From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2010 #318 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, October 24 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 318 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Feeling free and female sexuality [T Peckham ] Re: Feeling free and female sexuality ["Mark" ] Both Sides Now, Sign Language [Laura Stanley ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:58:58 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Where'd you go? I've been toggling back and forth between here and Facebook, trying to get caught up on my "reading"--ha ha! Hoping Mark's msg. can be re-posted so it's easier on my overworked eyes. I'll check back in later. :-) On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Lieve Reckers wrote: > Terra, Mark, > I had the same sort of problem with my emails - and sometimes still do, > when I > forget to turn on the "plain text", and stay on "rich text". > Mark, do try that solution, I wish you the best! > > By the way, I read your message just fine, because you also addressed it > direct > to me, and without the smoe filter it works fine. But for the sake of all > other > listers, I hope you can find a solution with plain text. > > In any case, Mark, I must say I agree with every word and nuancy of what > you > have written - except maybe that I was not so bothered by the academic > style of > the article. It was intended as an academic text, not a magazine article, > so I > just accepted that and enjoyed the gist of what the author was saying. > But thanks for what you wrote, it was heartening to read! > > Lieve > > PS If you can't find a way to re-send your post without all the annoying > "junk" > in it, let me know and I will forward the good version I received from you. > > > > > > > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:11:53 -0500 From: ava rosenblum Subject: question After reading Sheila Weller's book this summer, I have embarked on a retrospective journey of my youth via Joni's extraordinary body of work and am listening to it daily. I sent a small message earlier, asking whether a really good biography on Joni had been written. One of the reasons is that as I now listen to the music at age 58, I find myself wondering whether many of the relationship breakups were due to feeling let down by the men involved. Sometimes the one to leave first does so due to neglect. Curious. This seems like a very sharp group of people. I was in the pop music world as a young woman until I got nodes on my vocal chords, which led me to go back to school....and today I am a teacher. best wishes, ava ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 14:28:01 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Trying again. - -----Original Message----- From: Lieve Reckers Hi Laura and Jerry, I wouldn't deny that you make valid points, but it's all a bit one sided, isn't it? I cannot believe for one minute (and I would be very sad if I had to believe) that Joni's conclusion is to totally reject the real sexual liberation that happened in the '60s and '70s. It was very much needed, I feel. Of course, it led to excesses and some unexpected negative consequences, but let's identify those without condemning the whole liberation, which I feel was a very joyous, empowering process. Of course, Joni is right, nothing is ever totally free, we end up getting the bill presented at the most unexpected moments, but still... isn't it sometimes worth it? ...... I cannot imagine that Joni has lost all those ideals. I know, sometimes when I see the excesses, I feel like giving it all up too. Yes, sex kills. And sex sells everything. When I see the way sex is exploited, cheapened, vulgarised, I want to "get myself to a nunnery", to mis-quote Shakespeare. But it's like saying you give up on friendship, just because some friends let you down. Lieve, I agree with you here that Joni has never advocated a total rejection of sexual liberation. Yes, she did write bSex Killsb and made comments about bfree loveb and nothing ever being free. You pay and pay, as she says. But four years after the release of bSex Killsb she recorded bHappiness Is the Best Faceliftb which certainly references the sexual nature of a romantic relationship and the stigma still attached to sex out of wedlock by her motherbs generation. The same record includes the song she co-wrote with the man she was having a relationship at the time bThe Crazy Cries of Loveb which is a celebration of unrestrained sexual expression. When I read this article, I found myself feeling more and more ambivalent about it. So I did a wee bit of sleuthing to find out what the publication was about and who the author was. I didnbt find much but I did find this about the author: bA former attorney, Marilyn Adler Papayanis received her Ph.D. from Rutgers University and teaches English at Montclair State University. She was named winner of the 2001 Durell Prize for Scholarship.b About the publication I found: bPopular Music and Society, founded in 1971, publishes articles, book reviews, and audio reviews on popular music of any genre, time period, or geographic location. Popular Music and Society is open to all scholarly orientations toward popular music, including (but not limited to) historical, theoretical, critical, sociological, and cultural approaches. The terms "popular" and "society" are broadly defined to accommodate a wide range of articles on the subject.b So this is a bit different from a piece written for bVanity Fairb or bThe Rolling Stone'. It is more like a scholarly thesis. It even states its intention of what it will say at the beginning, says it and sums up what it just said at the end. Just like a thesis. At first I thought, bGreat! A serious analysis of Jonibs lyrics!b And the article did make me think about a lot of things I would not have otherwise. The various narrative structures of the songs, for instance b subject/object, passive/active b was fascinating to me. But I was also somewhat put off by the writing style. It seems almost like the author chose words and phrases just to showcase her vocabulary and knowledge of language. Perhaps that comes with the territory of this type of writing. Although there isnbt anything that requires a Ph. D. in English to understand, I was somewhat put off by this. I was also irritated by the misquoting of many of the lyrics. Although the discrepancies usually did not change the essential thoughts or meanings, it seems to me that if someone is going to write what seems to be a scholarly thesis on some aspect of Joni Mitchellbs lyrics, they would at least take the trouble to quote those lyrics accurately. A while ago, Michel Byrne wrote a response to my complaint about the line bmermaids live in coloniesb in the song bThe Dawntreaderb that suggested the line might be a reference to manbs fantasy of a bharem of temptresses waiting for him somewhere far out at sea (maybe an implication that he 'collects' lovers, and that she's aware of only being the latest in a long line of catches). b (I was going to respond to that post but somehow never got around to it. Sorry, Michel.) That got me to thinking about bCactus Treeb and wondering when there had ever before been a song written from a womanbs point of view about unashamedly having multiple lovers and how it would have been received, say, only 5 years earlier. As Marilyn Adler Papayanis pointed out, the pen-ultimate line of the last verse of 'Little Greenb is bYoubre sad and youbre sorry but *youbre not ashamed*b. I think there is a key here as to what Jonibs lyrics about sexuality project. Like many things in our lives, sex is something that should be experienced responsibly. But it is *not* something that should be a source of shame or guilt. Certainly disease has contributed to the demonization of sex over the recorded history of humans. Patriarchal systems have also played their part by imposing strict rules of monogamy on women that come from the malebs primitive need to preserve a pure genetic line. Various religious beliefs probably sprang up at least partially as a result of both of these attitudes. But what it boils down to is feeling free to fulfill a fundamental physical and psychological need that is present in all of us. This is putting aside the whole issue of the primitive instinct to reproduce and preserve the species which Ibm not going to go into. I do think the importance of sex and sexual attractiveness has been blown up way out of proportion in some ways. Speaking as a gay male, I certainly know the consequences of buying into that. Obviously I canbt address the subject from a womanbs point of view. But I do think that sexuality, as long as it is combined with a sense of responsibility and awareness of its possible consequences, should be free for consenting adults to express in any way they choose or that their natures dictate. I agree with Laura, that Joni was writing, consciously or not, about sexual liberation for both men and women. That being said, there is what I think is a significant part of the song bBlueb that Papayanis does not touch on: Acid booze and ass Needles guns and grass Lots of laughs Lots of laughs Everybodybs saying that Hellbs the hippest way to go Well I donbt think so But Ibm going to take a look around it though Granted, the expression bassb is decidedly male, in my mind anyway. But there is still a degree of doubt that Joni expressed here about the hedonistic atmosphere she was living in and bassb or sex was decidedly a part of that. The article did point out, however, that the song bCactus Treeb was not about a list of conquests but rather that the woman in question feels love for all of the men she is periodically involved with. But she is unwilling to sacrifice her bfreedomb to commit to just one. And by freedom, I think Joni meant something far more encompassing than the freedom to have sexual relations with multiple lovers. But what bCactus Treeb describes is not the same as what the word bassb or the phrase bpiece of assb implies. It would be interesting to see a follow-up of this article that encompasses Jonibs later songs that explore her conflict between the old 50s, early 60s view of romantic love involving the preservation of female chastity until the sanctification of marriage and the eventual rejection of that model. bSong for Sharonb is one of her most telling examples of this conflict b bBut the ceremony of the bells and lace still veils this reckless fool here b continuing up through bDon Juanbs Reckless Daughterb b bthere is danger and education in living out such a reckless lifestyleb b notice the repetition of the word brecklessb - and all the way up to the conflict with Myrtle over being bshacked up downtown making love without a license, same old sacred cowb in bHappiness is the Best Faceliftb. I donbt think she ever has resolved the conflict of her need for connection and love with her need for autonomy, whether that autonomy be the freedom to pursue her own career path or find a partnership unshackled by bjealousy and greedb or just the right to freely express her sexuality with whomever she pleases. Finally, I have to say that I did *not* write this sentence of the article (or any of the rest of it): bIn some sense, I like to think of Dylan and Mitchell as popular music analogues to modernist icons James Joyce and Virginia Woolf.b Thank you to Kakki, Jerry, Lieve, Laura and everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts and, as I said, as a male I cannot possibly see these issues from a womanbs point of view. So it has been enlightening to see what some of you have had to say about it. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 20:28:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Both Sides Now, Sign Language Lieve wrote a while back about this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruLwUanEJd0 But let me stick my head into the sign language hornets nest one more time. I should say upfront, I am a total language nut, I read books about linguistics for fun, and the one job I have enjoyed most of all in my life is that of translator. So my interest in sign language is first of all just academic. I would really like to understand how nuanced this language can be. I don't have the time to go and study sign language for myself, so I need to rely on the reports of those who know it, which is why I asked my initial question. I cannot begin to imagine how sign language can translate fine nuances. For instance: if someone deaf, who did not already know the lyrics, were in the audience where this clip of BSN was recorded, and he or she were asked to write down what they had seen, what sort of text would come out? I am not expecting the lyrics of BSN to miraculously reappear, of course. But would it even be recognisable? This intrigues me no end, and I would still like to find out more about it. (I know, of course, that it would depend on the verbal skills of the deaf person writing down what he or she has seen. So there would not be one definitive result. But I hope you understand my intention.) Hi Lieve, One of my dear friends, Joan Blake in OKC, is a Nationally Certified interpreter for the deaf. So I sent her the YouTube video of Clay Aiken singing "Both Sides Now" with the interpreter signing and this snippet above of your post. Joan wrote out part of what the interpreter was signing. She said it would be an artistic challenge to sign at a Joni concert, one she would turn down because of the complexity. She had this to say about signing a Joni song: You need to know that sign language interpreting is similar to other language interpreting in many ways, but not all. For example, all interpreters not only translate the words, but also adapt the grammatical structures. We also mediate the cultures, because a word that evokes an image in one culture may not carry that same significance in another. A good example is the word bcloudsb in this song. To our hearing American culture, clouds are a metaphor for any number of concepts, several of which are used in this song. In Deaf culture, clouds are just clouds. They are not a metaphor for anything. Sign Language has metaphors, but clouds are not one of them. The big difference between sign language interpreting and spoken language interpreting is that we are interpreting not only into a different language, but also a different mode b& auditory to visual. That means that sometimes signing the exact word that was spoken actually hinders the translation because visually it doesnbt mean the same thing, so it might be better to use a different word that carries the intended impact better. For example, if you used the sign bdriveb in the phrase bblood drive,b it wouldnbt make sense. So the interpreter would sign bblood donation.b You also need to know that there are two kinds of sign language. One is a word-for-word translation of the English (we call it transliterating) b& the signs are produced in English word order, omitting words like btheb and bofb and some others. This is not a true interpretation, but it is desirable for someone who grew up using English and is familiar with the idiomatic use of English phrases. If I lost my hearing, this is the kind of interpreting I would want. Tell me the words, and Ibll figure out what they mean. The other is a concept-for-concept interpretation. It may use some or all of the actual words being spoken, or none of them, but the ideas will be conveyed accurately. This is for Deaf people who are not familiar with English, and this is the form I would use if I were interpreting a Joni Mitchell song. I donbt know which form the interpreter you are discussing used. It depends on the Deaf audience and their preferred language. I guess you also need to know that an awful lot of sign language is conveyed through facial expression and the placement (in space) of the signs. For example, when signing the first line of the song, I would look up toward the sky with sparkling eyes and a joyful smile on my face, and my signs would be high in the air to my left. At the third line, my face would turn sad, wrinkled brow, and my signs will still be high, but to my right. This pattern will be followed throughout the song: the first two lines with a happy face and slightly to my left, the last two with a furrowed, sad face and slightly to my right. That sets up my bboth sides nowb for each verse. Joan wrote part of what the interpreter in the video was signing: See, see, see sky, shapes, angel hair Ice cream castles there (this next bit is tough b she sort of drew canyons in the air and then placed them with her open palm-out hands) See, see, see clouds that way Change, now different, sun block Snow, rain all over My goal, goal, goal difficult Goal, goal, goal clouds block See, see, see clouds, look-left beautiful, look-right difficult conflict Clouds (left), clouds (right) block, Still here way (?), cloud obscure I remember (shebs using a lovely sign, exaggerated almost beyond recognition, that refers to looking back at a previous event) Really mull-over clouds, I not understand, puzzled. Moon, months, ferris wheel Twirl around, inspire love Every story life becomes true true (Canbt figure out this sign) love way. Push-aside, different, conflict What for (why) love brag, escape, escape, donbt care Cherish? Express it b no, hold it in (very nicely done!) Keep quiet (shhh!) b safe. See, see, see love Both look-left, look-right Still inflate (feel great), deflate (feel crummy) But way, no-matter, remember, Love I mull-over Live love, I REALLY puzzled. Joan wrote: "When I repeated a sign (like bsee, see, seeb), that means it shouldnbt have been repeated. She should have signed bLook-atb b ONCE. This gives you an idea of what the deaf people saw, but it doesnbt tell you how they understood it." To help us understand how the deaf people likely understood it, Joan wrote a translation below each stanza: Bows and flows of angel hair and ice cream castles in the air And feather canyons everywhere, i've looked at cloud that way. But now they only block the sun, they rain and snow on everyone. So many things i would have done but clouds got in my way. I look up and see something spread out like angel hair, another shaped like a castle, Mountains, pictures everywhere, clouds are so cool! Now I find they hide the sun, rain and snow all over, cold Many things I wish Ibd done, but clouds ruined it. I've looked at clouds from both sides now, From up and down, and still somehow It's cloud illusions i recall. I really don't know clouds at all. Ibve studied clouds for a long time now, Sometimes beautiful, sometimes dark and sad Those false pictures I cherish True clouds, honestly, I donbt understand. Moons and junes and ferris wheels, the dizzy dancing way you feel As every fairy tale comes real; i've looked at love that way. But now it's just another show. you leave 'em laughing when you go And if you care, don't let them know, don't give yourself away. Falling in love, your head spins, you feel like dancing Childrenbs stories come true, love is so cool! Now I find itbs like a play b when itbs finished, he says good-bye and leaves If you love him, donbt show it, donbt openly admit it. I've looked at love from both sides now, From give and take, and still somehow It's love's illusions i recall. I really don't know love at all. Ibve studied love for a long time now Sometimes happy, sometimes pain That false love I cherish True love, I honestly donbt understand. Tears and fears and feeling proud to say "i love you" right out loud, Dreams and schemes and circus crowds, i've looked at life that way. But now old friends are acting strange, they shake their heads, they say I've changed. Something's lost but something's gained in living every day. Tears and fears and feeling proud to announce bI love youb Dreams and plans and people milling-around, life is so cool! Now I find friends seem strange, they look me up and down and say Ibm different Somethingbs gone, and somethingbs added by living every day. I've looked at life from both sides now, From win and lose, and still somehow It's life's illusions i recall. I really don't know life at all. Ibve studied life for a long time now Sometimes win, sometimes lose Like a cloud, full of falsehood (sign false, false, false) Life, I honestly donbt understand. Hope you find this interesting! I did! If you would like to thank Joan for all the time she put into this, please send your note to my email address, and I'll forward it to her. Love, Laura ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2010 #318 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------