From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2010 #317 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, October 23 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 317 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Feeling free, etc. [] Re: Feeling free and female sexuality [Lieve Reckers ] Re: Feeling free and female sexuality [Lieve Reckers ] Re: Feeling free and female sexuality [T Peckham ] Re: Feeling free and female sexuality [Lieve Reckers Subject: Feeling free, etc. Argh, part of me wants to respond and the other part says "why step into it?" But I guess I am stepping in ;-) I lived my so-called formative years right in the midst of these "revolutions" of the 60s-70s. Even at that time parts of these movements did not resonate with me in some ways. Sure, you can argue that in that generation we could be have been considered way too restricted by social mores. But having lived through it the whole "free," do your own thing attitude did not ultimately prove to be so universally enlightened nor liberating in the end. To many it was just a "free for all" without any responsibility or moral values and did not automatically lead to a higher level of caring and respect, especially for women. In retrospect many aspects of this revolution did a lot to keep women in a way that was yet another kind of "second class citizen" status. I'm not going to get into that here but some can discern what I mean. I've always understood why Joni did not want to be labeled a "feminist". Not because I didn't understand that women were discriminaated against in many crucial ways. I can write books on what I encountered back then, in college and career aspirations and personally because I was female. But I always had this attitude of wanting to somehow transcend it. I didn't want to be militant as a female because somehow, to me, that was admitting I was a victim, and I never wanted to buy into that from a personal, spiritual or individual standpoint. In that sense I think Joni felt the same. She was going to be herself and actualize her talents no matter what. Regarding herself as a victim would only be a distraction and setback to her ultimate trajectory and achievement. At the same time I have to give a lot of credit to the women who were activists - their efforts led to me finally being no longer paid 25 cents on the dollar compared to men for doing the same job. And once the laws evolved, so did the world where women also garnered not just equal pay but more professional respect. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:03:47 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Thanks, Laura. Yes, there are definitely two sides, or maybe more. I just didn't want the real value of what was achieved then, to be forgotten because of the negatives that also came forth from it. Your last point is also very relevant. I think there were really 2 liberation movements going on: one feminist, one sexual. Some of it overlapped (i.e. women demanding the right to be sexually active) but also some of it definitely didn't (i.e. women ending up being used and devalued because they felt they had to go along with "all this freedom"). I would also like to reply to Kakki here. Again, much of what you say is what we are all saying and agreeing on here. All different prisms of the caleidoscope. To quote you: "To many it was just a "free for all" without any responsibility or moral values and did not automatically lead to a higher level of caring and respect, especially for women." I was trying to allude to that in what I wrote yesterday. I said that in those youthful days we had to make up our own morality from scratch. What the church and school had told us so far was just not the whole truth any more. We knew life, love and sex could be much more complicated, and we wanted to find our own way through the jungle, at our own peril of being hurt, but with the possible reward of much more profound emotions, passions, friendships and loves and encounters. I have certainly been in agony more often than in extacy, but I wouldn't have wanted to miss that experience, that struggle to find what it was all about. Maybe this is more difficult to understand for those who came from a more liberal, tolerant background. In my case, if I wanted the letter A of freedom, my father would immediately confront me with the whole alphabet, and I was obliged to discuss and defend it, even if I hadn't yet experienced most of it. I either had to defend it or admit it was wrong, so I defended it and was branded immoral for it. And the more he thought me immoral, the more I would develop my own moral code, to prove I was super-moral, questioning everything I ever did very severely, but never just by the agreed norms of society. I don't know if this makes sense as I am trying to write it in a very condense way, but this is what I recognise in Joni's lyrics and in this article written about it, and I just want to make sure it is not all dismissed as "Oh yeah, the experiment that didn't work". Kakki, I also agree with your comment about feminism. I admire what certain pioneers feminists have done, but I am not comfortable in a group that sees itself as victims, so I had rather walk alone, away from the pack. Thanks for the discussion! Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Laura Stanley To: lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk Cc: joni@smoe.org; notaro@mail.usf.edu Sent: Sat, 23 October, 2010 2:42:49 Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Lieve wrote: I wouldn't deny that you make valid points, but it's all a bit one sided, isn't it? I cannot believe for one minute (and I would be very sad if I had to believe) that Joni's conclusion is to totally reject the real sexual liberation that happened in the '60s and '70s. Hi Lieve, Yes, what I said was one sided to make two. With the ideas in Sex Kills in addition to All I Want we have both sides now. Women's liberation definitely gained momentum in the 1960's; yet, in the quest for liberation, the early form of the pill caused women to die of breast cancer. The doctor's pill gave a deadly ill. When I think of the liberation of the '60's and '70's, this sometimes overshadows the good that you mention Lieve. Thank you for reminding me of it. There has not been a women's movement of the magnitude of that created 100 years earlier by Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton in the 1860's. They not only planted the seeds for the 1960's but created a huge wave of questioning whether or not the ideals held by men were truly better that of women. To me that questioning is usually at the heart of valid women's liberation. Talking about history... I couldn't help but notice how history repeated itself when Barack beat Hillary and became president, similar to the pattern of black men gaining the right to vote before women. I wonder what 2060 will bring for our grandchildren? Hopefully they will be appalled by the lack of rights of women and also gays described in their history books as I am when I read about the holocaust and slavery. Also, I can't help but notice that even though Joni wrote so many liberating lyrics, she doesn't present herself as a feminist. The article got me thinking of feminism, but now I wonder if it really was talking more about the general sexual revolution of the 1960's involving both men and women? Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 08:34:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Lieve wrote: "We knew life, love and sex could be much more complicated, and we wanted to find our own way through the jungle, at our own peril of being hurt, but with the possible reward of much more profound emotions, passions, friendships and loves and encounters. I have certainly been in agony more often than in extacy, but I wouldn't have wanted to miss that experience, that struggle to find what it was all about. Maybe this is more difficult to understand for those who came from a more liberal, tolerant background. In my case, if I wanted the letter A of freedom, my father would immediately confront me with the whole alphabet, and I was obliged to discuss and defend it, even if I hadn't yet experienced most of it. I either had to defend it or admit it was wrong, so I defended it and was branded immoral for it. " Hi Lieve, Your posts are great!! I vote that you be the writer for JoniMitchell.com. You write beautifully, and I love the way think. I came from a very liberal background, but it wasn't synergistically more tolerant. My father was very critical of people who didn't hold his flavor of liberalism. He made uncouth comments, sometimes about my friends, in private conversation. He was definitely not tolerant of gays. He provided the means for me to live a wild life, letting me use his "hippie wagon" complete with shag carpet, a back seat that folded into a bed, curtains, and an oval stained glass window. He supplied me with alcohol, Canadian cigarettes, and pot smoking paraphernalia. I was not only allowed but encouraged to grow my Cannabis sativa plants in the backyard. They grew as tall as the roof and had the most awesome, plush flower tops. He was into rock-n-roll, especially the Beatles, and still today at 73 years old keeps up with current music better than I do. Yeah... the jungle. Definitely. The only sense of stability in my life in the 70's was the Catholic all girls high school I attended. It was liberal, tolerant, and encouraged me to question everything. I don't know if I would be alive today if it wasn't for that school. Above all else, it was pro-truth and helped me to learn to be honest and speak out especially in regard to women's issues. It was tolerant and loving toward gays with some of the nuns, if not most, lesbians themselves. The nuns of this particular order were among the first to stop wearing veils. One of my best friends at that school introduced me to Joni's music. I like the word "complicated." But just because things are complex, it doesn't mean they can't be approached with simplicity, one part at a time until the whole picture can be assimilated and portrayed. You do this in your writing and so does Joni. I love it that you grow through struggles and hurt. That is something I love about Joni too. Thank you for your beautiful and courageous words. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:59:39 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Feeling free, etc. As always Kakki, very well spoken, intelligent insight into a topic that has been kind of in the forefront as of late. Thanks for weighing in. Hope all is well! Paz (getting ready to head out on tour again) Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Oct 23, 2010, at 3:12 AM, wrote: Argh, part of me wants to respond and the other part says "why step into it?" But I guess I am stepping in ;-) I lived my so-called formative years right in the midst of these "revolutions" of the 60s-70s. Even at that time parts of these movements did not resonate with me in some ways. Sure, you can argue that in that generation we could be have been considered way too restricted by social mores. But having lived through it the whole "free," do your own thing attitude did not ultimately prove to be so universally enlightened nor liberating in the end. To many it was just a "free for all" without any responsibility or moral values and did not automatically lead to a higher level of caring and respect, especially for women. In retrospect many aspects of this revolution did a lot to keep women in a way that was yet another kind of "second class citizen" status. I'm not going to get into that here but some can discern what I mean. I've always understood why Joni did not want to be labeled a "feminist". Not because I didn't understand that women were discriminaated against in many crucial ways. I can write books on what I encountered back then, in college and career aspirations and personally because I was female. But I always had this attitude of wanting to somehow transcend it. I didn't want to be militant as a female because somehow, to me, that was admitting I was a victim, and I never wanted to buy into that from a personal, spiritual or individual standpoint. In that sense I think Joni felt the same. She was going to be herself and actualize her talents no matter what. Regarding herself as a victim would only be a distraction and setback to her ultimate trajectory and achievement. At the same time I have to give a lot of credit to the women who were activists - their efforts led to me finally being no longer paid 25 cents on the dollar compared to men for doing the same job. And once the laws evolved, so did the world where women also garnered not just equal pay but more professional respect. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 17:19:39 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Thanks so much for your kind words and for understanding me, Laura! It is so strange: your experience almost seems to mirror mine as a total opposite! Your father encouraged you to be wild, mine tried to put me in a cage (even though, to be fair, he also liked the Beatles and had been a wonderful father in every respect until it came to his subject). You ran to the nuns for clear thought and tolerance, I ran away from them to escape their false reasonings and endoctrinations. It's a strange old world, isn't it? But it sounds like we've both, in different ways, learned from struggles and hurt! Love, Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Laura Stanley To: lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Sat, 23 October, 2010 16:34:06 Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Lieve wrote: "We knew life, love and sex could be much more complicated, and we wanted to find our own way through the jungle, at our own peril of being hurt, but with the possible reward of much more profound emotions, passions, friendships and loves and encounters. I have certainly been in agony more often than in extacy, but I wouldn't have wanted to miss that experience, that struggle to find what it was all about. Maybe this is more difficult to understand for those who came from a more liberal, tolerant background. In my case, if I wanted the letter A of freedom, my father would immediately confront me with the whole alphabet, and I was obliged to discuss and defend it, even if I hadn't yet experienced most of it. I either had to defend it or admit it was wrong, so I defended it and was branded immoral for it. " Hi Lieve, Your posts are great!! I vote that you be the writer for JoniMitchell.com. You write beautifully, and I love the way think. I came from a very liberal background, but it wasn't synergistically more tolerant. My father was very critical of people who didn't hold his flavor of liberalism. He made uncouth comments, sometimes about my friends, in private conversation. He was definitely not tolerant of gays. He provided the means for me to live a wild life, letting me use his "hippie wagon" complete with shag carpet, a back seat that folded into a bed, curtains, and an oval stained glass window. He supplied me with alcohol, Canadian cigarettes, and pot smoking paraphernalia. I was not only allowed but encouraged to grow my Cannabis sativa plants in the backyard. They grew as tall as the roof and had the most awesome, plush flower tops. He was into rock-n-roll, especially the Beatles, and still today at 73 years old keeps up with current music better than I do. Yeah... the jungle. Definitely. The only sense of stability in my life in the 70's was the Catholic all girls high school I attended. It was liberal, tolerant, and encouraged me to question everything. I don't know if I would be alive today if it wasn't for that school. Above all else, it was pro-truth and helped me to learn to be honest and speak out especially in regard to women's issues. It was tolerant and loving toward gays with some of the nuns, if not most, lesbians themselves. The nuns of this particular order were among the first to stop wearing veils. One of my best friends at that school introduced me to Joni's music. I like the word "complicated." But just because things are complex, it doesn't mean they can't be approached with simplicity, one part at a time until the whole picture can be assimilated and portrayed. You do this in your writing and so does Joni. I love it that you grow through struggles and hurt. That is something I love about Joni too. Thank you for your beautiful and courageous words. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:42:31 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality - -----Original Message-----=20 From: Lieve Reckers=20 Hi Laura and Jerry, I wouldn't deny that you make valid points, but it's all a bit one = sided, isn't=20 it? I cannot believe for one minute (and I would be very sad if I had = to=20 believe) that Joni's conclusion is to totally reject the real sexual = liberation=20 that happened in the '60s and '70s. It was very much needed, I feel. = Of=20 course, it led to excesses and some unexpected negative consequences, = but let's=20 identify those without condemning the whole liberation, which I feel was = a very=20 joyous, empowering process. Of course, Joni is right, nothing is ever = totally=20 free, we end up getting the bill presented at the most unexpected = moments, but=20 still... isn't it sometimes worth it? ...... I cannot imagine that Joni has lost all those ideals.=20 I know, sometimes when I see the excesses, I feel like giving it all up = too. =20 Yes, sex kills. And sex sells everything. When I see the way sex is = exploited,=20 cheapened, vulgarised, I want to "get myself to a nunnery", to mis-quote = Shakespeare. But it's like saying you give up on friendship, just = because some=20 friends let you down. Lieve, I agree with you here that Joni has never advocated a total rejection of = sexual liberation. Yes, she did write =E2=80=98Sex Kills=E2=80=99 and = made comments about =E2=80=98free love=E2=80=99 and nothing ever being = free. You pay and pay, as she says.=20 But four years after the release of =E2=80=98Sex Kills=E2=80=99 she = recorded =E2=80=98Happiness Is the Best Facelift=E2=80=99 which = certainly references the sexual nature of a romantic relationship and = the stigma still attached to sex out of wedlock by her mother=E2=80=99s = generation. The same record includes the song she co-wrote with the man = she was having a relationship at the time =E2=80=98The Crazy Cries of = Love=E2=80=99 which is a celebration of unrestrained sexual expression. When I read this article, I found myself feeling more and more = ambivalent about it. So I did a wee bit of sleuthing to find out what = the publication was about and who the author was. I didn=E2=80=99t find = much but I did find this about the author: =E2=80=9CA former attorney, = Marilyn Adler Papayanis received her Ph.D. from Rutgers University and = teaches English at Montclair State University. She was named winner of = the 2001 Durell Prize for Scholarship.=E2=80=9D About the publication I = found: =E2=80=9CPopular Music and Society, founded in 1971, publishes = articles, book reviews, and audio reviews on popular music of any genre, = time period, or geographic location. Popular Music and Society is open = to all scholarly orientations toward popular music, including (but not = limited to) historical, theoretical, critical, sociological, and = cultural approaches. The terms "popular" and "society" are broadly = defined to accommodate a wide range of articles on the subject.=E2=80=9D = =20 So this is a bit different from a piece written for =E2=80=98Vanity = Fair=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98The Rolling Stone'. It is more like a = scholarly thesis. It even states its intention of what it will say at = the beginning, says it and sums up what it just said at the end. Just = like a thesis. =20 At first I thought, =E2=80=98Great! A serious analysis of = Joni=E2=80=99s lyrics!=E2=80=99 And the article did make me think about = a lot of things I would not have otherwise. The various narrative = structures of the songs, for instance =E2=80=93 subject/object, = passive/active =E2=80=93 was fascinating to me. =20 But I was also somewhat put off by the writing style. It seems almost = like the author chose words and phrases just to showcase her vocabulary = and knowledge of language. Perhaps that comes with the territory of = this type of writing. Although there isn=E2=80=99t anything that = requires a Ph. D. in English to understand, I was somewhat put off by = this. I was also irritated by the misquoting of many of the lyrics. = Although the discrepancies usually did not change the essential thoughts = or meanings, it seems to me that if someone is going to write what seems = to be a scholarly thesis on some aspect of Joni Mitchell=E2=80=99s = lyrics, they would at least take the trouble to quote those lyrics = accurately. A while ago, Michel Byrne wrote a response to my complaint about the = line =E2=80=98mermaids live in colonies=E2=80=99 in the song = =E2=80=98The Dawntreader=E2=80=99 that suggested the line might be a = reference to man=E2=80=99s fantasy of a =E2=80=98harem of temptresses = waiting for him somewhere far out at sea (maybe an implication that he = 'collects' lovers, and that she's aware of only being the latest in a = long line of catches). =E2=80=98 (I was going to respond to that post = but somehow never got around to it. Sorry, Michel.) That got me to = thinking about =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 and wondering when there = had ever before been a song written from a woman=E2=80=99s point of view = about unashamedly having multiple lovers and how it would have been = received, say, only 5 years earlier. As Marilyn Adler Papayanis pointed = out, the pen-ultimate line of the last verse of 'Little Green=E2=80=99 = is =E2=80=98You=E2=80=99re sad and you=E2=80=99re sorry but = *you=E2=80=99re not ashamed*=E2=80=9D. I think there is a key here as = to what Joni=E2=80=99s lyrics about sexuality project. Like many things = in our lives, sex is something that should be experienced responsibly. = But it is *not* something that should be a source of shame or guilt. =20 Certainly disease has contributed to the demonization of sex over the = recorded history of humans. Patriarchal systems have also played their = part by imposing strict rules of monogamy on women that come from the = male=E2=80=99s primitive need to preserve a pure genetic line. Various = religious beliefs probably sprang up at least partially as a result of = both of these attitudes. =20 But what it boils down to is feeling free to fulfill a fundamental = physical and psychological need that is present in all of us. This is = putting aside the whole issue of the primitive instinct to reproduce and = preserve the species which I=E2=80=99m not going to go into. I do think = the importance of sex and sexual attractiveness has been blown up way = out of proportion in some ways. Speaking as a gay male, I certainly = know the consequences of buying into that. Obviously I can=E2=80=99t = address the subject from a woman=E2=80=99s point of view. But I do = think that sexuality, as long as it is combined with a sense of = responsibility and awareness of its possible consequences, should be = free for consenting adults to express in any way they choose or that = their natures dictate. I agree with Laura, that Joni was writing, = consciously or not, about sexual liberation for both men and women. That being said, there is what I think is a significant part of the song = =E2=80=98Blue=E2=80=99 that Papayanis does not touch on:=20 Acid booze and ass Needles guns and grass Lots of laughs Lots of laughs Everybody=E2=80=99s saying that Hell=E2=80=99s the hippest way to go Well I don=E2=80=99t think so=20 But I=E2=80=99m going to take a look around it though Granted, the expression =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 is decidedly male, in my = mind anyway. But there is still a degree of doubt that Joni expressed = here about the hedonistic atmosphere she was living in and = =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 or sex was decidedly a part of that. The article = did point out, however, that the song =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 was = not about a list of conquests but rather that the woman in question = feels love for all of the men she is periodically involved with. But = she is unwilling to sacrifice her =E2=80=98freedom=E2=80=99 to commit to = just one. And by freedom, I think Joni meant something far more = encompassing than the freedom to have sexual relations with multiple = lovers. But what =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 describes is not the = same as what the word =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 or the phrase =E2=80=98piece = of ass=E2=80=99 implies. It would be interesting to see a follow-up of this article that = encompasses Joni=E2=80=99s later songs that explore her conflict between = the old 50s, early 60s view of romantic love involving the preservation = of female chastity until the sanctification of marriage and the eventual = rejection of that model. =E2=80=98Song for Sharon=E2=80=99 is one of = her most telling examples of this conflict =E2=80=93 =E2=80=98But the = ceremony of the bells and lace still veils this reckless fool = here=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 continuing up through =E2=80=98Don = Juan=E2=80=99s Reckless Daughter=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 =E2=80=98there is = danger and education in living out such a reckless lifestyle=E2=80=99 = =E2=80=93 notice the repetition of the word =E2=80=98reckless=E2=80=99 - = and all the way up to the conflict with Myrtle over being = =E2=80=98shacked up downtown making love without a license, same old = sacred cow=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=98Happiness is the Best Facelift=E2=80=99. = I don=E2=80=99t think she ever has resolved the conflict of her need = for connection and love with her need for autonomy, whether that = autonomy be the freedom to pursue her own career path or find a = partnership unshackled by =E2=80=98jealousy and greed=E2=80=99 or just = the right to freely express her sexuality with whomever she pleases. =20 Finally, I have to say that I did *not* write this sentence of the = article (or any of the rest of it): =20 =E2=80=9CIn some sense, I like to think of Dylan and Mitchell as popular = music analogues to modernist icons James Joyce and Virginia = Woolf.=E2=80=9D =20 Thank you to Kakki, Jerry, Lieve, Laura and everyone who has contributed = to this thread. I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts and, as I = said, as a male I cannot possibly see these issues from a = woman=E2=80=99s point of view. So it has been enlightening to see what = some of you have had to say about it. Mark in Seattle [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 14:56:53 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Is anyone else seeing Mark's msg. with all the "junk" in it? This from the very end of it: [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png] Mark, could you possibly re-send your post without what SMOE is calling an attachment? As usual, you and I share the curiosity about where this article came from, and I would like to be able to read what you discovered and your thoughts on it without having to decipher code--ha! Many thanks, Terra On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Mark wrote: > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: Lieve Reckers=20 > > Hi Laura and Jerry, > I wouldn't deny that you make valid points, but it's all a bit one = > sided, isn't=20 > it? I cannot believe for one minute (and I would be very sad if I had = > to=20 > believe) that Joni's conclusion is to totally reject the real sexual = > liberation=20 > that happened in the '60s and '70s. It was very much needed, I feel. = > Of=20 > course, it led to excesses and some unexpected negative consequences, = > but let's=20 > identify those without condemning the whole liberation, which I feel was = > a very=20 > joyous, empowering process. Of course, Joni is right, nothing is ever = > totally=20 > free, we end up getting the bill presented at the most unexpected = > moments, but=20 > still... isn't it sometimes worth it? > > ...... > I cannot imagine that Joni has lost all those ideals.=20 > I know, sometimes when I see the excesses, I feel like giving it all up = > too. =20 > Yes, sex kills. And sex sells everything. When I see the way sex is = > exploited,=20 > cheapened, vulgarised, I want to "get myself to a nunnery", to mis-quote = > > Shakespeare. But it's like saying you give up on friendship, just = > because some=20 > friends let you down. > > > Lieve, > > I agree with you here that Joni has never advocated a total rejection of = > sexual liberation. Yes, she did write =E2=80=98Sex Kills=E2=80=99 and = > made comments about =E2=80=98free love=E2=80=99 and nothing ever being = > free. You pay and pay, as she says.=20 > > But four years after the release of =E2=80=98Sex Kills=E2=80=99 she = > recorded =E2=80=98Happiness Is the Best Facelift=E2=80=99 which = > certainly references the sexual nature of a romantic relationship and = > the stigma still attached to sex out of wedlock by her mother=E2=80=99s = > generation. The same record includes the song she co-wrote with the man = > she was having a relationship at the time =E2=80=98The Crazy Cries of = > Love=E2=80=99 which is a celebration of unrestrained sexual expression. > > When I read this article, I found myself feeling more and more = > ambivalent about it. So I did a wee bit of sleuthing to find out what = > the publication was about and who the author was. I didn=E2=80=99t find = > much but I did find this about the author: =E2=80=9CA former attorney, = > Marilyn Adler Papayanis received her Ph.D. from Rutgers University and = > teaches English at Montclair State University. She was named winner of = > the 2001 Durell Prize for Scholarship.=E2=80=9D About the publication I = > found: =E2=80=9CPopular Music and Society, founded in 1971, publishes = > articles, book reviews, and audio reviews on popular music of any genre, = > time period, or geographic location. Popular Music and Society is open = > to all scholarly orientations toward popular music, including (but not = > limited to) historical, theoretical, critical, sociological, and = > cultural approaches. The terms "popular" and "society" are broadly = > defined to accommodate a wide range of articles on the subject.=E2=80=9D = > =20 > > So this is a bit different from a piece written for =E2=80=98Vanity = > Fair=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98The Rolling Stone'. It is more like a = > scholarly thesis. It even states its intention of what it will say at = > the beginning, says it and sums up what it just said at the end. Just = > like a thesis. =20 > > At first I thought, =E2=80=98Great! A serious analysis of = > Joni=E2=80=99s lyrics!=E2=80=99 And the article did make me think about = > a lot of things I would not have otherwise. The various narrative = > structures of the songs, for instance =E2=80=93 subject/object, = > passive/active =E2=80=93 was fascinating to me. =20 > > But I was also somewhat put off by the writing style. It seems almost = > like the author chose words and phrases just to showcase her vocabulary = > and knowledge of language. Perhaps that comes with the territory of = > this type of writing. Although there isn=E2=80=99t anything that = > requires a Ph. D. in English to understand, I was somewhat put off by = > this. I was also irritated by the misquoting of many of the lyrics. = > Although the discrepancies usually did not change the essential thoughts = > or meanings, it seems to me that if someone is going to write what seems = > to be a scholarly thesis on some aspect of Joni Mitchell=E2=80=99s = > lyrics, they would at least take the trouble to quote those lyrics = > accurately. > > A while ago, Michel Byrne wrote a response to my complaint about the = > line =E2=80=98mermaids live in colonies=E2=80=99 in the song = > =E2=80=98The Dawntreader=E2=80=99 that suggested the line might be a = > reference to man=E2=80=99s fantasy of a =E2=80=98harem of temptresses = > waiting for him somewhere far out at sea (maybe an implication that he = > 'collects' lovers, and that she's aware of only being the latest in a = > long line of catches). =E2=80=98 (I was going to respond to that post = > but somehow never got around to it. Sorry, Michel.) That got me to = > thinking about =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 and wondering when there = > had ever before been a song written from a woman=E2=80=99s point of view = > about unashamedly having multiple lovers and how it would have been = > received, say, only 5 years earlier. As Marilyn Adler Papayanis pointed = > out, the pen-ultimate line of the last verse of 'Little Green=E2=80=99 = > is =E2=80=98You=E2=80=99re sad and you=E2=80=99re sorry but = > *you=E2=80=99re not ashamed*=E2=80=9D. I think there is a key here as = > to what Joni=E2=80=99s lyrics about sexuality project. Like many things = > in our lives, sex is something that should be experienced responsibly. = > But it is *not* something that should be a source of shame or guilt. =20 > > Certainly disease has contributed to the demonization of sex over the = > recorded history of humans. Patriarchal systems have also played their = > part by imposing strict rules of monogamy on women that come from the = > male=E2=80=99s primitive need to preserve a pure genetic line. Various = > religious beliefs probably sprang up at least partially as a result of = > both of these attitudes. =20 > > > But what it boils down to is feeling free to fulfill a fundamental = > physical and psychological need that is present in all of us. This is = > putting aside the whole issue of the primitive instinct to reproduce and = > preserve the species which I=E2=80=99m not going to go into. I do think = > the importance of sex and sexual attractiveness has been blown up way = > out of proportion in some ways. Speaking as a gay male, I certainly = > know the consequences of buying into that. Obviously I can=E2=80=99t = > address the subject from a woman=E2=80=99s point of view. But I do = > think that sexuality, as long as it is combined with a sense of = > responsibility and awareness of its possible consequences, should be = > free for consenting adults to express in any way they choose or that = > their natures dictate. I agree with Laura, that Joni was writing, = > consciously or not, about sexual liberation for both men and women. > > That being said, there is what I think is a significant part of the song = > =E2=80=98Blue=E2=80=99 that Papayanis does not touch on:=20 > > Acid booze and ass > Needles guns and grass > Lots of laughs > Lots of laughs > > Everybody=E2=80=99s saying that > Hell=E2=80=99s the hippest way to go > Well I don=E2=80=99t think so=20 > But I=E2=80=99m going to take a look around it though > > Granted, the expression =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 is decidedly male, in my = > mind anyway. But there is still a degree of doubt that Joni expressed = > here about the hedonistic atmosphere she was living in and = > =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 or sex was decidedly a part of that. The article = > did point out, however, that the song =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 was = > not about a list of conquests but rather that the woman in question = > feels love for all of the men she is periodically involved with. But = > she is unwilling to sacrifice her =E2=80=98freedom=E2=80=99 to commit to = > just one. And by freedom, I think Joni meant something far more = > encompassing than the freedom to have sexual relations with multiple = > lovers. But what =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 describes is not the = > same as what the word =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 or the phrase =E2=80=98piece = > of ass=E2=80=99 implies. > > It would be interesting to see a follow-up of this article that = > encompasses Joni=E2=80=99s later songs that explore her conflict between = > the old 50s, early 60s view of romantic love involving the preservation = > of female chastity until the sanctification of marriage and the eventual = > rejection of that model. =E2=80=98Song for Sharon=E2=80=99 is one of = > her most telling examples of this conflict =E2=80=93 =E2=80=98But the = > ceremony of the bells and lace still veils this reckless fool = > here=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 continuing up through =E2=80=98Don = > Juan=E2=80=99s Reckless Daughter=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 =E2=80=98there is = > danger and education in living out such a reckless lifestyle=E2=80=99 = > =E2=80=93 notice the repetition of the word =E2=80=98reckless=E2=80=99 - = > and all the way up to the conflict with Myrtle over being = > =E2=80=98shacked up downtown making love without a license, same old = > sacred cow=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=98Happiness is the Best Facelift=E2=80=99. = > I don=E2=80=99t think she ever has resolved the conflict of her need = > for connection and love with her need for autonomy, whether that = > autonomy be the freedom to pursue her own career path or find a = > partnership unshackled by =E2=80=98jealousy and greed=E2=80=99 or just = > the right to freely express her sexuality with whomever she pleases. =20 > > Finally, I have to say that I did *not* write this sentence of the = > article (or any of the rest of it): > =20 > =E2=80=9CIn some sense, I like to think of Dylan and Mitchell as popular = > music analogues to modernist icons James Joyce and Virginia = > Woolf.=E2=80=9D =20 > > Thank you to Kakki, Jerry, Lieve, Laura and everyone who has contributed = > to this thread. I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts and, as I = > said, as a male I cannot possibly see these issues from a = > woman=E2=80=99s point of view. So it has been enlightening to see what = > some of you have had to say about it. > > Mark in Seattle > > [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name > of wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png] > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:02:49 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality - -----Original Message----- From: T Peckham Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:56 PM To: Mark ; JMDL Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Is anyone else seeing Mark's msg. with all the "junk" in it? This from the very end of it: [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png] Mark, could you possibly re-send your post without what SMOE is calling an attachment? As usual, you and I share the curiosity about where this article came from, and I would like to be able to read what you discovered and your thoughts on it without having to decipher code--ha! Many thanks, Terra Ick! What happened here? All I can think of is that the last Windows update I downloaded made a lot of changes to my email. I will try again. Sorry about that, Terra. Mark in Seatt.e ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:10:25 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Terra, Mark, I had the same sort of problem with my emails - and sometimes still do, when I forget to turn on the "plain text", and stay on "rich text". Mark, do try that solution, I wish you the best! By the way, I read your message just fine, because you also addressed it direct to me, and without the smoe filter it works fine. But for the sake of all other listers, I hope you can find a solution with plain text. In any case, Mark, I must say I agree with every word and nuancy of what you have written - except maybe that I was not so bothered by the academic style of the article. It was intended as an academic text, not a magazine article, so I just accepted that and enjoyed the gist of what the author was saying. But thanks for what you wrote, it was heartening to read! Lieve PS If you can't find a way to re-send your post without all the annoying "junk" in it, let me know and I will forward the good version I received from you. - ----- Original Message ---- From: T Peckham To: Mark ; JMDL Sent: Sat, 23 October, 2010 20:56:53 Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Is anyone else seeing Mark's msg. with all the "junk" in it? This from the very end of it: [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png] Mark, could you possibly re-send your post without what SMOE is calling an attachment? As usual, you and I share the curiosity about where this article came from, and I would like to be able to read what you discovered and your thoughts on it without having to decipher code--ha! Many thanks, Terra On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Mark wrote: > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: Lieve Reckers=20 > > Hi Laura and Jerry, > I wouldn't deny that you make valid points, but it's all a bit one = > sided, isn't=20 > it? I cannot believe for one minute (and I would be very sad if I had = > to=20 > believe) that Joni's conclusion is to totally reject the real sexual = > liberation=20 > that happened in the '60s and '70s. It was very much needed, I feel. = > Of=20 > course, it led to excesses and some unexpected negative consequences, = > but let's=20 > identify those without condemning the whole liberation, which I feel was = > a very=20 > joyous, empowering process. Of course, Joni is right, nothing is ever = > totally=20 > free, we end up getting the bill presented at the most unexpected = > moments, but=20 > still... isn't it sometimes worth it? > > ...... > I cannot imagine that Joni has lost all those ideals.=20 > I know, sometimes when I see the excesses, I feel like giving it all up = > too. =20 > Yes, sex kills. And sex sells everything. When I see the way sex is = > exploited,=20 > cheapened, vulgarised, I want to "get myself to a nunnery", to mis-quote = > > Shakespeare. But it's like saying you give up on friendship, just = > because some=20 > friends let you down. > > > Lieve, > > I agree with you here that Joni has never advocated a total rejection of = > sexual liberation. Yes, she did write =E2=80=98Sex Kills=E2=80=99 and = > made comments about =E2=80=98free love=E2=80=99 and nothing ever being = > free. You pay and pay, as she says.=20 > > But four years after the release of =E2=80=98Sex Kills=E2=80=99 she = > recorded =E2=80=98Happiness Is the Best Facelift=E2=80=99 which = > certainly references the sexual nature of a romantic relationship and = > the stigma still attached to sex out of wedlock by her mother=E2=80=99s = > generation. The same record includes the song she co-wrote with the man = > she was having a relationship at the time =E2=80=98The Crazy Cries of = > Love=E2=80=99 which is a celebration of unrestrained sexual expression. > > When I read this article, I found myself feeling more and more = > ambivalent about it. So I did a wee bit of sleuthing to find out what = > the publication was about and who the author was. I didn=E2=80=99t find = > much but I did find this about the author: =E2=80=9CA former attorney, = > Marilyn Adler Papayanis received her Ph.D. from Rutgers University and = > teaches English at Montclair State University. She was named winner of = > the 2001 Durell Prize for Scholarship.=E2=80=9D About the publication I = > found: =E2=80=9CPopular Music and Society, founded in 1971, publishes = > articles, book reviews, and audio reviews on popular music of any genre, = > time period, or geographic location. Popular Music and Society is open = > to all scholarly orientations toward popular music, including (but not = > limited to) historical, theoretical, critical, sociological, and = > cultural approaches. The terms "popular" and "society" are broadly = > defined to accommodate a wide range of articles on the subject.=E2=80=9D = > =20 > > So this is a bit different from a piece written for =E2=80=98Vanity = > Fair=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98The Rolling Stone'. It is more like a = > scholarly thesis. It even states its intention of what it will say at = > the beginning, says it and sums up what it just said at the end. Just = > like a thesis. =20 > > At first I thought, =E2=80=98Great! A serious analysis of = > Joni=E2=80=99s lyrics!=E2=80=99 And the article did make me think about = > a lot of things I would not have otherwise. The various narrative = > structures of the songs, for instance =E2=80=93 subject/object, = > passive/active =E2=80=93 was fascinating to me. =20 > > But I was also somewhat put off by the writing style. It seems almost = > like the author chose words and phrases just to showcase her vocabulary = > and knowledge of language. Perhaps that comes with the territory of = > this type of writing. Although there isn=E2=80=99t anything that = > requires a Ph. D. in English to understand, I was somewhat put off by = > this. I was also irritated by the misquoting of many of the lyrics. = > Although the discrepancies usually did not change the essential thoughts = > or meanings, it seems to me that if someone is going to write what seems = > to be a scholarly thesis on some aspect of Joni Mitchell=E2=80=99s = > lyrics, they would at least take the trouble to quote those lyrics = > accurately. > > A while ago, Michel Byrne wrote a response to my complaint about the = > line =E2=80=98mermaids live in colonies=E2=80=99 in the song = > =E2=80=98The Dawntreader=E2=80=99 that suggested the line might be a = > reference to man=E2=80=99s fantasy of a =E2=80=98harem of temptresses = > waiting for him somewhere far out at sea (maybe an implication that he = > 'collects' lovers, and that she's aware of only being the latest in a = > long line of catches). =E2=80=98 (I was going to respond to that post = > but somehow never got around to it. Sorry, Michel.) That got me to = > thinking about =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 and wondering when there = > had ever before been a song written from a woman=E2=80=99s point of view = > about unashamedly having multiple lovers and how it would have been = > received, say, only 5 years earlier. As Marilyn Adler Papayanis pointed = > out, the pen-ultimate line of the last verse of 'Little Green=E2=80=99 = > is =E2=80=98You=E2=80=99re sad and you=E2=80=99re sorry but = > *you=E2=80=99re not ashamed*=E2=80=9D. I think there is a key here as = > to what Joni=E2=80=99s lyrics about sexuality project. Like many things = > in our lives, sex is something that should be experienced responsibly. = > But it is *not* something that should be a source of shame or guilt. =20 > > Certainly disease has contributed to the demonization of sex over the = > recorded history of humans. Patriarchal systems have also played their = > part by imposing strict rules of monogamy on women that come from the = > male=E2=80=99s primitive need to preserve a pure genetic line. Various = > religious beliefs probably sprang up at least partially as a result of = > both of these attitudes. =20 > > > But what it boils down to is feeling free to fulfill a fundamental = > physical and psychological need that is present in all of us. This is = > putting aside the whole issue of the primitive instinct to reproduce and = > preserve the species which I=E2=80=99m not going to go into. I do think = > the importance of sex and sexual attractiveness has been blown up way = > out of proportion in some ways. Speaking as a gay male, I certainly = > know the consequences of buying into that. Obviously I can=E2=80=99t = > address the subject from a woman=E2=80=99s point of view. But I do = > think that sexuality, as long as it is combined with a sense of = > responsibility and awareness of its possible consequences, should be = > free for consenting adults to express in any way they choose or that = > their natures dictate. I agree with Laura, that Joni was writing, = > consciously or not, about sexual liberation for both men and women. > > That being said, there is what I think is a significant part of the song = > =E2=80=98Blue=E2=80=99 that Papayanis does not touch on:=20 > > Acid booze and ass > Needles guns and grass > Lots of laughs > Lots of laughs > > Everybody=E2=80=99s saying that > Hell=E2=80=99s the hippest way to go > Well I don=E2=80=99t think so=20 > But I=E2=80=99m going to take a look around it though > > Granted, the expression =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 is decidedly male, in my = > mind anyway. But there is still a degree of doubt that Joni expressed = > here about the hedonistic atmosphere she was living in and = > =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 or sex was decidedly a part of that. The article = > did point out, however, that the song =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 was = > not about a list of conquests but rather that the woman in question = > feels love for all of the men she is periodically involved with. But = > she is unwilling to sacrifice her =E2=80=98freedom=E2=80=99 to commit to = > just one. And by freedom, I think Joni meant something far more = > encompassing than the freedom to have sexual relations with multiple = > lovers. But what =E2=80=98Cactus Tree=E2=80=99 describes is not the = > same as what the word =E2=80=98ass=E2=80=99 or the phrase =E2=80=98piece = > of ass=E2=80=99 implies. > > It would be interesting to see a follow-up of this article that = > encompasses Joni=E2=80=99s later songs that explore her conflict between = > the old 50s, early 60s view of romantic love involving the preservation = > of female chastity until the sanctification of marriage and the eventual = > rejection of that model. =E2=80=98Song for Sharon=E2=80=99 is one of = > her most telling examples of this conflict =E2=80=93 =E2=80=98But the = > ceremony of the bells and lace still veils this reckless fool = > here=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 continuing up through =E2=80=98Don = > Juan=E2=80=99s Reckless Daughter=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 =E2=80=98there is = > danger and education in living out such a reckless lifestyle=E2=80=99 = > =E2=80=93 notice the repetition of the word =E2=80=98reckless=E2=80=99 - = > and all the way up to the conflict with Myrtle over being = > =E2=80=98shacked up downtown making love without a license, same old = > sacred cow=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=98Happiness is the Best Facelift=E2=80=99. = > I don=E2=80=99t think she ever has resolved the conflict of her need = > for connection and love with her need for autonomy, whether that = > autonomy be the freedom to pursue her own career path or find a = > partnership unshackled by =E2=80=98jealousy and greed=E2=80=99 or just = > the right to freely express her sexuality with whomever she pleases. =20 > > Finally, I have to say that I did *not* write this sentence of the = > article (or any of the rest of it): > =20 > =E2=80=9CIn some sense, I like to think of Dylan and Mitchell as popular = > music analogues to modernist icons James Joyce and Virginia = > Woolf.=E2=80=9D =20 > > Thank you to Kakki, Jerry, Lieve, Laura and everyone who has contributed = > to this thread. I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts and, as I = > said, as a male I cannot possibly see these issues from a = > woman=E2=80=99s point of view. So it has been enlightening to see what = > some of you have had to say about it. > > Mark in Seattle > > [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name > of wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png] > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2010 #317 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------