From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2010 #129 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, May 2 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 129 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: New article: Folked Up: Stephen Thomas on Joni Mitchell's 'jibe' against Bob Dylan [Lieve Reckers ] Re: Seattle Center Arena/For The Roses [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Joni to attend AB opening May 6 ? [Michael O ] Susan Reed [Gerald Notaro ] Fundraiser for JM.com? [Robin Adler ] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Robin Adler ] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Mags ] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Anita G ] New article: Is Bob Dylan a Phony? [TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Bob Muller ] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Anita G ] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Bob Muller ] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Mags ] Re: New article: Folked Up: Stephen Thomas on Joni Mitchell's 'jibe' against Bob Dylan [Corey Blake ] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Catherine McKay ] Turbulent Jungle [Mariana Intagliata ] Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? [Robin Adler ] Falcon Ridge Folk Festival NJC [Deb Messling ] Lady GaGafghanistan, njc [Laura Stanley ] Re: Turbulent Jungle ["Mark Scott" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 18:51:54 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? Hi Robin. I loved your idea for a webcast but, as many JMDLers come from different parts of the world, the time difference would make it impossible for everyone to join in live. The idea of a JMDL covers CD sounds fantastic. I have collected quite a few of them myself. I even have some, courtesy of Bob, from people who are no longer with us. I also have some ripped from YouTube like Danilo Monno's series of covers which I compiled and created a CD for. With his permission, I can send you those and any others. Mark in Sydney NP Alone Tonight (Disciples of Sound & Kid Lopez Remix) - Above & Beyond featuring Richard Bedford) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 09:49:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: New article: Folked Up: Stephen Thomas on Joni Mitchell's 'jibe' against Bob Dylan Corey, thank you very much for your reply! When I started reading your post, I first thought I would have to explain again what I meant about the "authentic voice" issue, but then where you write "But I guess if I really think about it", you really come to the same conclusion yourself, I think! It's like asking an opera singer to sing in his/her "real voice". Which voice is that? If not their classically trained voice, which then? It's not necessarily the voice they speak with. They would have yet another voice if they were asked to sing some jazz, etc. And in any case, as you say, I have no problem with Dylan using his voice like an actor. If you use a certain voice to sing most of your life, isn't it your true singing voice? Anyway, I can only agree with everything else you write! Also, Bob Muller, I hadn't seen your message yet when I wrote mine, because I am on digest. Otherwise I would probably not have written anything except just a brief "me too"! Ditto with Tim Norman's article (Unexpected tension lasts) in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, except for the last sentence. Even if it's factually correct that Dylan made his fortune more easily than Joni, it's not an excuse for the attack. Lieve in London - ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:25:10 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: New article: Folked Up: Stephen Thomas on Joni Mitchell's 'jibe' against Bob Dylan Lieve, I think for me part of the "fake voice" thing resonates because it makes me question if he's putting on a character or if he's honestly singing in his own voice. Or, similar, but in another aspect, it's the same uneasiness I feel when I can hear someone speaking with an affectation. There are people who speak, and you (or I can, at least) tell that they are putting on a voice, and not speaking in their normal speaking voice. This is either caused by stress or discomfort in who they are in public or a myriad other overly psychoanalyzing theories. Whatever the back story or the reason, it has the effect of someone putting on airs or being fake, and for some reason that is in some way unsettling. Sincerity and emotional honesty go a long way with me, especially in creative expression. (Probably another reason why I don't like when people imply or outright state that, as an actor, I should have an easier time lying or faking something.) But I guess if I really think about it, it shouldn't really matter. Why do I need to feel better to think that the way Bob Dylan sings, and has sung, is authentic? So little of his music is pure autobiographical (or "confessional," to use a term Joni detests) so it probably shouldn't really matter whether he's singing as himself or as a character. And even if he is singing about himself, why can't he look at himself through a character (if he indeed is putting on a character)? The same questions, I think, can be applied to Tom Waits. Another fantastic songwriter. But listen to his voice on his first album, and then compare it to later albums. It's like a total metamorphosis to me. I guess with him, though, I'm more apt to believe that he found his "true" voice after the first album, because it's not like he shifts back and forth. And maybe Bob Dylan was just experimenting with singing a different way and then returned to his "true" voice. As for the plagiarism charges in his songwriting, I too see him as coming from the "old school" of folk music where melodies and lyrics were passed down, borrowed, and evolved. Is that plagiarism in today's age of aggressively protected intellectual property? Is one way wrong and the other right? That's a big topic to explore and I don't think there's one all-encompassing answer. I'm still thinking a lot of this through, even as I write this. It's an interesting discussion and I think a valid topic to explore. I also understand Joni's desire to not be considered a folk singer, or whatever insecurity was stung by the phrasing of the interviewer's question. And it's entirely possible that what was said, what was transcribed, what was edited, and what was finally published, evolved into something very different. But in the end, I agree that Joni could've broached the topic much more tactfully and respectfully. - - -Corey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 05:35:23 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: Seattle Center Arena/For The Roses Hi Mark, Thank you so much for this--I think it's a pretty big gift! The consensus amongst Joni biographers Karen O'Brien and Sheila Weller is that "For the Roses" is definitely about James Taylor. O'Brien quotes an interview Joni gave circa 1974: "I was watching his career and I was thinking that as his woman at the time I should be able to support him . . . " because she had been thru her "small taste of success" and felt it was "ludicrous." Then she quotes the lines "In the office sits a poet . . . circulate his soul around . . ." and says "the song was actually written for that person," meaning James, or any other artist who goes from making up "tunes for yourself" and playing in small clubs to stardom and all the good and bad stuff that goes with it. Since James wasn't affiliated with Geffen's management company or his Asylum label, I would speculate that this isn't a reference to Geffen, and I don't see a ref to Crosby either. Just my take on it. I think the quality is great, especially compared to so much stuff on YouTube that people record with their cell phones (or whatever) that's horribly distorted. I only listened to a few cuts, but this sounds very clean and clear. At times I wished for the instruments to come thru a bit more, but given a choice, I'd rather hear more of Joni's vocal upfront anyway. Again, many thanks for this great find! Terra On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > Hello everyone. I thought I'd package up a little gift for you all. > > It's possible that Joni had James Taylor in mind when she was writing the > song and is relaying her thoughts to him. I think the poet in the office > might have been David > Geffen and it was David Crosby he was asking to circulate his soul > around. Any thoughts? > > Keep in mind that this is an audience recording so, the quality is not > that great. The guy who recorded it tried so hard to keep quiet. You > can hear him trying to hold back a cough. > > You can download CD 1 here: > http://rcpt.yousendit.com/863832751/f7305fd08a96e659e5804abd08bc2a2e > > You can download CD 2 here: > https://download.yousendit.com/THE2RGx4ZEt0TWxFQlE9PQ > > Mark in Sydney > > NP Cactus Tree - JM (Seattle Center Arena, 1974) > - -- Curiosity is my religion. David Ryan Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 23:02:27 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Fwd: For the Roses > From: Paul Ivice > Date: 1 May 2010 6:33:08 PM > To: mark-leon@iinet.net.au > Subject: For the Roses > > In some office sits a poet > And he trembles as he sings > And he asks some guy > To circulate his soul around > On your mark red ribbon runner > The caressing rev of motors > Finely tuned like fancy women > In thirties evening gowns > Up the charts > Off to the airport- > Your name's in the news > Everything's first class- > The lights go down- > And it's just you up there > Getting them to feel like that > > Remember the days when you used to sit > And make up your tunes for love > And pour your simple sorrow > To the soundhole and your knee > And now you're seen > On giant screens > And at parties for the press > And for people who have slices of you > From the company > They toss around your latest golden egg > Speculation-well, who's to know > If the next one in the nest > Will glitter for them so > > > I thnk For the Roses is about several people, including Joni, of > course, but I happen to think the guy pouring out his simple sorrow > to the soundhole and his knee is Jackson Browne. > The timing is right, Jackson opened for Joni i late 1971 to > mid-1972; he was a songwriter submitting songs for other established > performers to record before he began performing himself; the lyrics > are about someone just hitting it big and if you've ever heard tapes > of Jackson's early singing before his first album, when he was > taking singing lessons, the "trembles as he sings" would make you > think of that. > Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 23:11:09 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Seattle Center Arena/For The Roses Thanks Terra for your take on FTR. The quotes from Joni are pretty convincing but she doesn't actually say the song is about JT. I'm rather leaning towards Paul Ivice's theory about Jackson Browne now. He makes a good argument about the timing and about his shaky voice, etc. Mark in Sydney NP For The Roses (Travelogue version) - JM On 01/05/2010, at 8:35 PM, T Peckham wrote: > Hi Mark, > Thank you so much for this--I think it's a pretty big gift! > > The consensus amongst Joni biographers Karen O'Brien and Sheila > Weller is that "For the Roses" is definitely about James Taylor. > O'Brien quotes an interview Joni gave circa 1974: "I was watching > his career and I was thinking that as his woman at the time I should > be able to support him . . . " because she had been thru her "small > taste of success" and felt it was "ludicrous." Then she quotes the > lines "In the office sits a poet . . . circulate his soul > around . . ." and says "the song was actually written for that > person," meaning James, or any other artist who goes from making up > "tunes for yourself" and playing in small clubs to stardom and all > the good and bad stuff that goes with it. Since James wasn't > affiliated with Geffen's management company or his Asylum label, I > would speculate that this isn't a reference to Geffen, and I don't > see a ref to Crosby either. Just my take on it. > > I think the quality is great, especially compared to so much stuff > on YouTube that people record with their cell phones (or whatever) > that's horribly distorted. I only listened to a few cuts, but this > sounds very clean and clear. At times I wished for the instruments > to come thru a bit more, but given a choice, I'd rather hear more of > Joni's vocal upfront anyway. Again, many thanks for this great find! > Terra > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Mark-Leon Thorne > wrote: > Hello everyone. I thought I'd package up a little gift for you all. > > It's possible that Joni had James Taylor in mind when she was > writing the song and is relaying her thoughts to him. I think the > poet in the office might have been David > Geffen and it was David Crosby he was asking to circulate his soul > around. Any thoughts? > > Keep in mind that this is an audience recording so, the quality is not > that great. The guy who recorded it tried so hard to keep quiet. You > can hear him trying to hold back a cough. > > You can download CD 1 here: http://rcpt.yousendit.com/863832751/f7305fd08a96e659e5804abd08bc2a2e > > You can download CD 2 here: https://download.yousendit.com/THE2RGx4ZEt0TWxFQlE9PQ > > Mark in Sydney > > NP Cactus Tree - JM (Seattle Center Arena, 1974) > > > > -- > Curiosity is my religion. David Ryan Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 06:51:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? Of course, my thinking is 'the more Joni covers the better' so I'm very gung ho on the idea - and if it works for a fundraiser for JM.com so much the better. Add Dave's production skills into the mix and the talent in this group and you have the potential for a killer of a disc. Us old-timers remember a similar project from years ago where JMDLer's contributed their songs to "A Tape Of You" which was a 2-cassette collection that featured some really good stuff. Bob NP: Kings Of Convenience, "Power Of Not Knowing" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 14:06:17 +0000 From: Michael O Subject: Joni to attend AB opening May 6 ? Hi, Just read in the Globe & Mail that the Alberta Ballet's new offering, Love Lies Bleeding, based on the music of Elton John, opens this Thursday night, May 6, for a four-night run in Calgary. Grand-Maitre has big plans for it. They are hoping that Joni, Elton and Sarah McLaughlin will attend the opening. Hey, who said Calgary was a dull place ; ) Apparently this show cost AB over three times the budget alloted to FATD. There is talk of touring a double-bill of Joni-Elton. We shall see. Read the article here. (copy and paste all onto one line in your browser) http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/theatre/grand-matre-the-king-of-pop- ballet/article1552706/?cmpid=rss1 I hope Joni is feeling better. Michael in Quebec so sorry for the Gulf Coast _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail & Messenger. Get them on your phone now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724463 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 10:25:59 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Susan Reed I never read Joni mention her, but perhaps she was an influence. Susan Reed dies at 84; singer and harpist-zitherist With a repertoire that embraced Irish ballads, she was a star of the post-World War II folk music scene. By Valerie J. Nelson, Los Angeles Times May 1, 2010 Susan Reed, a singer and harpist-zitherist who was a star of the post- World War II folk music scene, died Sunday. She was 84. Reed died of natural causes at a nursing home in Greenport, N.Y., said publicist Dale Olson. By age 19, Reed was such a regular on New York's small stages that Life magazine called her "the pet of Manhattan nightclubbers" in 1945. Part of a new wave of folk-based performers, she often sang such traditional fare as "Danny Boy" and "He Moved Through the Fair." Her favorite instrument in the mid-1940s was a green and gold Irish harp, she told Life. Reed became known for her work on it and a battered zither she often favored. With a repertoire that embraced Irish ballads, she appeared on radio and television and toured the country. One stop was the Wilshire Ebell Theatre, where her balladry "captivated," The Times reported in 1952. One collaborator was poet-singer Carl Sandburg, a family friend who helped introduce Reed to folk music. She released several albums, recording such folk classics as "Black Is the Color of My True Love's Hair" and "Greensleeves." Along with a number of other folk music performers, Reed was blacklisted in the late 1950s for having "the temerity .o..o.. to actually stand for something," according to the All Music online database, and she largely faded from the limelight. Born Jan. 11, 1926, in Columbia, S.C., she was the daughter of Daniel Reed, an actor and playwright, and Isadora Bennett, a press representative for dance pioneer Martha Graham. Growing up, Reed was introduced to Irish folk music by members of Dublin's Abbey Theatre Company, who stayed with her family when they came to the United States. When she was 22, she appeared in her only feature film, 1948's "Glamour Girl," as a backwoods folk singer who comes to the big city to perform. Reed was divorced from actor James Karen. She is survived by a son, Reed Karen; and two grandchildren. valerie.nelson@latimes.com Copyright B) 2010, The Los Angeles Times Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 07:40:56 -0700 From: Robin Adler Subject: Fundraiser for JM.com? > Hi Mark, > Yes I think we will put the webcast on hold for now but we're going > to proceed with the JMDLers cover compilation. Thanks for your > interest and contribution offers. We are working with Les on this > and I'll let you know how we're going to go about it soon. > Cheers, > Robin > On May 1, 2010, at 1:51 AM, Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > >> Hi Robin. >> >> I loved your idea for a webcast but, as many JMDLers come from >> different parts of the world, the time difference would make it >> impossible for everyone to join in live. >> >> The idea of a JMDL covers CD sounds fantastic. I have collected >> quite a few of them myself. I even have some, courtesy of Bob, from >> people who are no longer with us. >> >> I also have some ripped from YouTube like Danilo Monno's series of >> covers which I compiled and created a CD for. With his permission, >> I can send you those and any others. >> >> Mark in Sydney >> >> NP Alone Tonight (Disciples of Sound & Kid Lopez Remix) - Above & >> Beyond featuring Richard Bedford) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 07:47:35 -0700 From: Robin Adler Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? I think you're right Bob. We are leaning towards the JMDL covers compilation. Les said it's been 12-14 years since the last compilation on cassette so it's about time to get into the 21st Century eh?. You have such a wonderful voice Bob how about a recording from you? Perhaps one of your favorites "Dancing Clown"? Love, Rockin' Robin On May 1, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Bob Muller wrote: > Of course, my thinking is 'the more Joni covers the better' so I'm > very gung ho on the idea - and if it works for a fundraiser for > JM.com so much the better. Add Dave's production skills into the mix > and the talent in this group and you have the potential for a killer > of a disc. > > Us old-timers remember a similar project from years ago where > JMDLer's contributed their songs to "A Tape Of You" which was a 2- > cassette collection that featured some really good stuff. > > Bob > > NP: Kings Of Convenience, "Power Of Not Knowing" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 08:07:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? one of my favourite Joni covers that Bob does is Ethiopia...man what a voice! - --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Robin Adler wrote: From: Robin Adler Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? To: "Bob Muller" Cc: "JMDL" Received: Saturday, May 1, 2010, 10:47 AM I think you're right Bob. We are leaning towards the JMDL covers compilation. Les said it's been 12-14 years since the last compilation on cassette so it's about time to get into the 21st Century eh?. You have such a wonderful voice Bob how about a recording from you? Perhaps one of your favorites "Dancing Clown"? Love, Rockin' Robin On May 1, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Bob Muller wrote: > Of course, my thinking is 'the more Joni covers the better' so I'm very gung ho on the idea - and if it works for a fundraiser for JM.com so much the better. Add Dave's production skills into the mix and the talent in this group and you have the potential for a killer of a disc. > > Us old-timers remember a similar project from years ago where JMDLer's contributed their songs to "A Tape Of You" which was a 2-cassette collection that featured some really good stuff. > > Bob > > NP: Kings Of Convenience, "Power Of Not Knowing" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 18:15:45 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? ANYTHING, Bob, but 'Dancing Clown'!!! I so it via i phone. It was terrifying. I think this is such a wonderful idea and it has my 100 % behind it, will do whatever I can. I have also had a rather crazy idea to throw into the mix. It's an idea not quite fully formed, but as I am quite interested in timing thought I'd throw it out and see if it has any energy in it for anyone else, or if it's just bonkers old me. There has been the ongoing thread about funeral music and I chimed in (!) with my interest in the Long Now foundation. Yesterday, Patrick wrote: "this discussion reminds me about the john cage piece called Organ2/ASLSP. the second part stands for "as slow as possible" and this version is being played in an east German church, approx one chord change per two years. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/06/arts/music/06chor.html" I thought, wouldn't it be interesting for those interested on JMDL to send just a favourite single chord played on their favourite instrument and send it to someone who could hold the chords and, in time, put them together and see what comes out. Or maybe, if there are too many folk, perhpas over the next few Joni Fests over the next few years, one chord is added to the one chord of other Fests over a period of, say, five or ten years. Or perhpas it could be just one sung note. Again, one techi holds the chords and adds them one at a time until we have an abstract piece. If I were technically able, I would volunteer. Perhpas, with input, I could manage it. I am very interested in what happens on an energetic level in regards to music. It may turn out to be a truly horrible sound - but, you know, I doubt it. It might be astonishingly beautiful. I would love their to be a JMDL piece of music that somehow is a joint collaboration, perhaps over a period of time. It would be even lovelier if it raised money for joni.com Love Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 10:25:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com Subject: New article: Is Bob Dylan a Phony? A new article has been added to the Library at JoniMitchell.com: Title: Is Bob Dylan a Phony? Publication: The Daily Beast Date: 2010.5.1 Read it here: http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2243 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 10:39:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? Thanks for that, Mags - you made my day sweetheart! I was really happy with that performance and have to give most of the credit to Roberto for his inspired playing and for taking the time to transcribe it. He is truly a genius and that was a magical night. And yes Anita, Dancing Clown was indeed terrifying (such a strong word!), Dave's guitar work notwithstanding. It is truly an awful, awful song. Bob NP: The Doors, "Crawling King Snake" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 19:25:43 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? Bob, I thought your version of 'Blue Motel Room' at France Joni Fest was very, very cool. You have SO many choices for your Joni cover for the Fundraiser, you lucky man! Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 11:39:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? And your recording of "I Think I Understand" MUST be on it. Bob NP: Gabriela Diaz, "The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 11:50:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? that too, as well as Catherine McKay's Woman of Heart and Mind - --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Bob Muller wrote: From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? To: "Anita G" Cc: "Mags" , "Robin Adler" , "JMDL" Received: Saturday, May 1, 2010, 2:39 PM And your recording of "I Think I Understand" MUST be on it. Bob NP: Gabriela Diaz, "The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 13:04:47 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: New article: Folked Up: Stephen Thomas on Joni Mitchell's 'jibe' against Bob Dylan Thank you, Lieve, for your response! You make great points about how the genre of music can effect the performer's voice. Joni's voice has gone through a metamorphosis, too the further she moved away from folk style of the late '60s. She didn't sing nearly as high but her phrasing and vocalizations became more elastic. To merge this conversation with the "For the Roses" conversation, one lyric phrase that always jumped out at me, and seems to have gained new relevance is this one from "Woman of Heart and Mind": You imitate the best And the rest you memorize You know the times you impress me most Are the times when you don't try - -Corey On May 1, 2010, at 2:49 AM, Lieve Reckers wrote: > Corey, thank you very much for your reply! > When I started reading your post, I first thought I would have to > explain again what I meant about the "authentic voice" issue, but > then where you write "But I guess if I really think about it", you > really come to the same conclusion yourself, I think! It's like > asking an opera singer to sing in his/her "real voice". Which voice > is that? If not their classically trained voice, which then? It's > not necessarily the voice they speak with. They would have yet > another voice if they were asked to sing some jazz, etc. And in any > case, as you say, I have no problem with Dylan using his voice like > an actor. If you use a certain voice to sing most of your life, > isn't it your true singing voice? > Anyway, I can only agree with everything else you write! > > Also, Bob Muller, I hadn't seen your message yet when I wrote mine, > because I am on digest. Otherwise I would probably not have written > anything except just a brief "me too"! > > Ditto with Tim Norman's article (Unexpected tension lasts) in the > Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, except for the last sentence. Even if it's > factually correct that Dylan made his fortune more easily than Joni, > it's not an excuse for the attack. > > Lieve in London > ---------- > Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:25:10 -0700 > From: Corey Blake > Subject: Re: New article: Folked Up: Stephen Thomas on Joni > Mitchell's 'jibe' against Bob Dylan > > Lieve, I think for me part of the "fake voice" thing resonates > because it > makes me question if he's putting on a character or if he's honestly > singing > in his own voice. Or, similar, but in another aspect, it's the same > uneasiness I feel when I can hear someone speaking with an > affectation. > There are people who speak, and you (or I can, at least) tell that > they are > putting on a voice, and not speaking in their normal speaking voice. > This is > either caused by stress or discomfort in who they are in public or a > myriad > other overly psychoanalyzing theories. Whatever the back story or the > reason, it has the effect of someone putting on airs or being fake, > and for > some reason that is in some way unsettling. Sincerity and emotional > honesty > go a long way with me, especially in creative expression. (Probably > another > reason why I don't like when people imply or outright state that, as > an > actor, I should have an easier time lying or faking something.) > > But I guess if I really think about it, it shouldn't really matter. > Why do I > need to feel better to think that the way Bob Dylan sings, and has > sung, is > authentic? So little of his music is pure autobiographical (or > "confessional," to use a term Joni detests) so it probably shouldn't > really > matter whether he's singing as himself or as a character. And even > if he is > singing about himself, why can't he look at himself through a > character (if > he indeed is putting on a character)? > > The same questions, I think, can be applied to Tom Waits. Another > fantastic > songwriter. But listen to his voice on his first album, and then > compare it > to later albums. It's like a total metamorphosis to me. I guess with > him, > though, I'm more apt to believe that he found his "true" voice after > the > first album, because it's not like he shifts back and forth. And > maybe Bob > Dylan was just experimenting with singing a different way and then > returned > to his "true" voice. > > As for the plagiarism charges in his songwriting, I too see him as > coming > from the "old school" of folk music where melodies and lyrics were > passed > down, borrowed, and evolved. Is that plagiarism in today's age of > aggressively protected intellectual property? Is one way wrong and > the other > right? That's a big topic to explore and I don't think there's one > all-encompassing answer. > > I'm still thinking a lot of this through, even as I write this. It's > an > interesting discussion and I think a valid topic to explore. I also > understand Joni's desire to not be considered a folk singer, or > whatever > insecurity was stung by the phrasing of the interviewer's question. > And it's > entirely possible that what was said, what was transcribed, what was > edited, > and what was finally published, evolved into something very > different. But > in the end, I agree that Joni could've broached the topic much more > tactfully and respectfully. > > - -Corey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 21:42:00 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? If Cat does 'Woman of Heart and Mind', bags I do the congas and have to fly out to Trono to do it! Mags, how about coming and we'll do some bvcls? That's, of course, if Catherine would have us! And Bob, thanks for recommending my 'I think I understand'. Of course, it means that everyone will have to fly in for my recording. I can't sing it without my Joni Fest team on the chorus! Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 13:55:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? I'd have yiz any time. Da bodayiz. It sounds to me like what we're really saying is... we need a Jonifest. But, it has to be accessible and affordable. Perhaps a virtual Jonifest. Wonder if that would work? More to the point, how would that work? ________________________________ From: Anita G To: Mags Cc: Bob Muller ; Robin Adler ; JMDL Sent: Sat, May 1, 2010 4:42:00 PM Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? If Cat does 'Woman of Heart and Mind', bags I do the congas and have to fly out to Trono to do it! Mags, how about coming and we'll do some bvcls? That's, of course, if Catherine would have us! And Bob, thanks for recommending my 'I think I understand'. Of course, it means that everyone will have to fly in for my recording. I can't sing it without my Joni Fest team on the chorus! Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 23:34:12 +0200 From: Mariana Intagliata Subject: Turbulent Jungle I had to paint a door outside a few days ago, a task I really didn't want to approach, but it was a perfect day to paint, so I decided to stop procastinating and play a little Joni to make things a bit more enjoyable. I chose 'Turbulent Indigo', a record I hadn't listened to for about five years, which proves it's not a favourite of mine, since I play my favourite records quite often -especially 'Hejira' which, if it were a person, it would be the love of my life! Anyway, I really enjoyed 'Turbulent Indigo' this time, even if I don't like Joni's later sound very much (but that's beginning to change for me with the beautiful 'Shine'). She's an admirable songwriter with a unique perspective on things. I really loved 'Borderline' this time, a song I had completely forgotten about (can you believe it?). Great lyrics in my opinion. And talking about lyrics, I usually don't have much trouble understanding Joni's, apart from obscure references, of course, and the obvious generational-cultural distance, but I really don't understand much of 'The Jungle Line', a song I adore in a record I enjoy all the way through. I don't know if she's just accumulating images and ideas or narrating something, I find it all very opaque, except for Rousseau and the lowcut blouse and the beer! What is she singing about, can anyone help me? Thanks in advance, Mariana ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 14:49:25 -0700 From: Robin Adler Subject: Re: Fundraiser for JM.com? Shall we call Ethiopia as Bob's submission? Can't wait to hear it! Robin On May 1, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Bob Muller wrote: > what a voice!> > > Thanks for that, Mags - you made my day sweetheart! I was really > happy with that performance and have to give most of the credit to > Roberto for his inspired playing and for taking the time to > transcribe it. He is truly a genius and that was a magical night. > > And yes Anita, Dancing Clown was indeed terrifying (such a strong > word!), Dave's guitar work notwithstanding. It is truly an awful, > awful song. > > Bob > > NP: The Doors, "Crawling King Snake" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 18:11:46 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Falcon Ridge Folk Festival NJC If anyone wants to attend this year's Falcon Ridge Folk Festival in Hillsdale, NY, I have two tickets to sell at the super-duper pre-early bird rate of $70 a piece (all-festival, no camping). I have a family wedding to go to. :-( Lineup includes John Gorka, Eliza Gilkyson, Cheryl Wheeler, Tracy Grammer, Vance Gilbert and many more. http://www.falconridgefolk.com/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- dlmessling@rcn.com http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 16:53:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Lady GaGafghanistan, njc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haHXgFU7qNI "Don't ask, don't tell, just make a Lady GaGa video." Toddling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 18:25:15 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: Turbulent Jungle - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Mariana Intagliata" Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 2:34 PM To: Subject: Turbulent Jungle > And talking about lyrics, I usually don't have much trouble > understanding Joni's, apart from obscure references, of course, and > the obvious generational-cultural distance, but I really don't > understand much of 'The Jungle Line', a song I adore in a record I > enjoy all the way through. I don't know if she's just accumulating > images and ideas or narrating something, I find it all very opaque, > except for Rousseau and the lowcut blouse and the beer! What is she > singing about, can anyone help me? > > Thanks in advance, > Mariana Hi Mariana. I don't know exactly what 'The Jungle Line' is all about. Over the years I have formed some theories and impressions. But, thinking over the lyrics today, it seems the words reveal or suggest something new every time I stop and really think about them. I looked up the painter Rousseau on Wikipedia just now because I only had a fleeting impression or memory of what he was all about. It turns out he was never anywhere in the tropics. According to Wikipedia (not the ultimate source, I know) 'His inspiration came from illustrated books and the botanical gardens in Paris, as well as tableaux of taxidermied wild animals.' Another thing about Henri Rousseau that I didn't know is that he also painted ' a concurrent output of smaller topographical images of the city and its suburbs.' So Rousseau painted the 'jungle', the city, the suburbs and wild animals. I find that interesting in regard to the themes and images in 'The Jungle Line'. There are references to both the jungle and the city in the song. I always thought the lines 'through I-bars and girders through wires and pipes/the mathematic circuits of the modern nights/through huts, through Harlem, through jails and gospel pews/through the class on Park and the trash on Vine/through Europe and the deep, deep heart of Dixie Blue/through savage progress cuts the jungle line' referred to some kind of underground network that penetrates almost everywhere. I also see this thread running through 'Edith and the Kingpin' as 'the wires in the walls' that are humming 'some mysterious song' that beats 'frantic and snowblind, romantic and snowblind' as Edith gets hooked on cocaine. The lyrics that appear later in 'The Jungle Line' about the 'poppy wreath on a soldier's tomb', 'a poppy snake in the dressing room', 'poppy poison, poppy tourniquet' are direct references to heroin. So I think the network she's referring to is the smuggling of heroin, cocaine and/or other illegal drugs. 'Drooling for a taste of something smuggled in.' She also refers to 'metal skin and ivory birds' which may suggest the smuggling of ivory. Was ivory trading illegal back in 1975? Just a thought. Just now as I typed it, I thought about the wonderful pairing of the words, 'savage progress'. Dave Blackburn sent me an email about this song when I asked him about the instrumentation of Robin and the Mutts' version of it. Dave talked about Joni's depiction of the city as a jungle and the primitive tendencies that lurk beneath the surface. Underneath the 'mathematic circuits of the modern nights' lies something dangerous and threatening. Progress is savage. The jungle and the city become one. The woman in the low-cut blouse who brings the beer is another prey for the cannibals of shuck and jive that inhabit this deceptively civilized world. Then there are those figures in loincloths carrying that huge snake across a grassy lawn with suburban houses and the city behind them on the cover of 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns'. Also Joni's liner notes that 'This record is a total work conceived graphically, musically, lyrically and accidentally - as a whole.' That always led me to believe that there are themes that 'snake' their way all the way through the entire record. Ok, that's way more of the contents of my addled brain than anybody wanted to read about. So I'll stop now. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2010 #129 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------