From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2010 #316 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, October 23 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 316 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Feeling Free and Female Sexuality [Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Feeling Free and Female Sexuality Sex Kills ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 05:06:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: RE: Feeling free and female sexuality Les posted: http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2277 From the article: "... 1966, in that liminal period of time when women were beginning to take control of their sexuality." Yo, Or was it when sexuality began to take control of women? There was less need "to take control of their sexuality " without the threat of pregnancy. Free love seemed to mean less cerebral cortex and more limbic system. Then came STD's and the need for more control of one's sexuality. "Free love" seemed to always come with a price. Paradox. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:20:35 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Great point, Laura. Joni said the very same thing in an interview herself. Speaking of her pregnancy and the birth of her daughter that she gave up to adoption she said something like, "We called it free love. What we learned was nothing is free." Jerry On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > Les posted: > > http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2277 > > > From the article: > > > "... 1966, in that liminal period of time when women were beginning to take > control of their sexuality." > > > Yo, > > Or was it when sexuality began to take control of women? There was less > need > "to take control of their sexuality " without the threat of pregnancy. > Free > love seemed to mean less cerebral cortex and more limbic system. Then > came > STD's and the need for more control of one's sexuality. "Free love" > seemed to > always come with a price. Paradox. > > Love, > Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 15:02:29 -0700 From: "Cassy" Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality now NJC From: "Laura Stanley" > Les posted: http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2277 From the article: "... 1966, in that liminal period of time when women were beginning to take control of their sexuality." <<< Or was it when sexuality began to take control of women? There was less need "to take control of their sexuality "without the threat of pregnancy. Free love seemed to mean less cerebral cortex and more limbic system. Then came STD's and the need for more control of one's sexuality. "Free love" seemed to always come with a price. Paradox. >>> I also see a correlation between a more rampant use of recreational drugs and "limbic system" sex. It wasn't about thinking things through, it was "damn this feels good" and without that threat of pregnancy that Laura points out there was no need to keep the chastity belts on. Cassy NP: Mythbusters on TV in the background. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 23:20:12 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Hi Laura and Jerry, I wouldn't deny that you make valid points, but it's all a bit one sided, isn't it?B I cannot believe for one minute (and I would be very sad if I had to believe) that Joni's conclusion is to totally reject the real sexual liberation that happened in the '60s and '70s.B It was very much needed, I feel.B Of course, it led to excesses and some unexpected negative consequences, but let's identify those without condemning the whole liberation, which I feel was a very joyous, empowering process.B Of course, Joni is right, nothing is ever totally free, we end up getting the bill pesented at the most unexpected moments, but still... isn't it sometimes worth it? If I can be a little personal for a moment, I was one of those girls who had her head filled with lyrics and decided on what I wanted from that inspiration.B IB did not slavishly accept all I heard,B but it opened a new world of thinking for me.B I had been raised in a strictly catholic (Belgian) environment, and the culture clash could not have been stronger.B Our society, as represented by school and parents,B was still more steeped in the mentality of the '50s (basically a girl had to make sure she kept herself for the wedding bed, and that was it), than the '60s or '70s.B And suddenly we heard and read about love as a freely chosen way for men and women (or rather boys and girls) to relate to each other.B It was an existentialist thing: you just had to be "moral" and make out for yourself what was right or wrong.B As long as you didn't lie or cheat or hurt anybody, then it was up to you ifB you had a relationship for one day or for keeps, whether it was exclusive or shared with several.B It was complex and full of pitfalls, but I still believe it is right as an ideal. One may or may not achieve part or all of it.B If I can quote this part from the article: "The o,rst two lines of the o,rst song, "All I Want," make this abundantly clear: "I am on a lonely road and I am traveling/traveling, traveling, traveling." But the speaker is not on a joyride, nor is she just ambling about. She is on a quest: "looking for something, what can it be?" The "I" pronoun and the active female subject dominate this song and are themselves synonymous with the quest, which, as we learn in the last stanza, is "the key to set me free" from jealousy and greed. The quest, it turns out, is for a kind of love that is liberating rather than enslaving. No "Chains" here. "All I Want" is a love song, but not a conventional one, in which lovers bind themselves to one another, declare their undying devotion and o,delity. Nor does it recount the subversion of active female desire by the desire to be desired. No, "All I Want" is about the owning of female desire and female agency. The reckless abandon sought by the speaker in the line "I want to wreck my stockings in some juke box dive" suggests a desire to thumb one's nose at propriety. The song tells us that possessiveness is the death of love. In the o,nal two lines she twice declares, "I want to make you feel free/I want to make you feel free." It was an empowering idea for a young woman back then, loving (which, by this time, almost certainly included sleeping together) without possessiveness. Empowering but difo,cult; the quest is for the means to achieve this kind of generosity." I cannot imagine that Joni has lost all those ideals.B I know, sometimes when I see the excesses, I feel like giving it all up too.B Yes, sex kills.B And sex sells everything. When I see the way sex is exploited, cheapened, vulgarised, I want to "get myself to a nunnery", to mis-quote Shakespeare.B But it's like saying you give up on friendship, just because some friends let you down. I have paid too much to get my freedom, to betray it now.B I think of the nights that I had to fight with my father, who wanted me to swear with my hand on the bible that I would be "a good girl".B I could have lied and pretended, but I fought back and argued till the morning that I was moral and deserving of respect without following his rules. (This was just a matter of principle, I wan't even "doing anything" at that time...)B I won't go into the details, but itB left a scar I carry to this day. I think of the afternoon when I was cleaning out the room where we had our youth club, me and several boys, on a Saturday morning, and we heard the church bells chime for the wedding of a girl I had been at school with.B She was sixteen or seventeen and was pregnant, so she "had to marry" her boyfriend, an older man.B Hearing those bells, I said how sorry I felt for her, and those boys, just a few years older than me, started saying it was her own fault, she should have known what she was doing.B I said: "Well they both should have known what they were doing", and they replied: "Oh no, it's the girl who has to be careful.B A boy can't help what he does, it's only natural..."B I can't remember the exact words, but I was so angry, I gave them a whole tirade of how a girl was allowed to have feelings too, how it was about time that boys shared some responsibility and learned about self control, and I remember how they stared at me as if I said things they had never thought about... Well it was the songs I had heard, from Joni and the like, that had tought me this.B I am really grateful to Les for posting this article, and feel very heartened by it. Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Gerald Notaro To: Laura Stanley Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Fri, 22 October, 2010 13:20:35 Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Great point, Laura. Joni said the very same thing in an interview herself. Speaking of her pregnancy and the birth of her daughter that she gave up to adoption she said something like, "We called it free love. What we learned was nothing is free." Jerry On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > Les posted: > > http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2277 > > > From the article: > > > "... 1966, in that liminal period of time when women were beginning to take > control of their sexuality." > > > Yo, > > Or was it when sexuality began to take control of women?B There was less > need > "to take control of their sexuality " without the threat of pregnancy. > Free > love seemed to mean less cerebral cortex and more limbic system.B Then > came > STD'sB and the need for more control of one's sexuality.B "Free love" > seemed to > always come with a price.B Paradox. > > Love, > Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:42:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Lieve wrote: I wouldn't deny that you make valid points, but it's all a bit one sided, isn't it? I cannot believe for one minute (and I would be very sad if I had to believe) that Joni's conclusion is to totally reject the real sexual liberation that happened in the '60s and '70s. Hi Lieve, Yes, what I said was one sided to make two. With the ideas in Sex Kills in addition to All I Want we have both sides now. Women's liberation definitely gained momentum in the 1960's; yet, in the quest for liberation, the early form of the pill caused women to die of breast cancer. The doctor's pill gave a deadly ill. When I think of the liberation of the '60's and '70's, this sometimes overshadows the good that you mention Lieve. Thank you for reminding me of it. There has not been a women's movement of the magnitude of that created 100 years earlier by Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton in the 1860's. They not only planted the seeds for the 1960's but created a huge wave of questioning whether or not the ideals held by men were truly better that of women. To me that questioning is usually at the heart of valid women's liberation. Talking about history... I couldn't help but notice how history repeated itself when Barack beat Hillary and became president, similar to the pattern of black men gaining the right to vote before women. I wonder what 2060 will bring for our grandchildren? Hopefully they will be appalled by the lack of rights of women and also gays described in their history books as I am when I read about the holocaust and slavery. Also, I can't help but notice that even though Joni wrote so many liberating lyrics, she doesn't present herself as a feminist. The article got me thinking of feminism, but now I wonder if it really was talking more about the general sexual revolution of the 1960's involving both men and women? Love, Laura ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2010 #316 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------