From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #611 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, March 19 2008 Volume 2007 : Number 611 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: 80s music now 90s and beyond njc [Doug ] Re: obama njc [dsknyc05 ] Re: 80s music now 90s and beyond njc [Bob Muller ] Re: obama njc ["mack watson-bush" ] njc, TV Alert: Carole King tonight [Patti Parlette ] RE: NJC Gas prices & now peace vigils [Patti Parlette ] Re: Obama in his own words [Jeannie ] Re: obama njc ["mack watson-bush" ] obama njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: 80s music njc [] obama njc [Victor Johnson ] Obama, Wright, the UCC njc ["Vince Lavieri" ] Re: Previous elections (SJC at the end) [David Eoll ] Re: "which states" NJC [David Eoll ] Re: 80s music njc [David Eoll ] Re: NJC Previous elections ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:19:28 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re: 80s music now 90s and beyond njc I found lots to like in the early '80s. Some of my favorites Blondie - maybe doesn't count since their best albums were from the '70s Kate Bush - Kate kind of subbed for Joni since I didn't like Joni's new music at the time Lene Lovich - Flex is a great album ABBA - still an all-time favorite. Joe Jackson Elvis Costello Not too much in the late '80s though. I liked the early Madonna albums. What about the '90s? was there anything good at all? I could name REM and Radiohead, but I never bought any of their albums. They were good compared to the Thrash, Grunge and Rap crap The 2000s are looking very good. lots of good bands and singer-sonwriters. I'm crazy about Neko Case right now (thanks Richard) Doug Lucy Hone wrote: > 80's was, for me, > > Phil Collins, > Genesis, > Japan (Still life in Mobile Homes and Visions of China were amazing > songs) > Tom Waits - Blue Valentines, and Heartattack and Vine albums. Rush > (coming in late but getting them in retrospect Permenant Waves, > Hemispheres, 2112, Farewell to Kings and seeing them at Wembley for > the Moving Pictures Tour --- brilliant brilliant brilliant. > Roxy Music (particularly Flesh and Blood and Avalon) > Clannad, > Jon and Vangelis, > Bits of Joni, > James Taylor, > Jackson Browne - The Pretender is still my fave album of his. - > Joe Jackson > Michael Jackson (bit of a theme going on here) > Van Morrison - probably spent a lot of time listening to my old stuff > as I don't think I bought any in the 80's but I know I listened to him > a lot... particularly Veedon Fleece which I know is 1974 > Paul Young > Annie Lennox /Tourists > XTC > Tears for Fears although they might have been early 90's > Barbara Dixon - Scottish singer - lovely voice > Abba also... I loved and "the Winner takes it all" is perhaps one of > the best, along with "the Day before you came" > > Some of these, Joni, James, Genesis were all carry throughs but I did > not buy any Joni. It was just my old collection and I had no idea she > was still going along doing her thing. > > God what a ramble that has been. A lot of my time in the 80's was > spent learnign all the words and songs of Nick's blues set he did with > his band and it became quite tiring HAVING to listen to things because > they needed to be learned. > > What a blast > > waytoblue@comcast.net wrote: > >> -------------- Original message ---------------------- >> From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com >> >> >>> >>> >>> Very cool that you have that connection with him, Lulu. Lots & lots >>> of favorite JJ songs, maybe I should just list the ones I'm NOT >>> crazy about as it would be a short list. But my favoritist of the >>> favorites would be: >>> >> >> >> I'm still learning about Joe Jackson but I have to say I have always >> loved the song, Steppin' Out. There's something about it I just >> love. Yes, I know it's one of his biggest hits and there are >> probably scores of other songs that are better but you have to start >> somewhere. >> >> As for the music that got me through the '80's it was largely Rush - >> Moving Pictures, Exit Stage Left, Signals, Grace Under Pressure, and >> Iron Maiden - Piece of Mind, Powerslave, Somewhere in Time, Seventh >> Son of a Seventh Son. The eighties was definitely the creative peak >> for Maiden. I saw them three times and they always put on >> incredible, entertaining and energetic shows. I also saw U2 on >> Unforgettable Fire and they put on an unforgettable show. >> >> I didn't really start listening to Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, CSN, >> Van Morrison, Dead, Bob Marley until 87-88. >> Victor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:42:26 -0700 (PDT) From: dsknyc05 Subject: Re: obama njc Mack, We must have heard different speeches. The one I heard Barack give was multi-sided, with plenty of condemnation of and disagreement with things his pastor had said. But he also sees his pastor (and all of us) as complex with both good and bad inside us. His pastor's "good" must far outweigh the 30-second clips of bad that keep being shown on tv and online. If it didn't, no one would be in the pews. It's sad and frustrating that any talk of race in this country makes some people, too many people, nuts. I'm not sure what people are so afraid of when they express such an angry, simplifying, don't talk about it, shutting-down reaction whenever the subject is addressed. I commend Barack for openly tackling the subject of racism in all its complexity (including the anger of whites) even when people aren't ready to hear it. It's good to get the talking started, finally. Realizing we are all people and not just a color won't happen just by wishing for it, or by instantly condeming anyone who talks about it. Maybe reading the text of Barack's speech, Mack, will modify your harsh opinion a bit: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/18/778950.aspx Debra Shea - --- mack watson-bush wrote: > I am thoroughly disgusted with this man after this > speech. ... > Until we have the sense to realize that we are all > people and not a color, we > are stuck with this ignorance and it makes me very > sad. This man is not the > future of this country. This man is no Martin > Luther King. Today instead of > qualming the fire, he stoked it. > > mack > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:05:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: 80s music now 90s and beyond njc Defending the 90's is a cinch, which imo were head & shoulders above the 90's, and not just in terms of Joni's output. Some of the 90's artists I enjoy to this day (this list doesn't include folks lile Joni, Neil, Tom Waits, Springsteen etc who started out decades earlier although their work remained stellar in this time): Luka Bloom The Sundays They Might Be Giants (started in the 80's, came into their own in the 90's) ANI effin' DIFRANCO !! Crash Test Dummies Matthew Sweet Nirvana (single-handedly changed the direction of rock with one album....I remember the first time I heard SMTS, I was shaking and probably played it 10 more times right then). P.M. Dawn Pearl Jam Seal David Baerwald Los Lobos Lucinda Williams Tori Amos Daniel Lanois Meshell Ndegeocello Red House Painters Sheryl Crow Smashing Pumpkins Beck Jeff Buckley (Grace is probably my 2nd fave album of the decade after the afore-mentioned Nevermind) Beth Orton Counting Crows (their debut is among the best debut albums ever) Dave Matthews Band Fiona Apple Gillian Welch Keb' Mo' Ben Folds Five Green Day Joan Osbourne Jonatha Brooke Radiohead Son Volt Oasis Foo Fighters Wilco Laura Love Alana Davis Holy crap! Thanks for reminding me just how great it was, Doug - I'm sure you don't like all of these cats but you have to admit that there's a lot here to like. Bob, who doesn't buy into the BS that "all the good music came out in the 60's & 70's"... NP: Equation, "Kissing Crime" (another great album from the 90's!) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:21:04 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: obama njc Yes Debra, we must have heard different speeches or read different speeches. I have done both. One thing we can agree on, we disagree. mack > Mack, > > We must have heard different speeches. The one I heard > Barack give was multi-sided, with plenty of > condemnation of and disagreement with things his > pastor had said. But he also sees his pastor (and all > of us) as complex with both good and bad inside us. > His pastor's "good" must far outweigh the 30-second > clips of bad that keep being shown on tv and online. > If it didn't, no one would be in the pews. > > It's sad and frustrating that any talk of race in this > country makes some people, too many people, nuts. I'm > not sure what people are so afraid of when they > express such an angry, simplifying, don't talk about > it, shutting-down reaction whenever the subject is > addressed. > > I commend Barack for openly tackling the subject of > racism in all its complexity (including the anger of > whites) even when people aren't ready to hear it. It's > good to get the talking started, finally. Realizing we > are all people and not just a color won't happen just > by wishing for it, or by instantly condeming anyone > who talks about it. > > Maybe reading the text of Barack's speech, Mack, will > modify your harsh opinion a bit: > > http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/18/778950.aspx > > Debra Shea > > > --- mack watson-bush wrote: > >> I am thoroughly disgusted with this man after this >> speech. ... >> Until we have the sense to realize that we are all >> people and not a color, we >> are stuck with this ignorance and it makes me very >> sad. This man is not the >> future of this country. This man is no Martin >> Luther King. Today instead of >> qualming the fire, he stoked it. >> >> mack >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:33:56 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: njc, TV Alert: Carole King tonight Bon soir! Carole King is supposed to be on Stephen Colbert at 11:30 p.m. EST (Comedy Central); it's usually repeated the next day at 8 p.m. xo, pp _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:46:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: 80s music now 90s and beyond njc Duh. Meant to say "the 80's". Bob ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:01:11 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: RE: NJC Gas prices & now peace vigils Bob shared: Here's a photo and articla about the vigil held in Greenville Sunday: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008803170314 ***** Thanks, Bob! Sweet inspiration for tomorrow! All those candle cups EACH had a name on them. Can you just *imagine* seeing a cup with your child's name on it? I can't. Oh, those poor mothers and fathers! Mags, I am so sorry about your friend. How many more? I also enjoyed the video, and the singing at the end: For the fallen soldiers I'm gonna let it shine Let it shine Let it shine Let is shine. Let all our little lights shine tomorrow --- like blazes, all across the sky. No candles for us, though. It's going to rain. Hey, candles in the rain! I love that song! Lay it all down! I'm still getting RSVPs from people who are coming to our rally tomorrow. One of them I am particularly excited about. A locally famous activist whom I met on the magic bus coming back from Boston on October 27th. Holy merde -- meeting Smurf AND Jody AND Charles Prewitt all in one day was big excitement for me! "Charles Prewitt supported World War II and served as a chemist with duPont, including two years on the Manhattan Project. As a result of Hiroshima, he became convinced that humans could destroy themselves totally with nuclear weapons. Hence, he left his career in the natural sciences and obtained a Doctorate in Education. It appeared to him that humanity could cease to exist as a result of knowledge in the natural sciences and could only be saved through application of expanded knowledge in the social sciences. In 1970 he retired as Professor Emeritus from Eastern Connecticut State University. He had taught thirty-eight years in universities, ten of those in Asia, including six in Afghanistan, and eight in the peace studies program at the University of Connecticut. While in Asia he wrote several textbooks. During retirement he has been active in a number of peace organizations and has been lecturing on peace topics from Massachusetts to Tennessee. He now opposes all wars and all military expenditures by all nations." reference: http://www.unescochair.uconn.edu/pastspring04.htm He just celebrated his 89th b/day and he's bringing his digital camera so we can send photos to moveon.org. I've been to vigils and protests before, but never have been the host of one, so I'm excited and a little anxious. Good vibes and wishes accepted! Come up to my campus, and I'll show you my best reci-peace! Love & Peace, Patti P. _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:59:54 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re: 80s music now 90s and beyond njc Still not impressed Bob, though I admit I'm not familiar with everything in your list Sometimes it helps to see them live, and I haven't. I remembered one singer-songwriter I like from the '90s: Iris DeMent. Doug Bob Muller wrote: > Defending the 90's is a cinch, which imo were head & shoulders above the 90's, and not just in terms of Joni's output. Some of the 90's artists I enjoy to this day (this list doesn't include folks lile Joni, Neil, Tom Waits, Springsteen etc who started out decades earlier although their work remained stellar in this time): > > Luka Bloom > The Sundays > They Might Be Giants (started in the 80's, came into their own in the 90's) > ANI effin' DIFRANCO !! > Crash Test Dummies > Matthew Sweet > Nirvana (single-handedly changed the direction of rock with one album....I remember the first time I heard SMTS, I was shaking and probably played it 10 more times right then). > P.M. Dawn > Pearl Jam > Seal > David Baerwald > Los Lobos > Lucinda Williams > Tori Amos > Daniel Lanois > Meshell Ndegeocello > Red House Painters > Sheryl Crow > Smashing Pumpkins > Beck > Jeff Buckley (Grace is probably my 2nd fave album of the decade after the afore-mentioned Nevermind) > Beth Orton > Counting Crows (their debut is among the best debut albums ever) > Dave Matthews Band > Fiona Apple > Gillian Welch > Keb' Mo' > Ben Folds Five > Green Day > Joan Osbourne > Jonatha Brooke > Radiohead > Son Volt > Oasis > Foo Fighters > Wilco > Laura Love > Alana Davis > > Holy crap! Thanks for reminding me just how great it was, Doug - I'm sure you don't like all of these cats but you have to admit that there's a lot here to like. > > Bob, who doesn't buy into the BS that "all the good music came out in the 60's & 70's"... > > NP: Equation, "Kissing Crime" (another great album from the 90's!) > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:59:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeannie Subject: Re: Obama in his own words Cassy, this is the speech mack may be talking about. Jeannie David Plouffe wrote: NormaJean -- Barack Obama just finished a major speech on race in America and building a more perfect union. You should see it and read it for yourself. Here's the video and full text: http://my.barackobama.com/hisownwords Please forward this message to everyone you know. Thank you, David Paid for by Obama for America This email was sent to: dreamin1957jeannie@yahoo.com To unsubscribe, go to: http://my.barackobama.com/unsubscribe ~nj~ - --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:50:55 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: obama njc >> We must have heard different speeches. The one I heard >> Barack give was multi-sided, with plenty of >> condemnation of and disagreement with things his >> pastor had said. But he also sees his pastor (and all >> of us) as complex with both good and bad inside us. He did indeed condemn some of his pastor's statements while, at the same time, not going where he should have gone and that was to completely wash his hands of the man. Are we to believe, I don't, that this man that is part of his 'family' is actually two men? One that is a Christian man while with Mr. Barack but at other times the ranting racist he has been shown to be. Yes, some have good and bad. Some have only bad. To write that all human beings have both is shortsighted and blind. The examples of such would be endless. You mention the 30 second clips that have been shown on t.v. as if they are an aberration and therefore everything else that has been spouted by this man must be good, or outweigh the bad, or the pews would be empty. Absurd. More likely is that the man is doing this on a regular basis and weakening the chances that folks can live as people, together, and not be divided by black and white or color differences in general. Pews have been filled to capacity for centuries listening to and believing those that speak of much worse than this person. This is not an association, between these two men, that has been brief or even relatively new. He has known this man for a very long time and has persisted in his association with him and apparently has no intention of not doing so in the future. It's a sure bet he won't associate with him much until the election is held, at least not publicly. This member of his 'family' has touched him in so many ways, baptizing his children and performing his marriage ceremony, yet he had not a clue that this person acted this way or influenced people in this way. Rubbish. >> His pastor's "good" must far outweigh the 30-second >> clips of bad that keep being shown on tv and online. >> If it didn't, no one would be in the pews. >> >> It's sad and frustrating that any talk of race in this >> country makes some people, too many people, nuts. It is indeed. It is also just as much those things, and more, that the only persons that can mention race in this country, in this day and age, are black americans. That is the reason Hilary Clinton and no other so called white person, as if their is any color that can be categorized in such silly terms yet it continues to be done, can mention race, more than in a passing and in a surface fashion. To do so would immediately bring forth more claims of racism by american blacks. I'm >> not sure what people are so afraid of when they >> express such an angry, simplifying, don't talk about >> it, shutting-down reaction whenever the subject is >> addressed. - --See above. Anger? Hmmm. It is perfectly accepted for blacks to be angry. But whites, again with the silly color coating descriptive terms of human beings, can do nothing but accept that they are somehow evil for all the transgressions that have been perpetrated against blacks. And greivous they were. But how long will it take for that to end? How long will it take for persons to stop using it as a crutch? I work with a crew that is 90% black. I have for years. American blacks loathe Africans, at least here in Texas. Won't associate with them and constantly put them down, call them names, etc. I find the Africans workers very good, endearing, and hard workers. I enjoy them very much. American blacks, the majority, make the point of segregation and let all of us know that we are not to intrude upon that. We can never be a part of who they are, can never know what they feel, can never know the pain and hurt they have endured. The one co-worker that is biracial, as Obama, is constantly ostracized, put down, called names, etc. "Embrace your blackness sister', they tell her. How do I know these things? Because she tells me. And yes, these are the examples that have been my experience at my workplace, nothing more. Anger? Yes, there is anger. Anger at being blamed for something of which I had nothing to do with. Anger at being called names for not being a black man. Anger at not being able to advance because I am not a black woman. I refuse to play the game. I refuse to dislike someone because of their color. I refuse to believe that we, as human beings, cannot stop the bickering and see each other for who we are, people. I also refuse to allow myself to not express myself for fear of being called racist simply because I have an opinion. I am as far from racist as one could be and I don't simply talk about it, I live it and work it, each and every day. For a person such as this pastor to feed the fire of racism and hate on a daily basis angers me greatly. And for the man that is running for the presidency of the United States to have been in such a close association with this person angers me more. And for him to disavow knowledge of that association and that behavior is unacceptable to me. And yes, if I were in a congregation where the preacher spouted such, I would walk out and not go back. >> >> I commend Barack for openly tackling the subject of >> racism in all its complexity (including the anger of >> whites) even when people aren't ready to hear it. It's >> good to get the talking started, finally. - --People have been talking since the beginning Debra. Perhaps you weren't listening. Barack Obama is by no means the start of anything in that regard. He is no Martin Luther King, again, and pales in comparison to the true visionary, a truly great man. Realizing we >> are all people and not just a color won't happen just >> by wishing for it, - --It sure won't and it won't happen by allowing this constant stream of self serving rhetoric either, or by hate filled sermons that do nothing but make the chasm between the two sides even larger. You can bet their are plenty of ignorant white folks that just don't get it. And there are just as many blacks that don't as well. The good thing is that there are plenty from all walks and colors that do. or by instantly condeming anyone >> who talks about it. - --I assume this comment is directed at me. As if my thoughts are somehow more rash or less well thought out as yours, since they differ from yours. When is it okay to condemn? An hour later? A day? Perhaps about the same time it is to applaud. Let's get one thing clear. I think we all want the same thing. I think we have the same vision. We simply don't agree as to the vision, the motives, or the actions of this man. mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:20:43 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: obama njc Sen Obama said, in part, >"He contains within him the contradictions – the good and the bad – of the community that he has served diligently for so many years,'' Mr. Obama said of Mr. Wright [, his minister]. " I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother."> Mack said, in part, >I am thoroughly disgusted with this man after this speech.> Not me. The "issue" of Mr. Wright's Afrocentric ministry goes back at least a year. On the NY Times site, back in March of last year, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/politics/06obama.html Back then, the article said that Sen Obama had withdrawn his invitation to Wright to give a public invocation to begin his announcement of running for president. As far as I can tell, Mr. Wright feels that US citizens who happen to have ancestors from Africa have been treated poorly in their own country. Who can argue that? Obviously, every person of color in the US has a right to moral indignation. The way I score this one, Senator Obama took the high ground. Again. He could have sounded defensive, but didn't. His speech was very much "on message", "big picture", and high minded. He's going to be Presidential every minute, folks. The only person who could benefit from resurrecting this old "issue", this month, is Senator Clinton. Hey, I support them both. In my opinion, in either case, things will improve. Jim L'Hommedieu P.S. General Petraeus's efforts to reconcile Iraq's internal differences, one neighborhood at a time, are really working. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:52:32 -0700 From: Subject: Re: 80s music njc Lucy, What a great story that you and your ex-husband were friends with Joe Jackson! You should know this bit was the main topic of conversation tonight with my neighborhood friends who also are fans of him and Joni. We all had previously thought he was a New Yorker! Thanks and I love your 60s music choices, too! Kakki > JOe JAckson was a really good mate of my late ex husband. Joe is a local > man and is such a lovely guy. I met him a few times and he is such a > brilliant pianist. He still has a house near mine which a friend >of mine > lives in when Joe is on tour or living in Berlin, which he does a lot. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:59:55 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: obama njc I usually don't discuss politics here but I read Obama's speech and I admire him even more after reading it. I don't personally know Obama or his pastor so I think it would be presumptuous of me to make rash judgements about him based on a personal life I know virtually nothing about and have not directly experienced. People can indeed be very complex and I have no doubt that it would be very difficult to just completely cut ties with someone with whom you have some sort of a bond. I am not going to call Barack Obama a liar because for one, I don't believe he is lying and two, I have no evidence or any basis on which to say that he is lying. Just saying that someone is a liar does not make them one. Obama says that Rev. Wright's statements were based on a "profoundly distorted view of this country", that he has condemned them unequivocally, and that they are "not only wrong but divisive". Maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't sound to me like someone who is defending Wright. I strongly agree with what Obama said below-- "Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias. But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality. The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we've never really worked through - a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American." Go Obama! Victor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:16:29 -0400 From: "Vince Lavieri" Subject: Obama, Wright, the UCC njc A few comments on Rev. Jeremiah Wright. I know him. We belong to the same church body, the United Church of Christ. He is a very good man and an excellent pastor, a Christian prophet in our times. I would not have used the precise colorful language that he did - but damn, it was effective. He called out truth to power. I don't mind Senator Obama distancing himself as he did, his role is different. For me, what did Wright say that was so wrong? Our nation did support apartheid in South Africa, we did use nuclear weapons without blinking, we have been as a nation in the wrong many times and there are times a preacher must call nation, society, and culture to account. Wright said many things that need to be said. Wright has spoken strongly denouncing homophobia, by the way, and we in the UCC are the only mainline denomination that has made a stance for marriage equality. Wright has led the people of Trinity UCC into astounding generousity. They have funded new church starts in Chicago, in Gary, and now in Benton Harbor, Michigan. These are expensive propositions because it is not just a church in the white sense that is being started, but a church that deals with job training, education, building families, building community in places where hope has been lost. They have given millions - millions - for others. You might have heard of other members of Trinity UCC - Oprah Winfrey, the rapper Common are the two best known other than Senator Obama. To see a man's thirty year career in ministry be battered by a few youtube clips just really dismays me. Wright is a former Marine, a scholar of immense accomplishment, a man of the church. Taking out of context of even a particular sermon, but taking out of context a man's entire career a few snippets for youtube and judging him on that - very sad. Obama's speech was brilliant, and what we need of a political leader. He distanced from Wright as he needs to for reasons of the body politic, and has spoken eloquently on the reality of race in this country. I love him all the more for that. And I have admired Barack Obama for a long time - I began following his career in 1996. I put the Obama bumper sticker on the jeep in early 2007. I have such hopes for the good an Obama presidency will bring this nation. I also take a stand with my colleague Jeremiah Wright. Those who want to know more about Wright and Trinity UCC might look at ucc.org and you can also there find Obama's speech to General Synod 26 of the UCC, in Hartford last July, I was there and it was a wonderful speech. Jeremiah Wright is a charming man who always surprises when he preaches. The last time I heard him preach, April 2007, he began by singing Barbra Streisand's "The Way we Were." Anyone who has struggled with a congregation wanting to never change and to only live in the past, think about the words, how apt they were - he has a great voice by the way and had us all singing along. For those who see things in other perspectives, I pray that I may be loving and kind to you. There is some anger out in the church world - the African American pastoral community is none too pleased these days with the judgment that white Americans have made on what blacks can and cannot say in church, especially when things are taken out of context and not taken into account with the whole of the message which can not be conveyed in 5 minute youtube clips. Clergy in the UCC are a bit disturbed that one of our own is being attacked - for the same reasons. The UCC has been under much attack lately, our stance on the war in Iraq and other matters, some of long standing, leave us as America's oldest church body in our congregationalist roots, but not the most popular with the powers that be. The fact that UCC member Barack Obama spoke to the UCC General Synod has moved conservative forces to file IRS accusations against us; one of our own cannot speak at a church meeting? There is something out there called the Institute for Religion and Democracy that has long targeted the UCC and I find it not surprizing that just certain youtube clips have "suddenly" appeared. These are my overlong thoughts. I retire to pray for a spirit of love and peace as we approach the anniversary of the war. Forgive me all that I have said and done that has been been offered or received in such a spirit of peace. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:39:17 -0400 From: David Eoll Subject: Re: Previous elections (SJC at the end) > From: Monika Bogdanowicz > Subject: NJC Previous elections > > I supported Kerry although I couldn't vote > I remember the Bush-Gore showdown back when I was in high school. I > was in 10th or 11th grade I'm puzzled, Monika, that you were in high school in 2000, yet were still unable to vote in 2004. Did you skip some grades? > I can't remember a thing about Big Bush's Presidency as I was just too little to even care then or think about anything political! I clearly remember Papa Bush, who in some ways I think was the Cheney of the Reagan administration. That time corresponds to probably my most politically active period (I was at UMass-Amherst). The Bush family is absolutely toxic. I remember when Baby Bush first started to appear on the radar. The GOP and the press were talking up his candidacy as early as 1998. And I remember thinking, "OhMFG. He has a son?!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Night of the Return of the Son of Evil Bush Part II. Yikes. Of course, it actually ended up being far worse than I could've possibly imagined. I actually miss Papa Bush now, and would gladly accept him back in the White House if it meant getting rid of Junior. I remember Hunter Thompson wrote before the 2004 election that he would gladly vote for Richard Nixon rather than see Bush win reelection. And if you've read any Thompson, you'd know that he thought that Nixon was a fascist pig. Bush. Worst. President. Ever. > Anyhow, after that ramble, I come to my question. It seems that the > Democratic Party is very divided in this race for the White House. In > fact it seems even some Republicans are frustrated in McCain as their > candidate. The whole country is divided, inspired, and a bit angry. > I hope, we can only hope, the Dem Party reunites in the end. But...my > question is this....is this division/anger common in elections or > something more particular to this election? I ask some of you folks > who know and remember the elections in the past. There is quite a bit > of anger targeted towards the opposing candidate on both sides (both > Hillary and Obama). Is this common or this election peculiar that > way? Its been quite awhile since there was a nominating contest this closely contested, for either party. The 1984 Democratic Primary was close between Mondale and Hart, as was the 1976 Republican Primary between Ford and Reagan. Although I remember both elections (we actually watched some of the GOP convention in my 4th grade class) I was too young to really care or pay much attention to relative levels of spite or anger. Jesse Jackson was a serious challenger to Dukakis in 1988, too, but Dukakis had a comfortable lead for most of the primary. I think the award for the scrappiest Democratic Primary has to go to the honest-to-goodness people-powered McGovern campaign. He was a true rock-the-boat anti-establishment candidate, and the contest went all the way to the convention. I think list-member Patti said she was a supporter of his campaign, and could probably tell you about the relative level of nastiness, or whatever. I know that some of McGovern's opponents used the slogan Acid, Amnesty, and Abortion against McGovern. Meaning that he was the candidate of hippies, feminists, and draft-dodgers. My view of that campaign is almost totally through the prism of Hunter Thompson's book about it, and like all HST's books, it was never meant to be objective. :) But if you want sheer acrimony that would make this year's primary look like a love-in, 1968 is the winner. The modern system of using primary elections to choose a nominee began in 1972. Before that, the primary season consisted of elections in a dozen or so states that were used mainly to gauge the various candidates' relative viability. Most states sent a slate of delegates to the national convention that were chosen by the various state parties' power-brokers. No popular elections were involved. None of us little people got to vote in those states. The nominee was chosen at the national convention by "horse-trading". Imagine it being like one of the state caucuses you've been reading about, but on a national level. Basically, all the delegates would make deals and alliances until a majority fell in behind one candidate. In 1968, the will of the people was clearly behind either anti-war candidate Eugene McCarthy and/or Bobby Kennedy. Bobby was, of course, murdered immediately after winning the California primary. While McCarthy and Kennedy had been out winning people's votes in the states which held elections, Vice President Hubert Humphrey had been out wooing the unelected delegates, mentioned above, in the majority of states that had no elections. Humphrey did not win a single primary, and if I'm not mistaken, didn't even run in most or all of them. Yet he had the most delegates (unelected) going into the convention. Even though McCarthy had the most popular support among the surviving candidates, the Democratic Party anointed pro-Vietnam War Humphrey in the convention in Chicago. Needless to say, there were people that were not happy about that. Many of them went to Chicago to register their displeasure with having absolutely no control over the selection of their nominee for president. And I'm sure there are documentaries you can watch on A&E, Monika, in which you will see thousands of people about your age getting the piss beaten out of them on national television by the Chicago Police Department. Oh, and Richard Daley, the Mayor of Chicago? He was a major Humphrey supporter. Anger? Nastiness? Yeah, it'll be hard to top that one. I've heard that an anti-war demonstration is being organized for the Democratic convention in Denver this summer. And one of the slogans being floated by the organizers is Recreate 68. ??????????!!!!!!!!!! Um... somebody should remind these clowns that NIXON WON IN 1968. And that the war went on for five more years. Why on earth would anybody want to recreate that? McCain has said he'd be fine with us being in Iraq for 100 years. Still want to recreate 68? Since this is a Joni list, and I mouth off way too much about politics, I'll take this opportunity to steer the topic back to Joni, albeit indirectly. A great song about Chicago 1968 is Chicago (We Can Change the World) by Graham Nash on his first solo album Songs For Beginners. Its a fantastic record. I highly recommend it to even casual fans of CSN. The opening track is absolutely killer: Military Madness. The album has several very poignant songs on it about his painful breakup with Joni. Very sweet. One of the songs, Simple Man, I believe he performed live for the first time with Joni in the audience. Anyone know anything about this? End the F***ing War, David NP: Graham Nash, Songs For Beginners. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 02:23:39 -0400 From: David Eoll Subject: Re: "which states" NJC > From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" > Subject: RE: NJC Previous elections > > On talk radio, there's a lot of talk about *which* states Obama won. If > I understand the talk correctly, he won lots of delegates in states which > will deliver a Republican win in November. It sounds like, err... > bluster to me. Maybe this line of thought came from Clinton's campaign, > to imply Obama can't win in November. I haven't heard Clinton herself say this but two of her top advisors, Harold Ickes and Mark Penn, have been making statements to the effect that because Obama hasn't won certain states in the primary (e.g. California) that are must-wins for the Democratic candidate in the fall, he won't be able to win those states in the fall. Its crap and they know it. They're trying to win an election and they're going to say whatever they can to cast doubt on their opponent. They're comparing apples to oranges. How one fares against fellow Democrat doesn't have a damn thing to do with how one will fare against a Republican in a general election. Ickes and Penn are professional political operatives, so they know this, but they're saying it knowing most people who aren't politics nerds (like moi) will be swayed by it and think Obama is unelectable. It is bluster. In the particular case of California, I don't think either candidate will have any trouble dispatching McSame in the general election. Both sides have been back and forth on this topic, but the fact is that this is a very close election, and I have no idea who's going to win it, though by most metrics (delegate count being the most important) Obama is enough ahead that Clinton will have a tough time getting the nomination. But both sides clearly have ALOT of support. That's a good thing as long as the supporters of the candidate that loses (and one IS going to lose) don't take their ball and go home. We need to pull together in the end and remember who the real enemy is. Like I've said, I don't really have a horse in this race, since my state already had its election and I voted for someone else entirely. I won't be too upset with either candidate winning the nomination as long as they beat McSame in the general. Having said that, I would like to echo Vince's dismay at the heat getting turned up in a couple of recent posts about the campaigns. It must be some of that anger that Monika warned us about. Lets try to remember why we are here on this list and keep the discussions amicable. I know I'm a relative newcomer and maybe its not my place to say, but ... I'm just saying: let's keep it friendly or drop the political discussions altogether. There are scads of other forums on the Internet for that kind of thing. Peace (End the War), David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 02:31:33 -0400 From: David Eoll Subject: Re: 80s music njc > From: > Subject: 80s music njc > > Steve Winwood I think Steve is remarkably talented, as a singer and on multiple instruments including keyboards and electric guitar. He did a lot in the 60s with Spencer Davis (when he was 15!) and Traffic and Blind Faith. And that's what I mainly think of, and his awesome work on Hendrix's Electric Ladyland. But he made a big comeback with Arc of the Diver in 1980. Thats a great record. In fact, it was such a huge comeback that many people think of him primarily as an 80s artist and are unaware of his copious earlier work. The Highlife album was alright, but Higher Love got waaaaay overplayed. > Also, jazz in general was really evolving into interesting new > dimensions during the 80s. Yup. Gawd, I just love music, don't y'all? *sigh* Peace (end the war), David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:56:39 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: NJC Previous elections Hi Laura, I think there is a lot of very valid disgust among many people regarding the democrats & how they've rolled over for bush too many times- hillary happens to be one of those who has done so. Love, Kate >Hi Kate, I agree, the anger towards Hillary comes from places that don't belong to her. Unfortunately, the Obama campaign is taking advantage of it by painting Hillary in with the group that IS responsible... namely those who have been running Washington for about the past 8 years. Love, Laura< ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #611 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------