atwood fan here has said her piece :P love, Mags > > Take care, Sue > > > ___________________ > /___________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue Tierney || > || McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu > || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] > On Behalf Of Laurent Olszer > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 6:45 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 > > > This is too interesting to let it go quietly. > Basically I could defend both > sides of the story. But since Lieve seems to have > reflected the consensus I > choose to play the devil's advocate and defend some of > Joni's statements as > I am not afraid of "swiping generalizations" > "America is as perverse as pre WWII Germany": not sure > about that. Besides > Joni refers to this situation being caused by a long > peace. But... there is > no peace for the USA except on its very soil. I > interpret Joni's statement > being about decadence and in that respect she's probably > right. > > Joni states that leadership is grotesque and the masses are > ignorant of > atrocities being committed. I agree that for the U.S. and > also for France > that leadership is grotesque. All political > considerations aside, when one > compares our presidents to statesmen like Winston Churchill > or Roosevelt, > can one really say that nowadays overall the presidents are > true leaders > with a vision, and that they are/were the best men to lead > the country? I > am not picking on any individual, to me they are all either > puppets or > puppeteers. If you disagree, please name some great > statesmen/women of the > last 30 years. > I disagree with Joni that the people are/were ignorant of > atrocities, in > both the U.S. and Germany. > > Regarding American men & women, after spending 10 > years in the U.S. (L.A.) > I've come to the conclusion that it's a matriarchal > society. Comparing with > Frenchmen, there is no question that American men are weak > and dominated by > women. The way I see it, American men are sweet and > gentle but those traits > are interpreted as weakness by too many women. > Of course American women are very aggressive. As a man I > found them totally > unfeminine as a result. And I was not at all > surprised at the amount of gay > men perhaps as a reaction? I mean I would become gay > too if I lived in the > U.S., LOL > > Now I haven't spent a lot of time outside California so I > cannot say whether > these traits are all over the country or not. I am speaking > of what I have > experienced personally. Sorry guys again these are > generalizations, I am > sure there are many exceptions. > > In the context of the interview, Joni is not talking > about a battle of the > sexes. Her point is that food & water shortages > lie ahead and that the > current generation is not prepared to those future troubles > because they're > shallow and frivolous. I could not agree more with > this, not that there is > any real preparation for troubles. > But the equation could look something like this: > shallow & materialistic/instant gratification/look out > for Number One > generation > greed & financial profit >global > economic collapse > war ?> > food & water shortages > or alternatively: > natural disaster > food & water shortages >civil > war > > 5 months ago we had a strike in France because nobody > wanted to ok the > government's reform on retirement, though a necessary one. > Strikers decided to paralyze the entire country and > prevented trucks from > leaving refineries. > Many gas stations ran out. Lines ran for hours at > those stations that had > gas...and fights broke out. People were filling up > jerrycans and stocking > up on food as supermarkets didn't receive new supplies. > The military was quickly ordered to break the strike blocks > so fuel could > reach the stations. > Now what do you think will happen when real shit happens? > > I am sure that some of you are raising huge eyebrows at > some of my comments, > but hey this is an open forum and I like to kick > start the discussions.. > > Laurent > > > Lieve wrote: > I may of course be wrong, but my guess is that you are not > getting many > reactions, because it is difficult to react to these > statements. With the > best will in the world, I cannot agree with these swiping > generalisations, > and it just seems easier to keep quiet rather than start > criticising them, > or to make a big effort to find some kernel of truth in > them. > > Sue wrote: > I just watched this on YouTube and I'm curious if this > interview has been > discussed at all here. I was fascinated by her > comparison of America to > pre-WWII Germany - and the description of men as weak and > women as > grotesquely aggressive. What do you think? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3g-Wv-p_ug&feature=fvwrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:28:10 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Well as someone who recently had my own "great recession" (I was in credit counseling for four years paying off thousands of dollars of credit card debt) I can say from my own experience that Americans are probably not ready to have the credit faucet turned off. Between 140 people in my department laid off last year and having to take a second job as a cashier in the local grocery store for six months to keep up with my daughter's student loans, I know now that instant gratification is a luxury I cannot afford. My daughter made this comment the other day that "everybody is old" meaning there are a lot of us "baby boomers" hanging around and as much as I would like to see everyone get what they need, it's going to be very hard for Americans to realize that getting what they need means they may not get what they want. Having said that, I finally broke down and ordered DSL internet for my home today. That's a huge luxury that I am going to enjoy thoroughly!! (have I learned my lesson? Probably not). :-) But look at Japan ... wow what a horrible tragedy. We cannot control anything ... Jackie Mason, HAHAHA! I love those old comics!! I miss Rodney Dangerfield!! :-) Take care, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: Laurent Olszer [mailto:olszer@xlsecurity.com] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 12:18 PM To: Susan Tierney McNamara; joni@smoe.org Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Yes Sue you're right i am sure the gender roles are different depending on class. But what you see from the outside may not be what's really happening inside the home. In fact my favorite comic, Jackie Mason, mentions in his act top ranking executives to whom everybody says "yes boss" all day long and as soon as they walk home their jewish wife says "you schmuck! bla bla bla". I can tell you this caricature is accurate. Regardless of this issue, do you have any comment on the bleak outlook described by Joni? I mean how do see americans or europeans reacting when the real troubles come around? That's what i really want to know. I don't see America looking for perfection. Not even sure one can assimilate this racial purity crap in pre WWII Germany with a search for perfection. I mean it was a clever way for Hitler to manipulate the masses to carry out his mad obsessions. A perfectly imperfect Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:42:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 NJC oh she is brill, really. admittedly, Ive not read everything she has written however, I have enjoyed very much, what I have. I asked Margaret about the new work she was reading at the time, the Penelopiad..and I said it reminded me somewhat of Handmaid's Tale, which she said I was spot on. Gawd I was so nervous talking to her...she's incredibly witty and articulate and I fumbled along nicely. She had taken time out of her busy schedule to make time for a stop in the bookstore. She signed every single copy of her works while there too. Very warm welcome. Mags. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:42:36 -0700 From: "ron g" Subject: Re: AI and Naima NJC rob wrote > Anyway, I am completely FLABBERGASTED that you guys liked Naima! I was > cringing throughout. At the rehearsal, I thought it might work, but when > she came out and was completely overdoing the accent? Oy. My wife > immediately yelled out "Ok, Madonna..." (because we still get a kick out > of Madonna's fake British accent after all of these years). Anyway, the > whole Jamaican accent was waaay over the top. It was like watching a bad > white rapper, you know what I mean? Or listening to Madonna be British. > If she would have toned it down, it might have worked, but holy moly, I > might have even liked Paul better. You know, other than the country dude > and Haley, I didn't care for much this week. Those judges need to get > cranky. while i quite liked naima in general, i must admit that her "african" dancing a while back had me cringing as well.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 11:48:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 now Margaret Atwood, consumerism and dystopian worldviews NJC - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Susan Tierney McNamara > To: Mags ; "joni@smoe.org" > Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 1:04:30 PM > Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 NJC > > Hey Mags, she was great. She read this really funny prose poem about her cat >going to heaven (the first thing he asked the cat God was "where are my >testicles?") hahaha! Plus she read from her new novel which has a theme of >futuristic eco world that has a religious holiday called "Mole Day" at this >point she sang a hymn! Very cool. Loved her. Sue > That would be "The Year of the Flood," which is a sister novel that goes along with "Oryx and Crake". Not a sequel, not a prequel, sort of a simultanequel (I think that's what MA called it - it happens at approximately the same time as O&C and features some of the same characters.) Another story of a bleak not-too-distant future where global warming and corporate greed and mass consumption have fecked up the world in such a way that it's kind of like a Mad Max movie and everyone is pretty much on his or her own, trying to fend off wandering gangs and mutant animals along with shortages of food and everything else. This particular book centres on a group of people who belong to a sort of religious cult that has incorporated the ecology into its theology and does include a bunch of hymns that were set to music. You can buy the CD in fact through the website (http://www.yearoftheflood.com/us/music/) Like Mags, I'm a big Atwood fan and became more of one when I heard her speak at a "Word on the Street" event a few years ago when i realized just how funny she really is - but very dry, as Mags has said, and many people probably just wouldn't get it. I do think a lot of Joni fans would get it though. Loved the line about the cat - that is very Atwood! I didn't see the Green Room thing so am not going to comment and am not in the mood to hear Joni generalizing, even though we know she does that. As far as matriarchies/patriarchies and what is feminine and whether or not american women are or aren't, everyone's different and, if I ever thought that women should be a certain way and men another, I no longer think so. We are who are are and I'm grateful for that. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:41:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: AI and Naima NJC I definitely can't disagree with you about the fake Jamaican accent, mon! Completely unnecessary and probably insulting to Jamaicans for that matter (unless Naima actually is a Jamaican whose accent only kicked in for the reggae stuff. I do have a friend who's Jamaican and, most of the time, she speaks English with a very slight accent that you might not even recognize as Jamaican but, when she gets together with her cousin, the two of them launch into this patois you could cut with a knife.) I was kind of a Naima fan in the beginning because she's kinda different-looking, but she messed it up too many times and I wasn't surprised or disappointed to see her voted off. for that matter, it seems that even the ones who look a bit different or who sound different seem to be doing that just to get noticed and THAT's getting kind of tired too. I am tired of the screamers and the ones who ascend into a range so high (and correspondingly annoying) that only dogs and maybe bats can hear it. I suppose, when it comes right down to it, I probably wouldn't be disappointed to see any of them voted off. Despite the judges' comments that these are the best ever, for most of them my response is a great big, "Meh!" I used to think Simon was mean and sometimes he was, but he was honest and most of the time I agreed with him. These judges aren't really coaches. They have vocal coaches for that, so the judges need to be more critical and sometimes that can include being kinda mean. Instead they seem to just agree with one another all of the time, although Randy does still occasionally come out with his famous, "Yo. Yo. It started off a little pitchy, dawg, and, you know, for me, for you, I'm just saying that maybe for me, for you, you could be thinking about switching it up a little, is all I'm saying but you know, dawg, I'm still a fan of yours." - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Robert Procyk > To: joni@smoe.org > Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 11:44:50 AM > Subject: AI and Naima NJC > > Yay, Bob can still comment on AI! I started to write a mock Bob post > reviewing AI but with official government slogans replacing parts of > Bob's commentary, but it got to be too much work. It would have been > funny, though... > > Anyway, I am completely FLABBERGASTED that you guys liked Naima! I was > cringing throughout. At the rehearsal, I thought it might work, but when > she came out and was completely overdoing the accent? Oy. My wife > immediately yelled out "Ok, Madonna..." (because we still get a kick out > of Madonna's fake British accent after all of these years). Anyway, the > whole Jamaican accent was waaay over the top. It was like watching a bad > white rapper, you know what I mean? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:32:27 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: NJC American Idol Updates NJC and oh yeah NJC From: "Bob Muller" > > > Yours were very good, Randy - probably not in alignment with Coke > corporate > objectives, but good luck. > > Maybe we could submit Joni's coke commercial (called Ballerina Valerie) > recorded > on a couple of bootlegs. Nothing like dashing a guy's hopes! Ballerina Valerie? I never heard of that. RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 16:56:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC American Idol Updates NJC and oh yeah NJC I like Randy's song ideas. Randy Remote never lies! - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Randy Remote > To: Bob Muller ; joni@smoe.org > Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 1:32:27 PM > Subject: Re: NJC American Idol Updates NJC and oh yeah NJC > > From: "Bob Muller" > > > > > > Yours were very good, Randy - probably not in alignment with Coke corporate > > objectives, but good luck. > > > > Maybe we could submit Joni's coke commercial (called Ballerina Valerie) >recorded > > on a couple of bootlegs. > > Nothing like dashing a guy's hopes! Ballerina Valerie? I never heard > of that. > RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 17:12:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: NJC American Idol Updates NJC and oh yeah NJC It's pretty funny. I would roll it up into a yousend it, but since my audio collection is on the opposite side of the world I'm kind of stuck. Maybe another able-bodied JMDL'er can cover it. Speaking of China, here it's Tuesday and QING MING holiday, which is "Tomb Sweeping" Day. All Chinese are given the day off work to tend to their family graves, leave flowers, gifts, pray, etc. Since I'm managing a crew of Chinese ladies, should be a fairly quiet day for me. Bob NP: Interpol, "Untitled" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 17:24:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: AI and Naima NJC Sorry that I missed your Bob parody, Rob - would have been a classic I'm sure. And hey, feel free to do it anytime. As for Naima, I guess the reason I liked it so much was that everyone else was soooooo predictable. Even before I saw the videos I could have made some pretty good guesses as to who would do what. James does a rocker, Scotty croons a country song, Pia & Thia do ballads, Jacob sobs and shrieks his way thru something dramatic, and Paul ruins whatever he does. No one besides Casey and Naima stepped out of their comfort zones, and with Casey he just did 'Your Song' pretty straight up. Naima at least reinvented her song, and given her eccentric family (and there has been some video of her parents playing jazz & reggae) I felt it was pretty sincere so she got points for that. Plus, she seemed to actually HIT the notes. Bob NP: Grand Funk, "Some Kind of Wonderful" (having fun cruising the internet for radio stations, this is a classic rock station from Detroit) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 00:27:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Re: Re: NJC American Idol Updates NJC and oh yeah NJC OK, my brain momentarily scrambled some of your message and I thought you said you were "tending a crew of Chinese ladies." Then again... your reputation precedes you. :-) So, tomb day sounds like Memorial Day without the picnics. lots of love, Anne On Apr 4, 2011, Bob Muller wrote: It's pretty funny. I would roll it up into a yousend it, but since my audio collection is on the opposite side of the world I'm kind of stuck. Maybe another able-bodied JMDL'er can cover it. Speaking of China, here it's Tuesday and QING MING holiday, which is "Tomb Sweeping" Day. All Chinese are given the day off work to tend to their family graves, leave flowers, gifts, pray, etc. Since I'm managing a crew of Chinese ladies, should be a fairly quiet day for me. Bob NP: Interpol, "Untitled" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 17:34:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Re: NJC American Idol Updates NJC and oh yeah NJC Well, what I do here in the office and what I do in the hotel are 2 different things. Ha! You would laugh to hear how boring my day is. It was funny, yesterday walking back to the hotel (around the corner and about 5 minutes away from the office bldg). This Chinese guy flags me down and gives me a stack of cards with pictures of Asian women in various outfits (nurse, schoolgirl, lingerie, etc) with phone numbers to call for massages and, um, conversation. I'm thinking "Geez, do I REALLY look that lonely?" :-D Exactly - I'm thinking that most folks just enjoy the day off in their own way. I do have one employee whose Mom passed away a few months ago so she was also off Monday to travel and be with her family to honor the day. Bob NP: Bachman-Turner Overdrive, "Let It Ride" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 20:00:05 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: My Old Man Pianists, I have done a new piano transcription of My Old Man and added it to the transcription database. It's piano only; no vocal staff. Hope you like it... Dave ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #101 ***************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------