From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2009 #237 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, August 9 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 237 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Blue: MP3s cheap today (8/8) at Amazon [Janet Hess ] Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) [T Peckham ] Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) ["Mark Scott" ] Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) ["Mark Scott" Subject: Blue: MP3s cheap today (8/8) at Amazon I pretty much doubt that any constant reader of JMDL will need this, but perhaps you'll know someone who'd appreciate it. Amazon.com features as its MP3 Daily Deal today, Saturday, an album you may have heard of: Blue. You can download MP3s of the entire album for a whopping $2.99 (usual price is $9.99)...today only. I love the idea of someone stumbling across the Daily Deal, figuring what the hey, it's three bucks, and downloading and discovering Joni that way. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 04:44:47 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) Yep, as is true of so much of our culture. While "Both Sides Now" and "Big Yellow Taxi" are fine songs, they hardly represent the range of Joni's work, anymore than *Take the Money and Run* and *Bananas* represent all of Woody Allen's output. But that said, "You're So Vain" is still, to my mind, a great pop song, and would be even without the intrigue of who it's about. It's well-produced, has a memorable melody, a chorus people love to sing along with--*and* a lyric that is both witty, light, and sophisticated but is also an unmistakeable kiss-off to a lousy lover, what we used to call a heel. It just occurs to me that a lot of, ahem, older folks like me will also recall Simon's first hit, "That's the Way I've Always Heard It Should Be," which spent 10 weeks on the charts, topping out at #10 in '71. It too had some pretty sophisticated lyrics--in this case, seriously addressing young women's fears of marriage becoming a trap. I'm just really tired of Carly Simon being dismissed as a second-rate songwriter/artist. It's one thing not to like her music (or her voice, or her image, whatever), but it's quite another to deny her obvious talent and hard work at her craft. To me, that's just as ignorant as folks who still characterize Joni as a folk singer. Terra On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Mark Scott wrote: > > > I guess no matter how many other songs Carly has written, she will always > be judged by the mega-hit. sigh. > > Mark in Seattle > - -- Some things in life it just gets too late to learn . . . --Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:37:54 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) Corey, Thanks so much for making a point I forgot/ran out of time to make: "I just don't understand the need to tear down other artists to elevate one artist." I understand the need to place an artist in the context of their time alongside their contemporaries, but I refuse to accept an utter dismissal of some artists simply because they are successful at a different level. I don't know much about Dan Fogelberg, but I doubt that he ever declared himself the best singer/songwriter of his generation, and I know for damned certain that Carly Simon never did. And I don't know of any critics who would claim that, either. "They're artists, they're not sports teams." For once, I really like the use of a sports analogy. ;-) Perfect! Terra On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Corey Blake wrote: > I need to read the book, but how is using one single song from an artist's > catalogue is in any way supporting an aesthetic judgment? That's like > saying > Joni Mitchell's entire songwriting abilities begin and end with "Big Yello > Taxi". > > I was able to debunk the judgment on Carly with 3 songs off the top of my > head. And I thought of Don Fogelberg's "Same Old Lang Syne" in the interim. > I hardly think that song presents a "simple argument or easy solution". In > fact, there is no easy solution in that song. The two characters have a > terribly awkward and pathetic reunion and then part ways probably to return > to their somewhat sad lives to probably never see each other again. > > In the end, I just don't understand the need to tear down other artists to > elevate one artist. Joni Mitchell is immensely talented and hugely > influential. How does Carly Simon and Don Fogelberg writing songs with an > awareness of complexity in any way take that away from Joni and her legacy? > > They're artists, they're not sports teams. > > -Corey > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Susan McNamara wrote: > > > Yeah, Richard. I wanted to reply to this thread but decided not to. > > Thanks for expressing my opinion to a tee even though I couldn't > verbalize > > it! I really enjoyed Mercer's critical discussions of these artists. I > > also really enjoyed her interview with Loudon Wainwright III, another of > my > > favorites. > > > > Sue > > > > > > ___________________ > > /___________________\ > > ||-------------------|| > > || Sue McNamara || > > || sem8@cornell.edu || > > ||___________________|| > > || O etch-a-sketch O || > > \___________________/ > > > > "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:47:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus from the album the innocent age... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjYSrbLTifk&feature=related joni sings descant and it shivers me timbers every time ;-) i've always loved the song nexus, highly energetic get up and celebrate life kind of thing; the album in its entirety was a mainstay in my listeningtojoniallday . i tried to find leader of the band on youtube but it's been removed .. fwiw, i always thought it was a moving, tender tribute to dan's father and my family adopted that song for my dad when he passed too many years ago. this is the bit that joni sings, in fine voice i might add. Wealthy the spirit that knows its Own flight Stealthy the hunter who slays His own fright Blessed the traveler who journeys The length of the light. fwiw, my library still hasnt received their copy so i've not read michelle's book. and thereby cannot comment on it. __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 12:57:39 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: NJC, laughing it all away on Dickipedia Good morning, Starshines! "Funny day, looking for laughter and finding it there": http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Sarah_Palin I've only checked out a few (her and Lieberman and Muller's Luv Guv), but they are HILARIOUS! Crude language and political content. "Don't say I didn't warn ya!" This link should work, Herr Muller. We laugh at how your perfection will *never* be denied! : ) xo, pp "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." -- John Lennon http://www.imaginepeace.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackTo School_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 07:14:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: NJC, laughing it all away on Dickipedia And an update on the Luv Guv, Patti - as you know he took a 2-week European vacation to 'try and fall in love' with his wife again...well, they just got back and she's taken the kids and all her stuff and moved OUT of the Guv's mansion and back to the family home on Sullivan's Island. Something tells me that the Euro-vacation was not a successful one...maybe now he'll move the woman he REALLY loves into the mansion and he can focus on the myriad of problems currently plaguing our state. Bob NP: The Cars, "You're All I've Got Tonight" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 15:48:24 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: RE: NJC, laughing it all away on Dickipedia BM wrote: "And an update on the Luv Guv, Patti - as you know he took a 2-week European vacation to 'try and fall in love' with his wife again...well, they just got back and she's taken the kids and all her stuff and moved OUT of the Guv's mansion and back to the family home on Sullivan's Island. Something tells me that the Euro-vacation was not a successful one...maybe now he'll move the woman he REALLY loves into the mansion and he can focus on the myriad of problems currently plaguing our state." Yes, I saw that yesterday. I doubt that he'll be very focused. Narcissists, well, you know it gets hard, keeping the wheels turning when you're always wrestling with your eeeeego, and losing. And the wife she keeps the kids She is so NOT pleased to be A part of the arrangement He should pull a Palin and hook up with HER. They can plan their 2010 campaign. RL thought they'd be a great ticket last spring. Ha. Such fools on the national stage. You just have to laugh.... I do feel really sorry for the kids, though. Their father's hell won't slowly go by. Can you imagine having a complete #$%^ for a father? No, of course we can't. We have/had GREAT ones. Hey, isn't it Pops' birthday soon? Somewhere around the 14th? (That was my Pop-Pop's birthday. He was the BEST.) Give him a hug from me! xo, pp _________________________________________________________________ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US :SI_PH_software:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 15:55:02 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: NJC, Barbra, For Free From today's Hartford Courant: "To help promote her jazzy new album "Love Is the Answer," Barbra Streisand will perform a concert Sept. 26 at New York's Village Vanguard, the famed jazz club where she opened for Miles Davis in 1961. Her announcement Thursday made no mention of other performances being planned. Tickets will be free. Details on how to register to try to win them are on her website, barbrastreisand.com." Nice! And I like the title of the new album. Love is the answer. War is not the answer. xo, pp, off to have fun and shine like the sun "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." -- John Lennon http://www.imaginepeace.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackTo School_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 09:04:39 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "T Peckham" To: "Mark Scott" ; "JMDL" Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 2:44 AM Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) "You're So Vain" is still, to my mind, > a great pop song, and would be even without the intrigue of who it's > about. > It's well-produced, has a memorable melody, a chorus people love to > sing > along with--*and* a lyric that is both witty, light, and > sophisticated but > is also an unmistakeable kiss-off to a lousy lover, what we used to > call a > heel. I agree with every word you wrote, Terra. "You're So Vain" is one of my all time favorite pop songs. I think the punch line is one of the greatest hooks ever created. > > It just occurs to me that a lot of, ahem, older folks like me will > also > recall Simon's first hit, "That's the Way I've Always Heard It > Should Be," > which spent 10 weeks on the charts, topping out at #10 in '71. It > too had > some pretty sophisticated lyrics--in this case, seriously addressing > young > women's fears of marriage becoming a trap. I've always thought this was an amazing song. Carly collaborated with Jacob Brackman on "That's the Way I've Always Heard It Should Be". Brackman co-wrote several of the songs on Carly's first few albums. But she is the only credit for "You're So Vain". For some reason I was thinking about the song "Orpheus" from her 'Coming Around Again' album last night. This has a beautiful, haunting melody and the lyrics are heart-wrenching. I don't know if it's about James or not but it certainly seems to be: Orpheus It could have been You could have held me again You said your songs were all gone That the road back up was too long But it was there for us It was there for us I loved you all along Orpheus Orpheus It could have been You could have held me again But you couldn't wait Somewhere along the road you lost your faith Out of despair And believing I was gone You gave up on our love You gave up on us But it was there for us It was there for us I loved you all along Orpheus Not "Blue" or "A Case of You" maybe, but still it hits the mark of pain and regret for a broken relationship/marriage with simple, but pretty remarkable accuracy, if you ask me. > > I'm just really tired of Carly Simon being dismissed as a > second-rate > songwriter/artist. > It's one thing not to like her music (or her voice, or her image, > whatever), > but it's quite another to deny her obvious talent and hard work at > her > craft. To me, that's just as ignorant as folks who still > characterize Joni > as a folk singer. Amen, Sister. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 12:09:29 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) Just as a point of clarification, Jacob Brackman wrote the lyrics to "That's the Way I always Heard it Would Be." Carly Simon wrote the music. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of T > Peckham > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:45 AM > To: Mark Scott; JMDL > Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) > It just occurs to me that a lot of, ahem, older folks like me will also > recall Simon's first hit, "That's the Way I've Always Heard It Should > Be," > which spent 10 weeks on the charts, topping out at #10 in '71. It too > had > some pretty sophisticated lyrics--in this case, seriously addressing > young > women's fears of marriage becoming a trap. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 13:18:59 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) For whatever it's worth, "Orpheus" is from Hello Big Man from 1983, which puts it even closer to her divorce from James Taylor, so I'd say your speculation of the "you" is probably pretty accurate. - -Corey On Aug 8, 2009, at 9:04 AM, Mark Scott wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "T Peckham" > > To: "Mark Scott" ; "JMDL" > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 2:44 AM > Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) > > > "You're So Vain" is still, to my mind, >> a great pop song, and would be even without the intrigue of who >> it's about. >> It's well-produced, has a memorable melody, a chorus people love to >> sing >> along with--*and* a lyric that is both witty, light, and >> sophisticated but >> is also an unmistakeable kiss-off to a lousy lover, what we used to >> call a >> heel. > > I agree with every word you wrote, Terra. "You're So Vain" is one > of my all time favorite pop songs. I think the punch line is one of > the greatest hooks ever created. >> >> It just occurs to me that a lot of, ahem, older folks like me will >> also >> recall Simon's first hit, "That's the Way I've Always Heard It >> Should Be," >> which spent 10 weeks on the charts, topping out at #10 in '71. It >> too had >> some pretty sophisticated lyrics--in this case, seriously >> addressing young >> women's fears of marriage becoming a trap. > > I've always thought this was an amazing song. Carly collaborated > with Jacob Brackman on "That's the Way I've Always Heard It Should > Be". Brackman co-wrote several of the songs on Carly's first few > albums. But she is the only credit for "You're So Vain". > > For some reason I was thinking about the song "Orpheus" from her > 'Coming Around Again' album last night. This has a beautiful, > haunting melody and the lyrics are heart-wrenching. I don't know if > it's about James or not but it certainly seems to be: > > Orpheus > It could have been > You could have held me again > You said your songs were all gone > That the road back up was too long > > But it was there for us > It was there for us > I loved you all along > Orpheus > > Orpheus > It could have been > You could have held me again > But you couldn't wait > Somewhere along the road you lost your faith > > Out of despair > And believing I was gone > You gave up on our love > You gave up on us > > But it was there for us > It was there for us > I loved you all along > Orpheus > > Not "Blue" or "A Case of You" maybe, but still it hits the mark of > pain and regret for a broken relationship/marriage with simple, but > pretty remarkable accuracy, if you ask me. > >> >> I'm just really tired of Carly Simon being dismissed as a second-rate >> songwriter/artist. >> It's one thing not to like her music (or her voice, or her image, >> whatever), >> but it's quite another to deny her obvious talent and hard work at >> her >> craft. To me, that's just as ignorant as folks who still >> characterize Joni >> as a folk singer. > > Amen, Sister. > > Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 15:55:54 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) Apologies to Richard and the List---when I sent this response on Thursday, I thought I had also sent it to the List. Sometimes I'm still a bit confused by the way Gmail connects all the msgs. in a thread, and I don't look closely enough at the "To" box. Color me embarrassed. :-P Terra - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: T Peckham Date: Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:03 PM To: Richard Flynn Oh, I see, because I disagree with Ms. Mercer's analysis, I'm not an "imformed" reader? I'm more informed on this particular subject than you realize. ;-) But aside from that, I find it ridiculous that any critic would base his or her judgment of an artist's entire body of work on one or two songs. What if someone were to dismiss Joni Mitchell's work on the basis of, say, "The Arrangement," or, as is currently being discussed here, "The Reocurring Dream," just to pick two random examples? I agree that Joni is a superior songwriter to Fogelberg and Simon, but so what? I consider her to be superior to almost all the songwriters of her generation. My problem with Mercer's wholly unsupported attack on Carly Simon is that I doubt she's ever listened to much of her catalogue. To say that Simon settles for "simple arguments and easy solutions" and doesn't explore the complexity of human relationships in her lyrics is just plain wrong. In addition to some very sophisticated love songs, she's also written about the devastating loss of her already-distant father; about the balancing act of being a mother, a successful singer/songwriter, and a wife; about all other sorts of family conflicts; and more recently, about surviving cancer. And done so, mostly, with elegance, wit, and grace. No one is claiming she's Joni's equal--but that doesn't make her songs "dim picture negatives of more artful songwriting." (Whatever the hell that means.) Yes, Simon was "voluptuous," and had "bombshell sex appeal" that she used to great effect on some of her album covers, but to many of us growing up in the early 70s, she was the epitome of what was quaintly called the "liberated woman," one who was frank about her sexuality--by her own choice--and who also wrote from a feminist point of view. Mercer is simply too young, apparently, to really get that, to understand why Simon's music spoke just as loudly and even eloquently to many of us as Joni's did. Also, Simon came out of a whole different set of musical influences than Joni's, and it shows in her melodic sense. Again, critics and listeners may not find her work as challenging and wide ranging as Joni's, but again I say, whose is? That's why I find Mercer's argument gratuitous. As for Dan Fogelberg--and for that matter, Loudon Wainwright--who cares?!? I don't think either of them ever interacted with Joni, and I didn't find Wainwright's insights into autobiographical songwriting particularly germane. Apparently the author did. Great. But it's my judgment as an informed reader that I find no value in weighing my experience of Joni's art against either of these musicians, and I'd rather the space had been used for more quotes from Joni herself. "(Also, "Monro" is the article writer's spelling mistake)" Um, yeah, I thought I made that clear when I addressed the comment to the article writer, Ms. Marcel. Terra On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Richard Flynn wrote: > I think Mercer's analysis of the talents of Dan Fogelberg and Carly Simon > is > judicious and well supported. She argues that they represent a diminution > of personal songwriting compared to masters like Joni Mitchell and Bob > Dylan, that they settle for "simple arguments and easy solutions" which > great writers, like Mitchell, "pick apart." Mercer distinguishes between > writing that explores feelings with an awareness of their complexity and > writing that might as well be written to Dear Diary. > > Her aesthetic judgments are supported by analyses of songs (e.g. "Leader of > the Band," "You're So Vain"). It is the job of the critic to make such > aesthetic judgments. It is the job of the informed reader to weigh those > judgments against their own experience of the works of art. > > I don't see anything gratuitous or ad hominem about MM's criticism of > wither > artist. > > (Also, "Monro" is the article writer's spelling mistake) > > > > > > > > ** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 17:16:45 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) I thought this was a private message and replied accordingly. I won't post my reply except to say that I did not intend in any way to imply that Terra was an uninformed reader. My apologies if anyone else took it that way. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of T > Peckham > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 4:56 PM > To: JMDL > Subject: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) > > Apologies to Richard and the List---when I sent this response on > Thursday, I > thought I had also sent it to the List. Sometimes I'm still a bit > confused > by the way Gmail connects all the msgs. in a thread, and I don't look > closely enough at the "To" box. Color me embarrassed. :-P Terra > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: T Peckham > Date: Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:03 PM > To: Richard Flynn > > Oh, I see, because I disagree with Ms. Mercer's analysis, I'm not an > "imformed" reader? I'm more informed on this particular subject than > you > realize. ;-) But aside from that, I find it ridiculous that any > critic > would base his or her judgment of an artist's entire body of work on > one or > two songs. What if someone were to dismiss Joni Mitchell's work on the > basis > of, say, "The Arrangement," or, as is currently being discussed here, > "The > Reocurring Dream," just to pick two random examples? > > I agree that Joni is a superior songwriter to Fogelberg and Simon, but > so > what? I consider her to be superior to almost all the songwriters of > her > generation. My problem with Mercer's wholly unsupported attack on Carly > Simon is that I doubt she's ever listened to much of her catalogue. To > say > that Simon settles for "simple arguments and easy solutions" and > doesn't > explore the complexity of human relationships in her lyrics is just > plain > wrong. In addition to some very sophisticated love songs, she's also > written > about the devastating loss of her already-distant father; about the > balancing act of being a mother, a successful singer/songwriter, and a > wife; > about all other sorts of family conflicts; and more recently, about > surviving cancer. And done so, mostly, with elegance, wit, and grace. > > No one is claiming she's Joni's equal--but that doesn't make her songs > "dim > picture negatives of more artful songwriting." (Whatever the hell that > means.) Yes, Simon was "voluptuous," and had "bombshell sex appeal" > that she > used to great effect on some of her album covers, but to many of us > growing > up in the early 70s, she was the epitome of what was quaintly called > the > "liberated woman," one who was frank about her sexuality--by her own > choice--and who also wrote from a feminist point of view. Mercer is > simply > too young, apparently, to really get that, to understand why Simon's > music > spoke just as loudly and even eloquently to many of us as Joni's did. > > Also, Simon came out of a whole different set of musical influences > than > Joni's, and it shows in her melodic sense. Again, critics and listeners > may > not find her work as challenging and wide ranging as Joni's, but again > I > say, whose is? That's why I find Mercer's argument gratuitous. > > As for Dan Fogelberg--and for that matter, Loudon Wainwright--who > cares?!? I > don't think either of them ever interacted with Joni, and I didn't find > Wainwright's insights into autobiographical songwriting > particularly germane. Apparently the author did. Great. But it's my > judgment > as an informed reader that I find no value in weighing my experience of > Joni's art against either of these musicians, and I'd rather the space > had > been used for more quotes from Joni herself. > > "(Also, "Monro" is the article writer's spelling mistake)" > > Um, yeah, I thought I made that clear when I addressed the comment to > the > article writer, Ms. Marcel. > Terra > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Richard Flynn > wrote: > > > I think Mercer's analysis of the talents of Dan Fogelberg and Carly > Simon > > is > > judicious and well supported. She argues that they represent a > diminution > > of personal songwriting compared to masters like Joni Mitchell and > Bob > > Dylan, that they settle for "simple arguments and easy solutions" > which > > great writers, like Mitchell, "pick apart." Mercer distinguishes > between > > writing that explores feelings with an awareness of their complexity > and > > writing that might as well be written to Dear Diary. > > > > Her aesthetic judgments are supported by analyses of songs (e.g. > "Leader of > > the Band," "You're So Vain"). It is the job of the critic to make > such > > aesthetic judgments. It is the job of the informed reader to weigh > those > > judgments against their own experience of the works of art. > > > > I don't see anything gratuitous or ad hominem about MM's criticism of > > wither > > artist. > > > > (Also, "Monro" is the article writer's spelling mistake) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 16:26:19 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) Thanks Richard---as far as I'm concerned, we're cool. :-) Agreeing to disagree, Terra On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Richard Flynn wrote: > I thought this was a private message and replied accordingly. I won't post > my reply except to say that I did not intend in any way to imply that Terra > was an uninformed reader. My apologies if anyone else took it that way. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of T > > Peckham > > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 4:56 PM > > To: JMDL > > Subject: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) > > > > Apologies to Richard and the List---when I sent this response on > > Thursday, I > > thought I had also sent it to the List. Sometimes I'm still a bit > > confused > > by the way Gmail connects all the msgs. in a thread, and I don't look > > closely enough at the "To" box. Color me embarrassed. :-P Terra > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: T Peckham > > Date: Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:03 PM > > To: Richard Flynn > > > > Oh, I see, because I disagree with Ms. Mercer's analysis, I'm not an > > "imformed" reader? I'm more informed on this particular subject than > > you > > realize. ;-) But aside from that, I find it ridiculous that any > > critic > > would base his or her judgment of an artist's entire body of work on > > one or > > two songs. What if someone were to dismiss Joni Mitchell's work on the > > basis > > of, say, "The Arrangement," or, as is currently being discussed here, > > "The > > Reocurring Dream," just to pick two random examples? > > > > I agree that Joni is a superior songwriter to Fogelberg and Simon, but > > so > > what? I consider her to be superior to almost all the songwriters of > > her > > generation. My problem with Mercer's wholly unsupported attack on Carly > > Simon is that I doubt she's ever listened to much of her catalogue. To > > say > > that Simon settles for "simple arguments and easy solutions" and > > doesn't > > explore the complexity of human relationships in her lyrics is just > > plain > > wrong. In addition to some very sophisticated love songs, she's also > > written > > about the devastating loss of her already-distant father; about the > > balancing act of being a mother, a successful singer/songwriter, and a > > wife; > > about all other sorts of family conflicts; and more recently, about > > surviving cancer. And done so, mostly, with elegance, wit, and grace. > > > > No one is claiming she's Joni's equal--but that doesn't make her songs > > "dim > > picture negatives of more artful songwriting." (Whatever the hell that > > means.) Yes, Simon was "voluptuous," and had "bombshell sex appeal" > > that she > > used to great effect on some of her album covers, but to many of us > > growing > > up in the early 70s, she was the epitome of what was quaintly called > > the > > "liberated woman," one who was frank about her sexuality--by her own > > choice--and who also wrote from a feminist point of view. Mercer is > > simply > > too young, apparently, to really get that, to understand why Simon's > > music > > spoke just as loudly and even eloquently to many of us as Joni's did. > > > > Also, Simon came out of a whole different set of musical influences > > than > > Joni's, and it shows in her melodic sense. Again, critics and listeners > > may > > not find her work as challenging and wide ranging as Joni's, but again > > I > > say, whose is? That's why I find Mercer's argument gratuitous. > > > > As for Dan Fogelberg--and for that matter, Loudon Wainwright--who > > cares?!? I > > don't think either of them ever interacted with Joni, and I didn't find > > Wainwright's insights into autobiographical songwriting > > particularly germane. Apparently the author did. Great. But it's my > > judgment > > as an informed reader that I find no value in weighing my experience of > > Joni's art against either of these musicians, and I'd rather the space > > had > > been used for more quotes from Joni herself. > > > > "(Also, "Monro" is the article writer's spelling mistake)" > > > > Um, yeah, I thought I made that clear when I addressed the comment to > > the > > article writer, Ms. Marcel. > > Terra > > > > > - -- Some things in life it just gets too late to learn . . . --Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 16:38:29 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus Hey Mags, Thanks for posting this, thus correcting my previous statement that I didn't think Joni and Dan F. had ever crossed paths professionally. I'm usually better at verifying my facts before shooting my big mouth off. ;-) It was a nice listen and makes me think perhaps I should revisit DF, who I somehow missed back in the day. Cheers, Terra On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Mags wrote: > from the album the innocent age... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjYSrbLTifk&feature=related > > joni sings descant and it shivers me timbers every time ;-) > > i've always loved the song nexus, highly energetic get up and celebrate > life > kind of thing; the album in its entirety was a mainstay in my > listeningtojoniallday . i tried to find leader of the band on youtube but > it's been removed .. fwiw, i always thought it was a moving, tender tribute > to > dan's father and my family adopted that song for my dad when he passed too > many years ago. > > this is the bit that joni sings, in fine voice i might add. > > Wealthy the spirit that knows its > Own flight > Stealthy the hunter who slays > His own fright > Blessed the traveler who journeys > The length of the light. > > fwiw, my library still hasnt received their copy so i've not read > michelle's > book. and thereby cannot comment on it. > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the > boot > with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New > Mail > today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > - -- Some things in life it just gets too late to learn . . . --Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 16:53:30 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM Interesting comments from all! Robert, LOL--everything you wrote, exactly. ;-) Mark and Corey, nice to know there are a few other Carly champions here. Terra On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Mark Scott wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Procyk" > >> And then there were the Carly and Dan Fogelberg digs. Yes, neither of >> them are Joni, but come on, to attack Carly by saying she doesn't own up >> to her own part in this broken relationship in "You're So Vain" made me >> laugh out loud. Seriously, do we need that in every song? Does Joni do >> that in every song? Mercer didn't back up this argument with any other >> examples from Carly. It was just such an odd, random attack. What kind >> introspection is in "Underneath the Streetlights"? Has Mercer never >> dated a dickhead like Carly apparently did? If she was going to attack >> Simon so flippantly, then back up this notion of the "Faultless Carly" >> with more evidence. It irked me beyond belief. >> >> And then there was poor Danny boy. Again, he was no Joni. And again, >> that's allright. I don't want Joni-depth, all the time. But what really >> annoyed me was that this whole thing about having to get away from the >> boyfriend's Daddy when he played Fogelberg, and how disappointed she was >> that someone she respected listened to Fogelberg. COME ON. I mean, >> REALLY. SERIOUSLY. And then to go off on "Leader of the Band?" Again, >> it's no Joni, but it's a nice little tribute to his father, and so >> what? I don't think Dan was ever put in the same league as Joni, so I was >> puzzled. I was waiting for her to say "Happy Birthday" was too banal, so >> she stormed out of her last birthday party. >> >> snip > > I really wanted to like it. I really did. But, my advice for the >> undecided is to go with Girls Like Us. And I know many of you loved this >> book, and I'm happy for all y'all. But as for me, it's back to the >> trailer with my Wonder Bread and Dan Fogelberg records and my ignorance, >> I guess... >> >> Rob >> > > LOL! > > Thank you for this, Rob. I haven't read Mercer's book so didn't feel > qualified to say much about it. > > Although I personally think Joni is peerless, I don't want that kind of > depth all the time either. > > That being said, many of Carly's songs are hardly what I would call shallow > fluff. > > Mark in Seattle > Joni Devotee *and* Carly Simon Champion > - -- Some things in life it just gets too late to learn . . . --Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 15:14:25 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corey Blake" To: "Mark Scott" Cc: "T Peckham" ; "JMDL" Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 1:18 PM Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) > For whatever it's worth, "Orpheus" is from Hello Big Man from 1983, > which puts it even closer to her divorce from James Taylor, so I'd > say your speculation of the "you" is probably pretty accurate. > > -Corey > Duh. Thanks for the correction Corey. For some reason I get those 2 albums mixed up in my head. They are both great records, imo. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 17:07:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus And Fogelberg was part of the "choir" that appears on LOTC as well, I believe. If you haven't checked out his work, as far am I'm concerned you can't miss with: 1. Home Free 2. Souvenirs 3. Captured Angel 4. Netherlands (my personal fave) Bob, who has room on his shelves for Joni, Fogelberg & Carly NP: Billy Joel, "My Life" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 17:22:22 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) njc - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corey Blake" To: "Mark Scott" Cc: "T Peckham" ; "JMDL" Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 1:18 PM Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) > For whatever it's worth, "Orpheus" is from Hello Big Man from 1983, > which puts it even closer to her divorce from James Taylor, so I'd > say your speculation of the "you" is probably pretty accurate. > > -Corey > The one that really gets me, though, is 'We're So Close' from 'Spy'. Not my favorite CS record because it's so over-produced, imo. But that song is a killer. If there's any truth in it at all, she must have gone through hell toward the end of that marriage. We're So Close by Carly Simon I've lived in all the houses he's built The one in the air, the one underground, the one on the water. the one in the sand He says 'It doesn't matter where we live.' He says 'It doesn't matter how we live. We're so close we can dispense with houses We don't need a home at all.' It's come to be a habit with me To dine alone you're never home and the evenings end so early He says 'We can be close from afar.' He says 'The closest people always are. We're so close that in our separation There's no distance at all.' Sometimes I go out to the car, turn on the headlights Intending to leave Oh, sometimes I need to hear the words My imagination's not as strong as you'd believe Oh but I've talked to you You haven't listened at all I've said 'I'm numb, I can't even cry, I'm stuck with acting out a part.' He says 'What do words ever reveal?' He says 'In speaking one can be so false. We're so close we have a silent language We don't need words at all.' There's a husky voice that speaks to me in the dark And on the phone from studios and West side bars Through tunnels of long distance He says 'We're beyond flowers.' He says 'We're beyond compliments. We're so close we can dispense with love We don't need love at all.' Mark in Seattle who will now shut up about Carly Simon (sometimes I really miss Colin) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 20:29:17 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus My favorite is his Twin Sons of Different Mothers album he did with Tim Weisberg. He covers Judy Collins' gorgeous Since You've Asked. Jerry On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:07 PM, Bob Muller wrote: > think Joni and Dan F. had ever crossed paths professionally. > > > And Fogelberg was part of the "choir" that appears on LOTC as well, I > believe. > > If you haven't checked out his work, as far am I'm concerned you can't miss > with: > > 1. Home Free > 2. Souvenirs > 3. Captured Angel > 4. Netherlands (my personal fave) > > Bob, who has room on his shelves for Joni, Fogelberg & Carly > > NP: Billy Joel, "My Life" > - -- Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 18:23:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: Re: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus hi Jerry, I had forgotten about that one, heard bits of it years ago, must check it out .. thanks! Mags __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 18:22:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: Re: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus Terra, Im so glad you like him, I recommend the Innocent Age. ;--) Mags __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 21:36:42 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus - njc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhc71T5mlVA On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Mags wrote: > Terra, Im so glad you like him, I recommend the Innocent Age. ;--) > Mags ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 19:54:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: Re: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus - njc oh Jerry, that's just beautiful! and here's another in return.... Icarus Acending, of all titles for him to choose.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu0opE8-MvE Mags (feeling a lot better these days) - --- On Sat, 8/8/09, Gerald Notaro wrote: From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: joni sings descant on dan fogelberg's song nexus - njc To: "Mags" Cc: "JMDL" , "T Peckham" Received: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 9:36 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhc71T5mlVA On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Mags wrote: Terra, Im so glad you like him, I recommend the Innocent Age. ;--) Mags __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer. 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2009 #237 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------