From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2010 #198 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, July 5 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 198 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Your notches, liberation doll? [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [lmontelione@netscape.net] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll? [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll? [Catherine McKay ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll? [Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Thanks Simon for raising this lyric again. I never did come to any conclusions from previous discussions. "You're notches liberation doll" still doesn't make any sense to me. I can see the connection to the notches in the bedpost idea but, what is a "liberation doll". Is that an American expression that I'm not aware of? Jill, your explanation comes a little closer to an understanding for me. Turning the tables on the female subject of the song makes sense to me and suggesting she is boosting her own ego by counting her sexual conquests. If Joni is referring to the female subject by the term, "liberation doll", it doesn't really make sense to start the sentence with, "your notches". It doesn't really make much more sense to start it with, "you're notches" either. Why would she be calling her, "notches"? Mark in Sydney NP Fourteen Black Paintings - Peter Gabriel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 07:16:29 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? I'll take a stab at it. Even though she considers herself a liberated woman, she is (you're) nothing but a sexual conquest, a notch in his belt, bedpost, dashboard, etc. Doll makes it even worse. It is a pejorative, sexist term a man uses with a woman to convey generic distance, superiority, treating her as an object of pleasure rather than a person. Jerry On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:41 AM, Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > Thanks Simon for raising this lyric again. I never did come to any > conclusions from previous discussions. "You're notches liberation doll" > still doesn't make any sense to me. I can see the connection to the notches > in the bedpost idea but, what is a "liberation doll". Is that an American > expression that I'm not aware of? > > Jill, your explanation comes a little closer to an understanding for me. > Turning the tables on the female subject of the song makes sense to me and > suggesting she is boosting her own ego by counting her sexual conquests. If > Joni is referring to the female subject by the term, "liberation doll", it > doesn't really make sense to start the sentence with, "your notches". It > doesn't really make much more sense to start it with, "you're notches" > either. Why would she be calling her, "notches"? > > Mark in Sydney > > NP Fourteen Black Paintings - Peter Gabriel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:16:53 -0400 From: lmontelione@netscape.net Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Hi all, I've always loved the song, Don't Interrupt the Sorrow. Analyzing the lyrics as poetry, laid out on paper (or a screen) in front of my eyes is as wonderful as hearing the song. It has such duality, echo, intrigue. But, although I know this is not what Joni meant in the context of her song/story, I've always heard the line we're discussing as: "Your notch is liberation, doll." Guess that's just what I needed/wanted...and received from Joni. Has anyone else every had this experience? ...a personal gift in the lyrics? Wishing you all the best on this Independence Day, Linda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 06:39:01 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Linda, this punctuation works the best for me too. With anima rising, the female spirit is asserting itself more and more, and each "notch" of the female's own becomes paradoxically another rung on the ladder of liberation. It is spoken by a "he" however, with the pejorative "doll" attached, so it could be an ironic way of the man persuading the woman to bed. Even if this is not what Joni intended, that doesn't mean the line can't be read that way. In Literary Criticism authorial intent has been considered dead for several decades now, according to the Deconstructionists. Perhaps Richard and other bona fide Lit profs on the list could weigh in on that. Dave On Jul 4, 2010, at 6:16 AM, lmontelione@netscape.net wrote: > Hi all, > > I've always loved the song, Don't Interrupt the Sorrow. Analyzing > the lyrics > as poetry, laid out on paper (or a screen) in front of my eyes is as > wonderful > as hearing the song. It has such duality, echo, intrigue. But, > although I > know this is not what Joni meant in the context of her song/story, > I've always > heard the line we're discussing as: "Your notch is liberation, doll." > > Guess that's just what I needed/wanted...and received from Joni. > > Has anyone else every had this experience? ...a personal gift in > the lyrics? > > Wishing you all the best on this Independence Day, > > Linda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:05:41 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Home Subject: Re: Speaking of DOG CHEESE........video So really, Dog Cheese was formed AFTER Joni's tour, with someone called Steve Tavaglione on keys not Russ Ferrante. Hmmmm Thanks for the vid and the interview... Much Joni Jamie Zoob On 2 July 2010 20:52, wrote: > FYI anyone and everyone > > A Dog Cheese music video w/photos. > (Michael Landau, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Tavaglione, and Larry Klein) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ygSs7a--xA > > Laura > > > > > ***************************************** > Win $50 cash card or $5,000. Ends 9/30 > Free Code: KDN185UV9JN34 > http://playdoh.promo.eprize.com/youcanwin/ > > > FREE Starbucks Sample. Hurry! Until they are gone. > http://instoresnow.walmart.com/enhancedrendercontent_ektid88056.aspx > > *Free Rooty Tooty Fresh & Fruity Breakfast from IHOP* > http://www.facebook.com/IHOP?v=app_10442206389 > You do not have to be a member of facebook to signup . > Email certificate has an expiration date of 14 days from day email sent . > Put in your name, email addy , birthdate & zip code . > Chose a IHOP in your area that you want to go to and then an email > will be sent to your email addy for you to print > - -- Jamie Zubairi Actor, Voiceover, Painter, Photographer. Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/yapqx3j Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://www.voices.com/people/jamiezooby acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 http://www.spotlight.com/interactive/cv/965489410181 agent: http://www.pelhamassociates.co.uk 01273 323 010 Website: http://www.jamiezubairi.com Randomly Related Blog: http://jamiezubairi.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 07:14:21 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Speaking of DOG CHEESE........video Dear Jamie, Steve Tavaglione is a sax player from L.A, a rather incredible one. If it reads somewhere that he played keys in the band that's probably a misprint. If you want to hear Steve's gorgeous ethereal music check out his "Silent Singing" CD. Dave PS. Lieve has booked a gig in Greenwich for Robin and me on Oct 2nd. If you (and any other Londoners) can come down for it that would be awesome. More details to follow, probably from her. On Jul 4, 2010, at 7:05 AM, Jamie Zubairi Home wrote: > So really, Dog Cheese was formed AFTER Joni's tour, with someone > called > Steve Tavaglione on keys not Russ Ferrante. Hmmmm Thanks for the vid > and the > interview... > > Much Joni > > Jamie Zoob > > On 2 July 2010 20:52, wrote: > >> FYI anyone and everyone >> >> A Dog Cheese music video w/photos. >> (Michael Landau, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Tavaglione, and Larry Klein) >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ygSs7a--xA >> >> Laura >> >> >> >> >> ***************************************** >> Win $50 cash card or $5,000. Ends 9/30 >> Free Code: KDN185UV9JN34 >> http://playdoh.promo.eprize.com/youcanwin/ >> >> >> FREE Starbucks Sample. Hurry! Until they are gone. >> http://instoresnow.walmart.com/enhancedrendercontent_ektid88056.aspx >> >> *Free Rooty Tooty Fresh & Fruity Breakfast from IHOP* >> http://www.facebook.com/IHOP?v=app_10442206389 >> You do not have to be a member of facebook to signup . >> Email certificate has an expiration date of 14 days from day email >> sent . >> Put in your name, email addy , birthdate & zip code . >> Chose a IHOP in your area that you want to go to and then an email >> will be sent to your email addy for you to print >> > > > > -- > Jamie Zubairi > Actor, Voiceover, Painter, Photographer. > > Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/yapqx3j > > Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at > http://www.voices.com/people/jamiezooby > > acting CV and showreel at > http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 > http://www.spotlight.com/interactive/cv/965489410181 > > agent: http://www.pelhamassociates.co.uk > 01273 323 010 > Website: > http://www.jamiezubairi.com > > Randomly Related Blog: > http://jamiezubairi.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:34:19 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Home Subject: Re: Speaking of DOG CHEESE........video Hi Dave! I'm planning to be there! I just have to confirm that the play I'm in isn't going on tour about the same time. The 2nd sounds like it's still early October so there might be a chance that we're still in town (I live south of the river, not too far from Greenwich (or Grinnidge, if you're local) so hopefully I'll be there to support. You sound great together by the way. Much Joni Jamie Zoob On 4 July 2010 15:14, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Dear Jamie, > > Steve Tavaglione is a sax player from L.A, a rather incredible one. If it > reads somewhere that he played keys in the band that's probably a misprint. > If you want to hear Steve's gorgeous ethereal music check out his "Silent > Singing" CD. > > Dave > > PS. Lieve has booked a gig in Greenwich for Robin and me on Oct 2nd. If you > (and any other Londoners) can come down for it that would be awesome. More > details to follow, probably from her. > > > > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 7:05 AM, Jamie Zubairi Home wrote: > > So really, Dog Cheese was formed AFTER Joni's tour, with someone called >> Steve Tavaglione on keys not Russ Ferrante. Hmmmm Thanks for the vid and >> the >> interview... >> >> Much Joni >> >> Jamie Zoob >> >> On 2 July 2010 20:52, wrote: >> >> FYI anyone and everyone >>> >>> A Dog Cheese music video w/photos. >>> (Michael Landau, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Tavaglione, and Larry Klein) >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ygSs7a--xA >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ***************************************** >>> Win $50 cash card or $5,000. Ends 9/30 >>> Free Code: KDN185UV9JN34 >>> http://playdoh.promo.eprize.com/youcanwin/ >>> >>> >>> FREE Starbucks Sample. Hurry! Until they are gone. >>> http://instoresnow.walmart.com/enhancedrendercontent_ektid88056.aspx >>> >>> *Free Rooty Tooty Fresh & Fruity Breakfast from IHOP* >>> http://www.facebook.com/IHOP?v=app_10442206389 >>> You do not have to be a member of facebook to signup . >>> Email certificate has an expiration date of 14 days from day email sent . >>> Put in your name, email addy , birthdate & zip code . >>> Chose a IHOP in your area that you want to go to and then an email >>> will be sent to your email addy for you to print >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Jamie Zubairi >> Actor, Voiceover, Painter, Photographer. >> >> Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/yapqx3j >> >> Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at >> http://www.voices.com/people/jamiezooby >> >> acting CV and showreel at >> http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 >> http://www.spotlight.com/interactive/cv/965489410181 >> >> agent: http://www.pelhamassociates.co.uk >> 01273 323 010 >> Website: >> http://www.jamiezubairi.com >> >> Randomly Related Blog: >> http://jamiezubairi.blogspot.com >> > > - -- Jamie Zubairi Actor, Voiceover, Painter, Photographer. Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/yapqx3j Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://www.voices.com/people/jamiezooby acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 http://www.spotlight.com/interactive/cv/965489410181 agent: http://www.pelhamassociates.co.uk 01273 323 010 Website: http://www.jamiezubairi.com Randomly Related Blog: http://jamiezubairi.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 07:41:33 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Speaking of DOG CHEESE........video Jamie, I guess Steve Tavaglione also plays keys so what you read is correct. He's kind of like the lesser known Michael Brecker; incredible virtuosity, great tone, uses electronic wind synths. Still alive fortunately. The great Brecker passed away last year or so. That makes Pat Metheny and Lyle Mays the only surviving members of the S&L band. On Jul 4, 2010, at 7:34 AM, Jamie Zubairi Home wrote: > Hi Dave! > > I'm planning to be there! I just have to confirm that the play I'm > in isn't going on tour about the same time. The 2nd sounds like it's > still early October so there might be a chance that we're still in > town (I live south of the river, not too far from Greenwich (or > Grinnidge, if you're local) so hopefully I'll be there to support. > You sound great together by the way. > > Much Joni > > Jamie Zoob > > On 4 July 2010 15:14, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Dear Jamie, > > Steve Tavaglione is a sax player from L.A, a rather incredible one. > If it reads somewhere that he played keys in the band that's > probably a misprint. If you want to hear Steve's gorgeous ethereal > music check out his "Silent Singing" CD. > > Dave > > PS. Lieve has booked a gig in Greenwich for Robin and me on Oct 2nd. > If you (and any other Londoners) can come down for it that would be > awesome. More details to follow, probably from her. > > > > > On Jul 4, 2010, at 7:05 AM, Jamie Zubairi Home wrote: > > So really, Dog Cheese was formed AFTER Joni's tour, with someone > called > Steve Tavaglione on keys not Russ Ferrante. Hmmmm Thanks for the vid > and the > interview... > > Much Joni > > Jamie Zoob > > On 2 July 2010 20:52, wrote: > > FYI anyone and everyone > > A Dog Cheese music video w/photos. > (Michael Landau, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Tavaglione, and Larry Klein) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ygSs7a--xA > > Laura > > > > > ***************************************** > Win $50 cash card or $5,000. Ends 9/30 > Free Code: KDN185UV9JN34 > http://playdoh.promo.eprize.com/youcanwin/ > > > FREE Starbucks Sample. Hurry! Until they are gone. > http://instoresnow.walmart.com/enhancedrendercontent_ektid88056.aspx > > *Free Rooty Tooty Fresh & Fruity Breakfast from IHOP* > http://www.facebook.com/IHOP?v=app_10442206389 > You do not have to be a member of facebook to signup . > Email certificate has an expiration date of 14 days from day email > sent . > Put in your name, email addy , birthdate & zip code . > Chose a IHOP in your area that you want to go to and then an email > will be sent to your email addy for you to print > > > > > -- > Jamie Zubairi > Actor, Voiceover, Painter, Photographer. > > Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/yapqx3j > > Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at > http://www.voices.com/people/jamiezooby > > acting CV and showreel at > http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 > http://www.spotlight.com/interactive/cv/965489410181 > > agent: http://www.pelhamassociates.co.uk > 01273 323 010 > Website: > http://www.jamiezubairi.com > > Randomly Related Blog: > http://jamiezubairi.blogspot.com > > > > > -- > Jamie Zubairi > Actor, Voiceover, Painter, Photographer. > > Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/yapqx3j > > Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at > http://www.voices.com/people/jamiezooby > > acting CV and showreel at > http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 > http://www.spotlight.com/interactive/cv/965489410181 > > agent: http://www.pelhamassociates.co.uk > 01273 323 010 > Website: > http://www.jamiezubairi.com > > Randomly Related Blog: > http://jamiezubairi.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 11:42:35 -0400 From: passscribe@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Mystery Song (NJC) Hi, all, I'm sending this e-mail to a few people who I think might be able to help identify the song (and group) you'll hear when you click on the following link. This is not a joke; the guy who sent me the link says it's one of his fave tunes but doesn't know who does it. Let me know if YOU know (or ask your kids if THEY know). Thanks, Kenny B WWW.INNERSWINE.COM/MYSTERYMP3.MP3 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:41:04 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? From the archives: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:52:03 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Covert Complicity, notches > As for "you're notches liberation doll", I really don't have a clue. " We've gone over this one before. I still say (and will go to my grave saying it unless Siquomb herself tells me personally that I am dead wrong) that the man is referring to the room full of glasses from the previous line. Those glasses are 'your notches' like a gunfighter's notches on his gun belt or notches on a bedpost. He's saying, 'You made me a drunk with your independent, uppity, competitive (unfeminine) ways. You can chalk every glass of wine I drank up to your score. They're your notches, liberation doll.' Liberation doll is a sneering & derisive name he's throwing at her. Men used to call women they were attracted to doll at one time. Just watch some of those old Humphrey Bogart movies. That's my story & I'm sticking to it! Mark in Seattle Present day Mark in Seattle says he's still sticking to it! Mark in Seattle Wishing all of us USA JMDLers a happy 4th. So far it's cool & cloudy and it's supposed to stay that way with a chance of occasional showers. Summer has yet to arrive in the Puget Sound region. - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 12:41 AM To: Cc: Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? > Thanks Simon for raising this lyric again. I never did come to any > conclusions from previous discussions. "You're notches liberation doll" > still doesn't make any sense to me. I can see the connection to the > notches in the bedpost idea but, what is a "liberation doll". Is that an > American expression that I'm not aware of? > > Jill, your explanation comes a little closer to an understanding for me. > Turning the tables on the female subject of the song makes sense to me > and suggesting she is boosting her own ego by counting her sexual > conquests. If Joni is referring to the female subject by the term, > "liberation doll", it doesn't really make sense to start the sentence > with, "your notches". It doesn't really make much more sense to start it > with, "you're notches" either. Why would she be calling her, "notches"? > > Mark in Sydney > > NP Fourteen Black Paintings - Peter Gabriel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 09:15:40 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? OK, that makes sense to be referring to the previous line - the glasses being the notches and the term, "Doll" was quite common at one time but, "Liberation doll"? I never heard Bogart or anyone else use that term. Mark in Sydney On 05/07/2010, at 2:41 AM, Mark wrote: > From the archives: > > Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:52:03 -0800 > From: "Mark or Travis" > Subject: Re: Covert Complicity, notches > >> As for "you're notches liberation doll", I really don't have a clue. > " > > We've gone over this one before. I still say (and will go to my grave > saying it unless Siquomb herself tells me personally that I am dead > wrong) that the man is referring to the room full of glasses from the > previous line. Those glasses are 'your notches' like a gunfighter's > notches on his gun belt or notches on a bedpost. He's saying, 'You > made me a drunk with your independent, uppity, competitive > (unfeminine) ways. You can chalk every glass of wine I drank up to > your score. They're your notches, liberation doll.' Liberation doll > is a sneering & derisive name he's throwing at her. Men used to call > women they were attracted to doll at one time. Just watch some of > those old Humphrey Bogart movies. > > That's my story & I'm sticking to it! > > Mark in Seattle > > > Present day Mark in Seattle says he's still sticking to it! > > Mark in Seattle > Wishing all of us USA JMDLers a happy 4th. So far it's cool & > cloudy and it's supposed to stay that way with a chance of > occasional showers. Summer has yet to arrive in the Puget Sound > region. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 12:41 AM > To: > Cc: > Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? > >> Thanks Simon for raising this lyric again. I never did come to any >> conclusions from previous discussions. "You're notches liberation >> doll" still doesn't make any sense to me. I can see the connection >> to the notches in the bedpost idea but, what is a "liberation >> doll". Is that an American expression that I'm not aware of? >> >> Jill, your explanation comes a little closer to an understanding >> for me. Turning the tables on the female subject of the song makes >> sense to me and suggesting she is boosting her own ego by counting >> her sexual conquests. If Joni is referring to the female subject >> by the term, "liberation doll", it doesn't really make sense to >> start the sentence with, "your notches". It doesn't really make >> much more sense to start it with, "you're notches" either. Why >> would she be calling her, "notches"? >> >> Mark in Sydney >> >> NP Fourteen Black Paintings - Peter Gabriel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 09:55:57 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Further to the discussion on Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, I find the whole song quite confusing. It's full of expressions or lines that I don't understand. I'm not even sure what the whole song is about. From the tone, it's obviously a man putting a woman down for some reason. It is, perhaps, Joni's most cryptic song. I am confused by almost every line: "In flames our prophet witches". OK, suspected witches were once burned at a stake but, what are "prophet witches"? and why is he saying that to her? I like Mark's explanation of the "room full of glasses" but, I still don't get why he is calling her a "liberation" doll. What is an "Ethiopian wall" and how do you chain someone with a serpent? I still don't know what "Anima" is. Is this a word in English because I've never heard it used anywhere else but in this song. There are some Christian references in there about being "snug in your Bible belt dreams", so I guess she is saying that he needs to broaden his mind. Petrified wood does tend to process tall timber down to rock maybe because it stays in one place for too long. The woman is obviously not American by the line, "We walked on the moon, you be polite". So, where is she from? Maybe the woman is Joni. She is Canadian so, she may be relaying a put down some American guy said to her. I guess he is saying that he deserves respect because he is from a country that put a man on the moon. Mark's theory about the glasses being notches makes sense to the rest of the lyrics too because there are several mentions of alcohol: "Bring that bottle kindly and I'll pad your purse", "Seventeen glasses, Rhine wine". The man in the song has become an alcoholic and he seems to be blaming her for it. OK, writing this, I sort of get the gist of the song but I'm still confused about the details. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 17:23:59 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Well no, I can't see Bogie using that term. lol! But I do think the male in the song is flinging that in the woman's face as a sarcastic insult. Maybe objectifying her too with the word 'doll'. Mark in Seattle - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 4:15 PM To: "Mark" Cc: Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? > OK, that makes sense to be referring to the previous line - the glasses > being the notches and the term, "Doll" was quite common at one time but, > "Liberation doll"? I never heard Bogart or anyone else use that term. > > Mark in Sydney > > On 05/07/2010, at 2:41 AM, Mark wrote: > >> From the archives: >> >> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:52:03 -0800 >> From: "Mark or Travis" >> Subject: Re: Covert Complicity, notches >> >>> As for "you're notches liberation doll", I really don't have a clue. >> " >> >> We've gone over this one before. I still say (and will go to my grave >> saying it unless Siquomb herself tells me personally that I am dead >> wrong) that the man is referring to the room full of glasses from the >> previous line. Those glasses are 'your notches' like a gunfighter's >> notches on his gun belt or notches on a bedpost. He's saying, 'You >> made me a drunk with your independent, uppity, competitive >> (unfeminine) ways. You can chalk every glass of wine I drank up to >> your score. They're your notches, liberation doll.' Liberation doll >> is a sneering & derisive name he's throwing at her. Men used to call >> women they were attracted to doll at one time. Just watch some of >> those old Humphrey Bogart movies. >> >> That's my story & I'm sticking to it! >> >> Mark in Seattle >> >> >> Present day Mark in Seattle says he's still sticking to it! >> >> Mark in Seattle >> Wishing all of us USA JMDLers a happy 4th. So far it's cool & cloudy >> and it's supposed to stay that way with a chance of occasional showers. >> Summer has yet to arrive in the Puget Sound region. >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" >> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 12:41 AM >> To: >> Cc: >> Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? >> >>> Thanks Simon for raising this lyric again. I never did come to any >>> conclusions from previous discussions. "You're notches liberation >>> doll" still doesn't make any sense to me. I can see the connection to >>> the notches in the bedpost idea but, what is a "liberation doll". Is >>> that an American expression that I'm not aware of? >>> >>> Jill, your explanation comes a little closer to an understanding for >>> me. Turning the tables on the female subject of the song makes sense >>> to me and suggesting she is boosting her own ego by counting her >>> sexual conquests. If Joni is referring to the female subject by the >>> term, "liberation doll", it doesn't really make sense to start the >>> sentence with, "your notches". It doesn't really make much more sense >>> to start it with, "you're notches" either. Why would she be calling >>> her, "notches"? >>> >>> Mark in Sydney >>> >>> NP Fourteen Black Paintings - Peter Gabriel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 18:05:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? To me, it's a bit like an impressionist painting. Some of the pieces make sense and others are kind of blurry. Maybe it's just me. I see blurry all the time. ;-) "Anima" may be a reference to Jungian psychology. Anima and animus are the male and female parts of a person, sort of yin/yang. Anima/animus is the Latin word for "soul." If something has "anima," it is "animated," or alive. People may be predominantly male or female, but we all have both male and female attributes within us as well. If Anima is rising in this song, then the woman is pissed off with the guy's behaviour. (Don't think that, because I use "Anima Rising" as my user name on the Joni list, I necessarily understand this stuff, but I like the feeling it evokes.) I'm sure there's a psychologist on the list who can explain this better. For "prophet witches," this conjures up for me an image of Cassandra who had the gift of prophecy and always spoke the truth, but who was never believed. She was ultimately put to death (but not by flames, so that blows my theory all to hell.) However, often a person who is a seer is perceived as being in league with the devil, or a witch, in other words. I hear these words as the narrator, the angry woman (Joni?) saying this stuff, spitting it out the way you might do if you're so angry with someone that you can find words to express your feelings but not necessarily coherent sentences. As far as "liberation doll" goes, I once knew a person who would refer to any woman who was a feminist as a "women's libber," and continued using this phrase long after the expression "women's lib" more or less disappeared. He would speak about "women's lib" or "women's libbers" in a very sarcastic tone, so, for someone to call a woman a "liberation doll" evokes more or less the same feeling. (In fact, I can feel my anima rising when I think about it and I'd love to bitch-slap the guy!) I can hear the sneer in "liberation" and "doll" is definitely a put-down, trying to trivialize or infantilize the woman because he thinks she's overstepping the boundaries imposed by a male-dominated culture and he's trying to slap her back. When he says, "We walked on the moon," it could very well be a reference to his being American and I also think of "We" as being "Men" (not women) who walked on the moon. One of the things I love about this song is the images it evokes. ________________________________ From: Mark-Leon Thorne To: Mark Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 7:55:57 PM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Further to the discussion on Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, I find the whole song quite confusing. It's full of expressions or lines that I don't understand. I'm not even sure what the whole song is about. From the tone, it's obviously a man putting a woman down for some reason. It is, perhaps, Joni's most cryptic song. I am confused by almost every line: "In flames our prophet witches". OK, suspected witches were once burned at a stake but, what are "prophet witches"? and why is he saying that to her? I like Mark's explanation of the "room full of glasses" but, I still don't get why he is calling her a "liberation" doll. What is an "Ethiopian wall" and how do you chain someone with a serpent? I still don't know what "Anima" is. Is this a word in English because I've never heard it used anywhere else but in this song. There are some Christian references in there about being "snug in your Bible belt dreams", so I guess she is saying that he needs to broaden his mind. Petrified wood does tend to process tall timber down to rock maybe because it stays in one place for too long. The woman is obviously not American by the line, "We walked on the moon, you be polite". So, where is she from? Maybe the woman is Joni. She is Canadian so, she may be relaying a put down some American guy said to her. I guess he is saying that he deserves respect because he is from a country that put a man on the moon. Mark's theory about the glasses being notches makes sense to the rest of the lyrics too because there are several mentions of alcohol: "Bring that bottle kindly and I'll pad your purse", "Seventeen glasses, Rhine wine". The man in the song has become an alcoholic and he seems to be blaming her for it. OK, writing this, I sort of get the gist of the song but I'm still confused about the details. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 11:24:52 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Thanks Catherine. That clears some more of the puzzle up for me. Especially the "liberation" bit. I hadn't thought about the term, "Women's libber". He is saying that because she doesn't drink, his drinking is a triumph of sorts for her. He is obviously sexist by calling her a women's libber but in an even more insulting way by adding, "doll". I did study Psychology and the term, "Anima" is coming back to me now. I think I slept all through the Jung lectures. It's kind of like Freud's Id, Ego and Super Ego. I see that the walking on the moon bit would be a male thing rather than an American thing now. It makes more sense. I still don't get the "prophet witches" bit though. Would that be another reference to the women's liberation? Possibly claiming that all women who were trying to liberate themselves were shot down (verbally) by males. Then comes the BIG question: who is this song about? My guess is Sam Shepherd since Joni already wrote about him as a sexist around the same time as DITS. Who did Joni know around 1975 who was a sexist alcoholic? Mark in Sydney On 05/07/2010, at 11:05 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > To me, it's a bit like an impressionist painting. Some of the pieces > make sense and others are kind of blurry. Maybe it's just me. I see > blurry all the time. ;-) > > "Anima" may be a reference to Jungian psychology. Anima and animus > are the male and female parts of a person, sort of yin/yang. Anima/ > animus is the Latin word for "soul." If something has "anima," it is > "animated," or alive. People may be predominantly male or female, > but we all have both male and female attributes within us as well. > If Anima is rising in this song, then the woman is pissed off with > the guy's behaviour. (Don't think that, because I use "Anima > Rising" as my user name on the Joni list, I necessarily understand > this stuff, but I like the feeling it evokes.) I'm sure there's a > psychologist on the list who can explain this better. > > For "prophet witches," this conjures up for me an image of Cassandra > who had the gift of prophecy and always spoke the truth, but who was > never believed. She was ultimately put to death (but not by flames, > so that blows my theory all to hell.) However, often a person who > is a seer is perceived as being in league with the devil, or a > witch, in other words. > > I hear these words as the narrator, the angry woman (Joni?) saying > this stuff, spitting it out the way you might do if you're so angry > with someone that you can find words to express your feelings but > not necessarily coherent sentences. > > As far as "liberation doll" goes, I once knew a person who would > refer to any woman who was a feminist as a "women's libber," and > continued using this phrase long after the expression "women's lib" > more or less disappeared. He would speak about "women's lib" or > "women's libbers" in a very sarcastic tone, so, for someone to call > a woman a "liberation doll" evokes more or less the same feeling. > (In fact, I can feel my anima rising when I think about it and I'd > love to bitch-slap the guy!) I can hear the sneer in "liberation" > and "doll" is definitely a put-down, trying to trivialize or > infantilize the woman because he thinks she's overstepping the > boundaries imposed by a male-dominated culture and he's trying to > slap her back. > > When he says, "We walked on the moon," it could very well be a > reference to his being American and I also think of "We" as being > "Men" (not women) who walked on the moon. > > One of the things I love about this song is the images it evokes. > > From: Mark-Leon Thorne > To: Mark > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 7:55:57 PM > Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? > > Further to the discussion on Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, I find the > whole song quite confusing. It's full of expressions or lines that I > don't understand. I'm not even sure what the whole song is about. > From the tone, it's obviously a man putting a woman down for some > reason. > > It is, perhaps, Joni's most cryptic song. I am confused by almost > every line: > > "In flames our prophet witches". OK, suspected witches were once > burned at a stake but, what are "prophet witches"? and why is he > saying that to her? > > I like Mark's explanation of the "room full of glasses" but, I still > don't get why he is calling her a "liberation" doll. > > What is an "Ethiopian wall" and how do you chain someone with a > serpent? > > I still don't know what "Anima" is. Is this a word in English > because I've never heard it used anywhere else but in this song. > > There are some Christian references in there about being "snug in > your Bible belt dreams", so I guess she is saying that he needs to > broaden his mind. > > Petrified wood does tend to process tall timber down to rock maybe > because it stays in one place for too long. > > The woman is obviously not American by the line, "We walked on the > moon, you be polite". So, where is she from? Maybe the woman is > Joni. She is Canadian so, she may be relaying a put down some > American guy said to her. I guess he is saying that he deserves > respect because he is from a country that put a man on the moon. > > Mark's theory about the glasses being notches makes sense to the > rest of the lyrics too because there are several mentions of > alcohol: "Bring that bottle kindly and I'll pad your purse", > "Seventeen glasses, Rhine wine". The man in the song has become an > alcoholic and he seems to be blaming her for it. > > OK, writing this, I sort of get the gist of the song but I'm still > confused about the details. > > Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 21:26:10 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:24 PM To: "Catherine McKay" Cc: "Mark" ; Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Catherine pretty much summed up most of my opinions about this song. Great post, Catherine. > I still don't get the "prophet witches" bit though. Would that be > another reference to the women's liberation? Possibly claiming that > all women who were trying to liberate themselves were shot down > (verbally) by males. I think this is another pathetic, sexist and sarcastic way that this drunken man is trying to put this woman 'in her place', so to speak. There were times in history when women who behaved in ways that did not conform to societal norms or who were visionaries in some way (like Joan of Arc, maybe? out of the fire like Catholic saints?) were condemned as witches and/or heretics and burned at the stake. He's disparagingly implying that she is a 'witch' and telling her that she had better get back in line or she'll get what's coming to her. We (men) walked on the moon. We're the dominant (if not superior) sex. Be polite or else. But it's an empty threat. This independent, intelligent woman is making this weak, closed-minded male feel emasculated. She has processed 'tall timber down to rock.' He is maudlin and full of self-pity (to quote Addison DeWitt from 'All About Eve' although the drunk in this song is not 'magnificent' like the drunken Margot Channing was - Jimmy, are you reading this?). He don't let up the sorrow. He lies and he cheats. He's wallowing in resentment and self-pity. It's been pointed out that there are many references to religion in this song. Maybe 'God goes up the chimney, steeples lean, winds of change *patriarchs*, snug in your Bible-belt dreams' is pointing up the sexist and patriarchal nature of some forms of Christianity. However, for this woman, 'God goes up the chimney, like childhood Santa Clause, the good slaves love the Good Book' - she just can't accept or believe it. Still not sure how 'a rebel loves a cause' fits into that. Joni has often said that she is not a feminist so maybe she is taking a bit of a jab at the feminist movement or 'cause'. Some of this is coming to me as I write it and that particular idea is just a shot in the dark. There is also reference to woman's supposed responsibility for 'original sin' in the lines 'wash my guilt of Eden, wash and balance me'. Or, in other words, acquit and absolve me (woman) of this absurd assertion. She sees the historical context for all of this crap this guy is laying on her. And she is seeing it as just that. Crap. But maybe it's that historical context that ultimately makes her feel a glimmer of sympathy for this man. The final verse puts out one last religious reference, this time to the spotless, pure, forever compassionate Mother of God: 'Seventeen glasses, Rhine wine, milk of the Madonna, clandestine' and 'It takes a heart like Mary's these days when you're man gets weak.' Ultimately, in spite of being condemned as the source of the fall from grace of the whole human race, woman is still supposed to be the pure, all-forgiving saint. Maybe this guy having been brought up and lived his whole life with this absurdly contradictory view is incapable of seeing his relationships with women in any other light. I never have been able to fathom what 'that Ethiopian wall' refers to. The serpent may be a reference to the serpent in the Garden of Eden that tempts Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. But what is 'that Ethiopian wall' supposed to be? Beats me. > > Then comes the BIG question: who is this song about? My guess is Sam > Shepherd since Joni already wrote about him as a sexist around the > same time as DITS. Who did Joni know around 1975 who was a sexist > alcoholic? For me, anyway, who the song is about (if it is about any specific person or relationship) is irrelevant. That particular mystery doesn't interest me. But the meanings hidden in these intriguing lyrics have always stimulated my brain. Even 35 years after the release of THOSL, the song still gives rise to new ideas. Also I can't imagine Jessica Lange putting up with a sexist alcoholic for all of these years. Interesting side-note. I was just checking to make sure Jessica and Sam were still together when I came across this on Wikipedia: 'When Shepard first arrived in New York, he roomed with Charlie Mingus, Jr., a friend of his from high school and son of famous jazz musician Charles Mingus.' If I knew that, I had forgotten it. It also says Shepard had a relationship with Patti Smith! And, according to Wikipedia, Jessica and Sam are still together. Mark in Seattle > Mark in Sydney > > On 05/07/2010, at 11:05 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > >> To me, it's a bit like an impressionist painting. Some of the pieces >> make sense and others are kind of blurry. Maybe it's just me. I see >> blurry all the time. ;-) >> >> "Anima" may be a reference to Jungian psychology. Anima and animus >> are the male and female parts of a person, sort of yin/yang. Anima/ >> animus is the Latin word for "soul." If something has "anima," it is >> "animated," or alive. People may be predominantly male or female, >> but we all have both male and female attributes within us as well. >> If Anima is rising in this song, then the woman is pissed off with >> the guy's behaviour. (Don't think that, because I use "Anima >> Rising" as my user name on the Joni list, I necessarily understand >> this stuff, but I like the feeling it evokes.) I'm sure there's a >> psychologist on the list who can explain this better. >> >> For "prophet witches," this conjures up for me an image of Cassandra >> who had the gift of prophecy and always spoke the truth, but who was >> never believed. She was ultimately put to death (but not by flames, >> so that blows my theory all to hell.) However, often a person who >> is a seer is perceived as being in league with the devil, or a >> witch, in other words. >> >> I hear these words as the narrator, the angry woman (Joni?) saying >> this stuff, spitting it out the way you might do if you're so angry >> with someone that you can find words to express your feelings but >> not necessarily coherent sentences. >> >> As far as "liberation doll" goes, I once knew a person who would >> refer to any woman who was a feminist as a "women's libber," and >> continued using this phrase long after the expression "women's lib" >> more or less disappeared. He would speak about "women's lib" or >> "women's libbers" in a very sarcastic tone, so, for someone to call >> a woman a "liberation doll" evokes more or less the same feeling. >> (In fact, I can feel my anima rising when I think about it and I'd >> love to bitch-slap the guy!) I can hear the sneer in "liberation" >> and "doll" is definitely a put-down, trying to trivialize or >> infantilize the woman because he thinks she's overstepping the >> boundaries imposed by a male-dominated culture and he's trying to >> slap her back. >> >> When he says, "We walked on the moon," it could very well be a >> reference to his being American and I also think of "We" as being >> "Men" (not women) who walked on the moon. >> >> One of the things I love about this song is the images it evokes. >> >> From: Mark-Leon Thorne >> To: Mark >> Cc: joni@smoe.org >> Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 7:55:57 PM >> Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? >> >> Further to the discussion on Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, I find the >> whole song quite confusing. It's full of expressions or lines that I >> don't understand. I'm not even sure what the whole song is about. >> From the tone, it's obviously a man putting a woman down for some >> reason. >> >> It is, perhaps, Joni's most cryptic song. I am confused by almost >> every line: >> >> "In flames our prophet witches". OK, suspected witches were once >> burned at a stake but, what are "prophet witches"? and why is he >> saying that to her? >> >> I like Mark's explanation of the "room full of glasses" but, I still >> don't get why he is calling her a "liberation" doll. >> >> What is an "Ethiopian wall" and how do you chain someone with a >> serpent? >> >> I still don't know what "Anima" is. Is this a word in English >> because I've never heard it used anywhere else but in this song. >> >> There are some Christian references in there about being "snug in >> your Bible belt dreams", so I guess she is saying that he needs to >> broaden his mind. >> >> Petrified wood does tend to process tall timber down to rock maybe >> because it stays in one place for too long. >> >> The woman is obviously not American by the line, "We walked on the >> moon, you be polite". So, where is she from? Maybe the woman is >> Joni. She is Canadian so, she may be relaying a put down some >> American guy said to her. I guess he is saying that he deserves >> respect because he is from a country that put a man on the moon. >> >> Mark's theory about the glasses being notches makes sense to the >> rest of the lyrics too because there are several mentions of >> alcohol: "Bring that bottle kindly and I'll pad your purse", >> "Seventeen glasses, Rhine wine". The man in the song has become an >> alcoholic and he seems to be blaming her for it. >> >> OK, writing this, I sort of get the gist of the song but I'm still >> confused about the details. >> >> Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:41:25 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? I don't know much about Christianity or the bible but, is Ethiopia where the "garden of Eden" is supposed to have been? If so, that would fit the serpent line and other Christian references. I find that trying to figure out who Joni was writing about adds another dimension to the mystery. She has dated so many interesting men and written about them. I'm not just gossip-mongering here. Honest! :-) Mark in Sydney On 05/07/2010, at 2:26 PM, Mark wrote: > From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:24 PM > To: "Catherine McKay" > Cc: "Mark" ; > Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? > > Catherine pretty much summed up most of my opinions about this > song. Great post, Catherine. > >> I still don't get the "prophet witches" bit though. Would that be >> another reference to the women's liberation? Possibly claiming that >> all women who were trying to liberate themselves were shot down >> (verbally) by males. > > I think this is another pathetic, sexist and sarcastic way that this > drunken man is trying to put this woman 'in her place', so to > speak. There were times in history when women who behaved in ways > that did not conform to societal norms or who were visionaries in > some way (like Joan of Arc, maybe? out of the fire like Catholic > saints?) were condemned as witches and/or heretics and burned at the > stake. He's disparagingly implying that she is a 'witch' and > telling her that she had better get back in line or she'll get > what's coming to her. We (men) walked on the moon. We're the > dominant (if not superior) sex. Be polite or else. > > But it's an empty threat. This independent, intelligent woman is > making this weak, closed-minded male feel emasculated. She has > processed 'tall timber down to rock.' He is maudlin and full of > self-pity (to quote Addison DeWitt from 'All About Eve' although the > drunk in this song is not 'magnificent' like the drunken Margot > Channing was - Jimmy, are you reading this?). He don't let up the > sorrow. He lies and he cheats. He's wallowing in resentment and > self-pity. > > It's been pointed out that there are many references to religion in > this song. Maybe 'God goes up the chimney, steeples lean, winds of > change *patriarchs*, snug in your Bible-belt dreams' is pointing up > the sexist and patriarchal nature of some forms of Christianity. > However, for this woman, 'God goes up the chimney, like childhood > Santa Clause, the good slaves love the Good Book' - she just can't > accept or believe it. Still not sure how 'a rebel loves a cause' > fits into that. Joni has often said that she is not a feminist so > maybe she is taking a bit of a jab at the feminist movement or > 'cause'. Some of this is coming to me as I write it and that > particular idea is just a shot in the dark. > > There is also reference to woman's supposed responsibility for > 'original sin' in the lines 'wash my guilt of Eden, wash and balance > me'. Or, in other words, acquit and absolve me (woman) of this > absurd assertion. She sees the historical context for all of this > crap this guy is laying on her. And she is seeing it as just that. > Crap. > > But maybe it's that historical context that ultimately makes her > feel a glimmer of sympathy for this man. The final verse puts out > one last religious reference, this time to the spotless, pure, > forever compassionate Mother of God: 'Seventeen glasses, Rhine wine, > milk of the Madonna, clandestine' and 'It takes a heart like Mary's > these days when you're man gets weak.' Ultimately, in spite of > being condemned as the source of the fall from grace of the whole > human race, woman is still supposed to be the pure, all-forgiving > saint. Maybe this guy having been brought up and lived his whole > life with this absurdly contradictory view is incapable of seeing > his relationships with women in any other light. > > I never have been able to fathom what 'that Ethiopian wall' refers > to. The serpent may be a reference to the serpent in the Garden of > Eden that tempts Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. But what is > 'that Ethiopian wall' supposed to be? Beats me. > >> >> Then comes the BIG question: who is this song about? My guess is Sam >> Shepherd since Joni already wrote about him as a sexist around the >> same time as DITS. Who did Joni know around 1975 who was a sexist >> alcoholic? > > For me, anyway, who the song is about (if it is about any specific > person or relationship) is irrelevant. That particular mystery > doesn't interest me. But the meanings hidden in these intriguing > lyrics have always stimulated my brain. Even 35 years after the > release of THOSL, the song still gives rise to new ideas. > > Also I can't imagine Jessica Lange putting up with a sexist > alcoholic for all of these years. > > Interesting side-note. I was just checking to make sure Jessica and > Sam were still together when I came across this on Wikipedia: > > 'When Shepard first arrived in New York, he roomed with Charlie > Mingus, Jr., a friend of his from high school and son of famous jazz > musician Charles Mingus.' > > If I knew that, I had forgotten it. It also says Shepard had a > relationship with Patti Smith! > > And, according to Wikipedia, Jessica and Sam are still together. > > Mark in Seattle > >> Mark in Sydney >> >> On 05/07/2010, at 11:05 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: >> >>> To me, it's a bit like an impressionist painting. Some of the pieces >>> make sense and others are kind of blurry. Maybe it's just me. I see >>> blurry all the time. ;-) >>> >>> "Anima" may be a reference to Jungian psychology. Anima and animus >>> are the male and female parts of a person, sort of yin/yang. Anima/ >>> animus is the Latin word for "soul." If something has "anima," it is >>> "animated," or alive. People may be predominantly male or female, >>> but we all have both male and female attributes within us as well. >>> If Anima is rising in this song, then the woman is pissed off with >>> the guy's behaviour. (Don't think that, because I use "Anima >>> Rising" as my user name on the Joni list, I necessarily understand >>> this stuff, but I like the feeling it evokes.) I'm sure there's a >>> psychologist on the list who can explain this better. >>> >>> For "prophet witches," this conjures up for me an image of Cassandra >>> who had the gift of prophecy and always spoke the truth, but who was >>> never believed. She was ultimately put to death (but not by flames, >>> so that blows my theory all to hell.) However, often a person who >>> is a seer is perceived as being in league with the devil, or a >>> witch, in other words. >>> >>> I hear these words as the narrator, the angry woman (Joni?) saying >>> this stuff, spitting it out the way you might do if you're so angry >>> with someone that you can find words to express your feelings but >>> not necessarily coherent sentences. >>> >>> As far as "liberation doll" goes, I once knew a person who would >>> refer to any woman who was a feminist as a "women's libber," and >>> continued using this phrase long after the expression "women's lib" >>> more or less disappeared. He would speak about "women's lib" or >>> "women's libbers" in a very sarcastic tone, so, for someone to call >>> a woman a "liberation doll" evokes more or less the same feeling. >>> (In fact, I can feel my anima rising when I think about it and I'd >>> love to bitch-slap the guy!) I can hear the sneer in "liberation" >>> and "doll" is definitely a put-down, trying to trivialize or >>> infantilize the woman because he thinks she's overstepping the >>> boundaries imposed by a male-dominated culture and he's trying to >>> slap her back. >>> >>> When he says, "We walked on the moon," it could very well be a >>> reference to his being American and I also think of "We" as being >>> "Men" (not women) who walked on the moon. >>> >>> One of the things I love about this song is the images it evokes. >>> >>> From: Mark-Leon Thorne >>> To: Mark >>> Cc: joni@smoe.org >>> Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 7:55:57 PM >>> Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? >>> >>> Further to the discussion on Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, I find the >>> whole song quite confusing. It's full of expressions or lines that I >>> don't understand. I'm not even sure what the whole song is about. >>> From the tone, it's obviously a man putting a woman down for some >>> reason. >>> >>> It is, perhaps, Joni's most cryptic song. I am confused by almost >>> every line: >>> >>> "In flames our prophet witches". OK, suspected witches were once >>> burned at a stake but, what are "prophet witches"? and why is he >>> saying that to her? >>> >>> I like Mark's explanation of the "room full of glasses" but, I still >>> don't get why he is calling her a "liberation" doll. >>> >>> What is an "Ethiopian wall" and how do you chain someone with a >>> serpent? >>> >>> I still don't know what "Anima" is. Is this a word in English >>> because I've never heard it used anywhere else but in this song. >>> >>> There are some Christian references in there about being "snug in >>> your Bible belt dreams", so I guess she is saying that he needs to >>> broaden his mind. >>> >>> Petrified wood does tend to process tall timber down to rock maybe >>> because it stays in one place for too long. >>> >>> The woman is obviously not American by the line, "We walked on the >>> moon, you be polite". So, where is she from? Maybe the woman is >>> Joni. She is Canadian so, she may be relaying a put down some >>> American guy said to her. I guess he is saying that he deserves >>> respect because he is from a country that put a man on the moon. >>> >>> Mark's theory about the glasses being notches makes sense to the >>> rest of the lyrics too because there are several mentions of >>> alcohol: "Bring that bottle kindly and I'll pad your purse", >>> "Seventeen glasses, Rhine wine". The man in the song has become an >>> alcoholic and he seems to be blaming her for it. >>> >>> OK, writing this, I sort of get the gist of the song but I'm still >>> confused about the details. >>> >>> Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2010 #198 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------