From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2010 #3 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 5 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 003 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Ms. Tierney [Barry Swimar ] happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) [Lieve Reckers ] Re: maiden name (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: maiden name (NJC) [Gerald Notaro ] RE: maiden name (NJC) [Susan E McNamara ] Re: maiden name (NJC) [Lieve Reckers ] Re: maiden name (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Welcome Back JoniMItchell.com [Michael Paz ] Re: happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) [Kate Johnson ] Re: happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) [Lieve Reckers ] RE: happy start of 2010 (njc) [Walt Breen ] Re: happy start of 2010 (njc) - and Jonifest 2010 [Lieve Reckers Subject: Ms. Tierney Dear Ms. Tierney, This lurker sends you his deepest gratitude for all your amazing transcriptions, and I whole-heartedly agree that change is good for the soul, even when, like some Joni songs, it is hard. Onward soulful Joni soldiers! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:10:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) Dear friends, rather late but from the heart: my very best wishes for a happy, healthy and peaceful 2010. I had a blissfully happy festive season, surrounded by loved ones. We went to Belgium (our flat by the sea), my sons offered to cook a traditional Christmas meal (looking up the recipe on the internet and finding it so easy to buy a fresh turkey on Christmas eve, which in England would have been impossible), so all I had to do was relax and sip the great cocktails they kept coming up with while the turkey was cooking, and we watched DVDs of Bonanza and Upstairs Downstairs (an indulgence to me that my sons would only make at a time like this, and in fact something I too only enjoy on a lazy day with a full stomach and a bit too much liqueur), then got some fresh air walking on the beach... The following day there was a big family gathering (35 people in all, including all surviving uncles and aunts) and I was just high on all the genuine love and happiness we felt from seeing each other. A bit like Jonifest, I guess. I just get fonder and fonder of my family as I get older and realise how fast time goes and how many have already gone... Anyway, now back in England, it is high time to send my best wishes to my dear JMDL family. And there were so many great surprises! Best of all: the return of Walt Breen! Walt!!! What a lovely surprise! You know, we had a Jonifest in SoCal last September, and I asked a couple of people about you, but nobody had any news, so what good fortune to have you back here! Really sorry for the hard times you have gone through, but I trust you are in a much better space now (mentally and physically, cause Utah really is a beautiful place) and that you will hang around for a good long time. You asked a number of questions, and you've probably had all the answers by now, but just in case this answer did not come through: Joni has lost both her parents by now. Her dad went first, and her mum more recently. The other surprise gifts I found in my JMDL digests were duly Joni related: Dave's wonderful gift of his Mutts version of Amelia, and the old Joni radio interview. Both so fresh and wonderful! Many thanks, Les and Dave! I am not a total "Joni nut" who feels the need to hear and see (and store) everything Joni related, but these 2 recordings just jumped out at me and made me feel like I was there, back at the September 2009 Jonifest listening to Robin and Dave's great band, and also back in 1969, with a younger Joni, to a time so much more optimistic and full of simple excitement. I joined the JMDL almost ten years ago, and I hope it will remain a part of my life. Big hug to all, Lieve in London PS Catherine, I just read your message about Lhasa de Sela. How tragic. I will try to honor her by listening to her music, she must have been really gifted. Such a shame to discover her this way. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:01:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: maiden name (NJC) Hi Sue! Welcome back in your maiden name! I may have mentioned this before but I'll stand on my soap box one more time. I think the Anglo-Saxon habit of a woman giving up her surname to assume the husband's, is a terrible relic of the days when a woman was just property, handed over from the father to the husband. I hope that one day it will die out just like other outdated practises, like not allowing women to vote (or the burka). It really is an Anglo-Saxon tradition, I was shocked by it when I came from Belgium to England. In Belgium, like in most other continental countries, both man and wife keep their name and cannot even change it if they wanted (unless it is rude or otherwise embarrassing). But they are allowed to use each other's name in the context of being married. So if Miss Girl marries Mr Boy, they would be known as Mr and Mrs Boy-Girl, but everybody would understand that in fact his name is Boy and her name is Girl. (I know that women "can", and increasingly do, keep their own name in marriage, but when I made that choice 25 years ago, it was considered so shocking by my in-laws that they continued to call me by the married name, and when I tried to remind them politely of the "mistake", I was cast out of their family. So I would rather have a change in the law, where a woman is no longer faced with an often difficult choice.) The question is always: what name for the children? And I think there is no perfect solution, but with some good will it can be sorted. The Spanish keep giving the children both names (i.e. Boy-Girl) but that gets complicated very fast (because one Boy-Girl will marry someone called Man-Woman, and the children will have to carry 4 names etc), so in the end you have to be practical and pick one name. I have my father's name (i.e. Reckers) but I honor my mother's name too. And I think the important thing is that I was born as Lieve Reckers and I feel that, even though there are much more melodious surnames than Reckers, I want to stay that through the rest of my life. All during the problems with my in-laws, I kept thinking that the name I had written on my school books aged 6, when I learnt to write, should be the same name that would eventually be on my gravestone. I have always wondered about Joni. I think the name Joni Mitchell is great, it sounds better than Joni Anderson, but still, I can't imagine her being comfortable wearing Chuck's cloak. I guess she considers the Mitchell tag simply her own find, her own creation, just like the change from Joan to Joni... The other, related thing that I really care a lot about, is the title given to women. I am sick and tired of being asked, when I give my name: "Is that Mrs or Miss?" If I'm in a good mood, I'll say "Whatever. Just put Ms." If I'm in a bad mood, I'll ask them: "Does it matter if I'm available on the marriage market or not? And what about you?" In the rest of Europe, every woman from the age of 20 or so, is now automatically called Mrs whether she's married or not. It's a pity that "Ms" is so difficult to pronounce without sounding pathetic. But I am really disappointed that nobody seems to even try any more to sort this out. I know that hunger and war and climate change are bigger problems, but that should not be a reason to leave this silliness in existence. Climbing off my soap box now. Lieve in London - -------- Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:05:45 -0500 From: Susan E McNamara Subject: RE: New Video in Library (...) Take care, Sue Tierney PS Oh yeah, for the new year I'm going through the process of changing back to my maiden name. I know a lot of you only know me as Sue Mc but change is good for the soul! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 06:47:02 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: maiden name (NJC) I'm bothered by the name issue and the sense of women being their husband's "property." When I got married, i guess I didn't realize that a woman "was allowed" to keep her birth name, so I took my husband's name. When I joined the Joni list, I joined in my birth name, since that's the name i associated most with my beginnings-with-Joni. I'm sure in most places that taking one's husband's surname isn't a legal name change and that going back to your birth name is relatively easy - at least, it is where I live these days. I don't think I quite realized that until I went about changing mine back. I understand that years back, a woman might have had to get her husband's *permission* to change back. I hope I'm mistaken about that, but it wouldn't surprise me! In Quebec, you are always known by your birth name. That may have been a recent (i.e., within the last 20-30 years) development and I believe it's because a lot of their laws are based on the Napoleonic, rather than the Anglo-Saxon system. I don't think you're even allowed to change your ID documents, such as driver's license or health card, to the married name, even if you choose to call yourself that among friends. I do remember my aunt being upset by that, as she had been known by her married name for years and discovered, when she went into the hospital, that they had admitted her under her birth name. I too find it odd, in a way, that Joni took Chuck's name and then kept it, but that may have been the usual thing to do back then. By the time she started getting more recognition, I guess she was already known as "Mitchell," so going back to "Anderson" might not have been a good move. I do think "Joni Anderson" sounds very nice too. It's not as if either name (Anderson or Mitchell) is unusual. And then again there's John Lennon who added Yoko Ono's name to his own and called himself John Ono Lennon. Like you, it bothers me when I'm asked, either by a human or by a computer form, what my "title" is, and that they still want you to indicate whether you're Mrs, Miss or Ms. I have tried simply not filling out that part, but many online forms won't allow you to submit them until you've filled in that field. In many ways, I think that we should just do away with titles altogether and, if we want to be formal, just call each other by our first and last names. ________________________________ From: Lieve Reckers To: jonipeople LIST Cc: sem8@cornell.edu Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 8:01:56 AM Subject: maiden name (NJC) Hi Sue! Welcome back in your maiden name! I may have mentioned this before but I'll stand on my soap box one more time. I think the Anglo-Saxon habit of a woman giving up her surname to assume the husband's, is a terrible relic of the days when a woman was just property, handed over from the father to the husband. I hope that one day it will die out just like other outdated practises, like not allowing women to vote (or the burka). It really is an Anglo-Saxon tradition, I was shocked by it when I came from Belgium to England. In Belgium, like in most other continental countries, both man and wife keep their name and cannot even change it if they wanted (unless it is rude or otherwise embarrassing). But they are allowed to use each other's name in the context of being married. So if Miss Girl marries Mr Boy, they would be known as Mr and Mrs Boy-Girl, but everybody would understand that in fact his name is Boy and her name is Girl. (I know that women "can", and increasingly do, keep their own name in marriage, but when I made that choice 25 years ago, it was considered so shocking by my in-laws that they continued to call me by the married name, and when I tried to remind them politely of the "mistake", I was cast out of their family. So I would rather have a change in the law, where a woman is no longer faced with an often difficult choice.) The question is always: what name for the children? And I think there is no perfect solution, but with some good will it can be sorted. The Spanish keep giving the children both names (i.e. Boy-Girl) but that gets complicated very fast (because one Boy-Girl will marry someone called Man-Woman, and the children will have to carry 4 names etc), so in the end you have to be practical and pick one name. I have my father's name (i.e. Reckers) but I honor my mother's name too. And I think the important thing is that I was born as Lieve Reckers and I feel that, even though there are much more melodious surnames than Reckers, I want to stay that through the rest of my life. All during the problems with my in-laws, I kept thinking that the name I had written on my school books aged 6, when I learnt to write, should be the same name that would eventually be on my gravestone. I have always wondered about Joni. I think the name Joni Mitchell is great, it sounds better than Joni Anderson, but still, I can't imagine her being comfortable wearing Chuck's cloak. I guess she considers the Mitchell tag simply her own find, her own creation, just like the change from Joan to Joni... The other, related thing that I really care a lot about, is the title given to women. I am sick and tired of being asked, when I give my name: "Is that Mrs or Miss?" If I'm in a good mood, I'll say "Whatever. Just put Ms." If I'm in a bad mood, I'll ask them: "Does it matter if I'm available on the marriage market or not? And what about you?" In the rest of Europe, every woman from the age of 20 or so, is now automatically called Mrs whether she's married or not. It's a pity that "Ms" is so difficult to pronounce without sounding pathetic. But I am really disappointed that nobody seems to even try any more to sort this out. I know that hunger and war and climate change are bigger problems, but that should not be a reason to leave this silliness in existence. Climbing off my soap box now. Lieve in London - -------- Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:05:45 -0500 From: Susan E McNamara Subject: RE: New Video in Library (...) Take care, Sue Tierney PS Oh yeah, for the new year I'm going through the process of changing back to my maiden name. I know a lot of you only know me as Sue Mc but change is good for the soul! :-) __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 09:55:10 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: maiden name (NJC) The only time it becomes a big problem here is picking kids up from daycare. I know many women who end up changing their names because it becomes such a hassle to pick up the kids when you have a different last name from theirs. Jerry On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I'm bothered by the name issue and the sense of women being their husband's > "property." > > When I got married, i guess I didn't realize that a woman "was > allowed" to keep her birth name, so I took my husband's name. When I > joined > the Joni list, I joined in my birth name, since that's the name i > associated > most with my beginnings-with-Joni. > > I'm sure in most places that taking one's > husband's surname isn't a legal name change and that going back to your > birth > name is relatively easy - at least, it is where I live these days. I don't > think I quite realized that until I went about changing mine back. I > understand that years back, a woman might have had to get her husband's > *permission* to change back. I hope I'm mistaken about that, but it > wouldn't > surprise me! > > In Quebec, you are always known by your birth name. That may > have been a recent (i.e., within the last 20-30 years) development and I > believe it's because a lot of their laws are based on the Napoleonic, > rather > than the Anglo-Saxon system. I don't think you're even allowed to change > your > ID documents, such as driver's license or health card, to the married name, > even if you choose to call yourself that among friends. I do remember my > aunt > being upset by that, as she had been known by her married name for years > and > discovered, when she went into the hospital, that they had admitted her > under > her birth name. > > I too find it odd, in a way, that Joni took Chuck's name and > then kept it, but that may have been the usual thing to do back then. By > the > time she started getting more recognition, I guess she was already known as > "Mitchell," so going back to "Anderson" might not have been a good move. I > do > think "Joni Anderson" sounds very nice too. It's not as if either name > (Anderson or Mitchell) is unusual. > > And then again there's John Lennon who > added Yoko Ono's name to his own and called himself John Ono Lennon. > > Like > you, it bothers me when I'm asked, either by a human or by a computer form, > what my "title" is, and that they still want you to indicate whether you're > Mrs, Miss or Ms. I have tried simply not filling out that part, but many > online forms won't allow you to submit them until you've filled in that > field. > In many ways, I think that we should just do away with titles altogether > and, > if we want to be formal, just call each other by our first and last names. > ________________________________ > From: Lieve Reckers > > To: jonipeople LIST > Cc: > sem8@cornell.edu > Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 8:01:56 AM > Subject: maiden name > (NJC) > > Hi Sue! > Welcome back in your maiden name! > I may have mentioned this > before but > I'll stand on my soap box one more time. I think the Anglo-Saxon > habit of a > woman giving up her surname to assume the husband's, is a terrible > relic of > the days when a woman was just property, handed over from the father > to the > husband. I hope that one day it will die out just like other outdated > practises, like not allowing women to vote (or the burka). It really is an > Anglo-Saxon tradition, I was shocked by it when I came from Belgium to > England. In Belgium, like in most other continental countries, both man > and > wife keep their name and cannot even change it if they wanted (unless it is > rude or otherwise embarrassing). But they are allowed to use each other's > name in the context of being married. So if Miss Girl marries Mr Boy, they > would be known as Mr and Mrs Boy-Girl, but everybody would understand that > in > fact his name is Boy and her name is Girl. > > (I know that women "can", and > increasingly do, keep their own name in marriage, but when I made that > choice > 25 years ago, it was considered so shocking by my in-laws that they > continued > to call me by the married name, and when I tried to remind them politely of > the "mistake", I was cast out of their family. So I would rather have a > change > in the law, where a woman is no longer faced with an often difficult > choice.) > The question is always: what name for the children? And I think there is > no > perfect solution, but with some good will it can be sorted. The Spanish > keep > giving the children both names (i.e. Boy-Girl) but that gets complicated > very > fast (because one Boy-Girl will marry someone called Man-Woman, and the > children will have to carry 4 names etc), so in the end you have to be > practical and pick one name. I have my father's name (i.e. Reckers) but I > honor my mother's name too. And I think the important thing is that I was > born as Lieve Reckers and I feel that, even though there are much more > melodious surnames than Reckers, I want to stay that through the rest of my > life. All during the problems with my in-laws, I kept thinking that the > name > I had written on my school books aged 6, when I learnt to write, should be > the > same name that would eventually be on my gravestone. > > I have always wondered > about Joni. I think the name Joni Mitchell is great, it sounds better than > Joni Anderson, but still, I can't imagine her being comfortable wearing > Chuck's cloak. I guess she considers the Mitchell tag simply her own find, > her > own creation, just like the change from Joan to Joni... > > The other, related > thing that I really care a lot about, is the title given to women. I am > sick > and tired of being asked, when I give my name: "Is that Mrs or Miss?" If > I'm > in a good mood, I'll say "Whatever. Just put Ms." If I'm in a bad mood, > I'll > ask them: "Does it matter if I'm available on the marriage market or not? > And > what about you?" In the rest of Europe, every woman from the age of 20 or > so, > is now automatically called Mrs whether she's married or not. It's a pity > that "Ms" is so difficult to pronounce without sounding pathetic. But I am > really disappointed that nobody seems to even try any more to sort this > out. > I know that hunger and war and climate change are bigger problems, but that > should not be a reason to leave this silliness in existence. > > Climbing off my > soap box now. > Lieve in London > > -------- > Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:05:45 -0500 > From: Susan E McNamara > Subject: RE: New Video in Library > (...) > Take care, Sue Tierney > > PS Oh yeah, for the new year I'm going through > the process of changing back to my maiden name. I know a lot of you only > know > me as Sue Mc but change is good for the soul! :-) > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! > Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your > favourite > sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:28:18 -0500 From: Susan E McNamara Subject: RE: maiden name (NJC) Hey Lieve, Thanks for your perspective, it is very close to mine-although I was married in a big Catholic Church over 30 years ago and that was the way things were done. The controversial issue then was that we wrote our own vows which many of the older folks were shocked at. Now it is more of an exercise in finding that person that I left behind in 1979 to become a couple. Sue Tierney was a happy go lucky dreamer and painter, and I know I can't go back to that level of naiveti, but I want to at least get a clean slate. As far as Joni goes, I think having already been a professional musician for two or three years as Joni Mitchell she just resigned herself to the fact that it was her stage name and changing it would change the momentum she was seeking to get a record deal. I don't profess to know for sure but I know for me it is going to take quite a while for people to stop calling me Sue Mc, but I'm not looking for a record deal so that's cool. :) I was thinking that if people continue to call me Sue Mc I can tell them it's a poisonous plant but actually Sue T (suttee) is a Hindu ritual where a widow throws herself on her husband's funeral pyre. Another rallying cry for the angry 70s feminists (... I am one)!! :) Take care, Sue ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue Tierney || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell From: Lieve Reckers [mailto:lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 8:02 AM To: jonipeople LIST Cc: Susan E McNamara Subject: maiden name (NJC) Hi Sue! Welcome back in your maiden name! I may have mentioned this before but I'll stand on my soap box one more time. I think the Anglo-Saxon habit of a woman giving up her surname to assume the husband's, is a terrible relic of the days when a woman was just property, handed over from the father to the husband. I hope that one day it will die out just like other outdated practises, like not allowing women to vote (or the burka). It really is an Anglo-Saxon tradition, I was shocked by it when I came from Belgium to England. In Belgium, like in most other continental countries, both man and wife keep their name and cannot even change it if they wanted (unless it is rude or otherwise embarrassing). But they are allowed to use each other's name in the context of being married. So if Miss Girl marries Mr Boy, they would be known as Mr and Mrs Boy-Girl, but everybody would understand that in fact his name is Boy and her name is Girl. (I know that women "can", and increasingly do, keep their own name in marriage, but when I made that choice 25 years ago, it was considered so shocking by my in-laws that they continued to call me by the married name, and when I tried to remind them politely of the "mistake", I was cast out of their family. So I would rather have a change in the law, where a woman is no longer faced with an often difficult choice.) The question is always: what name for the children? And I think there is no perfect solution, but with some good will it can be sorted. The Spanish keep giving the children both names (i.e. Boy-Girl) but that gets complicated very fast (because one Boy-Girl will marry someone called Man-Woman, and the children will have to carry 4 names etc), so in the end you have to be practical and pick one name. I have my father's name (i.e. Reckers) but I honor my mother's name too. And I think the important thing is that I was born as Lieve Reckers and I feel that, even though there are much more melodious surnames than Reckers, I want to stay that through the rest of my life. All during the problems with my in-laws, I kept thinking that the name I had written on my school books aged 6, when I learnt to write, should be the same name that would eventually be on my gravestone. I have always wondered about Joni. I think the name Joni Mitchell is great, it sounds better than Joni Anderson, but still, I can't imagine her being comfortable wearing Chuck's cloak. I guess she considers the Mitchell tag simply her own find, her own creation, just like the change from Joan to Joni... The other, related thing that I really care a lot about, is the title given to women. I am sick and tired of being asked, when I give my name: "Is that Mrs or Miss?" If I'm in a good mood, I'll say "Whatever. Just put Ms." If I'm in a bad mood, I'll ask them: "Does it matter if I'm available on the marriage market or not? And what about you?" In the rest of Europe, every woman from the age of 20 or so, is now automatically called Mrs whether she's married or not. It's a pity that "Ms" is so difficult to pronounce without sounding pathetic. But I am really disappointed that nobody seems to even try any more to sort this out. I know that hunger and war and climate change are bigger problems, but that should not be a reason to leave this silliness in existence. Climbing off my soap box now. Lieve in London - -------- Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:05:45 -0500 From: Susan E McNamara > Subject: RE: New Video in Library (...) Take care, Sue Tierney PS Oh yeah, for the new year I'm going through the process of changing back to my maiden name. I know a lot of you only know me as Sue Mc but change is good for the soul! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:33:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: maiden name (NJC) Hi Catherine! Thanks for the reply. These rules in Quebec, that is exactly as you say Napoleonic law - as I was used to in Belgium as well. (Good old Napoleon, he did make quite a few sensible changes, such as separation of church and state, and the introduction of decimal measurements.) Napoleonic law was strongly influenced by the Age of Reason, and for all its flaws that was a lot more modern than old Anglo-Saxon law. I could not believe my eyes or ears, when I came to England, and was told by married women that they legally did not have their own ("maiden") name any more. Even after a divorce, they had to take some action to get the maiden name back, it wasn't automatic. I really felt they had been robbed, stripped of their identity. I'm sorry to hear of your aunt's upset when she "had" to use her maiden name in hospital, but you know, that is like some prisoners (or animals) who get so used to their cell (or cage) that they fear the wide open world. It's not an excuse for locking them up to begin with. I agree it would be nice to just be known by our names. But I can see the use, possibly, of some indication whether a person is male or female. No more than that is needed, I think. No need to indicate sexual preference, or availability, or age, or political affiliation. Maybe next time someone asks me whether it's Mrs or Miss, I'll ask whether he or she is carnivore, vegetarian or vegan... Problem is, I don't want to take it out on a poor singular person who may wonder why I'm picking on him or her. I just want to change the world! Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Catherine McKay To: Lieve Reckers ; jonipeople LIST Cc: sem8@cornell.edu Sent: Tue, 5 January, 2010 14:47:02 Subject: Re: maiden name (NJC) I'm bothered by the name issue and the sense of women being their husband's "property." When I got married, i guess I didn't realize that a woman "was allowed" to keep her birth name, so I took my husband's name. When I joined the Joni list, I joined in my birth name, since that's the name i associated most with my beginnings-with-Joni. I'm sure in most places that taking one's husband's surname isn't a legal name change and that going back to your birth name is relatively easy - at least, it is where I live these days. I don't think I quite realized that until I went about changing mine back. I understand that years back, a woman might have had to get her husband's *permission* to change back. I hope I'm mistaken about that, but it wouldn't surprise me! In Quebec, you are always known by your birth name. That may have been a recent (i.e., within the last 20-30 years) development and I believe it's because a lot of their laws are based on the Napoleonic, rather than the Anglo-Saxon system. I don't think you're even allowed to change your ID documents, such as driver's license or health card, to the married name, even if you choose to call yourself that among friends. I do remember my aunt being upset by that, as she had been known by her married name for years and discovered, when she went into the hospital, that they had admitted her under her birth name. I too find it odd, in a way, that Joni took Chuck's name and then kept it, but that may have been the usual thing to do back then. By the time she started getting more recognition, I guess she was already known as "Mitchell," so going back to "Anderson" might not have been a good move. I do think "Joni Anderson" sounds very nice too. It's not as if either name (Anderson or Mitchell) is unusual. And then again there's John Lennon who added Yoko Ono's name to his own and called himself John Ono Lennon. Like you, it bothers me when I'm asked, either by a human or by a computer form, what my "title" is, and that they still want you to indicate whether you're Mrs, Miss or Ms. I have tried simply not filling out that part, but many online forms won't allow you to submit them until you've filled in that field. In many ways, I think that we should just do away with titles altogether and, if we want to be formal, just call each other by our first and last names. ________________________________ From: Lieve Reckers To: jonipeople LIST Cc: sem8@cornell.edu Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 8:01:56 AM Subject: maiden name (NJC) Hi Sue! Welcome back in your maiden name! I may have mentioned this before but I'll stand on my soap box one more time. I think the Anglo-Saxon habit of a woman giving up her surname to assume the husband's, is a terrible relic of the days when a woman was just property, handed over from the father to the husband. I hope that one day it will die out just like other outdated practises, like not allowing women to vote (or the burka). It really is an Anglo-Saxon tradition, I was shocked by it when I came from Belgium to England. In Belgium, like in most other continental countries, both man and wife keep their name and cannot even change it if they wanted (unless it is rude or otherwise embarrassing). But they are allowed to use each other's name in the context of being married. So if Miss Girl marries Mr Boy, they would be known as Mr and Mrs Boy-Girl, but everybody would understand that in fact his name is Boy and her name is Girl. (I know that women "can", and increasingly do, keep their own name in marriage, but when I made that choice 25 years ago, it was considered so shocking by my in-laws that they continued to call me by the married name, and when I tried to remind them politely of the "mistake", I was cast out of their family. So I would rather have a change in the law, where a woman is no longer faced with an often difficult choice.) The question is always: what name for the children? And I think there is no perfect solution, but with some good will it can be sorted. The Spanish keep giving the children both names (i.e. Boy-Girl) but that gets complicated very fast (because one Boy-Girl will marry someone called Man-Woman, and the children will have to carry 4 names etc), so in the end you have to be practical and pick one name. I have my father's name (i.e. Reckers) but I honor my mother's name too. And I think the important thing is that I was born as Lieve Reckers and I feel that, even though there are much more melodious surnames than Reckers, I want to stay that through the rest of my life. All during the problems with my in-laws, I kept thinking that the name I had written on my school books aged 6, when I learnt to write, should be the same name that would eventually be on my gravestone. I have always wondered about Joni. I think the name Joni Mitchell is great, it sounds better than Joni Anderson, but still, I can't imagine her being comfortable wearing Chuck's cloak. I guess she considers the Mitchell tag simply her own find, her own creation, just like the change from Joan to Joni... The other, related thing that I really care a lot about, is the title given to women. I am sick and tired of being asked, when I give my name: "Is that Mrs or Miss?" If I'm in a good mood, I'll say "Whatever. Just put Ms." If I'm in a bad mood, I'll ask them: "Does it matter if I'm available on the marriage market or not? And what about you?" In the rest of Europe, every woman from the age of 20 or so, is now automatically called Mrs whether she's married or not. It's a pity that "Ms" is so difficult to pronounce without sounding pathetic. But I am really disappointed that nobody seems to even try any more to sort this out. I know that hunger and war and climate change are bigger problems, but that should not be a reason to leave this silliness in existence. Climbing off my soap box now. Lieve in London - -------- Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:05:45 -0500 From: Susan E McNamara Subject: RE: New Video in Library (...) Take care, Sue Tierney PS Oh yeah, for the new year I'm going through the process of changing back to my maiden name. I know a lot of you only know me as Sue Mc but change is good for the soul! :-) ________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift?Give the gift of Flickr! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 08:08:35 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: maiden name (NJC) The way they deal with that here is that each child (whether it's daycare or school) has a form filed in the office that you're supposed to update at least once a year. This form includes names of parents/caregivers as well as names and relationship to the child (even if the relationship is "family friend") of those who are given permission to pick the child up in an emergency. They wouldn't release the child to someone's care without having checked first. I do remember going through the years of being identified as "Sarah's Mum" or "Matthew's Mum" though more than by my own name! ________________________________ From: Gerald Notaro To: Catherine McKay ; Joni List Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 9:55:10 AM Subject: Re: maiden name (NJC) The only time it becomes a big problem here is picking kids up from daycare. I know many women who end up changing their names because it becomes such a hassle to pick up the kids when you have a different last name from theirs. Jerry > __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer. 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:36:11 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Welcome Back JoniMItchell.com HappY New Year ALL! Glad to see that the best websites on the planet are up and jamming again. Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday. back on the road on thursday in Tarrytown, NY, Washington DC, NYC, Chapel Hill, NC, Nashville (for 3 days), Kerrville, Texas (Hi Craig and Laura and PATTY!!!), and then Morristown NJ. Hope to see some folks out there. Also New Yorkers check out this upcoming John Kelly show. Luv Paz John invited you to "JOHN KELLY at GALAPAGOS" on Monday, January 18 at 8:00pm. Event: JOHN KELLY at GALAPAGOS "10 new songs drawn from Caravaggio, wanderlust, and the grip of beauty by JOHN KELLY & CAROL LIPNIK, plus covers of Charles Aznavour, Joni Mitchell, Lou Reed, Kurt Weill & Brian Wilson" What: Performance Start Time: Monday, January 18 at 8:00pm End Time: Monday, January 18 at 9:30pm Where: GALAPAGOS ART SPACE http://www.facebook.com/l/6d2d0;www.galapagosartspace.com $15 Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:32:48 -0600 From: Kate Johnson Subject: Re: happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) On 5-Jan-10, at 6:10 AM, Lieve Reckers wrote: > Joni has lost both her parents by > now. Her dad went first, and her mum more recently. Actually Joni's mom died (jmdl sent flowers) and her dad is still living in a retirement/nursing home, as far as I know. Kate http://goldengrainfarm.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:16:09 -0500 From: Rose M Joy Subject: Re: Welcome Back JoniMItchell.com njc Hey Mikey! Happy New Year! And when will you be in Morristown, NJ?! Rosie Sent from my iPhone On Jan 5, 2010, at 12:36 PM, Michael Paz wrote: > HappY New Year ALL! > Glad to see that the best websites on the planet are up and jamming > again. Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday. back on the road on > thursday in Tarrytown, NY, Washington DC, NYC, Chapel Hill, NC, > Nashville (for 3 days), Kerrville, Texas (Hi Craig and Laura and > PATTY!!!), and then Morristown NJ. Hope to see some folks out there. > Also New Yorkers check out this upcoming John Kelly show. > > Luv > > Paz > > John invited you to "JOHN KELLY at GALAPAGOS" on Monday, January 18 at > 8:00pm. > > Event: JOHN KELLY at GALAPAGOS > "10 new songs drawn from Caravaggio, wanderlust, and the grip > of beauty by JOHN KELLY & CAROL LIPNIK, plus covers of Charles > Aznavour, Joni Mitchell, Lou Reed, Kurt Weill & Brian Wilson" > What: Performance > Start Time: Monday, January 18 at 8:00pm > End Time: Monday, January 18 at 9:30pm > Where: GALAPAGOS ART SPACE http://www.facebook.com/l/6d2d0;www.galapagosartspace.com > $15 > > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > Tour Manager > Preservation Hall Jazz Band > http://www.preservationhall.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 19:31:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) Oops - sorry for getting this so badly wrong, Kate! Glad to hear Mr Anderson is still around, and I wish him many more years. Lieve ________________________________ From: Kate Johnson To: Lieve Reckers Cc: jonipeople LIST ; littlebreen@live.com; Catherine ; Dave Blackburn Sent: Tue, 5 January, 2010 17:32:48 Subject: Re: happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) On 5-Jan-10, at 6:10 AM, Lieve Reckers wrote: Joni has lost both her parents by >now. Her dad went first, and her mum more recently. Actually Joni's mom died (jmdl sent flowers) and her dad is still living in a retirement/nursing home, as far as I know. Kate http://goldengrainfarm.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:13:41 -0500 From: Subject: NJC sad news - Lhasa De Sela I was really shocked to hear on NPR yesterday "Next - remembering Canadian singer Lhasa." So sad to hear of her death at only 37. Michele and I had the pleasure of seeing her perform at the Edmonton Folk Festival in 2004, and early - WAY early - on Monday morning the three of us riding the shuttle from the fest hotel to the airport, where she was on the same flight as us back to LA. A very talented, beautiful person. RIP. *************************************************** Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA tinkersown@ca.rr.com "Folk Alliance Region - West" www.far-west.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:00:04 -0700 From: Walt Breen Subject: RE: happy start of 2010 (njc) Lieve, so good to hear from you, and thanks fior the welcome back! I've had some time here in quiet, beautiful semi-rural Utah to decompress, and my physical health is great. Even in the snow, I walk a lot.(Yesterday, 6 or 7 miles) My only sadness at this point is that my beloved Marineta, whom I described at length in my comeback posting, had a massive seizure and apparent stroke on the 29th. This has happened before, and she's come back, but at this point she's totally blind and struggles to walk. She still reponds to my voice and loves to snuggle (and eat!) so I haven't given up hope. Other than that concern, I'm ejoying looking out my windows and seeing horses, cows, chickens and ducks. And mountains! I'm amused by how shocked people are at all the walking I do, often with a full backpack. Most of Utah is not designed for pedestrians. People are so polite and genial here, kind of like Minnesota. And although most people don't think of a gay man moving from San Fran to Salt Lake as a strategically sound move, I was out and self-assured in Providence, RI long before I moved to SF, so it's no big thing. Even the Mormon Church seems to be backing away from it's most extremely homophobic stances. By the spring, I'll probably have to break down and buy a car. Haven't owned one since 1974. But if I want to explore the wonders of Salt Lake City (I'm about 15-20 miles north of there), or just get out of Bountiful, I'll just have to go that way. As you mentioned a Jonifest just this past September, I'd headed to the site to find out about about the next one, if such is planned. Hope so -- miss seeing all you guys. Hugs, Walt Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:10:01 +0000 From: lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk Subject: happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) To: joni@smoe.org CC: littlebreen@live.com; anima_rising@yahoo.ca; beatntrack@sbcglobal.net <<...Best of all: the return of Walt Breen! Walt!!! What a lovely surprise! You know, we had a Jonifest in SoCal last September, and I asked a couple of people about you, but nobody had any news, so what good fortune to have you back here! Really sorry for the hard times you have gone through, but I trust you are in a much better space now (mentally and physically, cause Utah really is a beautiful place) and that you will hang around for a good long time. You asked a number of questions, and you've probably had all the answers by now, but just in case this answer did not come through: Joni has lost both her parents by now. Her dad went first, and her mum more recently.>> _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 22:56:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: happy start of 2010 (njc) - and Jonifest 2010 Walt, I am so sorry to hear about your sweet dog's condition. I'm sorry I did not mention her in my post, but I loved reading about her. I so hope she will get better. She's obviously a very intelligent and loving animal, I can imagine how difficult this must be for you. You ask about Jonifests. Well I would like to reply by asking about it too. Mark in Australia was trying to organise one in March in Australia. Mark, I was one of the people signed up for that, but by now I really need to know for sure what is happening, because otherwise it will be too late to book a flight for an affordable price. I have got the impression that most people who were interested, for one reason or another (money or time or both) cannot make it any more. I think you had a great set-up for a good price with Kangaroo Island, but I understand that venue is no longer available. Please can you give us an urgent update, because the date you had set is only 2 months away, and I cannot see how it could all still be worked out. Michael Paz has also mentioned organising a 10th anniversary "Pazfest" in New Orleans this year. It's possible that more people will be able to afford the money and time to get to NO, compared to Australia. But again, could I ask Paz if there are any more details? So Walt, I do hope we will meet again soon, at one Jonifest or another! Big hug to you and Marineta, Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Walt Breen To: lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk; Jonilist Digest Sent: Tue, 5 January, 2010 22:00:04 Subject: RE: happy start of 2010 (njc) Lieve, so good to hear from you, and thanks fior the welcome back! I've had some time here in quiet, beautiful semi-rural Utah to decompress, and my physical health is great. Even in the snow, I walk a lot.(Yesterday, 6 or 7 miles) My only sadness at this point is that my beloved Marineta, whom I described at length in my comeback posting, had a massive seizure and apparent stroke on the 29th. This has happened before, and she's come back, but at this point she's totally blind and struggles to walk. She still reponds to my voice and loves to snuggle (and eat!) so I haven't given up hope. Other than that concern, I'm ejoying looking out my windows and seeing horses, cows, chickens and ducks. And mountains! I'm amused by how shocked people are at all the walking I do, often with a full backpack. Most of Utah is not designed for pedestrians. People are so polite and genial here, kind of like Minnesota. And although most people don't think of a gay man moving from San Fran to Salt Lake as a strategically sound move, I was out and self-assured in Providence, RI long before I moved to SF, so it's no big thing. Even the Mormon Church seems to be backing away from it's most extremely homophobic stances. By the spring, I'll probably have to break down and buy a car. Haven't owned one since 1974. But if I want to explore the wonders of Salt Lake City (I'm about 15-20 miles north of there), or just get out of Bountiful, I'll just have to go that way. As you mentioned a Jonifest just this past September, I'd headed to the site to find out about about the next one, if such is planned. Hope so -- miss seeing all you guys. Hugs, Walt ________________________________ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:10:01 +0000 From: lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk Subject: happy start of 2010 (just a little of JC) To: joni@smoe.org CC: littlebreen@live.com; anima_rising@yahoo.ca; beatntrack@sbcglobal.net <<...Best of all: the return of Walt Breen! Walt!!! What a lovely surprise! You know, we had a Jonifest in SoCal last September, and I asked a couple of people about you, but nobody had any news, so what good fortune to have you back here! Really sorry for the hard times you have gone through, but I trust you are in a much better space now (mentally and physically, cause Utah really is a beautiful place) and that you will hang around for a good long time. You asked a number of questions, and you've probably had all the answers by now, but just in case this answer did not come through: Joni has lost both her parents by now. Her dad went first, and her mum more recently.>> ________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 18:49:33 -0700 From: Walt Breen Subject: RE: happy start of 2010 (njc) - and Jonifest 2010 Lieve said: <> Oh, God I'd love that -- haven't been to Nawlins since January '98, when I took Robert there for his first time. Whadaya say, Paz? I'd go, even in AUGUST (bleah!) Ciao, Walt <<...Best of all: the return of Walt Breen! Walt!!! What a lovely surprise! You know, we had a Jonifest in SoCal last September, and I asked a couple of people about you, but nobody had any news, so what good fortune to have you back here! Really sorry for the hard times you have gone through, but I trust you are in a much better space now (mentally and physically, cause Utah really is a beautiful place) and that you will hang around for a good long time. You asked a number of questions, and you've probably had all the answers by now, but just in case this answer did not come through: Joni has lost both her parents by now. Her dad went first, and her mum more recently.>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2010 #3 *************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------