From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2009 #77 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, March 8 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 077 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re:barbie NJC [Mike Pritchard ] Re: NJC - Favorite kids toys ["Anita Tedder" ] NJC: Gender [Oddmund Kaarevik ] Re: barbie NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: NJC: Gender [Mark-Leon Thorne ] NJC, TV Alert: Van Morrison on Sunday Morning [Patti Parlette ] Re: NJC - Favorite kids toys [Bob Muller ] Re: Blue Motel Room and Refuge of the Roads [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Cyclops Movie: or: We are All Earthlings [njc] ["Anita Tedder" ] NJC - Bob and Barbies [est86mlm@ameritech.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 11:36:12 +0100 From: Mike Pritchard Subject: Re:barbie NJC Mags said: It makes me sick to see that even high school girls are pressured to buy uber expensive prom dresses, get all dolled up to the nines, and parade around the school hallways. And that's high school!!! what happens if your family cant afford the bling or the limo. I say that all the issues mentioned in this thread are important, especially on March 8th, International Women's Day, here known as the day of the 'working woman'. Of course there is work and there is work. Here's a link to a report on one kind of work for women. I think you can get the drift from the URL. http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/mar/08/sex-industry-lap-dancing mike in barcelona np Hancock & Shorter - 1 + 1 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 12:07:15 -0000 From: "Anita Tedder" Subject: Re: NJC - Favorite kids toys Gosh, all the talk about spirographs and etch-a-sketch has really brought back memories. I had them too and I loved them both! However, the young tom boy that was me would have rather been seen dead than playing with a Barbie doll. That was for girls who were complete wusses in my book, though I never minded boys who played with dolls. How contrary, but I think it was because my brother (who in '68 brought me my first Joni album after he'd seen her in London) was such a gentle soul. The one and only 'doll' I ever possessed was an Action Man and my favourite outfit of his was his scuba diving one, complete with a knife that you could remove from the scabbard around his leg. I so loved that. It's SO weird looking back now. Me tearing round the house with my tank and my Action Man, my brother in the kitchen baking meringues....... goodness, how did all THAT happen? Mark, my brother had quite a hard time, too. He and I both turned out gay/lesbian which, for some time, seemed really hard for our parents. Anyway, I do remember going to the shop with my Mum to buy the Action Man at our local shop because the woman selling the toys made a remark to my Mum that caused great hilarity which I didn't understand at the time. Mum said to the woman behind the counter 'I'm looking for an Action Man' and the woman, sharp as a razor, replied 'Aren't we all, dear.' I remember so clearly all the laughter and the ten year old me being quite bewildered. Oh, happy days! Anita _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 1375 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:22:04 +0100 From: Oddmund Kaarevik Subject: NJC: Gender The barbie discussion makes me think of another thread that I'm reflecting on quite a bit. Gender. Who we are - and why we are like we are. When I was a kid I preferred to play with dolls, if I had that choice (but I also played with cars when that was the option) When I came out as gay I was reflecting on my childhood. And remembered that I was playing with dolls. My brother who was two years older (and very straight) would never play with dolls. I was thinking was that some sort of sign... I've heard about mothers blaming themself for their children being gay - maybe because they've been liberal and giving them dolls. But I think this is - like Anita Gabrielle (hi !!) says in one of her songs- a deeper understanding. I think my preference for dolls in my childhood, was just another sign of who I am. Just as me preferring female vocalist. Or twice in my youth dragging to big applause - once as KLF Choir Lady and once as Celine Dion (Power of love) I tink I would like to do that again - it was fun ! When I went in fifth grade some of the girls in my class found out that I was just like a girl. I don't know what they meant. But they start calling me "girl" for two days. That shaked me deeply. I felt deeply ashamed for having my sex put to question. I thougt I was a boy, a regular one, but hey there was my innocence lost. This was repeated many times for the next years. Maybe because of my curly hair or my tender hands or voice I don't know. Sometimes it was done in a mocking kind of ways Other times it was just people making a mistake of my sex. On my 19 th birthday I was talking to an old lady I met on the winter beach full of snow we had talked for ten minutes about Billie Holiday (whom she hated, eventhoug she claimed to be a jazz fan) and than another lady came. And the lady said "As I told her" referring to me. And I had talked for ten minutes. What's the matter with me I started thinking. Why am I so often conceived as another sex than what I am. Than my latest experience is quite cheerlful. I spent three months on the wild Faeroe Islands in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. I was with out with three of my girlfriends, when a drunk man came up to our table. And though I was sweet. A quite little girl. I denied and told him I was a boy. But drunkards don't give up easily so he held the argument and claimed I was a girl. A good looking girl as well. That was the drop that me think What a fuck This is a compliment. I was sitting with three biological girls and I was the one he wanted. From that day I decided to take it as a compliment if anyone questioned my sex. But can't remember it has happened since. Anyhow I think these experiences did something to me. On how I see myself and how I see sex. This friday I was voulenteering in my Gay church. And we had a very excting visitor. Tarald Stein - who used to be a gir but now is a man. He thought about gender and it is SOOO interesting. What makes us who we are - and what is sex really. Today. Whatabout Anthony? And else.... It is something that really inspires me and I feel that there is so much to explore in this field. Than a funny situation occured on my workplace yesterday in my library. A four year old boy was to borrow a cartoon movie. But protested as I lay a pink sheet of paper with the date. He wanted another color. Orange or something. I told him that I found pink a nice color as well. His father tried to support me. But the boy was just so strong in his opinion. I told him he could get a blue one for his book. And when I forgot he reminded me.... Why on earth does a four year old have such strong opinons on what colors to have and not. This just made me wonder again - why we are who we are. And what make us this way.... Love Oddmund ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 08:30:25 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: barbie NJC I heard on the news the other day that Mattel has come out with Tatoo Barbie. Aaargh!!!! What's next, Labia Pierced Barbie? Way too much for a child, or this adult. Jimmy, leaving for the Carribean in a couple of hours. NP : The Go Go's "Vacation" ************** Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies& ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 00:12:44 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: NJC: Gender Hi Oddmund. Very interesting subject. Sexual identity is just as perplexing today as it was in times of less tolerance. We are still no closer to understanding sexuality let alone sexual identity. Until there are some decent studies done, I like to think of both sexuality and sexual identity as grey areas that can't be easily defined. It is culture that polarises people into expected ways of behaviour, not biology. There are infinite variations in people. While we are confessing, I too played with dolls when I was a child. I also liked to dress up in my mother's clothes. Yes, today, nobody who doesn't already know me, has no clue of my sexual orientation. I have complete respect for those who change their gender and treat them as their chosen sex without reservation or hesitation, but after some soul searching, I love being a man. Not necessarily the cultural behaviours but the masculinity, the physical strength. At the same time, I like to be seen as a nurturer. I enjoy feeling confident and being depnded on and yet I also like to show my weaknesses and being taken care of. It depends on my state of insecurity at the time. We all have multiple sides to us. We have our strengths and our weaknesses. The only difference is how we present ourselves to the world. I too was mistaken for a girl way too often for my liking as a young boy. I had curly blonde hair and fine features. Nobody would make that mistake now with the beard, the masses of chest hair and the bald spot on my head. Nevertheless, it boosted my ego to be referred to as "pretty" too. Like everyone, I am a mix of feminine energy and masculine energy. We should all just be allowed to express both sides (now). It should be a surprise that you have that in you. I certainly have no issue with women expressing their masculine side but I think western cultures are sometimes appalled at that. That people should only display that which their exterior portrays. On another note, I am still on a major high from last night's Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. It has always been a desire of mine to actually march in the parade and I finally did it. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. It seemed like the whole city came out (if you'll excuse the pun). There were thousands of people in the streets, all focussed on us. I felt quite overwhelmed. I marched with Harbour City Bears and they were so generous to allow me since I am not yet a member. It was a night of love, freedom and joy. I even stripped off my shirt which is something I never do in public but, I felt and atmosphere of inclusion and togetherness with everyone (no, I didn't take any ecstasy) and all my feelings of self consciousness disappeared. This year's theme was "Nations United" and many people were asked to carry a flag from a different country. I asked to carry the flag of Denmark because my great great grandfather was Danish. He migrated here in 1869 and became a police officer in Bondi. I felt a sense of family honour carrying that flag and wondered what he'd think if he was here today. Speaking of the Police, they were amazing. They were everywhere but they were so supportive and friendly. They even had their own float with a band. As did the Fire Brigade, the Rural Fire Service who had just come from the bushfires in Victoria and the State Emergency Service. There were many groups represented including the Bobby Goldsmith Foundation, celebrating 25 years of service to people suffering HIV and AIDS. Bobby Goldsmith was the first person in Australia diagnosed with AIDS. He died 25 years ago. There were families in the crowd, children, students, masses of tourists - people from every spot on the planet. It was incredible. Everybody hugging and kissing and wishing everybody else a "Happy Mardi Gras". There were media everywhere too. We were followed by Nine MSN and we were right behind the Foxtel truck who were broadcasting it all live. Their truck had a giant TV screen on either side and there were giant screens right along the route. Along with people crowding on hotel and apartment building balconies, rainbow flags everywhere. I couldn't see how deep the crowds were along the route. It was endless. If you happen to see the parade on TV, look for the Danish flag. That's me. Sydney turned pink last night and there was nothing but love in the air. Mark in Sydney On 08/03/2009, at 11:22 PM, Oddmund Kaarevik wrote: > The barbie discussion makes me think of another thread that I'm > reflecting on quite a bit. > Gender. > Who we are - and why we are like we are. > > When I was a kid I preferred to play with dolls, if I had that choice > (but I also played with cars when that was the option) > > When I came out as gay I was reflecting on my childhood. > And remembered that I was playing with dolls. > My brother who was two years older > (and very straight) would never play with dolls. > > I was thinking was that some sort of sign... > I've heard about mothers blaming themself for their children being > gay - > maybe because they've been liberal and giving them dolls. > But I think this is - like Anita Gabrielle (hi !!) says in one of > her songs- a deeper understanding. > I think my preference for dolls in my childhood, was just another > sign of who I am. > Just as me preferring female vocalist. > Or twice in my youth dragging to big applause - once as KLF Choir > Lady and once as Celine Dion (Power of love) > I tink I would like to do that again - it was fun ! > > When I went in fifth grade some of the girls in my class found out > that I was just like a girl. > I don't know what they meant. But they start calling me "girl" for > two days. > That shaked me deeply. > I felt deeply ashamed for having my sex put to question. > I thougt I was a boy, a regular one, but hey there was my innocence > lost. > > This was repeated many times for the next years. > Maybe because of my curly hair > or my tender hands or voice I don't know. > Sometimes it was done in a mocking kind of ways > Other times it was just people making a mistake of my sex. > > On my 19 th birthday I was talking to an old lady I met on the > winter beach full of snow > we had talked for ten minutes about Billie Holiday (whom she hated, > eventhoug she claimed to be a jazz fan) and than another lady came. > And the lady said "As I told her" referring to me. > And I had talked for ten minutes. > What's the matter with me I started thinking. > Why am I so often conceived as another sex than what I am. > > Than my latest experience is quite cheerlful. > I spent three months on the wild Faeroe Islands in the middle of > the Atlantic Ocean. > I was with out with three of my girlfriends, when a drunk man came > up to our table. > And though I was sweet. A quite little girl. I denied and told him > I was a boy. > But drunkards don't give up easily so he held the argument and > claimed I was a girl. > A good looking girl as well. > > That was the drop that me think > What a fuck > This is a compliment. > I was sitting with three biological girls and I was the one he wanted. > From that day I decided to take it as a compliment if anyone > questioned my sex. > But can't remember it has happened since. > Anyhow I think these experiences did something to me. > On how I see myself and how I see sex. > > This friday I was voulenteering in my Gay church. > And we had a very excting visitor. > Tarald Stein - who used to be a gir but now is a man. > He thought about gender and it is SOOO interesting. > What makes us who we are - and what is sex really. > Today. > Whatabout Anthony? > And else.... > It is something that really inspires me and I feel that there is so > much to explore in this field. > > Than a funny situation occured on my workplace yesterday in my > library. > A four year old boy was to borrow a cartoon movie. But protested as > I lay > a pink sheet of paper with the date. He wanted another color. > Orange or something. > I told him that I found pink a nice color as well. His father tried > to support me. > But the boy was just so strong in his opinion. I told him he could > get a blue one for his book. > And when I forgot he reminded me.... > > Why on earth does a four year old have such strong opinons on what > colors to have and not. > This just made me wonder again - why we are who we are. > And what make us this way.... > > Love > Oddmund ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:14:12 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: NJC, TV Alert: Van Morrison on Sunday Morning Chelsea Morning! In case Jerry did not already write in: Van Morrison is going to be on the CBS Sunday Morning show. xo, pp "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." -- John Lennon http://www.imaginepeace.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet. http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 06:59:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Barbie, toys, gender, culture njc Wow - interesting stuff! Thank, Mags and Muller for starting this one. There's so much to read and think over. Ages ago, my older sister tried to come up with some specs about what Barbie would look like if she were a real girl. And there's tons of stuff on the internet, but here's a very good one from the BBC The proportions are all out of whack, of course: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7920962.stm I had a Barbie doll when I was a kid. Back then, most kids had ONE and you bought different clothes for it or, if you were creative, you'd make your own. I may have been somewhat creative, but not when it came to making clothes, especially for dolls. Sometimes my sister Annie and I would wrap our Barbies in this coloured tape we had. That would make something approaching spandex, which probably didn't exist back then, but that would be her "sexy" outfit. I also had a car - ONE - that I had asked for for Christmas or my birthday. I think it was a Packard. I loved playing with that but also with dolls. And I liked (still do) playing with Lego and other building toys. For me, dolls were more a medium for telling stories, which I loved to do. I loved to tell my youngest sister stories, which I would act out with dolls or stuffed toys. As far as I can tell, she enjoyed listening to my stories. Telling her bed-time stories was a favourite and sometimes I think I would go on for quite a while, and often they were "to be continued" the next night. I did have friends who were really into the girly-girl version of Barbie. They had the house, the car, the whole thing. I was occasionally jealous of the ones who had all this Barbie stuff, but didn't enjoy playing with these girls, because their storylines were too dull (shopping and dating) and it wasn't as interesting or as fun as it was playing with Anne, where our Barbies got to go on adventures. We also had Etch-a-sketch, lite brite or Light Bright (whatever it was called), Spirograph, board games. I hated playing Monopoly which was my brother's (my only brother and the oldest in the family's) favourite game. He was mean and nasty when he played and he usually won. He would form consortiums (consortia?) with people in order to beat someone else down. He created a new path with new properties that went diagionally across the centre of the board. When I think back, I guess my brother was an evil genius, in a way. He had the chemisry set and all the typical stuff boys had back then and he liked to experiment on people and pets. Nothing like vivisection or anything terribly cruel, but he created a "perfume" from rose petals and so on. It stunk to high heaven. He created an "elevator" for our dog, but we wouldn't let him use it, because we were afraid the dog would fall out and be injured or even killed. Most of the time, I don't think our parents paid a lot of attention to what we kids were doing, (there were five of us), because I don't remember them interfering. In any case, Dad was away on business a lot and I think Mum just closed her ears to what we were up to once we reached a certain age. I do remember her saying things like, "I think we need to take your brother to a psychiatrist!" or, "I wish I could send you girls to finishing school" (whatever that was), but none of it ever happened and we all made it to adulthood without major incident. My favourite things were usually paper and pens or pencil crayons. I was always writing stories. I would write musical plays and I put out monthly "magazines" which had comics, stories and articles, all written by me. I would bind them by sewing them together. I never felt identified by Barbie and never aspired to be her, but do remember feeling out of place among girls or women who were engrossed with boys, clothes, china sets, furniture and so on. Although I was somewhat interested in all of those things, I never felt I fitted in very well.with people who seemed obsessed by them. I think the idea of a "tattoo" Barbie is a bit refreshing in some ways, because it's outside the usual Barbie stereotypes. But I do wish it would be a case of having ONE or maybe two dolls and changing the clothes (or adding tattoos) instead of having to buy the doll to get the outfit. But, of course, that doesn't bring in the huge profits. I have a friend/co-worker who says he always wanted a Barbie, but he had no older sister that he could borrow from, just brothers who, I think, were all straight. I have another friend/co-worker who comes from a family of three boys and one girl. All the boys are gay. The sister is straight, but has been married and divorced at least three times. I don't know if that means anything, but I find it interesting just the same. As for girls (or boys) feeling they need to conform to certain ideals of beauty, I think that has always been there. There's a lot of pressure on girls to look a certain way. With boys, it was more a pressure to act a certain way, (i.e., "Be a MAN, my son!") but I also think that culture within the last 20 years, moreso within the last 5-10 years, is very geared towards superficiality. The proliferation of TV shows and magazines that deal with the superficial aspects of stardom points to this. It's all about who's dating or married to whom, what so-and-so wore (or rather, WHO they wore), red carpets and the cult of celebrity. I'm sure this has a HUGE influence on young people and there is a great deal of pressure, especially on girls, but boys are catching up, to be able to fit into the smallest dress-size possible, but still have boobs. I don't understand why ANYONE would still be interested in beauty pageants and I don't understand why beauty pageants for young children aren't banned as some kind of child abuse. It's ironic and baffling that these things proliferate in Bible-thumper areas. In some ways, I think our culture (western culture, in any case) may have become much more accepting of gays and lesbians than former generations, which is a good thing, but maybe that depends on where you live. My kids still refer to anything they think is foolish or somehow unworthy as "gay," although, after much pressure from me and no doubt by friends, they now try to use other words but somehow "lame" isn't a lot better, is it! __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:26:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Cyclops Movie: or: We are All Earthlings [njc] Now Barbie My brother died about 16 years ago (aged 29), and we put a Barbie that he loved in his coffin with him. sigh.... when he was very young he wanted to be Cinderella. Em - --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Mark Scott wrote: > > And I was coming at it from the opposite perspective. In > the early 60s (in Iowa, anyway), it was taboo for a boy to > be playing with a Barbie doll. I was teased relentlessly by > neighborhood kids & school mates. I remember even > trying to make clothes for it. Unfortunately, I had no > natural aptitude for this. My mother was the seamstress in > the family and she made a beautiful wedding dress for my > sister's Barbie out of a piece of satin from one of my > aunt's wedding gowns. It 'mysteriously' > disappeared and Mom was always convinced that one of my > sister's friends pinched it. > > I would hate to be held up to such a ridiculous standard as > Barbie's figure represents. But then being gay in the > 80s (and still today, to some extent) was not exactly > without its standards for what your body should look like. > If you weren't buff, you weren't considered > 'hot'. And there were all kinds of epithets for > those who did not meet the standard, whether it be because > of weight, age or whatever. > > Mark in Seattle > where snow showers are predicted and who is trying not to > cringe at the thought of it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: NJC - Favorite kids toys Here's kind of funny Barbie story... whe I was 9 or 10 I was sleeping over at a friend's house and we were playing Barbies. We wanted to wash their hair and got the bright idea, to dry the hair, of pulling their heads off and sticking them in a lamp, right by the bulb. One of them, a "Midge" as I recall, caught fire! Her poor mom...I don't remember the details of how it got put out. Em ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:57:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: NJC - Favorite kids toys And then there was the giant Barbie head - my younger sister had one of those. You could style her hair and use all of the Barbie makeup on her. And if you f*cked up her hair, no problem, you just pull on it and more comes out of her head. I don't think Chris used any makeup or gave a dang about her hair since that, I'm not sure if it was because of or in spite of. Bob NP: The Black Crowes, "She Talks To Angels" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 08:12:35 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room and Refuge of the Roads Actually what is noteworthy is that she plays electric guitar throughout the album. To my knowledge she had not done that prior and would not again until the VG-8 appeared in her arsenal twenty years later. There is a little acoustic guitar added in there too (and Larry Carlton plays the acoustic on BMR) but what makes the texture of the whole Hejira album so different from her other work in that era was her playing electric guitar with deep phasing and lots of double tracking. Dave On Mar 7, 2009, at 11:00 PM, onlyJMDL Digest wrote: > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 15:37:58 -0600 > From: Dan Olson > Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room and Refuge of the Roads > > It is also noteworthy that she was driving across the country ("the > burning > desert"), prolifically composing, but limited to guitar only - she > had no > access to a piano. It could be her only album (maybe besides STAS and > Clouds) that is all acoustic guitar. (Of course, she had additional > musicians in the studio, and Jaco's bass parts were overdubbed at a > later > time, but that's probably another thread). > > ~Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:38:15 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Re: Barbie, toys, gender, culture njc Thanks for the reflections folks. It was very interesting to read. I can identify with some of what Oddmund and Mark said. I can definitely recognize very similar stories among my friends. This topic has come to life just as i begin to think about these issues for a presentation i am to give in three months time. I think you made a very interesting point here Catherine: On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > In some ways, I think our culture (western culture, in any case) may have > become much more accepting of gays and lesbians than former generations, which > is a good thing, but maybe that depends on where you live. My kids still > refer to anything they think is foolish or somehow unworthy as "gay," > although, after much pressure from me and no doubt by friends, they now try > to use other words but somehow "lame" isn't a lot better, is it! I think you are spot-on about our being more accepting. I often become complacent that it is all fine as i tend to have few obvious difficulties with it. I've never been beaten, rarely verbally abused, coming out was very very easy. Many (most?) of the guys i was friends with as a child grew up to be gay. The "gay" as an insult thing says a lot to me. It happens here too. Even some of my gay friends use it that way. Sometimes i don't even think of it as strange. When i think of the abuses perpetrated against men and women outside of the heterosexual norm around the world and in our countries in the past (distant and recent) it strikes me as being insensitive and entirely unsavoury. I sometimes take it as my responsibility to draw attention to this when people say it. That can be uncomfortable. From the website of Amnesty International LGBT network: "Governments around the world deploy an array of repressive laws and practices to deprive their lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered citizens of their dignity and to deny them their basic human rights. Lesbian and gay people are imprisoned under laws which police the bedroom and criminalize a kiss; they are tortured to extract confessions of "deviance" and raped to "cure" them of it; they are killed by "death squads" in societies which view them as "disposables"; they are executed by the state which portrays them as a threat to society." We may be past the days of LGBT folk as urnings, inverts, perverts, criminals, having mental illness and all of that in most western countries, but this does not mean we have come the whole way (i'm don't mean to preach just spewing me thoughts). In my country i cannot yet have my relationship with my partner recognized legally. We have been together six and a half years. It does not feel safe to express affection for each other in public. Reading any major gay news site you very quickly become aware of the level of explicit violence and implilcit hostility towards LGBT people around the world. I heard of a somewhat humorous letter to a government minister recently. A woman from Limerick wrote to the minister saying that this would be the very worst time in Ireland's history to introduce gay marriage or civil union as that would meant that unioned couples would stop paying tax as two single people, and start benefiting from the tax status of couples. This made me chuckle. She wasn't saying "oh the gays are evil, horrid, sick, deserve to be hurt", no, but she was still advocating the denial of what i would consider a right. Different strokes, eh? I'm not trying to single out the abuses, big or little, against LGBT people. It is only one issue. I only want to say that this is an examplar of the distance we have to go in a broad and general sense, not necessarily to prod people into carrying the "pro-gay" card. The topic could be attitudes towards people with disabilities, racism, sexism, ageism or any of a wide range of very different topics that, i think, show us that we are good at looking open and accepting, but we are often caught up in the vast cultural currents that permeate our societies, the voices that speak through us that we don't even notice. Sometimes i'm told i'm too sensitive about the gay thing, even by very close friends, but for me that typifies exactly the point i am trying to make. I'm embedded in a country, culture, society that may not be, for the most part, explicitly homophobic, but it is dominated by heternormative values. In very subtle ways i continue to be told that i'm just not good enough, just not the same. I believe we'll get there, but i wish it was today. GARRET ps - one year i took the big "barbie head" as part of my halloween costume, lol, it was pretty funny. My sister was not too impressed that it was all scuffed and i had dyed the hair dark with shoe polish. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:47:40 -0000 From: "Anita Tedder" Subject: Re: Cyclops Movie: or: We are All Earthlings [njc] Richard wrote "However, the Cyclops Movie is pure Joni. . . I love it. Have others seen this yet?" Well, Richard it's cold old day here, so I thought I'd sit down and watch the Cyclops. You are right about it being 'pure Joni'. These days I find I am so irritated by loads of split screens as in shows like '24' and super fast edits, so there is no doubt there is something about this that made me very happy and smile a lot. I think I might throw a party called 'Cyclops' and invite lots of friends to watch this new thing I have discovered. Full of breathless excitement, they'll come to watch it on Saturday evening. Can you imagine it? I'll probably never get asked to anything ever again!! :))) Anita PS I think the dvd of the ballet is just wonderful. I so hope I can get to see it live. I think I read that something might be on around the Vancouver Olympics. Does anyone know anymore about that? Steph and I go to as many Olympics as we can, but have yet to do a Winter Games, so it's about time we did! To tie in a trip to Vancouver for the Olympics which includes seeing Fiddle and the Drum. Well, that would be just HEAVEN _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 1375 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:02:20 +0100 From: Oddmund Kaarevik Subject: Re: Barbie, toys, gender, culture njc Very interesting thoughts Garret ! Thanks for sharing ! See Mr. Muller your thread about Barbie Dolls lead to this very interesting conversation You never know what you gonna get ! Love Oddmund Who is dreaming in his dreaming about the same thing as Garret hopes for. We have at least made some progress the last I don't know 30 years But I'm sure we still have way to go ! Looking forward to the digest tomorrow to read all the answers ! On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Garret wrote: > Thanks for the reflections folks. It was very interesting to read. I > can identify with some of what Oddmund and Mark said. I can > definitely recognize very similar stories among my friends. > > This topic has come to life just as i begin to think about these > issues for a presentation i am to give in three months time. > > I think you made a very interesting point here Catherine: > > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Catherine McKay > wrote: > > > > In some ways, I think our culture (western culture, in any case) may have > > become much more accepting of gays and lesbians than former generations, > which > > is a good thing, but maybe that depends on where you live. My kids still > > refer to anything they think is foolish or somehow unworthy as "gay," > > although, after much pressure from me and no doubt by friends, they now > try > > to use other words but somehow "lame" isn't a lot better, is it! > > > I think you are spot-on about our being more accepting. I often > become complacent that it is all fine as i tend to have few obvious > difficulties with it. I've never been beaten, rarely verbally abused, > coming out was very very easy. Many (most?) of the guys i was friends > with as a child grew up to be gay. > > The "gay" as an insult thing says a lot to me. It happens here too. > Even some of my gay friends use it that way. Sometimes i don't even > think of it as strange. When i think of the abuses perpetrated > against men and women outside of the heterosexual norm around the > world and in our countries in the past (distant and recent) it strikes > me as being insensitive and entirely unsavoury. I sometimes take it as > my responsibility to draw attention to this when people say it. That > can be uncomfortable. > > From the website of Amnesty International LGBT network: > "Governments around the world deploy an array of repressive laws and > practices to deprive their lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered > citizens of their dignity and to deny them their basic human rights. > Lesbian and gay people are imprisoned under laws which police the > bedroom and criminalize a kiss; they are tortured to extract > confessions of "deviance" and raped to "cure" them of it; they are > killed by "death squads" in societies which view them as > "disposables"; they are executed by the state which portrays them as a > threat to society." > > We may be past the days of LGBT folk as urnings, inverts, perverts, > criminals, having mental illness and all of that in most western > countries, but this does not mean we have come the whole way (i'm > don't mean to preach just spewing me thoughts). In my country i > cannot yet have my relationship with my partner recognized legally. > We have been together six and a half years. It does not feel safe to > express affection for each other in public. Reading any major gay news > site you very quickly become aware of the level of explicit violence > and implilcit hostility towards LGBT people around the world. > > I heard of a somewhat humorous letter to a government minister > recently. A woman from Limerick wrote to the minister saying that > this would be the very worst time in Ireland's history to introduce > gay marriage or civil union as that would meant that unioned couples > would stop paying tax as two single people, and start benefiting from > the tax status of couples. This made me chuckle. She wasn't saying "oh > the gays are evil, horrid, sick, deserve to be hurt", no, but she was > still advocating the denial of what i would consider a right. > Different strokes, eh? > > I'm not trying to single out the abuses, big or little, against LGBT > people. It is only one issue. I only want to say that this is an > examplar of the distance we have to go in a broad and general sense, > not necessarily to prod people into carrying the "pro-gay" card. The > topic could be attitudes towards people with disabilities, racism, > sexism, ageism or any of a wide range of very different topics that, i > think, show us that we are good at looking open and accepting, but we > are often caught up in the vast cultural currents that permeate our > societies, the voices that speak through us that we don't even notice. > > Sometimes i'm told i'm too sensitive about the gay thing, even by very > close friends, but for me that typifies exactly the point i am trying > to make. I'm embedded in a country, culture, society that may not be, > for the most part, explicitly homophobic, but it is dominated by > heternormative values. In very subtle ways i continue to be told that > i'm just not good enough, just not the same. > > I believe we'll get there, but i wish it was today. > GARRET > > ps - one year i took the big "barbie head" as part of my halloween > costume, lol, it was pretty funny. My sister was not too impressed > that it was all scuffed and i had dyed the hair dark with shoe polish. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 08:03:24 -0800 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: Cyclops Movie: or: We are All Earthlings [njc] For clarity sake, it's actually called Cyclops Video (not Movie, sorry about that).And for folks who have no idea what that is, it is the circular video projection Joni created for the backdrop to the ballet, Fiddle & The Drum. During the ballet video you only catch glimpses of it behind and above the dancers. The DVD features it all by itself in its entirety with music. On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Anita Tedder wrote: > Richard wrote > > "However, the Cyclops Movie is pure Joni. . . I love it. Have others seen > this yet?" > > Well, Richard it's cold old day here, so I thought I'd sit down and watch > the Cyclops. You are right about it being 'pure Joni'. These days I find I > am so irritated by loads of split screens as in shows like '24' and super > fast edits, so there is no doubt there is something about this that made me > very happy and smile a lot. > > I think I might throw a party called 'Cyclops' and invite lots of friends > to > watch this new thing I have discovered. Full of breathless excitement, > they'll come to watch it on Saturday evening. > > Can you imagine it? I'll probably never get asked to anything ever again!! > :))) > > Anita > > PS I think the dvd of the ballet is just wonderful. I so hope I can get to > see it live. I think I read that something might be on around the Vancouver > Olympics. Does anyone know anymore about that? Steph and I go to as many > Olympics as we can, but have yet to do a Winter Games, so it's about time > we > did! To tie in a trip to Vancouver for the Olympics which includes seeing > Fiddle and the Drum. Well, that would be just HEAVEN > > > _____ > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter > > . > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 1375 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:19:01 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: NJC, Favorite kids' toys Cassy wrote, in part: I didn't have a Barbie when I was young, I had a doll called "Chatty Cathy" and another named "Tressy Tessy." Chatty Cathy had a record inside her that when I pulled a string would randomly say a variety of things. Tressy Tessy had a key and a "winder" in her navel, press the button pull her hair and it grew out of the center of her head, use the key to roll it back short again. ***** Okay, I'll play. "A safe place, for kids to play." Because I am PATTY PLAYPAL! My favorite doll, for sure. She was life-sized (3 feet or so) and came out in 1959, just like Barbie. She made the move with us to California in 1966. I can't believe I gave her away to two little girls, Carole and Crystal, whom I used to babysit for. Out of the fire like Catholic saints comes Parlette and her deep complaint: I want my Patty Playpal back!!! I had Chatty Cathy, too, and Thumbelina, and Betsey Wetsey! (tee hee...remember that old French joke? The lady gets in the big yellow taxi and the driver says: "Do you want to go to Paris?" And the lady says: "Oui, oui!" and the driver replies: "Not in my taxi you don't!") As for Barbie, yes, I had Barbies. (And I agree with Terra and Mags on all that.) Now I'm having vague recollections of a Barbie board game. I think the only channeled aspiration of that game was to "get"/win Ken. If you got Poindexter (uber-nerd), you were a loser. Has anyone ever known anyone named POINDEXTER? There were two other guys, too, whose names I do not remember. I think my favorite "toys", though, were books. The Stamford Library Bookmobile came to my neighborhood every Monday, and I took out my "only four books allowed" and was done with them all by Wednesday. My brother recently found some old slides and there is a family classic in there. Two of my brothers dressed up in full camouflage with their toy rifles and G.I. Joe helmets, and me in the middle, reading a book. Maybe it was "Cherry Ames, Student Nurse" or something. When my brothers played WAR in the front yard, throwing "cherry bombs" at each other from our crab apple tree (TIC! I could sure use some sunshine on my apple trees), I would be the nurse. How sexist. But those were the days of Father Knows Best, Ozzie and Harriet, and The Donna Reed Show. But even back then, I knew war sucks. (NPIMH: War, what is it good for, absolutely NOTHING, say it again...) I, of course, never allowed my sons to have toy guys. But that didn't stop them from using sticks as guns, or once....ha. I gave my son MfM a b/day party at a bowling alley. I think it was his 6th. Well, of course the boys had short attention spans and could not wait for their turn to bowl through the bumper guards. At one point I turned around and half of them were in the coat room, hitting each other with hangers! I could have just had the party at home and thrown a bunch of coat hangers in the room and saved the expense of the bowling alley rental. Sorry. I'm blathering. I've got to get moving now (but I want to stay still) to a baby shower. It's a boy, so sure-as-shootin', everything will be BLUE. "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose", as the painted ponies go up and down. xo, Patty Playpal/Chatty Patty P.S. To Mr. & Ms. Muller and Joseph in Chapel Hill: DUCK FUKE TODAY! "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." -- John Lennon http://www.imaginepeace.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Contacts: Organize your contact list. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cn s!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:28:45 -0600 From: est86mlm@ameritech.net Subject: NJC - Bob and Barbies 1. Did y'all grow up/play with Barbies? 2. If so, did doing so make you feel inadequate? Bob, Yes, LOVED LOVED my Barbie's. I had a blonde Barbie and I think I had a black-haired one too (can anyone confirm there were black-haired barbies in the early '60s?). I also had Skipper (Barbies little siser?) and a Ken doll. Mom sewed best she could and made her some dresses and a cape with a big wood button/snap(loved the cape....easy to take on and off). Nothing she sewed would probably be anything anyone would ever want to steal. Altho she used patterns they never looked as nice as the official Barbie Brand clothes. It was always with some left-over material and alot of corduroy fabric. Mom wasn't a "seamstress" by any means. They looked hand sewed, if you know what I mean. But I was happy to have them. Buying clothes for my Barbie was too expensive for us. I would rarely get Barbie clothes from the store but I would look at them and wish I could. Mom had bought me a big thick square Barbie case for her clothes that opened to look like a room. I could spend hours with the dolls, imagining all kinds of situations. My one brother had a big blue plastic car with no top. I'd put the dolls in there and take them for a spin. Every night I'd tuck my dolls (and stuffed animals) in hand-made beds in shoe boxes before I'd go to sleep. Tucking all my dolls in bed was my nightly ritual before I got into my own bed. I did spend hours and hours with my Barbies. I loved how Barbie looked but always thought of her as a doll. I can't help but wonder if some of these girls issues today has to do with the parents themselves. Maybe the parents are too concerned about how their children look or how others would perceive them. Now that I'm older I realize my mom was busy at her work, not home much, didn't spend time with us much. From an early age I remember dressing myself. My older brother would see me off to 1st thru 3rd grades because often Mom had already left to go to her job. Had my own ideas what I liked to wear (white go-go boots was one of them......Ha! Maybe got that from Nancy Sinatra's song "Boots are made for walking"....did have her album of the same name). I had an aunt that owned a dress store on Chicago's Gold Coast. Sometimes when she visited she would bring me dresses from her store.... expensive dresses/skirts/blouses. I hated them and never wanted to wear them. My mom never made me wear them so they just hung in my closet. By the time I decided I liked them afterall I would usually have grown out of them. Fashion was not a big deal in our house. Which, when I look back, is interesting since when my mom was younger her jobs required her to dress in fancy gowns with alot of sequins and such and photos of her all dressed up wearing heavy make-up were on the walls of our house. I can only speak for myself here but, for me, the thing I loved most about my Barbies was where my imagination could take them. It was never _just_ about the clothes for me. I feel I had a good/active imagination but even at a young age realized I would never physically look like my Barbie......she was just a doll afterall. A side note.....when Mom and I decided I had grown out of my Barbies I gave them to one of the young girls at our church. Years later I married that girl's brother (my hubby) and she reminded me that I had given her the dolls. I hadn't remembered who I had given them to! I also had Trolls.....crazy haired naked trolls. I loved my trolls as much as my Barbies. I did have clothes for the trolls. I wonder now if mom should have insisted I don't play with trolls so much as I look more like the trolls than my Barbies! Now there's a serious issue! haha OMG Cassey..........I had a Chatty Cathy too! I remember the day I got mine because I had wanted one so bad and mom kept saying she couldn't afford it (she was a widow and her income was all we were living on). I must have bugged her for half a year for this doll. I remember playing around the block at a friend's house after school and when mom got home from work called to tell me to come home quick with excitement in her voice. Mom never did that, so I remember telling my friend, "I think I got a Chatty Cathy". Sure enough, when I came home there she was!! I'm sure I wanted that Chatty Cathy because day after day I'd see the commercial for it on TV while watching my favorite Bugs Bunny cartoon each morning. The influence of the Media of course. I'd often ask for carrots while watching Bugs Bunny 'cuz he was eating them.......I was always disapointed our carrots didn't have the greens dangling on the end like Bugs' had. So, yeah the Media is a big influence on the little ones! But still......I never played with Chatty Cathy near as much as my barbies and trolls. Had the silver slinky and silly putty too!! Under my bed was a big box filled with paper dolls and puzzles. Loved playing with those! I had a small box record player for my records. My older brother had a huge 45 collection and I'd love getting into them when he wasn't home (Angel Baby -Rosie & The Originals / Rubber Ball - -Bobby Vee were some of my favorites). Also had a set of furry stuffed Kitten animals in pink, orange and white. Always loved kittys! Mom had an old black typewriter. I'd pretend the typewriter was a cash register and I made a counter out of flat cardboard. I'd spend alot of time being a cashier with boxed and canned food items from the kitchen. I always loved to push buttons.....to this day I love to type. I remember one of my brothers was in a hospital for a long time. We'd visit him on weekends. Because of my young age I couldn't go to the room to see him so I had to wait by myself in the waiting area. I was fascinated with the woman working the telephone switchboard....switching the calls and connections with cords crossing over one another. I eventually got a toy switchboard I could spend hours on. I also had a Flinstone telephone with a pointy earpiece that I always managed to hurt my ear when I "answered the Bedrock phone". I'm sure if it was out today it would be recalled for that pointy/sharp earpiece. Had a plastic spinning wheel too....like Sleeping Beauty.... would put yarn in and it would spin it into a long cord......never learned how to actually make anything with it tho. Basically I could count on my hands and toes all the toys I had. Toys and kids are interesting subjects. My one brother would play for hours with his toy cars. I remember him racing them around (by hand) in a big circle on the basement floor making those spitty car sounds. Often he'd let me play with him and we'd hand race cars together.....moving them with our hands as far as we could strectch our arms. Sometimes we'd take them outside and on our knees race the cars thru the flower beds and dirt around the house. When my son was born I bought him all different kinds of cars and trucks to play with as well as many Disney movies. My son, to this day, has never touched a toy car or truck. I did try to get him to play with them like my brother and I did but he was never interested. He also never liked ANY of the Disney movies I bought him. Not one. Wouldn't watch them. Wouldn't hold his attention. Instead he LOVED the $1 bargain table finds of Bill Cosby's educational Picture Pages videos (he wore these out watching them so much- I think he loved the electronic noises & lights) and a series we found at Blockbuster, Timmy the Tooth he insisted we rent over and over again. I'm thinking because I was always with him and he was not left alone like I was he didn't develop a big imagination. ?? He was never a big "player". Always liked to figure out how things worked. More interested in the DVD player then the movie itself. Didn't want a piggy bank but the electronic bank that was near impossible to get into....no wonder he could save money so well! He did love to play with his red electronic cash register which was more of a real cash register than a toy. It would actually add, subtract, multiply, etc. (It was great for our garage sales). When he was little I often took him to the Botanical Gardens for walks and to look at the plants and flowers. He was more interested in water and where it was going. He would find all the sewer/water covers in the Gardens and watch the water go down them. I could hardly pull him away from the sewers! So basically I got to glance at the plants while he was on the hunt for water features and sewers. ~Sigh~ Ah, living in the past.... Laura o. P.S. What year did they come out with GI Joe? ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2009 #77 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------