From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2011 #89 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jmdl.com JMDL Digest Thursday, March 24 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 089 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question [Lieve Reckers ] Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Grammar Question [Catherine McKay ] Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC ["Randy Remote" Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question Agreed again, Jerry. In fact I think most Brits still understand that distinction, they just don't use it. Instead of saying "Bruce has gotten an Armani suit" they would say "Bruce has got himself an Armani suit" which conveys that same meaning! Lieve - ----- Original Message ---- From: Gerald Notaro To: Deb Messling Cc: Bob.Muller@fluor.com; joni@smoe.org Sent: Wed, 23 March, 2011 22:15:26 Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question From grammarphobia.com. A wonderful explanation that there is a distinction of usage, and that it is correct and useful: TOMBSTONE: Use have got, not have gotten. R.I.P. People who take this prohibition seriously have gotten their grammar wrong. At one time, everyone agreed that the verb get had two past participles: got and gotten. (The past participle is the form of a verb that's used with have, had, or has.) It's true that the British stopped using have gotten about 300 years ago, while we in the Colonies kept using both have got and have gotten. But the result is not that Americans speak improper English. The result is that we have retained a nuance of meaning that the unfortunate Britons have lost. When we say, Bruce has got three Armani suits, we mean he has them in his possession. It's another way of saying he has them. When we say, Bruce has gotten three Armani suits, we mean he's acquired or obtained them. It's a very useful distinction, and one that the British would do well to reacquire. Jerry On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Deb Messling wrote: > > My blue-haired teacher in boarding school taught us NEVER to use the word > "gotten." Her > little maxim was "Gotten is Rotten." > > > -- > Deb Messling > dlmessling@gmail.com > http://bookbook.typepad.com/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:37:06 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC Neil Diamond: Songs she sang to me Songs she brang to me... definitely a worse offender than Stevie. On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > I do realize as well that > writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie > Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass from me > because I love his music so much. > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:40:04 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Grammar Question As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the current one on grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and Spark" itself. It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but that makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves are quite unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to me a bit of classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that grows into a flame." Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? Dave On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language nerd or > feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of folks > who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar (or > as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who said > he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. > > I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American thing so > thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as well that > writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie > Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass from me > because I love his music so much. > > Bob > > NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 21:55:24 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC definitely a worse offender than Stevie.> Neil Diamond also wrote the classic "no one heard, not even the chair" - WTF? And he just made the R&R Hall of Fame. Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 20:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Grammar Question I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they talked about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the "sparkin'" part meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes Joni content too. "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in some dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The only use I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title of the Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except for the fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni Mitchell's version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards making that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about President Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his daughter after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could like the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect goddesslike ethereal version is mystifying indeed. "But I digress. "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked her") and in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country girls of the neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a lively, elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of either sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than dandy. Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine gentlemen wore yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've been short of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a Man of Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of uncertain origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an ignited or fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a Germanic word with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also be from an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the English word makes this suggestion problematic." Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dave Blackburn > To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM > Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the current one on >grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and Spark" itself. >It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but that >makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves are quite >unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to me a bit of >classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that grows >into a flame." > > Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? > > Dave > > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > > Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language nerd or > > feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of folks > > who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar (or > > as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who said > > he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. > > > > I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American thing so > > thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as well that > > writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie > > Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > > christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass from me > > because I love his music so much. > > > > Bob > > > > NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:55:00 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC From: > Bob Murphy's pet peeve was people who put the apostrophe in "its" when it > didn't belong. Worse (worst?) than that are the people who think that any plural deserves an apostrophe. Hence, in our local market, we have signs for avocado's, onion's, etc. That drives me nut's. RR ps, Bob, have a great trip!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:41:02 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question NJC worserer' or da worserest' can't make up me mind all I know is that its time to take off me pants(es) and my shoes(es) as well. Just had a great session post concert with Clint and feeling groovy Night folks Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Mar 23, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Randy Remote wrote: From: > Bob Murphy's pet peeve was people who put the apostrophe in "its" when it > didn't belong. Worse (worst?) than that are the people who think that any plural deserves an apostrophe. Hence, in our local market, we have signs for avocado's, onion's, etc. That drives me nut's. RR ps, Bob, have a great trip!! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2011 #89 **************************** ------- To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------