From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #90 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jmdl.com JMDL Digest Friday, March 25 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 090 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC [Lieve Reckers ] Re: Grammar Question [Catherine McKay ] election, njc [Marianne Rizzo ] Re: Grammar Question [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Grammar Question [Gerald Notaro ] Re: election, njc [Gerald Notaro ] RE: election, njc [Susan Tierney McNamara ] Re: election, njc [Em ] Re: election, njc [LC Stanley ] Re: Grammar Question [Catherine McKay ] Most recent photo of Joni? [Susan Tierney McNamara ] Elizabeth Taylor njc ["Mark" ] Yes DVD: "Live at the Montreaux", njc [Jim ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:49:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC Same problem in all English speaking markets of the world, I fear, Randy! Twelve rose's for #5! Lieve - ----- Original Message ---- From: Randy Remote To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Wed, 23 March, 2011 20:55:00 Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC From: > Bob Murphy's pet peeve was people who put the apostrophe in "its" when it > didn't belong. Worse (worst?) than that are the people who think that any plural deserves an apostrophe. Hence, in our local market, we have signs for avocado's, onion's, etc. That drives me nut's. RR ps, Bob, have a great trip!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:10:30 -0500 From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question More rock than roll ain't it? I'd like to hear Neil sing it or the good Queen, Freddie Mercury. Was Freddie Italian? Incorrect grammar in the arts is called "poetic license," right? Love, Laura (who is going to see Paz tomorrow night!!!) On Mar 23, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Gerald Notaro wrote: > Hey, it is rock and roll. You always sing any music the way it is written. > Joni's lyrics reflects the vernacular of her characters, not the Queen's > English. > > Jerry > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > >> "I should not have gotten on this flight tonight" >> >> I'm not singing that! It's hard enough staying out of the way of the slack >> string!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Gerald >> Notaro >> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:32 PM >> To: Catherine McKay >> Cc: Bob.Muller@fluor.com; joni@smoe.org >> Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question >> >> The have is this case has nothing to do with owning something. The have in >> this case refers to a tense, which means it must be gotten, not got. It is >> not I have got a cold, but tense related, I should have gotten on that >> plane >> tonight. Big difference. >> >> Jerry >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Catherine McKay >> wrote: >> >>> Yabbut, yabbut... >>> If it was about not having something (or not having it), as in, "I don't >>> have a >>> pot to pee in," I agree that it's better than saying, "I haven't got a >> pot >>> to >>> pee in," if only because it's fewer words, so the "got" part is >> redundant. >>> >>> But the song is about getting on a flight (or not.) (Do we really get on >> a >>> flight? No, I think we get on a plane.) >>> So: >>> I should not get on this flight tongight. >>> I should not have got/gotten on this flight tonight. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Gerald Notaro >>>> To: Bob.Muller@fluor.com >>>> Cc: joni@smoe.org >>>> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 2:38:55 PM >>>> Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question >>>> >>>> Both are incorrect, grammatically. The "have" makes it necessary for it >>> be >>>> be gotten to be correct. Others may disagree, but that is my opinion. >>>> >>>> Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:17:59 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question Gotten 'til it's gone! Jerry :-) On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:10 AM, LC Stanley wrote: > More rock than roll ain't it? I'd like to hear Neil sing it or the good > Queen, Freddie Mercury. Was Freddie Italian? > > Incorrect grammar in the arts is called "poetic license," right? > > Love, > Laura (who is going to see Paz tomorrow night!!!) > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Gerald Notaro wrote: > > > Hey, it is rock and roll. You always sing any music the way it is > written. > > Joni's lyrics reflects the vernacular of her characters, not the Queen's > > English. > > > > Jerry > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Susan Tierney McNamara < > sem8@cornell.edu>wrote: > > > >> "I should not have gotten on this flight tonight" > >> > >> I'm not singing that! It's hard enough staying out of the way of the > slack > >> string!! > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of > Gerald > >> Notaro > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:32 PM > >> To: Catherine McKay > >> Cc: Bob.Muller@fluor.com; joni@smoe.org > >> Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question > >> > >> The have is this case has nothing to do with owning something. The have > in > >> this case refers to a tense, which means it must be gotten, not got. It > is > >> not I have got a cold, but tense related, I should have gotten on that > >> plane > >> tonight. Big difference. > >> > >> Jerry > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Catherine McKay >>> wrote: > >> > >>> Yabbut, yabbut... > >>> If it was about not having something (or not having it), as in, "I > don't > >>> have a > >>> pot to pee in," I agree that it's better than saying, "I haven't got a > >> pot > >>> to > >>> pee in," if only because it's fewer words, so the "got" part is > >> redundant. > >>> > >>> But the song is about getting on a flight (or not.) (Do we really get > on > >> a > >>> flight? No, I think we get on a plane.) > >>> So: > >>> I should not get on this flight tongight. > >>> I should not have got/gotten on this flight tonight. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>>> From: Gerald Notaro > >>>> To: Bob.Muller@fluor.com > >>>> Cc: joni@smoe.org > >>>> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 2:38:55 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question > >>>> > >>>> Both are incorrect, grammatically. The "have" makes it necessary for > it > >>> be > >>>> be gotten to be correct. Others may disagree, but that is my opinion. > >>>> > >>>> Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 06:51:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question I know it's only rock 'n' roll but I like it, love it, yes I do! > >From: Gerald Notaro >To: LC Stanley >Cc: Susan Tierney McNamara ; Catherine McKay >; "Bob.Muller@fluor.com" ; >"joni@smoe.org" >Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 9:17:59 AM >Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question > >Gotten 'til it's gone! > >Jerry :-) > > > >On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:10 AM, LC Stanley wrote: > >More rock than roll ain't it? I'd like to hear Neil sing it or the good Queen, >Freddie Mercury. Was Freddie Italian? >> >>Incorrect grammar in the arts is called "poetic license," right? >> >>Love, >>Laura (who is going to see Paz tomorrow night!!!) >> >> >> >>On Mar 23, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Gerald Notaro wrote: >> >>> Hey, it is rock and roll. You always sing any music the way it is written. >>> Joni's lyrics reflects the vernacular of her characters, not the Queen's >>> English. >>> >>> Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 07:46:43 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Grammar Question Wow, Catherine. That's what I'm talking about! Okay, so both "court" and "spark" are pretty ancient terms it seems. I wonder if Joni heard Myrtle use them or read them in some book when she was in bed with polio. Fascinating. "For the Roses" was another album title that took some explication for most of us too. Thanks for the sleuth work; another mystery partly solved! Dave On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they talked > about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the "sparkin'" part > meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. > > I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: > http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes Joni > content too. > > > "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in some > dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The only use > I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title of the > Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except for the > fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni Mitchell's > version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards making > that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about President > Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his daughter > after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could like > the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect goddesslike > ethereal version is mystifying indeed. > > > "But I digress. > > "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late > eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked her") and > in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country girls of the > neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). > > > "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a lively, > elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of either > sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than dandy. > Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine gentlemen wore > yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've been short > of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a Man of > Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). > > > "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of uncertain > origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an ignited or > fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a Germanic word > with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also be from > an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the English word > makes this suggestion problematic." > > Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Dave Blackburn >> To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM >> Subject: Re: Grammar Question >> >> As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the current one on >> grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and Spark" itself. >> It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but that >> makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves are quite >> unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to me a bit of >> classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that grows >> into a flame." >> >> Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: >> >>> Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language nerd or >>> feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of folks >>> who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar (or >>> as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who said >>> he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. >>> >>> I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American thing so >>> thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as well that >>> writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie >>> Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for >>> christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass from me >>> because I love his music so much. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person >>> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain >>> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. >>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are >>> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, >>> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon >>> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please >>> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. >>> >>> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual >>> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:07:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Grammar Question I'm thinking something much more mundane, like Joni was watching reruns of the Beverly Hillbillies. I can't share any links because I can't access the fun stuff from work but if you google "Beverly Hillbillies courting and sparking," you'll find some stuff on Youtube. Apparently it came up on an episode called "Elly's First Date." This dates back to 1965, but I remember the term, because I always remember weird expressions. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dave Blackburn > To: Catherine McKay > Cc: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 10:46:43 AM > Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > Wow, Catherine. That's what I'm talking about! > > Okay, so both "court" and "spark" are pretty ancient terms it seems. I wonder >if Joni heard Myrtle use them or read them in some book when she was in bed with >polio. Fascinating. "For the Roses" was another album title that took some >explication for most of us too. Thanks for the sleuth work; another mystery >partly solved! > > Dave > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they talked > > > about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the "sparkin'" >part > > > meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. > > > > I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: > > http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes Joni > > content too. > > > > > > "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in some > > dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The only >use > > > I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title of >the > > > Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except for the > > > fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni >Mitchell's > > > version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards making > > > that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about President > > Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his >daughter > > > after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could like > > > the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect goddesslike > > ethereal version is mystifying indeed. > > > > > > "But I digress. > > > > "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late > > eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked her") >and > > > in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country girls of >the > > > neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). > > > > > > "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a lively, > > elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of either > > > sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than dandy. > > > Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine gentlemen >wore > > > yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've been >short > > > of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a Man of > > > Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). > > > > > > "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of uncertain > > origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an ignited or > > fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a Germanic >word > > > with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also be >from > > > an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the English >word > > > makes this suggestion problematic." > > > > Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Dave Blackburn > >> To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM > >> Subject: Re: Grammar Question > >> > >> As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the current one >on > > >> grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and Spark" >itself. > > >> It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but that > > >> makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves are >quite > > >> unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to me a >bit of > > >> classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that >grows > > >> into a flame." > >> > >> Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language nerd or > >>> feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of folks > > >>> who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar (or > >>> as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who said > >>> he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. > >>> > >>> I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American thing so > >>> thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as well that > > >>> writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie > >>> Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > >>> christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass from me > > >>> because I love his music so much. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person > >>> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > >>> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > >>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > >>> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > >>> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > >>> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > >>> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > >>> > >>> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > >>> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:13:29 -0400 From: Marianne Rizzo Subject: election, njc Hi all, I am wondering if Hillary Clinton will be Barack Obama's running mate in the next presidential election. \ I heard her say that after this term she will step down as Secretary of State. Marianne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:16:11 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Grammar Question I had a Southern female friend who felt that courting was a lost art. It is in the srt of courting well that will cause the sparks to fly! Frog went a courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh Frog went a courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh Frog went a courtin' and he did ride With a sword and a pistol by his side, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh He rode right up to Miss Mousie's door, uh-huh He rode right up to Miss Mousie's door, uh-huh He rode right up to Miss Mousie's door Gave three loud raps, and a very big roar, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh Said Miss Mouse, are you within, uh-huh Said Miss Mouse, are you within, uh-huh Said Miss Mouse, are you within Miss Mousie said, I sit and spin, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Took Miss Mousie on his knee, uh-huh Took Miss Mousie on his knee, uh-huh Took Miss Mousie on his knee, Said Miss Mousie, will you marry me, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Without my Uncle Rat's consent, uh-huh Without my Uncle Rat's consent, uh-huh Without my Uncle Rat's consent, I wouldn't marry the President, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Uncle Rat laughed, and he shook his fat sides, uh-huh Uncle Rat laughed, and he shook his fat sides, uh-huh Uncle Rat laughed, and he shook his fat sides To think his niece would be a bride, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Uncle Rat went running downtown, uh-huh Uncle Rat went running downtown, uh-huh Uncle Rat went running downtown To buy his niece a wedding gown, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Where shall the wedding supper be, uh-huh Where shall the wedding supper be, uh-huh Where shall the wedding supper be Way down yonder in the hollow tree, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh What shall the wedding supper be, uh-huh What shall the wedding supper be, uh-huh What shall the wedding supper be Fried mosquito and a black-eyed pea, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh First to come in was a flyin' moth, uh-huh First to come in was a flyin' moth, uh-huh First to come in was a flyin' moth She layed out the table cloth, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was a juney bug, uh-huh Next to come in was a juney bug, uh-huh Next to come in was a juney bug She brought in the water jug, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was a bumbly bee, uh-huh Next to come in was a bumbly bee, uh-huh Next to come in was a bumbly bee Sat mosquito on his knee, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was a broken back flea, uh-huh Next to come in was a broken back flea, uh-huh Next to come in was a broken back flea Danced a jig with the bumbly bee, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was Mrs. Cow, uh-huh Next to come in was Mrs. Cow, uh-huh Next to come in was Mrs. Cow She tried to dance but she didn't know how, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was a little black tick, uh-huh Next to come in was a little black tick, uh-huh Next to come in was a little black tick She ate so much it made her sick, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was the big black snake, uh-huh Next to come in was the big black snake, uh-huh Next to come in was the big black snake Ate up all of the wedding cake, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was the old gray cat, uh-huh Next to come in was the old gray cat, uh-huh Next to come in was the old gray cat Swallowed the mouse and ate up the rat, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Mr.Frog went a-hoppin up over the brooke, uh-huh Mr.Frog went a-hoppin up over the brooke, uh-huh Mr.Frog went a-hoppin up over the brooke A lily white dove came and swallowed him up, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Little piece of corn bread layin' on the shelf, uh-huh Little piece of corn bread layin' on the shelf, uh-huh Little piece of corn bread layin' on the shelf If you want anymore you can sing it yourself, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Jerry On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Wow, Catherine. That's what I'm talking about! > > Okay, so both "court" and "spark" are pretty ancient terms it seems. I > wonder if Joni heard Myrtle use them or read them in some book when she was > in bed with polio. Fascinating. "For the Roses" was another album title that > took some explication for most of us too. Thanks for the sleuth work; > another mystery partly solved! > > Dave > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they > talked > > about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the > "sparkin'" part > > meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. > > > > I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: > > http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes > Joni > > content too. > > > > > > "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in > some > > dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The > only use > > I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title > of the > > Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except for > the > > fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni > Mitchell's > > version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards > making > > that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about > President > > Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his > daughter > > after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could > like > > the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect > goddesslike > > ethereal version is mystifying indeed. > > > > > > "But I digress. > > > > "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late > > eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked > her") and > > in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country girls > of the > > neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). > > > > > > "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a lively, > > elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of > either > > sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than > dandy. > > Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine > gentlemen wore > > yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've > been short > > of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a > Man of > > Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). > > > > > > "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of uncertain > > origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an ignited > or > > fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a > Germanic word > > with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also be > from > > an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the > English word > > makes this suggestion problematic." > > > > Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Dave Blackburn > >> To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM > >> Subject: Re: Grammar Question > >> > >> As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the current > one on > >> grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and Spark" > itself. > >> It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but > that > >> makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves are > quite > >> unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to me > a bit of > >> classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that > grows > >> into a flame." > >> > >> Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language nerd > or > >>> feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of > folks > >>> who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar > (or > >>> as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who > said > >>> he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. > >>> > >>> I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American thing > so > >>> thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as well > that > >>> writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie > >>> Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > >>> christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass > from me > >>> because I love his music so much. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person > >>> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > >>> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > >>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > >>> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > >>> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > >>> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > >>> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > >>> > >>> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > >>> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:17:01 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Grammar Question And they always courted in "the parlor." Jerry On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I'm thinking something much more mundane, like Joni was watching reruns of > the > Beverly Hillbillies. > > I can't share any links because I can't access the fun stuff from work but > if > you google "Beverly Hillbillies courting and sparking," you'll find some > stuff > on Youtube. Apparently it came up on an episode called "Elly's First > Date." > This dates back to 1965, but I remember the term, because I always remember > weird expressions. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Dave Blackburn > > To: Catherine McKay > > Cc: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > > Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 10:46:43 AM > > Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > > > Wow, Catherine. That's what I'm talking about! > > > > Okay, so both "court" and "spark" are pretty ancient terms it seems. I > wonder > >if Joni heard Myrtle use them or read them in some book when she was in > bed with > >polio. Fascinating. "For the Roses" was another album title that took some > >explication for most of us too. Thanks for the sleuth work; another > mystery > >partly solved! > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > > > I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they > talked > > > > > about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the > "sparkin'" > >part > > > > > meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. > > > > > > I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: > > > http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes > Joni > > > content too. > > > > > > > > > "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in > some > > > dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The > only > >use > > > > > I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title > of > >the > > > > > Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except > for the > > > > > fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni > >Mitchell's > > > > > version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards > making > > > > > that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about > President > > > Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his > >daughter > > > > > after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could > like > > > > > the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect > goddesslike > > > ethereal version is mystifying indeed. > > > > > > > > > "But I digress. > > > > > > "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late > > > eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked > her") > >and > > > > > in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country > girls of > >the > > > > > neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). > > > > > > > > > "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a > lively, > > > elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of > either > > > > > sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than > dandy. > > > > > Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine > gentlemen > >wore > > > > > yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've > been > >short > > > > > of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a > Man of > > > > > Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). > > > > > > > > > "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of > uncertain > > > origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an > ignited or > > > > fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a > Germanic > >word > > > > > with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also > be > >from > > > > > an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the > English > >word > > > > > makes this suggestion problematic." > > > > > > Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > >> From: Dave Blackburn > > >> To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > > >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM > > >> Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > >> > > >> As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the > current one > >on > > > > >> grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and > Spark" > >itself. > > > > >> It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but > that > > > > >> makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves > are > >quite > > > > >> unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to > me a > >bit of > > > > >> classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that > >grows > > > > >> into a flame." > > >> > > >> Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? > > >> > > >> Dave > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > >> > > >>> Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language > nerd or > > > >>> feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of > folks > > > > >>> who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar > (or > > >>> as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who > said > > > >>> he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. > > >>> > > >>> I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American > thing so > > >>> thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as > well that > > > > >>> writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. > Stevie > > >>> Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > > >>> christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass > from me > > > > >>> because I love his music so much. > > >>> > > >>> Bob > > >>> > > >>> NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person > > >>> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > > >>> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > > >>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > > >>> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > > >>> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > > >>> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > > >>> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > >>> > > >>> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > > >>> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:21:04 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: election, njc Actually, I hope she runs instead of him. Blasphemous Jerry On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Marianne Rizzo wrote: > Hi all, > > I am wondering if Hillary Clinton will be Barack Obama's running mate in > the > next presidential election. > \ > I heard her say that after this term she will step down as Secretary of > State. > > Marianne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:30:26 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: election, njc Not so blasphemous, Jerry. I was all the way for Hillary in the primaries. I would love to see her run. Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Gerald Notaro Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:21 AM To: Marianne Rizzo Cc: joni list Subject: Re: election, njc Actually, I hope she runs instead of him. Blasphemous Jerry On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Marianne Rizzo wrote: > Hi all, > > I am wondering if Hillary Clinton will be Barack Obama's running mate in > the > next presidential election. > \ > I heard her say that after this term she will step down as Secretary of > State. > > Marianne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:28:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: election, njc I think SHE should run for Pres., and let him be HER bitch. Kinda like Joni and JT. :P Em - --- On Thu, 3/24/11, Marianne Rizzo wrote: From: Marianne Rizzo Subject: election, njc To: "joni list" Date: Thursday, March 24, 2011, 11:13 AM Hi all, I am wondering if Hillary Clinton will be Barack Obama's running mate in the next presidential election. \ I heard her say that after this term she will step down as Secretary of State. Marianne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:42:36 -0500 From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: election, njc Me too. On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:21 AM, Gerald Notaro wrote: > Actually, I hope she runs instead of him. > > Blasphemous Jerry > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Marianne Rizzo wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I am wondering if Hillary Clinton will be Barack Obama's running mate in >> the >> next presidential election. >> \ >> I heard her say that after this term she will step down as Secretary of >> State. >> >> Marianne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:14:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Grammar Question I agree. The romantic art of courting has been lost. My cousin used to sing this song. He sang it once while my family were visiting theirs, with our dog. When Peter started playing and singing, Ziggy the dog started to howl. I think it was more of a bonding thing than a "I hate your singing" thing. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gerald Notaro > To: Dave Blackburn > Cc: Catherine McKay ; Bob.Muller@fluor.com; jonipeople >LIST > Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 11:16:11 AM > Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > I had a Southern female friend who felt that courting was a lost art. It is > in the srt of courting well that will cause the sparks to fly! > > Frog went a courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh > Frog went a courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh > Frog went a courtin' and he did ride > With a sword and a pistol by his side, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:33:13 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: Most recent photo of Joni? Hi, I had two long dreams last week about Joni and my Joni friends and then when I saw Marian's post about Morgellon's I started wondering what the most recent photo or public appearance of Joni was (is this a run-on sentence with grammar issues? :)) Just wondering. Sue ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue Tierney || || McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 18:24:17 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Elizabeth Taylor njc I sent this to the list last night. But apparently I used my Gmail account and I'm not subscribed to the JMDL under that email address. So apparently it never made it to the listserv. To paraphrase a line from 'All About Eve': Elizabeth is a true star, a great star. She never has been or ever will be anything else. Well it turned out she was more than that. I remember seeing her on the cover of Life magazine in full make-up and gold headdress for 'Cleopatra' when I was a kid. I wondered why anybody would paint those little tips at the ends of their eyes and put all that guck all over their eyelids. I didn't know the phrase 'over the top' in those days but I think I would have used it to express my attitude toward her. Then when 'la scandale' broke, she and Richard Burton's faces were everywhere - Photoplay magazines, tabloids, newspapers, television. Denounced by the Pope for their doubly adulterous affair (both were married to other people). When they finally married after divorcing their respective spouses, they became the Brad and Angelina of their day. In my memory though, the spotlight shown even more glaringly on 'Liz and Dick'. It seemed we just couldn't get enough of them (or maybe we got too much of them, depending on your point of view). Divorced and re-married and then divorced again. Do they count Burton as two of her eight husbands? In the title of her sensational book, pulp biographer Kitty Kelly dubbed her 'The Last Star'. In Hollywood terms that may very well be true. In her time Elizabeth seemed to be the definition of the glamorous movie star whose life was larger than life. After her, it's hard to think of another one who fits that profile. The priceless jewelry collection, the furs, the long string of health problems (including a benign brain tumor), the substance abuse and the famous stay at the Betty Ford clinic, her friendship with Michael Jackson are all part of her legend. She was a beautiful child when she started making movies and she blossomed into a stunning woman as she matured. But there was more to Elizabeth Taylor than violet eyes, a pretty face and a voluptuous figure. She had genuine talent and developed into a fine actress. To me she is the definitive Maggie the Cat in the film of 'Cat on a Hot Tin Roof'. She capably played Kate 'the Shrew' in Franco Zeffirelli's film of Shakespeare's 'The Taming of the Shrew'. And her portrayal of the close-to-delusional, bitter, alcoholic college professor's wife who has fallen into the unfortunate habit of verbally abusing her husband in 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf' is nothing short of brilliant. Taking that difficult role in a film that was controversial at the time for its use of language that had been taboo in American movies (mild by today's standards) up until then was one of the braver choices of her career. She made her share of duds but she hit enough of them out of the park to assure her a place in filmdom's firmament. Somewhere I have a copy of Vanity Fair from 1992 with Elizabeth on the cover, glammed to the max, looking gorgeous, holding a condom in plain sight. In a time when the President of the United States would not even utter the word, Elizabeth mounted a campaign to raise awareness of the disease and to raise money, lots of money over the years, to fund research to fight AIDS. Whatever the excesses in her life, I personally feel like I owe her something. A lot, actually. She was 79 and when she was checked into hospital for congestive heart failure it seemed fairly certain that her time of release from a failing body was at hand. I even started thinking what I would want to write about her when the time came. I'm not sure what that says about me. Hopefully it says that her life was of some significance to me. I can't say I am devastated by her loss since I feel it was a release, but I am saddened by it. I never met the woman. She wasn't a close personal friend or family member. But I feel in my heart that she was an intelligent, compassionate and very brave person who rose above whatever notoriety was attached to her and used her fame to do some genuine good in the world. I still have a white t-shirt that I got in the 80s that has nothing but that pair of violet eyes on the front. On the back are the words 'Long Live Liz'. I know that was a name she disliked but it's the thought that counts. And the alliteration is a nice touch. Sorry for 2 long posts in as many days. But I had to write something about Elizabeth even though most of you probably know all of this stuff anyway. I promise to restrain myself for awhile. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 23:41:37 -0400 From: Jim Subject: Yes DVD: "Live at the Montreaux", njc Last week, I spent an enjoyable 1/2 hour on Amazon, reading reviews of DVDs of Yes concerts. I settled on "Live at the Montreaux" from 2003 and it arrived today. I guess the DVD was actually released in 2007, but never mind. The band on that night was Anderson, Squire, Howe, Wakeman, and White. This was the band that recorded "Going For The One" and "Tales from Topographic Oceans". But judging by Wikipedia, Bill Bruford was the drummer on "The Yes Album", "Fragile", and "Close To The Edge." So, I guess this is 4/5ths of the classic lineup. In this DVD, they are "on" most of the time and the highs make up for the lows. I didn't want my 2 hours back. I saw Yes several times "back in the day", but I was never close to the stage. Seeing this DVD, I got a deeper respect for Steve Howe's talent. I'd swear he was influenced by Les Paul in one spot. He has a big kit of tricks, for sure. This reviewer is happy. Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #90 **************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. 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