From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2009 #320 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 27 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 320 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: More news on the Sydney Joni Tribute [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: about Brussels (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Yet more on the Sydney Joni Tribute [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Yet more on the Sydney Joni Tribute [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Intertextuality - absolutely no NJC [Mike Pritchard ] re: Joni & the black man [c Karma ] re: Joni & the black man [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Intertextuality - absolutely no NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: Interfooduality - absolutely no NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: about Brussels (NJC) [Lieve Reckers ] Re: about Brussels (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: about Brussels (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Mojo Nixon NJC [] We Are Golden [NJC] [Richard Goldman ] re: Joni & the black man [Monika Bogdanowicz ] Re: about Brussels (NJC) [Stephen_Epstein@hugoboss.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:53:19 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: More news on the Sydney Joni Tribute The Dry Cleaner From Drummoyne? That is so funny. I'm surprised I never thought of that. Yes, Drummoyne is just up the road from me. I'm also surprised that you remember where I live, Melissa. Thanks for the heads up on what the divine Miss Noonan will be singing. The curiosity was killing me. This is such a tasty little morsel. She just HAD to do some of Joni's jazz. Little Green would suit her too but, I'm really not so sure about Woodstock. I would think that's more of a Tania Bowra type of song. You must be ABC Radio's number one fan. Keep up the good work. I have to listen to crappy old WSFM at work. My boss would have a fit if I switched to ABCFM. Getting excited now. Can't wait to meet you. It'll be a little mini OzFest with Don there too. Mark (not the Dry Cleaner From Drummoyne) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:29:27 +1100 From: Melissa Gibbs Subject: Yet more on the Sydney Joni Tribute This article appeared in today's Sydney Morning Herald. It was a great way for me to start my day - morning coffee, Vegemite toast and a Joni article in my daily newspaper. It doesn't get much better than that: http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/arts/joni-mitchells-avatars-of-ador ation/2009/10/26/1256405349838.html Melissa in Sydney - eagerly anticipating Friday night ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:01:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: about Brussels (NJC) Michael Paz wrote: (cut) ... I am in Brussels and had a wonderful meal of Moules and Frites of course. I took Rickie our piano player to dinner cause someone pick pocketed his wallet right in from of the damn hotel. this is such a goergous city but I am struck by the poverty here. It is so "in your face". And it is very expensive! Yikes I don't know how people do it... (cut) Michael, I am so sorry to hear of your friend's bad experience in Brussels. Having your wallet stolen when you're abroad is a terrible downer. I remember meeting a couple of Canadian girls in a Buenos Aires hostel last year. They were at the very beginning of a year-long backpacking trip, but one of them had all her money, passport etc stolen as they arrived in town, and she was so shaken that she decided to give up and go home straightaway. My heart really went out to her. Anyway, reading your observations about the poverty in Brussels, as a Belgian I thought I should respond, but first of all please remember I have been living in England longer than I ever lived in Belgium, and I have never lived in Brussels itself. But lots of my good friends work in Brussels and love the town, and I have visited there with them. I don't know where your hotel is, but I guess it will be in the South of town, the "Midi" as it is called. It is the area where mostly immigrants live, particularly from North Africa. Yes people are poor there. But still I am surprised about your comment, because I am pretty sure that no area in Brussels could be worse than certain areas in Paris, London, New York, New Orleans... in fact just about any town I can think of. I don't mean to be defensive or apologetic about my country of origin, but it is a fact that Belgium is a more egalitarian country than, say the UK or the US. In other words, the gap between poor and rich is a lot smaller than in those countries, it veers more towards the Scandinavian model in terms of high taxes and social provisions. I guess that, as a short term visitor you have just happened to land in close proximity of the 2 extremes: the poorest area and also the richest (the international aspect of Brussels, with prices inflated because of all the rich European Union employees on fat expat wages). But it is not typical for Brussels as a whole. I hope you get a chance to relax and see a bit more of the aspect of Brussels my friends love so much: a vibrant, multicultural and popular community, with good food and drink for very reasonable prices. Lots of love, Lieve in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:41:31 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) Hi Lieve Thanks for the info. We are in the center part of the city according to the map I ma looking at and there are lots of tourists here and the shopping is amazing. We went on the metro this morning to the north side of the city to an Amex office to get Rickie a new credit card. The journey was quite nice and we did fine getting around. We are on Blvd. Adoplhe Max. Most of the major hotels are within waling distance from here. Between the hotel entrance and the metro station (one long city block) there were about 6 people begging and most of them with small children. I may be hyper sensitive to it here because personally I am on the alert when I am walking around to see everything and of course when you see little babies in the arms of their parents and they look so desperate. So sad. We do not see this so much in New Orleans in the tourist areas. What you see alot of is older men especially and they are usually in a specific area called skid row where there are services of meals etc for them. Since the storm alot of people have set up camps under the interstate near downtown, but of course the Govt runs them off all the time. I do find this city very charming and the architecture and old buildings are amazing. I wish I had time to be a tourist more and d some museums etc. Have fun with Anita and Steph and send them my love. Luv Paz On Oct 27, 2009, at 6:01 AM, Lieve Reckers wrote: Michael Paz wrote: (cut) ... I am in Brussels and had a wonderful meal of Moules and Frites of course. I took Rickie our piano player to dinner cause someone pick pocketed his wallet right in from of the damn hotel. this is such a goergous city but I am struck by the poverty here. It is so "in your face". And it is very expensive! Yikes I don't know how people do it... (cut) Michael, I am so sorry to hear of your friend's bad experience in Brussels. Having your wallet stolen when you're abroad is a terrible downer. I remember meeting a couple of Canadian girls in a Buenos Aires hostel last year. They were at the very beginning of a year- long backpacking trip, but one of them had all her money, passport etc stolen as they arrived in town, and she was so shaken that she decided to give up and go home straightaway. My heart really went out to her. Anyway, reading your observations about the poverty in Brussels, as a Belgian I thought I should respond, but first of all please remember I have been living in England longer than I ever lived in Belgium, and I have never lived in Brussels itself. But lots of my good friends work in Brussels and love the town, and I have visited there with them. I don't know where your hotel is, but I guess it will be in the South of town, the "Midi" as it is called. It is the area where mostly immigrants live, particularly from North Africa. Yes people are poor there. But still I am surprised about your comment, because I am pretty sure that no area in Brussels could be worse than certain areas in Paris, London, New York, New Orleans... in fact just about any town I can think of. I don't mean to be defensive or apologetic about my country of origin, but it is a fact that Belgium is a more egalitarian country than, say the UK or the US. In other words, the gap between poor and rich is a lot smaller than in those countries, it veers more towards the Scandinavian model in terms of high taxes and social provisions. I guess that, as a short term visitor you have just happened to land in close proximity of the 2 extremes: the poorest area and also the richest (the international aspect of Brussels, with prices inflated because of all the rich European Union employees on fat expat wages). But it is not typical for Brussels as a whole. I hope you get a chance to relax and see a bit more of the aspect of Brussels my friends love so much: a vibrant, multicultural and popular community, with good food and drink for very reasonable prices. Lots of love, Lieve in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:13:18 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Yet more on the Sydney Joni Tribute Here is the link without the smoe breakage: http://tinyurl.com/yfv9kow Thanks for all the news, Melissa - it's exciting for you I'm sure after all these years to have an event that you get to PARTICIPATE in and not just read about - I love it for ya! Bob NP: Kaki King, "Everybody Loves You" (if you have not discovered this amazing guitarist do yourself a favor) Melissa Gibbs Sent by: owner-joni@smoe.org 10/27/2009 05:29 AM Please respond to Melissa Gibbs To cc Subject Yet more on the Sydney Joni Tribute This article appeared in today's Sydney Morning Herald. It was a great way for me to start my day - morning coffee, Vegemite toast and a Joni article in my daily newspaper. It doesn't get much better than that: http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/arts/joni-mitchells-avatars-of-ador ation/2009/10/26/1256405349838.html Melissa in Sydney - eagerly anticipating Friday night - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:33:28 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Yet more on the Sydney Joni Tribute And I was particularly jacked to read THIS excerpt: "Rachel Gaudry, who is also the show's musical director, says the concert works chronologically through Mitchell's catalogue from the first acoustic albums through the jazz-infused phase, the '80s synthesiser-rock stage up to her orchestral reworking of her songs this decade." That's very refreshing, given the fact that so many tribute shows and CD's STOP at around the C&S era. Bob NP: Kaki King, "Playing With Pink Noise" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:08:45 +0100 From: Mike Pritchard Subject: Intertextuality - absolutely no NJC Its difficult to talk about intertextuality without referring to Gabriel Garcma Marquez, and especially to Cien Aqos de Soledad (One Hundred Years of Solitude). In this novel there are many references to books by other writers who were part of the Latin American boom, including Fuentes, Rulfo and Carpentier. My favourite example is Gabos (autobiographical) reference to a character called Gabriel who wins a trip to Paris and lives in the room where Rocamadour would die many years later. Rocamadour, however, is not another character in One Hundred Years of Solitude, but is a character from Julio Cortazars wonderful novel Hopscotch (Rayuela in Spanish). This, for me, is a clear example of what an interesting author can do with intertextuality. mike in bcn np - mo bhron ar an bhfarriage - Melanie O'Reilly ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:04:02 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: re: Joni & the black man Normally I prefer to avoid any discussion of Joni's love life, but I don't think there is any speculation needed. It's all in plain sight. From the Mingus version "Goodbye Porkpie Hat": "Now we are black and white embracing out in the lunatic New York night.It's very unlikely we'll be driven out of town,or be hung in a tree. That's unlikely." and later... "And the sidewalk leads us to two little dancers,dancing outside this crowded black bar.Don and me, we look up and there's a sign up on the awning,it says, "Porkpie Hat Bar." I think any confusion might stem from the fact there were two Dons: Alias and Freed. CC _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMT AGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen1:102009 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:38:39 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: re: Joni & the black man Especially when you read about the nude painting she did of him that caused him some embarassment. There's no doubt that he & Joni were lovers if anyone was wondering. Bob NP: Meshell, "Crying In Your Beer" (a nice return to "Bitter" form for her...) - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:30:03 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Intertextuality - absolutely no NJC Hi Mike I have been following this discussion with interest and I love both of these books by Marquez and Cortazar. I was thinking maybe Tom Robbins or even John Irving might be another who would qualify. Either way these round out my top 4 modern authors. Paz in Brussels (the smell of crepes and waffles and frite and chocolate are now officially killing me) Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Oct 27, 2009, at 8:08 AM, Mike Pritchard wrote: Its difficult to talk about intertextuality without referring to Gabriel Garcma Marquez, and especially to Cien Aqos de Soledad (One Hundred Years of Solitude). In this novel there are many references to books by other writers who were part of the Latin American boom, including Fuentes, Rulfo and Carpentier. My favourite example is Gabos (autobiographical) reference to a character called Gabriel who wins a trip to Paris and lives in the room where Rocamadour would die many years later. Rocamadour, however, is not another character in One Hundred Years of Solitude, but is a character from Julio Cortazars wonderful novel Hopscotch (Rayuela in Spanish). This, for me, is a clear example of what an interesting author can do with intertextuality. mike in bcn np - mo bhron ar an bhfarriage - Melanie O'Reilly ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:42:24 +0100 From: Mike Pritchard Subject: Re: Intertextuality - absolutely no NJC Keep away from the Dubel beer, or the Chimay, if it comes to that. I agree about Tom Robbins but don't know enough about Irving to comment. Have a good trip, Mike 2009/10/27 Michael Paz > Hi Mike > I have been following this discussion with interest and I love both of > these books by Marquez and Cortazar. I was thinking maybe Tom Robbins or > even John Irving might be another who would qualify. Either way these round > out my top 4 modern authors. > > Paz in Brussels (the smell of crepes and waffles and frite and chocolate > are now officially killing me) > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > Tour Manager > Preservation Hall Jazz Band > http://www.preservationhall.com > > > > > On Oct 27, 2009, at 8:08 AM, Mike Pritchard wrote: > > It s difficult to talk about intertextuality without referring to Gabriel > Garcma Marquez, and especially to Cien Aqos de Soledad (One Hundred Years > of > > Solitude). In this novel there are many references to books by other > writers > who were part of the Latin American boom , including Fuentes, Rulfo and > Carpentier. My favourite example is Gabo s (autobiographical) reference to > a character called Gabriel who wins a trip to Paris and lives in the room > where Rocamadour would die many years later . Rocamadour, however, is not > another character in One Hundred Years of Solitude, but is a character from > Julio Cortazar s wonderful novel Hopscotch (Rayuela in Spanish). This, > > for me, is a clear example of what an interesting author can do with > intertextuality. > > mike in bcn > > np - mo bhron ar an bhfarriage - Melanie O'Reilly ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:49:58 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Intertextuality - absolutely no NJC HAHHAHA. As you may or may not know I am more of a Gordon's Gin man which is plentiful here in Europe and the UK. I did have a Leon Beer last night at Chez Leon with my Mussels and Frite. It was quite good. Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Oct 27, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Mike Pritchard wrote: Keep away from the Dubel beer, or the Chimay, if it comes to that. I agree about Tom Robbins but don't know enough about Irving to comment. Have a good trip, Mike 2009/10/27 Michael Paz Hi Mike I have been following this discussion with interest and I love both of these books by Marquez and Cortazar. I was thinking maybe Tom Robbins or even John Irving might be another who would qualify. Either way these round out my top 4 modern authors. Paz in Brussels (the smell of crepes and waffles and frite and chocolate are now officially killing me) Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Oct 27, 2009, at 8:08 AM, Mike Pritchard wrote: It s difficult to talk about intertextuality without referring to Gabriel Garcma Marquez, and especially to Cien Aqos de Soledad (One Hundred Years of Solitude). In this novel there are many references to books by other writers who were part of the Latin American boom , including Fuentes, Rulfo and Carpentier. My favourite example is Gabo s (autobiographical) reference to a character called Gabriel who wins a trip to Paris and lives in the room where Rocamadour would die many years later . Rocamadour, however, is not another character in One Hundred Years of Solitude, but is a character from Julio Cortazar s wonderful novel Hopscotch (Rayuela in Spanish). This, for me, is a clear example of what an interesting author can do with intertextuality. mike in bcn np - mo bhron ar an bhfarriage - Melanie O'Reilly ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:05:06 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Intertextuality - absolutely no NJC Both are excellent but will kick your a$$. I have enjoyed Duvel ever since my first trip with John van Tiel (after French-fest), but I just got turned to Chimay while sitting with Paz & co at SoCal Fest. I had ordered a Duvel and the proprietor of the restaurant/bar came out and offered me a Chimay on the house because he was so excited to have someone order a Belgian. I have since purchased many more at the local beverage store here in town. Bob NP: Eels, "Grace Kelly Blues" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:43:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Re: Re: about Brussels (NJC) "Brussels in October - the yellow grey's what I recall" - Eric Andersen I was in Brussels many years ago at exactly this time of year. I liked it very much. It sounds like you're near the botanical gardens, not far from where we stayed. Back then, I don't recall the poverty being in evidence. Actually, I thought that section was rather glamorous. (I was younger, and had grown up poor myself - what did I know?) I recall the old town square and the bird market on Sunday mornings. The smell of frites in the old city. The architecture. The mannequin pis (which I almost tripped over, it's so small). And hunting for the torture museum (I must see something unusual on every trip), but never finding it. And lace and delftware in the shop windows. And speaking French, but having most people speak English back to me. I hope you enjoy your trip! lots of love, Anne On Oct 27, 2009, Michael Paz wrote: Hi Lieve Thanks for the info. We are in the center part of the city according to the map I ma looking at and there are lots of tourists here and the shopping is amazing. We went on the metro this morning to the north side of the city to an Amex office to get Rickie a new credit card. The journey was quite nice and we did fine getting around. We are on Blvd. Adoplhe Max. Most of the major hotels are within waling distance from here. Between the hotel entrance and the metro station (one long city block) there were about 6 people begging and most of them with small children. I may be hyper sensitive to it here because personally I am on the alert when I am walking around to see everything and of course when you see little babies in the arms of their parents and they look so desperate. So sad. We do not see this so much in New Orleans in the tourist areas. What you see alot of is older men especially and they are usually in a specific area called skid row where there are services of meals etc for them. Since the storm alot of people have set up camps under the interstate near downtown, but of course the Govt runs them off all the time. I do find this city very charming and the architecture and old buildings are amazing. I wish I had time to be a tourist more and d some museums etc. Have fun with Anita and Steph and send them my love. Luv Paz On Oct 27, 2009, at 6:01 AM, Lieve Reckers wrote: Michael Paz wrote: (cut) ... I am in Brussels and had a wonderful meal of Moules and Frites of course. I took Rickie our piano player to dinner cause someone pick pocketed his wallet right in from of the damn hotel. this is such a goergous city but I am struck by the poverty here. It is so "in your face". And it is very expensive! Yikes I don't know how people do it... (cut) Michael, I am so sorry to hear of your friend's bad experience in Brussels. Having your wallet stolen when you're abroad is a terrible downer. I remember meeting a couple of Canadian girls in a Buenos Aires hostel last year. They were at the very beginning of a year- long backpacking trip, but one of them had all her money, passport etc stolen as they arrived in town, and she was so shaken that she decided to give up and go home straightaway. My heart really went out to her. Anyway, reading your observations about the poverty in Brussels, as a Belgian I thought I should respond, but first of all please remember I have been living in England longer than I ever lived in Belgium, and I have never lived in Brussels itself. But lots of my good friends work in Brussels and love the town, and I have visited there with them. I don't know where your hotel is, but I guess it will be in the South of town, the "Midi" as it is called. It is the area where mostly immigrants live, particularly from North Africa. Yes people are poor there. But still I am surprised about your comment, because I am pretty sure that no area in Brussels could be worse than certain areas in Paris, London, New York, New Orleans... in fact just about any town I can think of. I don't mean to be defensive or apologetic about my country of origin, but it is a fact that Belgium is a more egalitarian country than, say the UK or the US. In other words, the gap between poor and rich is a lot smaller than in those countries, it veers more towards the Scandinavian model in terms of high taxes and social provisions. I guess that, as a short term visitor you have just happened to land in close proximity of the 2 extremes: the poorest area and also the richest (the international aspect of Brussels, with prices inflated because of all the rich European Union employees on fat expat wages). But it is not typical for Brussels as a whole. I hope you get a chance to relax and see a bit more of the aspect of Brussels my friends love so much: a vibrant, multicultural and popular community, with good food and drink for very reasonable prices. Lots of love, Lieve in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:17:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Interfooduality - absolutely no NJC Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Now I'm hungry! ________________________________ Paz in Brussels (the smell of crepes and waffles and frite and chocolate are now officially killing me) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:18:11 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Re: about Brussels (NJC) And speaking about Brussels and that road trip with John van Tiel after the French Fest, we had been driving all day, through France and into Belgium - we were hoping to make it into Holland but didn't as it got too late and we were all too tired to go on so we wound up in a quaint town in Belgium near the border. We found a charming little inn with a reasonable rate and decided to spend the night there. (And oh, that hot shower was the best I'd ever had but that's another story). Anyway, we hadn't eaten so we scurried across the street to a little roadside trailer/cafe that was still open but about to close and ordered frites and a combination of other local foods, and lo and behold, what was playing on the radio in the cafe but "Magdalene Laundries". I couldn't believe it - hearing Joni was strange enough, but to hear such an obscure deep track ON THE RADIO was simply amazing. We all took it as a sign that we had made the right decision. Oh, and the food was delicious. Bob NP: Marc Jordan, "From Nowhere To This Town" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:51:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) I'm just wondering if it's a sign of the weird times we live in. It's possible the gap between rich and poor has grown in Belgium, as it has elswhere. I do notice things here and hear lots of complaints from people that there will soon be no more middle class. It sometimes feels as if there are some who have LOADS of money, who can afford million-dollar condos and hummers and designer clothes from expensive shops but more people who are struggling to make ends meet. As well, there are many more either homeless or pretending-to-be-homeless people on the streets here than there ever used to be and I think it may be a worldwide phenomenon. Add to that refugees or refugee claimants or even sham refugees, along with a certain criminal element - - the kinds of people who can make more money begging (apparently) than working, or who can't get work because of the many layoffs. We go through periods here where you will see people with kids in baby carriages (the kids are always grubby looking) who walk up to you with a sign claiming they're refugees from (name a country) who don't speak English and who need money to feed their kids. At the risk of sounding like Scrooge, I don't trust people who do that and tend to write them off as scam artists. If they are true refugees, they would qualify for social assistance. I haven't seen any of that type in the last year or two, although there used to be the "shaky lady," an old woman who would either sit on the subway stairs or lie on the sidewalk and shake as if she had a motor disease of some kind. She had a sign saying she needed money and a can people could drop it in. It was always very shocking to see her and I think the shock made people donate to her cause. However, someone from one of the papers exposed her as a fraud when they observed and followed her and saw her being picked up at the end of the day by someone in a car - and she could walk perfectly well at that point. As well, there are the weekend punks who hang out in certain areas asking for money, pretending they don't have homes and then go home to the burbs at night. I'm not saying there aren't people without real needs. There are far too many homeless people who are likely homeless because they have a mental illness that isn't being treated and they're afraid to go to the shelters, so you see them lying on pieces of cardboard or near heating vents at night. As well, there are kids living in the street because they've run away from home. Those people are for real and they need a place to live. On the other hand, I get tired of the in-your-face ones who take advantage of people's kindness pretending to be homeless when they're not. In any case, twenty or so years ago, you just didn't see that on the streets here, but you see a lot of it now and I suspect things may be the same elsewhere. ________________________________ From: Lieve Reckers To: jonipeople LIST ; Michael Paz Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 7:01:38 AM Subject: about Brussels (NJC) But still I am surprised about your comment, because I am pretty sure that no area in Brussels could be worse than certain areas in Paris, London, New York, New Orleans... in fact just about any town I can think of. I don't mean to be defensive or apologetic about my country of origin, but it is a fact that Belgium is a more egalitarian country than, say the UK or the US. In other words, the gap between poor and rich is a lot smaller than in those countries, it veers more towards the Scandinavian model in terms of high taxes and social provisions. [...] __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:32:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) Catherine, I have the feeling you may be right, that the gap between rich and poor has increased in the last 10 or 20 years, although I don't think there is any real chance of the middle class disappearing in Belgium. Belgium is the epitome of middle class! But I was so surprised that Michael, who lives in New Orleans, was struck by the poverty in Brussels of all places, whereas I am quite sure that many other towns, including New Orleans, have worse areas of poverty. Then it became more clear to me when he wrote about encountering beggars with children on the Boulevard Adolphe Max. So I wrote him a reply, privately, because I am always a bit nervous starting on this sort of subject, afraid to be misunderstood. But it is so similar to the point you are making, that I feel I should share it with you. So this is the point I made: "I am sorry to say, but I think the majority of the beggars you saw are not really the "true poor"! They are professional beggars, they target the richest area on purpose and use their children for greatest effect. They usually come from Eastern Europe (Romania etc) and you see them in action in all towns in Western Europe. Earlier this year I was in Vienna, and there was this begging woman who looked dreadful, with her feet all twisted, she almost fell over. But in the evening, when I took the bus back to my cheap hotel out of town, she was on that bus too with her husband and children, who had obviously been out on begging expeditions themselves, and they went home contentedly after "a good day's work". Her feet had miraculously turned back the right way... I may sound harsh, but really, most people begging with children are putting on a show. The real poor, unfortunately, are not so easy to see. That is why I give to proper charities, not to people in the street." Michael then replied and said he had also been told the same by locals, that those people with kids were "professionals". I hope my comments are understood the way they are intended. I am not saying that those "professional beggars" are not also to be pitied in their own circumstances. I don't know all the details of how they ended up doing what they are doing, and I cannot judge them. But I am saying that they are not a true measure of poverty in a town or country, that is all. All the best,Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Catherine McKay To: Lieve Reckers ; jonipeople LIST ; Michael Paz Sent: Tuesday, 27 October, 2009 20:51:21 Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) I'm just wondering if it's a sign of the weird times we live in. It's possible the gap between rich and poor has grown in Belgium, as it has elswhere. I do notice things here and hear lots of complaints from people that there will soon be no more middle class. It sometimes feels as if there are some who have LOADS of money, who can afford million-dollar condos and hummers and designer clothes from expensive shops but more people who are struggling to make ends meet. As well, there are many more either homeless or pretending-to-be-homeless people on the streets here than there ever used to be and I think it may be a worldwide phenomenon. Add to that refugees or refugee claimants or even sham refugees, along with a certain criminal element - the kinds of people who can make more money begging (apparently) than working, or who can't get work because of the many layoffs. We go through periods here where you will see people with kids in baby carriages (the kids are always grubby looking) who walk up to you with a sign claiming they're refugees from (name a country) who don't speak English and who need money to feed their kids. At the risk of sounding like Scrooge, I don't trust people who do that and tend to write them off as scam artists. If they are true refugees, they would qualify for social assistance. I haven't seen any of that type in the last year or two, although there used to be the "shaky lady," an old woman who would either sit on the subway stairs or lie on the sidewalk and shake as if she had a motor disease of some kind. She had a sign saying she needed money and a can people could drop it in. It was always very shocking to see her and I think the shock made people donate to her cause. However, someone from one of the papers exposed her as a fraud when they observed and followed her and saw her being picked up at the end of the day by someone in a car - and she could walk perfectly well at that point. As well, there are the weekend punks who hang out in certain areas asking for money, pretending they don't have homes and then go home to the burbs at night. I'm not saying there aren't people without real needs. There are far too many homeless people who are likely homeless because they have a mental illness that isn't being treated and they're afraid to go to the shelters, so you see them lying on pieces of cardboard or near heating vents at night. As well, there are kids living in the street because they've run away from home. Those people are for real and they need a place to live. On the other hand, I get tired of the in-your-face ones who take advantage of people's kindness pretending to be homeless when they're not. In any case, twenty or so years ago, you just didn't see that on the streets here, but you see a lot of it now and I suspect things may be the same elsewhere. ________________________________ From: Lieve Reckers To: jonipeople LIST ; Michael Paz Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 7:01:38 AM Subject: about Brussels (NJC) But still I am surprised about your comment, because I am pretty sure that no area in Brussels could be worse than certain areas in Paris, London, New York, New Orleans... in fact just about any town I can think of. I don't mean to be defensive or apologetic about my country of origin, but it is a fact that Belgium is a more egalitarian country than, say the UK or the US. In other words, the gap between poor and rich is a lot smaller than in those countries, it veers more towards the Scandinavian model in terms of high taxes and social provisions. [...] ________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift?Give the gift of Flickr! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:13:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) Ha ha. I think I know the guy you're talking about. OK, there's more than one, but there's one in particular I see a lot (corner of Bay and Bloor usually.) Or the ones that hang around the bus station saying they just got in from Calgary and they need to get back home. I'd love to ask them why they came all the way here, only to turn around and want to go home, but I don't want to engage them. There are a couple of regulars I quite like because they're always cheerful (but I still don't give them money.) ________________________________ From: "Stephen_Epstein@hugoboss.com" To: Lieve Reckers Cc: Catherine McKay ; jonipeople LIST ; Michael Paz ; owner-joni@smoe.org Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 6:57:34 PM Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) the one that makes me crazy is seeing people with cardboard signs saying they are homeless, out of work and out of money and hungry and they have a beautifully healthy and well fed dog next to them! sheesh! best Stephen in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:18:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) I was likewise reluctant to bring it up, because I hate being mean-spirited about it, but those are the same ones I mean. And I guess we're a bit more gullible here because we're not used to that, or didn't used to be. I'm not sure how they manage to make it here, because you're supposed to have some kind of means in order to immigrate here, but many of them claim refugee status and, in fact, a lot of them probably do have a good claim on being refugees, but some are completely fake, so they give the real refugees a bad name. If they were illegal immigrants, I doubt they'd be making themselves noticed like that, unless they've got a lot of chutzpah. ________________________________ From: Lieve Reckers To: Catherine McKay ; jonipeople LIST ; Michael Paz Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 5:32:29 PM Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) Catherine, I have the feeling you may be right, that the gap between rich and poor has increased in the last 10 or 20 years, although I don't think there is any real chance of the middle class disappearing in Belgium. Belgium is the epitome of middle class! But I was so surprised that Michael, who lives in New Orleans, was struck by the poverty in Brussels of all places, whereas I am quite sure that many other towns, including New Orleans, have worse areas of poverty. Then it became more clear to me when he wrote about encountering beggars with children on the Boulevard Adolphe Max. So I wrote him a reply, privately, because I am always a bit nervous starting on this sort of subject, afraid to be misunderstood. But it is so similar to the point you are making, that I feel I should share it with you. So this is the point I made: "I am sorry to say, but I think the majority of the beggars you saw are not really the "true poor"! They are professional beggars, they target the richest area on purpose and use their children for greatest effect. They usually come from Eastern Europe (Romania etc) and you see them in action in all towns in Western Europe. Earlier this year I was in Vienna, and there was this begging woman who looked dreadful, with her feet all twisted, she almost fell over. But in the evening, when I took the bus back to my cheap hotel out of town, she was on that bus too with her husband and children, who had obviously been out on begging expeditions themselves, and they went home contentedly after "a good day's work". Her feet had miraculously turned back the right way... I may sound harsh, but really, most people begging with children are putting on a show. The real poor, unfortunately, are not so easy to see. That is why I give to proper charities, not to people in the street." Michael then replied and said he had also been told the same by locals, that those people with kids were "professionals". I hope my comments are understood the way they are intended. I am not saying that those "professional beggars" are not also to be pitied in their own circumstances. I don't know all the details of how they ended up doing what they are doing, and I cannot judge them. But I am saying that they are not a true measure of poverty in a town or country, that is all. All the best,Lieve in London ________________________________ __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer. 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:28:11 +0000 (UTC) From: Subject: Mojo Nixon NJC Mojo Nixon is giving away all his albums for free on Amazon (downloads) until tomorrow! Sent from Comcast Mobile ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:17:31 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: We Are Golden [NJC] So ... this young new adorable, and now it turns out quite articulate, pop star, Mika has had some Joni influence. Listen to the NPR interview he did on Sunday here: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114105196 ~Richard n.p. Mika: "Touches You", from 'The Boy Who Knew Too Much' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:28:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: re: Joni & the black man Yes, no wonder! I mean, a nude painting of you up on a wall in plain sight? I can't blame the guy but on the other hand, I can understand Joni's mindset in doing so. Afterall, art and nudity have always been quite good friends and this was someone who meant something to Joni... - -Mon - --- On Tue, 10/27/09, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: Especially when you read about the nude painting she did of him that caused him some embarassment. There's no doubt that he & Joni were lovers if anyone was wondering. Bob NP: Meshell, "Crying In Your Beer" (a nice return to "Bitter" form for her...) - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:57:34 -0500 From: Stephen_Epstein@hugoboss.com Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) the one that makes me crazy is seeing people with cardboard signs saying they are homeless, out of work and out of money and hungry and they have a beautifully healthy and well fed dog next to them! sheesh! best Stephen in Toronto H U G O B O S S Lieve Reckers Sent by: owner-joni@smoe.org 10/27/2009 05:32 PM Catherine, I have the feeling you may be right, that the gap between rich and poor has increased in the last 10 or 20 years, although I don't think there is any real chance of the middle class disappearing in Belgium. Belgium is the epitome of middle class! But I was so surprised that Michael, who lives in New Orleans, was struck by the poverty in Brussels of all places, whereas I am quite sure that many other towns, including New Orleans, have worse areas of poverty. Then it became more clear to me when he wrote about encountering beggars with children on the Boulevard Adolphe Max. So I wrote him a reply, privately, because I am always a bit nervous starting on this sort of subject, afraid to be misunderstood. But it is so similar to the point you are making, that I feel I should share it with you. So this is the point I made: "I am sorry to say, but I think the majority of the beggars you saw are not really the "true poor"! They are professional beggars, they target the richest area on purpose and use their children for greatest effect. They usually come from Eastern Europe (Romania etc) and you see them in action in all towns in Western Europe. Earlier this year I was in Vienna, and there was this begging woman who looked dreadful, with her feet all twisted, she almost fell over. But in the evening, when I took the bus back to my cheap hotel out of town, she was on that bus too with her husband and children, who had obviously been out on begging expeditions themselves, and they went home contentedly after "a good day's work". Her feet had miraculously turned back the right way... I may sound harsh, but really, most people begging with children are putting on a show. The real poor, unfortunately, are not so easy to see. That is why I give to proper charities, not to people in the street." Michael then replied and said he had also been told the same by locals, that those people with kids were "professionals". I hope my comments are understood the way they are intended. I am not saying that those "professional beggars" are not also to be pitied in their own circumstances. I don't know all the details of how they ended up doing what they are doing, and I cannot judge them. But I am saying that they are not a true measure of poverty in a town or country, that is all. All the best,Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Catherine McKay To: Lieve Reckers ; jonipeople LIST ; Michael Paz Sent: Tuesday, 27 October, 2009 20:51:21 Subject: Re: about Brussels (NJC) I'm just wondering if it's a sign of the weird times we live in. It's possible the gap between rich and poor has grown in Belgium, as it has elswhere. I do notice things here and hear lots of complaints from people that there will soon be no more middle class. It sometimes feels as if there are some who have LOADS of money, who can afford million-dollar condos and hummers and designer clothes from expensive shops but more people who are struggling to make ends meet. As well, there are many more either homeless or pretending-to-be-homeless people on the streets here than there ever used to be and I think it may be a worldwide phenomenon. Add to that refugees or refugee claimants or even sham refugees, along with a certain criminal element - the kinds of people who can make more money begging (apparently) than working, or who can't get work because of the many layoffs. We go through periods here where you will see people with kids in baby carriages (the kids are always grubby looking) who walk up to you with a sign claiming they're refugees from (name a country) who don't speak English and who need money to feed their kids. At the risk of sounding like Scrooge, I don't trust people who do that and tend to write them off as scam artists. If they are true refugees, they would qualify for social assistance. I haven't seen any of that type in the last year or two, although there used to be the "shaky lady," an old woman who would either sit on the subway stairs or lie on the sidewalk and shake as if she had a motor disease of some kind. She had a sign saying she needed money and a can people could drop it in. It was always very shocking to see her and I think the shock made people donate to her cause. However, someone from one of the papers exposed her as a fraud when they observed and followed her and saw her being picked up at the end of the day by someone in a car - and she could walk perfectly well at that point. As well, there are the weekend punks who hang out in certain areas asking for money, pretending they don't have homes and then go home to the burbs at night. I'm not saying there aren't people without real needs. There are far too many homeless people who are likely homeless because they have a mental illness that isn't being treated and they're afraid to go to the shelters, so you see them lying on pieces of cardboard or near heating vents at night. As well, there are kids living in the street because they've run away from home. Those people are for real and they need a place to live. On the other hand, I get tired of the in-your-face ones who take advantage of people's kindness pretending to be homeless when they're not. In any case, twenty or so years ago, you just didn't see that on the streets here, but you see a lot of it now and I suspect things may be the same elsewhere. ________________________________ From: Lieve Reckers To: jonipeople LIST ; Michael Paz Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 7:01:38 AM Subject: about Brussels (NJC) But still I am surprised about your comment, because I am pretty sure that no area in Brussels could be worse than certain areas in Paris, London, New York, New Orleans... in fact just about any town I can think of. I don't mean to be defensive or apologetic about my country of origin, but it is a fact that Belgium is a more egalitarian country than, say the UK or the US. In other words, the gap between poor and rich is a lot smaller than in those countries, it veers more towards the Scandinavian model in terms of high taxes and social provisions. [...] ________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift?Give the gift of Flickr! 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