From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2007 #608 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Website: http://jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, March 17 2008 Volume 2007 : Number 608 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC Previous elections [missblux@googlemail.com] Re: defending Madonna, SJC [Deb Messling ] Re: NJC Previous elections [Bob Muller ] Re: Madonna and the 80s NJC [Bob Muller ] Re: Leonard Cohen does resemble Madonna... NJC [Em ] judy collins on etown radio right now [Mags ] etown site NJC [Mags ] Re: Madonna and the 80s NJC [David Eoll ] Re: Madonna and the 80s NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] SJC re: Defending Madonna [Monika Bogdanowicz ] Re: NJC Previous elections [Monika Bogdanowicz ] NJC Previous elections ["Kate Bennett" ] hey, anyone have a copy of digest #605 NJC [David Eoll ] RE: Madonna and the 80s NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] njc, Peace Vigils on Wednesday [Patti Parlette ] Re: talk about the weather NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: talk about the weather NJC [Catherine McKay ] Leonard Cohen does resemble Madonna... ["Mark L. Levinson" ] Joni in Paris 83 ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: talk about the weather NJC [waytoblue@comcast.net] Re: talk about the weather NJC [Monika Bogdanowicz ] RE: talk about the weather NJC ["hell" ] FW: Herbie Hancock Announcement: Join Herbie For A Live Concert Taping ["] 80s music njc [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:46:01 +0100 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: NJC Previous elections From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: NJC Previous elections [...] The whole country is divided, inspired, and a bit angry. I hope, we can only hope, the Dem Party reunites in the end. But...my question is this....is this division/anger common in elections or something more particular to this election? [...] There is quite a bit of anger targeted towards the opposing candidate on both sides (both Hillary and Obama). Bene: Here is my question: From here, it looks as if Obamas strength is precisely that he is not angry, and that he unites rather than divides, and that at a time when the nation has been angry and divided. I thought his appeal was that he makes people feel hopeful and optimistic and feeling that the US is one nation that can pull together? I hate to use the term healer, but it seems to me that that is the effect he has. Also, isn't it so that his campaign has been more sober than anything the US has seen for a long time? Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 08:22:46 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: defending Madonna, SJC She makes way better dance music than Joni does, and there's a place for that. At 08:54 PM 3/15/2008, you wrote: >joni's music is smarter and higher in quality than madonna's. >but, there is something that madonna does better than joni. >you know that something, don't you? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- dlmessling@rcn.com http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:30:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: NJC Previous elections It's not typical, Monika - of course there's always a lot of quibbling between candidates when things kick off and they start the primaries, but in my recollection in the past the emerging and eventual nominee has become known early on and the whole thing seems pre-arranged. This time around it's been very unpredictable, and it could be that the frustration around that is feeding the anger. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing, and I do think that once the Democrats decide on the better candidate, everyone will get behind him. It's just how politics is played sometimes. Bob NP: Maxwell, "Now/At The Party" ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:40:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Madonna and the 80s NJC MTV's influence on the music business in the decade can't be overestimated. It re-framed music such that the visual was more important than the music itself. I had already started going "left of the dial" by the end of the 70's, and the over-commercialized 80's pushed me all the way out of the mainstream. The good news was that there was lots of great music being MADE, it just wasn't being PLAYED. Or most of it, anway...it wasn't hard to hear REM & U2, but other deserving artists like XTC, The Replacements, The Cure, Let's Active among many others didn't get a fair shake. Bob NP: Kate McGarry, "Chelsea Morning" ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 08:12:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Leonard Cohen does resemble Madonna... NJC I think just for us, L.C. and Madonna should do a duet...and have a smash hit with it. It could be called "Tienen que ver el culo". :P Em << wrote: > I've read strange things in these digest before, but... comparing > Leonard > Cohen with Madonna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Some of you may have choosen the wrong pills for the few last days. > In the original words of a talented countryman of mine: "?Qui tiene > que ver > el culo con la timpera?" > > Saludos, > Miguel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:02:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Mags Subject: judy collins on etown radio right now i dont know what the call numbers are wherever you are, but judy collins is on the show today...right now in fact. it's a fantastic show and reminds me of the vast sea of talent in america. mags. - --------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:04:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mags Subject: etown site NJC http://www.etown.org/ shiza, i think i forgot to add njc on my last post. anyhoozle, here's the site, have a listen, judy collins is singing right now...i love this station... mags. - --------------------------------- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:18:53 -0400 From: David Eoll Subject: Re: Madonna and the 80s NJC Bob Muller wrote: > MTV's influence on the music business in the decade can't be overestimated. It re-framed music such that the visual was more important than the music itself. From wiki: Appropriately, the first music video shown on MTV was "Video Killed the Radio Star" by The Buggles. How prophetic. > > The good news was that there was lots of great music being MADE, it just wasn't being PLAYED. Or most of it, anway...it wasn't hard to hear REM & U2, but other deserving artists like XTC, The Replacements, The Cure, Let's Active among many others didn't get a fair shake. *gasp* How could I have forgotten REM? Murmur is one of the greatest debut albums, IMHO. But, it didn't really get airplay, except for Radio Free Europe, to a certain extent. Peace, David Eoll ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:26:00 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Madonna and the 80s NJC Aside from those mentioned, off the top of my head- Shawn Colvin, Bonnie Raitt, Steve Winwood, Peter Gabriel, Police, Toni Childs, Emmylou Harris were all creating great work during the 80's. And Mark Knopfler, aside from his band, was doing sound tracks. So much great music during that time, just not always discovered via commercial radio. Kate www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:34:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: SJC re: Defending Madonna So I'm still curious. Rian, what is the one thing you were referring to that Madonna does better than Joni? -M - --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:33:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: NJC Previous elections Oh I wasn't saying that he was angry himself. He seems alright. I do think he does inspire some people and unites THEM. However, it seems that some want their candidate or nobody else, lashing out with anger at anything opposing to their candidate or his/her views. But not everyone is an Obama supporter. I think he does unite his supporters but there are plenty of people on the other side of the Democratic line, supporting Hillary, just as there are some who support McCain and unfortunately there are those who passionaltely don't support anyone or supported someone who is out of the race. There is still a division in the party and in the country from what I see. There is some anger in those who don't want any of these candidates or anger in Obama supporters against Hillary or in Hillary supporters against Obama or in Republicans against Obama and Hillary or in Republicans at their own party who don't like McCain but feel they are being forced to support him. I've seen and heard it all now. And when I say anger I don't just mean passionate support for their candidate...I mean illogical, frustrated anger... -M missblux@googlemail.com wrote: Bene: Here is my question: From here, it looks as if Obamas strength is precisely that he is not angry, and that he unites rather than divides, and that at a time when the nation has been angry and divided. I thought his appeal was that he makes people feel hopeful and optimistic and feeling that the US is one nation that can pull together? I hate to use the term healer, but it seems to me that that is the effect he has. Also, isn't it so that his campaign has been more sober than anything the US has seen for a long time? Bene - --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:38:59 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC Previous elections This primary is unique in that we have two relatively similar & very strong viable candidates. I am not paying attention to the campaign details because I hate the process of campaigning as it usually brings out the worst in human nature. I watched some of the debates but I haven't seen any of the ads, either because they are not bringing them here to CA or I don't watch TV enough. I'm thinking this one is pretty mild compared to the Rep vs Dem campaigns I've witnessed in the past. >I ask some of you folks who know and remember the elections in the past. There is quite a bit of anger targeted towards the opposing candidate on both sides (both Hillary and Obama). Is this common or this election peculiar that way?< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:42:58 -0400 From: David Eoll Subject: hey, anyone have a copy of digest #605 NJC I sent a similar request out last night, but it had an admin word in the subject, so I think the list server snagged it. I don't seem to have received digest #605, so if any of you digest subscribers out there have a saved copy, please forward it to deoll@ieee.org. Thanks a bunch. Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:09:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Madonna and the 80s NJC disclaimer: just my opinion: I think the Police's real good stuff was pre-80's (IMHO)...sort of right on the cusp...'78,'79...lots of great stuff right then just pre-80's - thinking of Joe Jackson's rock stuff and Elvis Costello too. :) Police discography: 1978, Outlandos d'Amour 1979, Reggatta De Blanc 1980, Zenyatta Mondatta 1981, Ghost In The Machine 1983, Synchronicity 1986, Every Breath You Take (The Singles) to me the 2nd and 3rd were masterpieces, especially RDB And Ghost in the Machine was the last one from them that would ever engage the perhaps worn out clutch plates in my head. After that I thought they bit. And I'd just as soon have a molar surgically extracted as see them in concert now. OK where's that lightning bolt, lol....I know ones gonna smite me soon.... ;) Em - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > Aside from those mentioned, off the top of my head- Shawn Colvin, > Bonnie > Raitt, Steve Winwood, Peter Gabriel, Police, Toni Childs, Emmylou > Harris > were all creating great work during the 80's. And Mark Knopfler, > aside from > his band, was doing sound tracks. So much great music during that > time, > just not always discovered via commercial radio ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:24:10 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Madonna and the 80s NJC I guess I was just catching up to them in the 80's. But that reminds me of another stellar 80's artist- Sting! >I think the Police's real good stuff was pre-80's (IMHO)...sort of right on the cusp...'78,'79...lots of great stuff right then just pre-80's - thinking of Joe Jackson's rock stuff and Elvis Costello too. :) Em< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:45:12 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: njc, Peace Vigils on Wednesday Dear Joniamigos: As you know, this Wednesday marks FIVE YEARS of war in Iraq. There are actions and vigils all over the world. Here are two links to help you find one near you. http://events.unitedforpeace.org/5yearstoomany and http://pol.moveon.org/event/events/index.html?rc=homepage&action_id=112 On the latter, enter zipcode 06250 to see mine. War is over if you want it. Power to the people! Love & Peace, Patti P., racing away to the fine white lines of the free freeway to see k.d. lang....Hallelujah! _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail.-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:40:16 -0400 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: talk about the weather NJC about 85 and very sunny and breeezy in St. James Barbados West Indies. It's off the see the sunset and a lovely Gordons on ice with an olive for me. Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Mar 15, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Jerry Notaro wrote: Gorgeous and 81 degrees here in St. Petersburg, Florida. Jerry, who remembers 30 nasty Buffalo winters all too well ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:00:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: talk about the weather NJC - --- Michael Paz wrote: > about 85 and very sunny and breeezy in St. James > Barbados West Indies. > It's off the see the sunset and a lovely Gordons on > ice with an olive > for me. > > Paz > That's way the hell too hot - ha ha ha ha ha! I think it was 2 today. Celsius, that is. But SUNNY!!! We watched the St Patrick's Day parade. It's a good thing they were all wearing those Aran sweaters, or they'd have frozen their leprechauns off! Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:01:28 +0200 From: "Mark L. Levinson" Subject: Leonard Cohen does resemble Madonna... Coleen wrote: > even my Texan husband thinks that album is brilliant - > and he previously claimed to hate Leonard Cohen! I think your husband's experience demonstrates my point: because the melodies themselves aren't brilliant, they need the help of well-thought-out arrangements, good production, and in this case-- for your husband-- even a different singer. - ------------------------------------------------ Mark L. Levinson - nosnivel@netvision.net.il - ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:16:55 +0100 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: NJC Previous elections Well yes, it is true that despite his uniting effect he does seem to split the democratic party. At least if he wins noone's going to say that it was a fantasy election and that he didn't have to work hard for the votes. Obama doesn't seem dum or naive to me at all, and if on top of that he can win by appealing to people's hope and goodness rather than to their anger and fear which normally is what helps politicians win the crowds over, then I'm beginning to feel optimistic too! We don't have a president here so things are very different. I can see how these aggressive campaigns can drive people a bit crazy, because they really seem to appeal very strongly to people's emotions, and if you are a supporter it must feel wonderful to be part of something that could potentially change history.... until you lose. Anyway, enough from me, I'm too ignorant for this discussion! Bene On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Monika Bogdanowicz wrote: > Oh I wasn't saying that he was angry himself. He seems alright. I do > think he does inspire some people and unites THEM. However, it seems that > some want their candidate or nobody else, lashing out with anger at anything > opposing to their candidate or his/her views. But not everyone is an Obama > supporter. I think he does unite his supporters but there are plenty of > people on the other side of the Democratic line, supporting Hillary, just as > there are some who support McCain and unfortunately there are those who > passionaltely don't support anyone or supported someone who is out of the > race. There is still a division in the party and in the country from what I > see. There is some anger in those who don't want any of these candidates or > anger in Obama supporters against Hillary or in Hillary supporters against > Obama or in Republicans against Obama and Hillary or in Republicans at their > own party who don't like McCain but feel they are being forced to support > him. I've seen and heard it all now. And when I say anger I don't just > mean passionate support for their candidate...I mean illogical, frustrated > anger... > -M > > missblux@googlemail.com wrote: > > > Bene: > Here is my question: From here, it looks as if Obamas strength is > precisely that he is not angry, and that he unites rather than > divides, and that at a time when the nation has been angry and > divided. I thought his appeal was that he makes people feel hopeful > and optimistic and feeling that the US is one nation that can pull > together? I hate to use the term healer, but it seems to me that that > is the effect he has. > > Also, isn't it so that his campaign has been more sober than anything > the US has seen for a long time? > > Bene > > > > ________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:53:23 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: defending Madonna, SJC From: "rian afriadi" > ah come on. > madonna's not that bad! > her key records that make her deserve this hall of fame induction: (IMO) > 1. Like A Prayer > 2. Immacullate Collection > 3. True Blue > 4. Ray of Light > 5. Music > 6. Confessions on A Dance Floor. > but, there is something that madonna does better than joni. > you know that something, don't you? Yes...expose her private parts. I never meant to imply that Madonna was bad, just that she is not really rock and roll, at least in terms of what it means to me. I like a bunch of her songs; Live To Tell, Vogue, This Used To Be My Playground, even Like A Virgin and the Sondheim stuff on Dick Tracy. They are great, enjoyable pop records. But left to her own devices, give her a guitar, a studio, whatever she needs, she could never make those records. They are closer to The Monkees than they are to The Who. And if you listen to most of her hits closely, you can hear that they put a 'ghost' singer behind her because she simply was not a good singer. This was before the Antares pitch corrector. (See: Cher) Maybe by Evita she learned to sing better. And of course she rarely sang in concert, lip-syncing so she could do the choreography. I don't know if she has written a song by herself-maybe she has, but I think the hits have all been collaborations. None of which is to say that she is not a great entertainer. But to me, she is just not rock and roll. But I could be wrong. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:44:07 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Joni in Paris 83 Dear All, A few years ago i received the two 1983 Joni concerts from Bob Muller. Some of you may have them too. A couple of months ago I posted that the one listed as Olympia was in reality Theatre des Champs Elysees. Now, I had a long conversation with the actual taper of the Casino de Paris, his name is Uli Teute and some time in the future he will write on Dime his 17 page account of a Joni encounter in Paris. In the meantime, I am pleased to finally set the record straight on some mislabelling: Theatre des Champs Elysees: the correct date is April 30, 1983. Circulating copies have poor sound. (This was labelled Casino on Bob's cds) Uli says it's missing the 1st song too. Casino de Paris: May 1st, 1983, nicer sound but Uli's recording is missing the first 3 songs so it's easy to tell both concerts apart. (labelled Olympia on Bob's cds) Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:13:10 +0000 From: waytoblue@comcast.net Subject: Re: talk about the weather NJC Sounds beautiful....it's actually very sunny and nice today in Atlanta. There's still some downed trees and street lights twisted beyond recognition downtown and I found out also that the Rialto stage (where PHJB performed in atl) is completely ruined. A giant fan on the roof was ripped out of its place by the tornado and tore through the plate metal ceiling, allowing tons of water to pour on the stage...no one even knew about it till 8 hours later. We're actually doing our broadway revue today in the recital hall and the first show went really well. I'm singing the part of the phantom in Angel of Music/Point of No Return. We have one more show tonight at 8. Drink a martini for me and say hi to Walter! best, Victor -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Michael Paz > about 85 and very sunny and breeezy in St. James Barbados West Indies. > It's off the see the sunset and a lovely Gordons on ice with an olive > for me. > > Paz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:02:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: talk about the weather NJC Well today it was about 33 degrees or so. Luckily it had been in the 40's the last couple of days so some, but not all, of that white crap melted. The more green the better. Tomorrow, for St. Patrick's Day, it's going to be about 44 here. -M - --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:38:36 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: RE: talk about the weather NJC Mags wrote (in a refreshing non-political post!): > glad to see that the spring equinox is this coming > Thursday...hopeful that the warmth of the sun follows soon. > Today, it is -12C , going down to -16C. Which is a far cry better > than it has been in weeks. > > Supposedly, this has been a return to the "normal" climes of > winter. Hmmmm. It's 22C (71F) here today, 24C (75F) yesterday. Still reasonably warm for this time of year, but it's been a strange summer for us. Very little rain (drought conditions in many areas of the country) but it hasn't been blazingly hot. My partner and I have been for a swim at the beach only once this summer - last summer we were down there most evenings from January until April. And since we started conserving our tank water back in November (pretty radically too) we didn't have to buy water, unlike most other properties in the area. The warm weather is meant to continue for a month or so, which is nice (and means the fishing will be good for a while too!), but I hope we don't follow the northern hemisphere with a harsh, cold winter.... Happy St. Paddy's Day to all! Hell - who is in the "good books" at home for surprising her partner with Guiness at breakfast this morning, although it wasn't consumed "for" breakfast ;o) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:53:44 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: FW: Herbie Hancock Announcement: Join Herbie For A Live Concert Taping I just received this from the Herbie Hancock mailing list, and thought I should forward it ASAP... A great opportunity for anyone in SoCal able to attend, and this might even have Joni-content, if she makes a surprise guest appearance! Be in quick - limited to the first 200 fans to email them back! Hell - -----Original Message----- From: Herbie Hancock Webmaster [mailto:newslist@herbiehancock.com] Sent: Monday, 17 March 2008 4:32 p.m. To: hell@ihug.co.nz Subject: Herbie Hancock Announcement: Join Herbie For A Live Concert Taping Would you like to be part of Herbie's Nissan Live Sets Taping? Attention Southern California Herbie Hancock fans!! Want to be a part of an exclusive major internet event with Herbie Hancock? Yahoo! Music and Verve Records want you to join us when Herbie Hancock takes the stage for Nissan Live Sets in West Los Angeles, CA. March 20, 2008 7 pm (subject to change, you need to arrive two hours before) Location: West Los Angeles The first 200 fans to email us at Invite@YahooLiveSets.com will get in the doors for this exclusive taping. Plus you get to bring a friend. Just email us your name and your location, and we will contact you if you are chosen to attend. PLEASE DO NOT SEND MULTIPLE EMAILS You must be at least 13 years old to attend. Fans under 18 must be accompanied by an adult. You must provide your own transportation and accommodations (if necessary). This is a once-in-a-lifetime experience! This invitation is not transferable, without the express permission of Yahoo!. Yahoo! reserves the right to rescind any invitation, at any time, in its sole discretion. - -- To unsubscribe from this list visit http://www.herbiehancock.com/newsletter/lt.php?id=Mk8EXgEJVVVLUlUeXwdWAA%3D% 3D To update your preferences visit http://www.herbiehancock.com/newsletter/lt.php?id=Mk8EXgEJVVZLUlUeXwdWAA%3D% 3D - -- Powered by PHPlist, www.phplist.com -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:02:01 -0700 From: Subject: 80s music njc I remember feeling a lot in the wasteland musically in the 80s but also remember there were some high points and those were very good. Live music in L.A. at the time was mostly either post punk or new wave and it was real hard for me to connect with it (though I did try). Madonna and the overplaying of Phil Collins left me feeling somewhat bereft at times but here's my list of what got me through: Joe Jackson Elvis Costello Tom Petty The Cure Level 42 Wang Chung Ambrosia Bruce Hornsby Julian Lennon Steve Winwood U2 Romantics The Smithereens Dan Fogelberg (his very best work, IMO) Bobby Caldwell (his very best work, IMO) Also, jazz in general was really evolving into interesting new dimensions during the 80s. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2007 #608 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe -------