From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2008 #107 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, June 19 2008 Volume 2008 : Number 107 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- SV: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: Covers and copyrights [Jerry Notaro ] NJC Re: SV: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 [Monika Bogdanowicz ] njc, on the anti-war path again & CONGRATS R & R! [Patti Parlette ] Re: Early Joni, 1966-1968 Disc 2 ["Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: SV: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 Thank you, Bob, for your informative reply! I do agree with what you say about the difficulties of translating lyrics, and I imagine that it is hard to check if they violate copyrights or not. There obviously are limits to what you are allowed to do, which the case of George Harrison was proof of. He was fined for using the music of Hes so fine for his My sweet lord. But then, I think, he was fined for not having assured himself of a copyright for the music, not for changing the text. So I still wonder about the conditions for doing a cover of a song and translating the lyrics alternatively writing different lyrics. If noone here knows I will try to find out during my upcoming vacation. Marion _____ Fren: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com [mailto:Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Skickat: den 17 juni 2008 15:09 Till: Marion Leffler Kopia: 'JMDL' Dmne: Re: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 Hi Marion, and thanks for your interest. Re-running these older volumes really brings back memories for me, that's for sure. To answer your question concerning dates: Lill Lindfor's cover/re-imagining of "Carey" is from 1984 Turid's "I Had A King" is from 1973 Hanne Boel's "How Can You Stop" is from 1998 As far as your question about changing the words and calling it a cover, it's a good question and I know next to nothing about copyright laws. There are certainly many cases of artists doing major word switches though, from Weird Al Yankovic (and he had to get permission to do all of his parodies) to George Harrison (who got caught putting his own text to "He's So Fine"). I would imagine that it's a particularly difficult task to re-cast a song in another language and probably fairly common that lyrically they tend to spin in other directions, making key words rhyme and scanning the original melody properly. Thanks for the insights into the translations - I always enjoy hearing Joni's songs sung in a foreign tongue even when I'm clueless as to what is being said. And yes Jerry, that includes all of the WONDERFUL Asian covers of BSN & TCG. Bob NP: Joni, "Sweet Sucker Dance" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:32:35 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 Thanks Marion for giving us an idea of the Swedish translation of the two Joni covers. I found that very interesting. I wonder why Lindfors' couldn't translate the lyrics of ACOY. Maybe you could work on that yourself. Just to see if it's possible. I think there is no difference between a cover and a rip off. Mark in Sydney NP Myth - David Bridie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:40:55 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Early Joni, 1966-1968 Disc 2 Bob, I seem to recall Joni saying at the Commonwealth Club interview that she always writes the music first and then the lyrics. It was either that interview or the Amanda Ghost interview. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:52:23 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Covers and copyrights Hi Marion and everyone, A song is defined in copyright law as melody and words. That means certain things like the chord progression and arrangement are open to modification without limit; this is the stock in trade of jazz musicians amongst others, who often spend their whole careers playing "cover" songs of Gershwin, Porter etc but strive to reframe the songs in original ways. You are allowed to record anyone's song without express permission but you must cite the correct composer and pay "mechanical" royalties up front to them. In the U.S at the moment, that is 9.1c per song per copy manufactured if it is under 5 minutes. If you record somebody's song and change the lyrics somewhat or entirely, or set lyrics to an instrumental piece (Robin and I did that with a Pat Metheny tune one time) you are creating a "derivative work"; a work that is based on the original composition but which has generated a new one. It will likely have a whole different title. To make a derivative work permission must be granted and usually no copyright benefits accrue to the person adding the new material. In other words the song is still fully owned by the first composer. In the U.S at least, copyrights expire 70 years after a composer's death, after which the material becomes "public domain". Anyone who has ever bought a guitar or piano method book will usually wonder why all the songs in them are obscure folk songs or traditional pieces; the reason is the publisher doesn't have to pay any songwriters royalties as the material is public domain. This just scratches the surface but I hope it helps a bit. For more info I bet Jerry Notaro could enlighten. cheers, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:51:52 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Covers and copyrights > This just scratches the surface but I hope it helps a bit. For more > info I bet Jerry Notaro could enlighten. Thanks, Dave. You've done a great job of explaining a VERY complicated law. As a Media Librarian I do have to deal with these issues every day, but fortunately on the educational uses, rather than the commercial ones. Those are also complicated and vastly misunderstood. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 05:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: NJC Re: SV: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 Actually George Harrison didn't consciously or intentionally rewrite He's So Fine. It wasn't as if he heard He's So Fine and thought, "great melody, I'm going to use that," and just didn't cover his ass (by getting permission and all that). He wrote My Sweet Lord, not thinking anything in terms of it being an infrigement on an already written song and had the problems come after. George Harrison was fined for "subconsciously plagiarizing" the song. The lesson to be learned, be careful of what your subconscious mind is capable of! -Monika Marion Leffler wrote: to check if they violate copyrights or not. There obviously are limits to what you are allowed to do, which the case of George Harrison was proof of. He was fined for using the music of Hes so fine for his My sweet lord. But then, I think, he was fined for not having assured himself of a copyright for the music, not for changing the text. Marion _____ Fren: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com [mailto:Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Skickat: den 17 juni 2008 15:09 Till: Marion Leffler Kopia: 'JMDL' Dmne: Re: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 Hi Marion, and thanks for your interest. Re-running these older volumes really brings back memories for me, that's for sure. To answer your question concerning dates: Lill Lindfor's cover/re-imagining of "Carey" is from 1984 Turid's "I Had A King" is from 1973 Hanne Boel's "How Can You Stop" is from 1998 As far as your question about changing the words and calling it a cover, it's a good question and I know next to nothing about copyright laws. There are certainly many cases of artists doing major word switches though, from Weird Al Yankovic (and he had to get permission to do all of his parodies) to George Harrison (who got caught putting his own text to "He's So Fine"). I would imagine that it's a particularly difficult task to re-cast a song in another language and probably fairly common that lyrically they tend to spin in other directions, making key words rhyme and scanning the original melody properly. Thanks for the insights into the translations - I always enjoy hearing Joni's songs sung in a foreign tongue even when I'm clueless as to what is being said. And yes Jerry, that includes all of the WONDERFUL Asian covers of BSN & TCG. Bob NP: Joni, "Sweet Sucker Dance" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:45:55 +0000 From: Michel BYRNE Subject: words or music first? Just to chip in, on what Deb and Monika have said - any description I've seen by Joni of her composition process has been on the lines of music first, then words - in fact, with the guitar at least: establish the chordal structure first, then let the melody emerge, then apply the lyrics. For some reason, tho, I've a feeling BSN started with words first - am I just imagining this, or was it in the interview about the 'Dreamland' compilation that Bob posted? I agree with Monika (though i've only very rarely written song lyrics) that starting with the music seems easier, as the melody defines the metrical pattern, and suggest the rhyming pattern, before you've even thought of what you're going to say. Summer greetings to all. Mich _________________________________________________________________ Great deals on almost anything at eBay.co.uk. Search, bid, find and win on eBay today! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000004ukm/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:18:43 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: njc, on the anti-war path again & CONGRATS R & R! Dear Ones: I've been in a very dark cafe all week (death and Bush and death and Bush) but I just have to peek out to share a message I received this morning. Oh, but first -- CONGRATULATIONS to Richard and Rebecca! Solid love. Sunshine in the morning. Fireworks at the end of the day. Love can be so sweet. Don't you know that love can be so sweet? All blessings on the union of your spirits! Love & Peace, Patti P. SUBJECT: Do something this Friday to end the war Dear friend, This Friday, June 20th, marks the Summer Solstice, the longest day in the year. Unfortunately, it will be just one more grueling day in what is already the third longest war in US history. June 20th is also the tenth monthly observance of the Iraq Moratorium, held on the Third Friday of each and every month until this horrific war is over. "It's got to stop! We've got to stop it!" has been the watchword of the Iraq Moratorium from Day One. The majority of this country's people want this war over, pronto. But the politicians keep hedging, media coverage keeps shrinking, and US troops and Iraq men, women and children keep dying. (Interjection from PP: Is anyone else hearing this in their head? Stevie Wonder - Higher Ground People keep on learning Soldiers keep on warring World keep on turning Because it won't be too long Powers keep on lying While your people keep on dying Worldkeep on turning Because it won't be too long..." ) It really will take all of us, acting together, to force an end to the tragedy. On Friday, please break your daily routine and take some step to end the war. You can act with othersthere are around 100 scheduled events taking place from coast to coast listed for Moratorium Day #10 at the Iraq Moratorium website, http://iraqmoratorium.org. You can act on your ownthere's a list of things you might want to do linked from the home page as well. Or use your imagination, but do something. Do something. As you do, you will be joining with thousands of others around the country. And as more and more of our friends and family and co-workers and classmates start to act to end a war they know is wrong, we will put the squeeze those who do have the power to end it but do nothing, month after month. And if you can't do anything else, please consider a donation to keep the Moratorium alive and growing. We pledge to put every dollar you can spare to immediate and effective use in the cause of peace. Click here: http://iraqmoratorium.org/donate.html Thanks for whatever you can do. Peace out, Dennis O'Neil Iraq Moratorium Committee POBox 67, Hutto TX 78634 USA http://iraqmoratorium.org iraqmoratorium@copatriot.com / +1 (512) 772-4557 Campus related inquiries (Students, Teachers, etc) students@iraqmoratorium.org / +1 (512) 772-2826 P.S. from P.P: I just have to laugh cuz it's all so crazy....I don't have to break my daily routine Friday. No sweat for me! I'm living with war in my heart, every day. "It's just another day..." (Beatles TIC) _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:15:55 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall - NJC > But, it sure is nice to have the option, eh? I love what is happening > in CA this week. Me too. My partner (of nearly 9 years, though we've known each other since 1981 when we were first "summer lovers") Mary and I got married Monday evening in Santa Rosa. Feels kinda weird, but mostly it feels fun and long overdue. Lori Santa Rosa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:30:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall - NJC love yinz both..and best wishes and muchos abrazos (as always) in your general direction. Love, Em - --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Lori Fye wrote: > From: Lori Fye > Subject: Re: We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall - NJC > To: joni@smoe.org > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 8:15 PM > > But, it sure is nice to have the option, eh? I love > what is happening > > in CA this week. > > Me too. My partner (of nearly 9 years, though we've > known each other since > 1981 when we were first "summer lovers") Mary and > I got married Monday > evening in Santa Rosa. > > Feels kinda weird, but mostly it feels fun and long > overdue. > > Lori > Santa Rosa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:22:10 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall - NJC congratulations, lori! this makes me very very happy. all the best to you and mary. patrick np - ravel, piano concerto in g, 2nd movement - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Lori Fye Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 8:16 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall - NJC > But, it sure is nice to have the option, eh? I love what is happening > in CA this week. Me too. My partner (of nearly 9 years, though we've known each other since 1981 when we were first "summer lovers") Mary and I got married Monday evening in Santa Rosa. Feels kinda weird, but mostly it feels fun and long overdue. Lori Santa Rosa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:09:12 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: njc, Memorial service w/ double rainbow and Bruce Did anyone watch any of Tim Russert's memorial service today? I just saw parts of it and was really touched by Luke's tribute to his father. "The boy was just like me. The boy was just like me." The gift goes on.... Then one of the commentators said that they were playing a "ukulele version of Somewhere Over the Rainbow" as people were exiting (I wonder if it's the one we were discussing recently when Kakki's mention of the gentle Hawaiian trade winds made me remember the ER episode with the billowing white curtains when Mark died, the one by Israel Kamakawiwo'ole that Vince can spell so effortlessly). ANYWAY, the heart and mind blower is that when people got outside they saw a DOUBLE RAINBOW. Wow. Can you imagine? Goosebumps. Particle of change orbiting around the sun, turning into a double rainbow. Ya gotta believe. (Well, YOU don't gotta, but I do.) The commentator also said that you don't see too many double rainbows in your life. They are like a solar eclipse. I've seen one in my life. It was on October 27th, 2007, riding home on the peace bus with a bunch of wonderful people after spending the afternoon with Smurf (the first time I met Smurf in person!) and Jody at the anti-war protest in Boston. That was a special day, and the double rainbow confirmed it. One more thing about the service: Bruce Springsteen sent a video tribute. Lovely. You may say I'm an impossible dreamer, but wouldn't it be cool to have Joni send a video tribute to YOUR memorial service? Not that we want one anytime soon, of course, but still somehow.... Peace, Patti P. NPOMC: Willie Nelson singing "Rainbow Connection" (the song starts around 2:04): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX9E_D_HjBo&feature=related _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashback ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:38:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: dig this, njc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Ku6LqFrio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:46:04 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Early Joni, 1966-1968 Disc 2 I remember an interview where she said that the music has features & the sound of the words should compliment them. Fittingly, she "sees" these features. She said something like, "I think of it like architecture. You'll have a constant roof line, but then your eye encounters a gable. The words have to work with that feature." I don't know if she wrote "California" that way, but it sounds like it. (Last week I imagined Gov Swartzenegger singing "Col-eee-forn-ia".) Jim L'Hommedieu (taking a break from replacing the car's water pump. And timing belt. And radiator.) now playing "Livin' For the City", at 1/3 volume in the other room Deb Messling said in part, >She says the music will demand a certain kind of lyric, for example she might need something very simple and declarative, or she might even need a certain vowel sound.> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:52:07 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: njc, Happy Birthday to Paul...and to Patrick! I can't let this 18th day of June pass without wishing un bon anniversaire to Paul McCartney, my first musical love, who I "met" when I was ten years old. Indeed, on my 10th birthday, when the Beatles first played on the Ed Sullivan Show. It was a "really big show!" Then there was music and wonderful roses They tell me in sweet fragrant meadows of dawn and you There was love all around But I never heard it singing No I never heard it at all 'Til there was you To tweak that old beer commercial: "You never forget your first St. Pauli boy!" And a little Boston-area bluebird told me that it was recently Patrick's birthday. Whenever it was, I hope it was happy, Patrick. My best to you; may your skies (and election maps!) be blue. She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah. Patti P. _________________________________________________________________ The im Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2008 #107 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------